High Wall Rebore

[Toolmaker TN]

I've got a Win High Wall, made in 1885, that I'm going to be sending off to rebore soon. The original chambering is 38-55, but the bore is in pretty sorry shape. I've seen sewer pipes that looked better....
It's been sitting in the back of the safe for 15 years, and the time has come to get it back up and shooting again. Will have to make a new mainspring and do some badly needed stock repairs.
I can't make up my mind as to caliber though, so thought I'd get some opinions. So far I've been considering 40-70SS, 45-70, 50-70 for a rebore. Another possibility might be a re-line to back to 38-55. Or have considered 30-40 as well, as that was an original chambering, although this one is a little too early for that.
Any ideas?

[Tatume]

If it was me, I would call JES and ask his recommendation.

[country gent]

I would talk to the person doing the reline and have the barrels contour dimensions handy when doing this. The liners dia and the outside dimensions will affect what can be done also. I would consider relining to 38-55 more so on an original especially if an early version. Since this retains the original barrel and markings.

[Nobade]

Or keep the original barrel in a closet and make a new one for it so you can go shoot. Put the old one back on if you want to sell it some day.

[Toolmaker TN]

If it was me, I would call JES and ask his recommendation.

I've talked to him, any of them would work, just have to make up my mind. Whatever I go with, he will be doing the rebore. He's done a couple for me, and the quality of his work is just awesome.

[Toolmaker TN]

I would talk to the person doing the reline and have the barrels contour dimensions handy when doing this. The liners dia and the outside dimensions will affect what can be done also. I would consider relining to 38-55 more so on an original especially if an early version. Since this retains the original barrel and markings.

Yes, that's certainly a consideration. Fortunately, the barrel is large enough that pretty much any liner would work. If I do a relining, I'll be doing that myself. I've considered going with 38-55, makes a lot of sense. You're right, of course, the barrel markings would stay original.

[Toolmaker TN]

Or keep the original barrel in a closet and make a new one for it so you can go shoot. Put the old one back on if you want to sell it some day.

That's an option that I hadn't considered, and a good one. New barrel would solve several problems, and modern steel as well. Not that I'm going to turn this into a varmint rifle, just keep it shooting. Thinking along the lines of BPCR, hunting, PP bullets.
Selling it really doesn't even factor in, it's not going to get away from me. It was one of those deals where I was in the right price at the right time to buy a couple of old rifles that I could never have afforded otherwise. Wish I could've bought all that were there, but ran out of cash or they were a little higher than I could justify at the time. I got the High Wall, an RB, and a Rem Hepburn, all of which I'd dreamed of for years.
I had to let a 50-70 Sharps percussion conversion, a RB in 25-20SS, and Low Wall musket go to someone else. But the one that really hurt was an Alexander Henry in 450 BPE. Hurts every time I think about it actually.

[TCLouis]

40-65?
OR
back to 38-55

[Marlin356]

405 Winchester. Excellent with cast and all components are available.

[Toolmaker TN]

405 Winchester. Excellent with cast and all components are available.

Now that's one I hadn't considered. Close to 40-70SS, with everything ready to go.

[Toolmaker TN]

40-65?
OR
back to 38-55

This is why I like this site so much. Hadn't thought of 40-65. Easy to load, and everything available. I do have a couple 40 cal. molds that have never been used.

[Good Cheer]

I've been wanting to make a .41 Mag that way.[smilie=w:


Adding: But I'm about ready to give up and have a muzzleloader barrel to shoot the same molds.

[marlinman93]

I'd second the .40-65, but only if the existing bore isn't so bad that it would not clean up to be a .40-65 caliber. If it wont clean up then I'd consider going back to .38-55 caliber. A favorite of mine, and one of the great old calibers.

[Wayne Smith]

If the barrel is marked for caliber I'd keep it true to the barrel markings. You are just the current custodian of this fine rifle.

[Toolmaker TN]

I've been wanting to make a .41 Mag that way.[smilie=w:


Adding: But I'm about ready to give up and have a muzzleloader barrel to shoot the same molds.

I understand the feeling. I bought the 40 cal molds around 15 years ago now, and still don't have anything to shoot them in.....

[Toolmaker TN]

I'd second the .40-65, but only if the existing bore isn't so bad that it would not clean up to be a .40-65 caliber. If it wont clean up then I'd consider going back to .38-55 caliber. A favorite of mine, and one of the great old calibers.

