1916 Spanish Mauser in 308 - value? Advice?

[bedbugbilly]

I know this is like asking someone how much a car is worth when it's parked 1,000 miles away, but . . . .

I have an old Danzig GEW98 in 8mm that I like playing with with light cast boolit loads - lots of fun.

I'm headed down to a gunshop on Wednesday to pick up a pistol I had ordered and I see that they have a 1916 Spanish Mauser in 308 on their list of used guns. I have been playing with the idea of getting a 308 to play with like the GEW98 - lighter cast loads - nothing heavy. I have the molds, dies and even a bunch of brass - just nothing to shoot them in. I know little about MilSurp in regards to the Spanish Mausers and if there were different models, etc. I'm basically looking for a "shooter" that is in original military form and not worked on by Bubba.

Any advice on what to look for and what general value of a 1916 Spanish Mauser would be if in good shootable shape - I'm not worried about finish wear or dents - they just add "character". :-) They have it listed at $370 and it's been so long since I have bought a MilSurp rifle I'm kind of in the dark as to what they are bringing.

Any advice, comments would be welcome. If I take a look at it and it is in poor shape or cut up, it would be an automatic pass. Thanks.

[pworley1]

I have one that is great with cast bullets. The price you list would be high in my area, but the price probably varies with location.

[foesgth]

I like mine. The sights are bit hard to see for this old guy. I still see the ones in 7mm going for under $200. The barrels on the 308s tend to be in better shape. You will have fun with it, so what is that worth to you? And you get to have all the keyboard marksmen tell you how it is going to blow up and end the world because it was made for the magic 308 cetme round. All of those were loaded with powder made from ground unicorn horns.:kidding:

[sghart3578]

I like mine. The sights are bit hard to see for this old guy. I still see the ones in 7mm going for under $200. The barrels on the 308s tend to be in better shape. You will have fun with it, so what is that worth to you? And you get to have all the keyboard marksmen tell you how it is going to blow up and end the world because it was made for the magic 308 cetme round. All of those were loaded with powder made from ground unicorn horns.:kidding:


Okay, that's funny right there.

I laughed because I too was looking at one of these rifles to shoot cast .308 loads. And I too ran into a bunch of folks that said that I was basically playing Russian Roulette with that approach.

Thanks for the laugh!


Steve in N CA

[castalott]

I have had 2 and they shoot good. I shot a 311410 Lyman at ~ 1100 fps...a really light load....

Please consider the age of these guns and maybe the rough life they had. I,myself, would hold pressures under 1/2 of the nominal 7mm Mauser round...maybe a lot under 1/2...

you must work the bolt with enthusiasm to feed right... not power but speed...

edited to add... I gave $165 for one and can't remember the other..

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks all - appreciate the information and encouraging words - maybe it was "meant to be" as I have a herd of unicorns roaming the field in back of me right now! :-)

The price I saw seems high to me - that's one reason I asked. I'm still in the mind set of when I used to e able to buy Enfields for $35 - $45 - oops - I'm really showing my age!

On my old Danzig, I usually load it up with a very mild charge of Red Dot under a 120 - 130 ish grain boolit. Works well and lots of fun - my days of shooting full power factory ammo are over andI don't hunt anymore so o reason to do so.

Greatly appreciate the information - I'll take a look at it when I go to pick up my pistol but I don't have high hopes or expectations.

[Nobade]

That's about 5 times what it's worth. If you do think about buying it, do yourself a favor and check out the headspace first. Every one I've ever seen has had the lug seats set back from being proofed. To the point that fired cases have a noticably shorter neck than they did before firing. You're right about keeping the loads light, I'd consider 30-30 ballistics to be pretty much max.

[foesgth]

Castalot that 311410 looks like a great boolit. My "hot load" is 26gr of rx7 under a Lee 309-200. These run out at ~1800. I also have FR-8. Both the 1916 and the FR-8 slug under .309 so I have been sizing .310. These PC and gas check rounds shoot great if you fudge the sight 100yrds. In other word I set the sight at 200 and shoot on the 100 yard gongs. I love these two rifles. When the tacticool guys are banging the gongs with their ARs the sound of that Lee 309-200 hitting the gong is great.

For grandkid plinking I use one of my M1 carbine boolits(115gr roundnose) under 11gr of trailboss.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

There are new rifles in 308 that cost less and probably shoot much better. The Spanish Mausers were intended for the 308 CETME - a much lower pressure round than the 7.62x51 or 308 Win.

[castalott]

I agree with all I have read....