Bore might actually be good enough to go to 40. But you're right, 38-55 is a really great old round. I've got a 375 win Marlin, that I load to HS 38-55 levels for everything with cast. There's a reason why the 38-55 was so popular, it worked, and it still does.

[Toolmaker TN]

If the barrel is marked for caliber I'd keep it true to the barrel markings. You are just the current custodian of this fine rifle.

Very true, I've pretty much made up my mind that if I'm going to use the original barrel, I'll reline it. If I replace it, I'm going to keep the original, just to have it.

[Hiwall55]

If you go with a liner, go with a faster twist. works on 38/55 and 40/65. If it was mine I would go with a 14 or 15 twist TJ liner in 38/55 caliber. and the ejector would work.

[Toolmaker TN]

If you go with a liner, go with a faster twist. works on 38/55 and 40/65. If it was mine I would go with a 14 or 15 twist TJ liner in 38/55 caliber. and the ejector would work.

That's a good point on the ejector, everything would be as original as I could make it. I don't want to alter anything any more than I have to, and want to keep the original parts as much as possible. If I did rebarrel to a different cartridge, I would make a new extractor and keep the old one. As was stated earlier, I'm just the caretaker of this wonderful old rifle. Thought of the faster twist barrel has some appeal certainly. Turns the old round into a whole new cartridge with a faster twist for heavier slugs. I'm not sure if I've ever used a TJ liner or not, but have heard excellent things about them over the years.

[marlinman93]

MVA sells all the High Wall parts you'd need new. So changing calibers isn't an issue and you could simply set your extractor aside with the original barrel if rebarreling.

[Toolmaker TN]

MVA sells all the High Wall parts you'd need new. So changing calibers isn't an issue and you could simply set your extractor aside with the original barrel if rebarreling.

I wasn't aware of MVA having High Wall parts. Thank you.

[marlinman93]

Yes MVA is offering complete finished receivers, plus all parts for a High Wall. I've purchased parts from them and both price and workmanship are great!

http://montanavintagearms.com/winchester-parts/

[Traffer]

I would second the motion to make a whole new barrel and put the old one in the closet. There could very well be a day when the modification of such a dear antique would destroy much of it's value. I wouldn't think a new barrel would cost much more than a rebore.

[Toolmaker TN]

Yes MVA is offering complete finished receivers, plus all parts for a High Wall. I've purchased parts from them and both price and workmanship are great!

http://montanavintagearms.com/winchester-parts/

Awesome, thank you. That sight is going to be of help in some future projects.

[Toolmaker TN]

I would second the motion to make a whole new barrel and put the old one in the closet. There could very well be a day when the modification of such a dear antique would destroy much of it's value. I wouldn't think a new barrel would cost much more than a rebore.

I couldn't agree more, and that day has been here for years now. I consider it an unpardonable sin to ever modify any old gun that's in original condition. Lightly and gently cleaning and restoration is of course acceptable. However, guns that have already been altered, or whose condition has limited any collector value, are fair game, IMO. I would never strip down an original Martini Henry or Cadet either, although how many were done in the past? I've built several rifles on Martini actions I've found over the years, that had been stripped down.
This High Wall has seen a lot of use, and a fair bit of abuse, in it's 130 years of life. Of course, that's why I got it for the price I did. I'll try to post some pics. The stock has an old, poorly done repair at the wrist, there's a good amount of pitting on the barrel, the rear sight was missing, and the bore is done for. Mainspring is pretty well shot too, takes about 3 hammer falls on average to set off a primer. The action is as tight and sound as the day it was made, however. And the forend could be cleaned up pretty easy.
So with a new barrel, cleaning up the forend, repairing the butt stock, new mainspring, and maybe a new extractor, She should be ready to go for another 130 years.
Which would allow for new sights as well, or maybe a Malcolm scope. Put the original barrel and extractor in storage for the future.

[rbertalotto]

Absolutely Reline back to 38-55. Grea5 cartridge and the barrel markings remain true.

TJ Liners from track of the wolf are excellent. Check out my web site for a number of articles on saving these old guns by relining.

Www.rvbprecision.com

[Traffer]

I couldn't agree more, and that day has been here for years now. I consider it an unpardonable sin to ever modify any old gun that's in original condition. Lightly and gently cleaning and restoration is of course acceptable. However, guns that have already been altered, or whose condition has limited any collector value, are fair game, IMO. I would never strip down an original Martini Henry or Cadet either, although how many were done in the past? I've built several rifles on Martini actions I've found over the years, that had been stripped down.
This High Wall has seen a lot of use, and a fair bit of abuse, in it's 130 years of life. Of course, that's why I got it for the price I did. I'll try to post some pics. The stock has an old, poorly done repair at the wrist, there's a good amount of pitting on the barrel, the rear sight was missing, and the bore is done for. Mainspring is pretty well shot too, takes about 3 hammer falls on average to set off a primer. The action is as tight and sound as the day it was made, however. And the forend could be cleaned up pretty easy.
So with a new barrel, cleaning up the forend, repairing the butt stock, new mainspring, and maybe a new extractor, She should be ready to go for another 130 years.
Which would allow for new sights as well, or maybe a Malcolm scope. Put the original barrel and extractor in storage for the future.

When you get her done I would love to test it for you ... lol. Always wanted to try lobbing a 3 or 400 grain boolit 5-6 hundred yards. I mean who wouldn't after watching Quigley Down Under. (In my mind I even look like Tom Sellek)

[Toolmaker TN]

Absolutely Reline back to 38-55. Grea5 cartridge and the barrel markings remain true.

TJ Liners from track of the wolf are excellent. Check out my web site for a number of articles on saving these old guns by relining.

Www.rvbprecision.com

Nice work and great shop!!! Very impressive.
I've got access to a pretty complete shop. Manual lathe and mill, horizontal mill, surface grinder, tool and cutter grinder, CNC lathe, CNC mill, wire EDM. I'm set up for heat treating, carburizing, powder coating.
Wish I had time to do half the things on my roundtuit list, but life keeps getting in the way.....

[Toolmaker TN]

When you get her done I would love to test it for you ... lol. Always wanted to try lobbing a 3 or 400 grain boolit 5-6 hundred yards. I mean who wouldn't after watching Quigley Down Under. (In my mind I even look like Tom Sellek)

It is a lot of fun for sure.
You guys up there in WI really have it going on as far as ranges go. I spent 4 years mobilized at Ft. McCoy, 2008-2012. Shot high power matches at Racine. Shot at a 600 yard high power range in La Crosse. There was another up around Eau Claire. Not to mention Lodi, king of them all in the state. They shoot long range BP at Lodi, at least they did then.

[sharps4590]

For me it's always tough trying to decide what to do with an old rifle that has a sewer pipe for a bore. As with yourself I'm loathe to change anything but doggone it, you want it to shoot as well.

Purely my two cents worth; I like the idea of keeping the original barrel original and installing a new barrel and for that I'd go 40-70 Sharps Straight. Easier options are available, no doubt but, I have a 40-70 SS in Shiloh #1 Sporter and am very enamored with the cartridge. Next choice would be to re-line the original barrel back to its original 38-55, (if I read it right, that the barrel is so marked?).

Kinda sounds like my Jeffrey Rook rifle. The bore was....surely as bad as what you describe yours and had been re-chambered to 25-20 WCF sometime in the dim, distant past. I REALLY wanted to go back to the original 255 Jeffrey but that was simply cost prohibitive....soo...relined and re-chambered back to 25-20 WCF was what it got. Of course after the fact the thought occurred to my gunsmith and me that we could have short chambered the 25-20 WCF to 255 Jeffrey length and it would have been nearly correct except for the .257 groove diameter as compared to the .251 of the Jeffrey cartridge. Ah well...live and learn. Loaded to 255 Jeffrey ballistics it's a shooter now.

[Chill Wills]

The problem with the idea of putting on a new barrel and keeping the old one to reinstalling it later is, that will never happen. It sounds good but really just does not work out that way. The old barrel will never be put on. Later when the new owners find it after the old owner passes (or one hundred different stories) they will not understand, not savvy to the whys like you, and the barrel becomes parts.

If you care about keeping a rifle staying as original as possible, do nothing.
If you just have to shoot it, like me, and I would shoot it or I would not buy it, then get it relined to the same caliber. Simple.