One more thing to look for.... It is a controlled feed Mauser... Someone who didn't know the cartridge rim was supposed to feed behind the extractor might lay a cartridge in the gun and slam the bolt home.... making the extractor 'peel' over the cartridge rim. My first one had the extractor 'peeled' back so hard the rim wouldn't fit behind the extractor...the bolt wouldn't close.... It took 3 months to find another extractor ( pre internet days) and then it worked again...

[brstevns]

Just load it using 300 Savage load data and you will not have any problems. Don't believe a critter or paper will know the difference between a 300 Savage load and the 308 win.
I have one and that is what I am doing.

[Larry Gibson]

.........The Spanish Mausers were intended for the 308 CETME - a much lower pressure round than the 7.62x51 or 308 Win.

That is a common belief but it is a myth. The CETME cartridge actually has a higher peak pressure than most 308W or 7.62 NATO M80 Ball. A search of previous threads covering the M1916 and the FR7 will provide the pressure test results of CETME ammunition.

[john.k]

I dont think the 93 sets back from pressure.....I think its just plain wear....the steel is quite soft and the case hardening is thin.....when the bolts been opened and closed a million or more times,in dusty conditions,the guns is just plain wore out.Military guns were reckoned to last twenty years.....not 120.

[am44mag]

I know this is like asking someone how much a car is worth when it's parked 1,000 miles away, but . . . .

I have an old Danzig GEW98 in 8mm that I like playing with with light cast boolit loads - lots of fun.

I'm headed down to a gunshop on Wednesday to pick up a pistol I had ordered and I see that they have a 1916 Spanish Mauser in 308 on their list of used guns. I have been playing with the idea of getting a 308 to play with like the GEW98 - lighter cast loads - nothing heavy. I have the molds, dies and even a bunch of brass - just nothing to shoot them in. I know little about MilSurp in regards to the Spanish Mausers and if there were different models, etc. I'm basically looking for a "shooter" that is in original military form and not worked on by Bubba.

Any advice on what to look for and what general value of a 1916 Spanish Mauser would be if in good shootable shape - I'm not worried about finish wear or dents - they just add "character". :-) They have it listed at $370 and it's been so long since I have bought a MilSurp rifle I'm kind of in the dark as to what they are bringing.

Any advice, comments would be welcome. If I take a look at it and it is in poor shape or cut up, it would be an automatic pass. Thanks.

$370 is really high for a Spanish Mauser. $300 is acceptable, $250 or less is better.

[JoeJames]

I dont think the 93 sets back from pressure.....I think its just plain wear....the steel is quite soft and the case hardening is thin.....when the bolts been opened and closed a million or more times,in dusty conditions,the guns is just plain wore out.Military guns were reckoned to last twenty years.....not 120.Even though it is a 1916; it sholy ain't a 98 action. If you want a Spanish Mauser with a 98 action, get a Mauser Standard model. I have one which was converted to 7.62 after WWII by Spain and it's a regular 98.

[Multigunner]

M80 ball as standardized is not a very high pressure cartridge. Long range heavy bullet rounds on the other hand often generate much higher pressures.

[Earlwb]

I figure that the 93 Spanish Mausers converted to 7.62 Nato are probably selling in the $300 range nowadays, maybe more depending on the area.

They had more than one method for converting the rifles. Some had the barrels rebored and a chamber sleeve silver soldered in, others had the barrel replaced, the later FR8's had the barrel sleeved and maybe set back or a chamber insert made.

ref http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?269226-308-Conversions-Spanish-South-American-Mausers


Firstly, the Spanish and Latin American Converted Rifles ARE NOT ".308" rifles--- they are 7,62x51 Rifles, for use with Military ammo. Some importers simply stamped ".308" on (Spanish) converts, to facilitate sales in the "non-metric" USA. Notice I did NOT say "7,62 Nato", as Spain originally converted these rifles to use their own 7,62x51 Cetme Cartridge, and the Latin Users did not belong to the "NATO" circle, even though their ammo followed "NATO" Spec for the most part.