If the whole rifle is a basket case, as many I have picked up, then it is the bases for its second life as a rebuilt rifle -new barrel and stock as needed, refinish and the whole works! What ever you want to do, because it is yours.

[Traffer]

It is a lot of fun for sure.
You guys up there in WI really have it going on as far as ranges go. I spent 4 years mobilized at Ft. McCoy, 2008-2012. Shot high power matches at Racine. Shot at a 600 yard high power range in La Crosse. There was another up around Eau Claire. Not to mention Lodi, king of them all in the state. They shoot long range BP at Lodi, at least they did then.

The western part of the state is great. More room and not many people. I live in Stevens Point. Central Wis. Only one range around here and it is only open 6 months and only on Sat and Sun and a couple other days near deer season. I can't see to shoot good anymore. I would have loved to get into the long range stuff when I was a youngster. Got my first deer at 365 yards with a M1917 and that wonderful peep sight. Another thing I would like to do is some old P14 shooting. Maybe even paper patch for the things. It would be fun to experiment with powder coated boolits for long range 303 British.

[Toolmaker TN]

For me it's always tough trying to decide what to do with an old rifle that has a sewer pipe for a bore. As with yourself I'm loathe to change anything but doggone it, you want it to shoot as well.

Purely my two cents worth; I like the idea of keeping the original barrel original and installing a new barrel and for that I'd go 40-70 Sharps Straight. Easier options are available, no doubt but, I have a 40-70 SS in Shiloh #1 Sporter and am very enamored with the cartridge. Next choice would be to re-line the original barrel back to its original 38-55, (if I read it right, that the barrel is so marked?).

Kinda sounds like my Jeffrey Rook rifle. The bore was....surely as bad as what you describe yours and had been re-chambered to 25-20 WCF sometime in the dim, distant past. I REALLY wanted to go back to the original 255 Jeffrey but that was simply cost prohibitive....soo...relined and re-chambered back to 25-20 WCF was what it got. Of course after the fact the thought occurred to my gunsmith and me that we could have short chambered the 25-20 WCF to 255 Jeffrey length and it would have been nearly correct except for the .257 groove diameter as compared to the .251 of the Jeffrey cartridge. Ah well...live and learn. Loaded to 255 Jeffrey ballistics it's a shooter now.

Your rook rifle falls right into my criteria. I wouldn't alter it if it was original, but if it's been altered in the past, then you can't alter it from original twice. I suppose you could put it back to original caliber, but then it would still be altered, wouldn't it? You really can't undo what's been done.
I'm leaning towards 40-70SS. From what I can gather, it's a fine old round, still is. What do you form yours from?
One big reason I'm leaning heavily that way is around 15 years ago I was at a gun show and came across several tables of dies and molds. The High Wall had been on my mind. When I was going through the pile, I found a set of RCBS dies in 40-70SS. Looked a little more and found a 40cal Lyman Snover mold. Walked away with both for a song, especially when I got home and discovered both were unused, still had the packing grease inside the dies and mold!!!

[Toolmaker TN]

The problem with the idea of putting on a new barrel and keeping the old one to reinstalling it later is, that will never happen. It sounds good but really just does not work out that way. The old barrel will never be put on. Later when the new owners find it after the old owner passes (or one hundred different stories) they will not understand, not savvy to the whys like you, and the barrel becomes parts.

If you care about keeping a rifle staying as original as possible, do nothing.
If you just have to shoot it, like me, and I would shoot it or I would not buy it, then get it relined to the same caliber. Simple.

If the whole rifle is a basket case, as many I have picked up, then it is the bases for its second life as a rebuilt rifle -new barrel and stock as needed, refinish and the whole works! What ever you want to do, because it is yours.

I agree completely with your reasoning. I won't own a rifle that I can't shoot. That's what they were made for IMO.
And I get it about the barrel taken off and never seen again.... have a couple of those now.

[sharps4590]

Toomaker, the first 40-70 brass I bought from Buffalo Arms when I got the rifle all those years ago. I'm certain it was re-formed from 30-40 Krag brass. At that time I bought 100 cases and haven't needed any more. A couple years ago a friend sent me 10 cases of 40-70 and doggoned if I can remember who made them. They were new, virgin brass properly head stamped. The case capacity on them is less than the re-formed Krag brass.

I believe it can be made from 303 Brit. brass if you have the means to stretch the case....I think.

I agree with your comment about a rifle being once altered from original then put back to the original cartridge, it's still not original. No different from vintage sports cars, they're only original once. I hated doing it but for all intents and purposes the old Jeffrey Rook rifle was pretty much a wall hanger otherwise. As it stands now I have a really sweet, accurate Rook rifle that's been re-lined to a cartridge that's close. The outside of the old rifle is pretty decent, lots of case colors left, bluing is....worn, wood is really nice but still, it's far from pristine and definitely isn't one of those 4K, H&H collector Rook rifles. That's ok, I shoot it fearlessly....lol!!

[Toolmaker TN]

Toomaker, the first 40-70 brass I bought from Buffalo Arms when I got the rifle all those years ago. I'm certain it was re-formed from 30-40 Krag brass. At that time I bought 100 cases and haven't needed any more. A couple years ago a friend sent me 10 cases of 40-70 and doggoned if I can remember who made them. They were new, virgin brass properly head stamped. The case capacity on them is less than the re-formed Krag brass.

I believe it can be made from 303 Brit. brass if you have the means to stretch the case....I think.

I agree with your comment about a rifle being once altered from original then put back to the original cartridge, it's still not original. No different from vintage sports cars, they're only original once. I hated doing it but for all intents and purposes the old Jeffrey Rook rifle was pretty much a wall hanger otherwise. As it stands now I have a really sweet, accurate Rook rifle that's been re-lined to a cartridge that's close. The outside of the old rifle is pretty decent, lots of case colors left, bluing is....worn, wood is really nice but still, it's far from pristine and definitely isn't one of those 4K, H&H collector Rook rifles. That's ok, I shoot it fearlessly....lol!!

That's good to know. Lots of good stuff from Buffalo Arms. I thought I had seen you can form it from 30-40, but it's quite a bit of work, and there doesn't seem to be any 30-40 brass to be had. Last I checked, Rem and Win had both discontinued it. Not the greatest of news, since I've got a Martini that I barreled in 30-40, just need to finish up the stock on it.

Who cares what it's worth really if you have a nice rifle that you enjoy. That's what it's all about to me. People get way too wound up about this collector stuff IMO. As long as you're not doing any damage, or degrading a piece of history, all guns were made for one purpose... and it's a shame when they can't do what they were built for.

I often wonder what Harry Pope would say about people putting his creations away and never seeing the light of day, except to fondle and show off. I suspect his comments would be in pretty plain English, and somewhat less than complementary....

[Wayne Smith]

I just ordered some 30-40 brass from Cabelas. I had some credit there and got that and 7x57 brass - 50 of each.

[Toolmaker TN]

I just ordered some 30-40 brass from Cabelas. I had some credit there and got that and 7x57 brass - 50 of each.

That's great news. The last time I looked for brass it was marked discontinued. Awesome, thank you!

[bigted]

I have an old Marlin 93 in 38 55. Got it relined with a 18 twist and chambered for the original chamber (i like the old stuff) ... my rifle sounds like yours with a old fix in the wrist, other then that it is a shooting dream with all the original barrel markings kept and the finish undesturbed as well. Thats my vote, reline and enjoy the original rifle in a cal that has a lot going for it AND will still have that question looming on your mind when around a campfire while hunting with it ... [wonder what this old girl has been through].

My 2 cents

[Toolmaker TN]

I have an old Marlin 93 in 38 55. Got it relined with a 18 twist and chambered for the original chamber (i like the old stuff) ... my rifle sounds like yours with a old fix in the wrist, other then that it is a shooting dream with all the original barrel markings kept and the finish undesturbed as well. Thats my vote, reline and enjoy the original rifle in a cal that has a lot going for it AND will still have that question looming on your mind when around a campfire while hunting with it ... [wonder what this old girl has been through].

My 2 cents

That's true, I bet this rifle has a lot of stories to tell over the last 130 years.
I've pretty much made up my mind to go the reline route. That way keep all the original barrel markings, and in a great caliber. Might even go the PP route with this one too. Still have to fix the wrist and make a new main spring. Looking at liners now.

[bob208]

anything away from the .38-55 case will require work on the extractor also. I would reline back to .38-55. I got lucky mine was a washed out .32-40 with a number 3 barrel so it is a .38-55 now.