Now the actual metallurgy of the various conversions:
Israel... New Barrels to Mauser Kar98k profile, some made by FN, majority made by IMI. NO problems with either Military 7,62 or Commercial .308 Winchester.
Spain: Original Barrels ( M95 and M1916) Bored out, and a complete Liner fitted ( including chamber) and soldered in place. Some barrels show "flaking" of the outer tube from the inner sleeve; but otherwise, the "Tubing" ( Tubado) conversion is Sound, if used with proper Spanish 7,62x51 Ammo.
Any use of US Commercial .308 can lead to Barrel splits, receiver locking shoulder set back, and even cracked bolt lugs in the long term. This includes the FR-7 trainer made from M93/95/16 actions

Advice: use lower pressure Military ammo in Spanish converted rifles, or 80-90% Handloads of Military loads. Avoid commercial .308 ammo if you value your rifle and your physical integrity.
Spanish FR-8 short training rifles: made from M43 (98) Actions, so will be stronger than the M95 and M16 conversions. But originally made to be a "training substitute" in the 1950s, for the newly introduced 7,62 Cetme Assault rifle
( same cartridge, same sighting system, same bayonet and slinging arrangement, same OAL.)
Latin American Conversions: This refers mostly to Chile, but Peru, Brazil, and some other LA countiures converted some Mauser to 7,62mm in the 1950s-60s.
Chile: two types of conversion: For the M95 type Mausers, barrel sleeved by the Spanish method, but with this difference: barrel sleeve only takes up Part of the chamber, the rear being the original &mm chamber; the Joint between sleeve and chamber is soldered, and may become rough enough to cause case extraction problems with heavy use. Otherwise, normal 7,62 Ammo is ok.
For the M1912 Steyr Mausers ( marked "M1912/61" or simply "NATO") the Barrels have been replaced with re-cut Springfield Barrels ( 30/06 chamber shortened and recxut to 7,62x51, and rethreaded to fit Mauser receiver. THis is for the "Short Rifle" version. The rarer "Long rifle" ( 29inch Brl.) Conversion is also a "sleeve" type conversion. (AFAIK).

As these rifles were converted for use as Trainers and Police rifles, they were not made to fire on a heavy basis...more than likely a couple of clips a year, for Qualification, and that's it.
Advice: again, given the diverse nature of the Receiver types ( two lug and three-lug) and the age of the Actions...use low power 7,62 ammo, preferabl;ey 80% handloads.

Brazil: the M968 Mosquete "MosqueFal" 7,62 was made up using new or almost new DWM 1909 Actions, with New-made Barrels in 7,62mm...so any ammo can be used.

Peru: Peru converted a lot of its 7,65 rifles to .30/06, post-WW II...and some of its Short Rifles (FN M32) can also be found in 7.62mm..I have one, and the barrel looks like it has bveen rechambered and slightly set back (ie from 7,65 to 7,62)..the Bore is still 7,65 specs, so any shooting with BT bullets is likely to be less than accurate. Again, these rifles were made of "internal" Training and Policing work, and so would not have had large amounts of ammo through them. IN fact my example ( an FN32) has a bore that is almost brand new. Being a M98 design action, with a "solid" barrel, I would not have any problems with using .308 Commercial, but would prefer not to ( Rifle condition, value etc.).

Other L-A 7,62 conversions...Depends on who did the conversions, and how, and on whjat actions (see above details)

General considerations: on all "7,62" Conversions, whether new Barrel, completely rebored and rechambered barrel, or "Tubada" barrels, I would only use 7,62 Milsurp or Reduced charge Handloads, to the 45,000 CUP level, to match the early 7mm Actions (M93 and 95 types); Only the Israeli and the Brazilian and Spanish FR-8 would I even venture the use of "commercial" .308 ammo.

Regards,
Doc AV

[bedbugbilly]

Took a look at it when I was there . . . it was a "consigned" piece so evidently the seller was setting the price on it . . . . I don't like to talk badly about anyone's firearms . . . as they say, "one person's "antique" is another persons "junque" so I'll leave it at that. While I like military rifles, as one stated, I'd be better served to spend the money on a new rifle at what some of them can be purchased for now, especially since it would be a "fun gun" and not for anything serious. I took a look, it was worth taking a look, but I set it back in the rack, smiled and whistled "Just Walk Away Renee .. . " as I moved on.

Thanks for the responses - it wasn't a waste as I learned a few things about them so that made it worthwhile.

Jim

[turtlezx]

buy a new savage for less, warranty, accuracy and know what your getting no brainer
surplus is no longer a bargin

[pietro]

.

Better yet, the 1936 Mexican Mauser was built on a Mauser 98 action - the Gold Standard for military boltguns.

.

[Multigunner]

If the 7.62X51 Spanish Mausers were still available for less than 150 USD in very good condition I'd consider buying one, but anything higher than that would be paying a premium for a reworked rifle that is worth less to me than if it were still in original condition as a 7mm.
I would use only my tailored handloads. If a supply of good condition Boxer primed 7.62 milsurp ammo became available dirt cheap I would buy it only to use as components.

I've run across badly degraded milsurp 7.62 ammo in the past. Some was manufactured using WW2 surplus thick flake type powders that in certain condition breaks down to an acidic dust or mush that eats holes in otherwise good brass cases. It smelled like cankered cat urine. Ammonia dissolves copper based alloys, that's why its used as a bore cleaning solvent. Not something you want inside a cartridge case. Even the gilding metal cladding of steel jackets peeled away.

Funny thing the naked steel jackets were so highly polished and slippery even bone dry that it was difficult to keep a grip on them. They kept jumping from between finger and thumb like wet watermelon seeds or orange pips.

[Geezer in NH]

Personally I will not shoot a .308 win in anyone's 1893 Mauser action. I also will not drink the water in any country that does that.

308 Win is to big a chance. I do not want to win the blow apart lottery.

Many dis-agree so do what you like.

[WILCO]

$370 is really high for a Spanish Mauser. $300 is acceptable, $250 or less is better.

I've seen nice examples priced at $399.00 and they sold.

[Marlin356]

An ancient Mauser never made in 308 for more money than a new TC Compass ? Hmmm?

[john.k]

In fact ,the design of a 308 case is more suited to a 93 than the original mauser case.......the reason being the weak point of the pre 98 actions is the unsupported rim rebate.In the 308 case the base of the case is much strengthened to work safely in autos .

[Multigunner]

I wouldn't mind having a 93 or 95 action rebarreled for the .30-30 Winchester or .32 Special. I think it would make for an excellent cast boolit woods rifle.
Years ago very good condition 93 actions were available for $25. Wish I'd got one while they were cheap.
The rimmed cartridge might require an angled spacer fore and aft in the magazine box.
A magazine and floor plate assembly to convert Mausers to rimmed cartridges was made by Rigby for sporting rifles and once used on prototype Mauser carbines in .303 British.

[Texas by God]

I rebarreled and converted a rotten barreled 7mm 1916 Spanish Mauser to 30-30 Win. It turned out to be a favorite with cast and jacketed loads. The only magazine work it needed was to install a stop on the rear of the follower for the cartridge rim to "stop" on.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Marlin356]

I suppose you can build anything you want. My question is, as old Mausers are now collectible and no longer cheap, why ?
Savage, Ruger and TC all make entry level 308s that will end up costing less than a re-done mauser AND will still be worth something when you're done. I don't drive across country in a repurposed 1900s car fitted with a 350 crate engine ---- feel the same way about rifles.

[Texas by God]

I would only use a previously sporterized Mauser which is what I did in this case. I agree that you shouldn't modify an original condition Mauser no matter what country it is from.
There is something special about using a rifle you put together yourself, though.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Texas by God]

Sarco has 1893 actions for $99 if the bug bites anyone.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[gavlan]

I have a 1916 Civil Guardia (sp?) in very good condition and I love just messing around with it with cast , mild, low pressure reloads.
It's a fun , short rifle to have and use ,,,,,,,,,,,,, I think anyway.
I don't get into the "he said , she said" side of things regarding strength and pressures .

If you understand the limitations and like shooting the thing then that's enough for me.

Isn't this why we cast and reload to begin with ?.

[WILCO]

1916 Spanish Mauser in .308 is safe to shoot all day long. Proven daily. Hence the popularity.

[Kraschenbirn]

I picked up one of the 1916 Civil Gardia rifles three or four years ago. It had been rebarreled to 7.62x51 and, apparently, refurbished (reblue and refinish) at the same time. From the bluing wear on the stock furniture and rack dings, it appeared to have been carried a lot and shot very little...the bore was bright with sharp lands and slugged .301/.3085. Paid something like $180 for it OTD.

Gun hasn't seen a factory round since I brought it home but has put a couple thousand CBs downrange without a bobble. Shooting the RCBS 30-165 SIL, it'll match most of my other milsurps for accuracy out to 200 yds.

Bill

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Shortly after Israel was left armless and alone by the England, Israel started re-arming with any rifles they could get.
After the initial fighting Israel began to re-barrel thousands of 1916 Mausers in 308. We bought 6 about 30 years ago. Still have at least one that we carry in a car trunk off and on. Shoots well enough with .310 GC cast to do what a battle rifle is needed to do.
Mike in ILLinois

[Larry Gibson]

Information from the "horse's mouth" , so to speak, shows clearly 7.62 NATO ammunition was intended to be used in the FR7 (M1916s also) and the FR8 rifles. As I stated earlier actual pressure testing of Spanish 7.62 CETME ammunition shows it is not a "lower pressure" round. In fact it has a psi matching and exceeding the psi of many factory 308W ammunition. The time pressure curve was changed by using a faster burning powder and lighter weight bullet to ensure functioning in the non-fluted chambers of the early CETME rifles.



223007223008223009223010