Talk to me about a 45/70 lever

[brewer12345]

I have levers that range from .22 to .44, but I don't have the granddaddy thumper 45/70 version. Since we all cast, the expense of shooting these monsters is modest so that isn't much of an issue. What is an issue is the cost of the rifle (have to work up to that one) and recoil. I can handle a certain amount of recoil. I don't find it pleasant to shoot full house .30-06, but I can do it. .35 Rem in my lever is OK with full jacketed loads and fine with cast. So how does 45/70 recoil compare? Can you shoot lower powered cast loads and get tolerable recoil and a usable 100 yard deer and hog load? If this cartridge always yields a punishing thump, I am OK with saying it is not for me.

[MT Chambers]

The smokeless 45/70 is king of the hill, the best loads all use cast bullets, you save lots there, the 45/70 is one of the few rifles that is more effective with open sights, so you save money there. Buy the gun, check out Skinner peep sights and you are good to go. To reduce recoil, bullets as light as 280 grs. can be used, esp. on deer and hogs, even the collar button bullets can be used to good effect on targets and smaller game, recoil is minimal.

[brewer12345]

Unfortunately, I am at the point with my vision that any rifle I will use at 100 yards needs to be scopable.

[reivertom]

If you don't reload, most of the standard factory loads are mild, but you can get +p loads from some companies. If you reload, the pain you feel is entirely your own choice. I have made up some loads that would rattle the fillings in your teeth, but I got smarter as I went, and found out the 45-70 doesn't have to kill at both ends to get the job done.

[reivertom]

Unfortunately, I am at the point with my vision that any rifle I will use at 100 yards needs to be scopable.

No problem, just get a scope that can withstand some recoil. I have a Leupold 1-4x20 on mine and it is perfect for a lever gun. It has real good eye relief, which is nice on a 45-70, and it is small and light enough not to be clunky and effect the handling.

[brewer12345]

I cast and load, so dialing it in is no problem. I was just wondering if you can have a usable 100 deer and hog load without losing fillings.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I cast and load, so dialing it in is no problem. I was just wondering if you can have a usable 100 deer and hog load without losing fillings.

Yes.
There are many recipes for using 350 - 380 gr cast bullets that do not exceed 1600 fps. This is low to mid trapdoor territory. Kills deer dead and no dental repairs required.

[sghart3578]

405 gr PB bullet, 1 coat of BLL, 11 gr of Unique.

All you will ever need.

[brewer12345]

Yes.
There are many recipes for using 350 - 380 gr cast bullets that do not exceed 1600 fps. This is low to mid trapdoor territory. Kills deer dead and no dental repairs required.

I have been playing with a ballistic calculator and a recoil calculator. It looks like a 405 grainer (which I understand to be a classic boolit for this calculator) launched at roughly 1300 FPS would fly flat enough, have enough energy to be deer legal in my state, and produce modest enough recoil all in one. Meanwhile I am pretty sure that even 1000 FPS at the muzzle with a high tin alloy would probably deform and penetrate a deer end to end.

[44Blam]

You can load mild to wild.
I like tailboss loads, they shoot straight maybe accurate a little past 100 yards - no recoil.

I loaded a ladder of gas checked boolits from 10% below starting load to max (compressed with varget) in both varget and 4198. I found that my pain tolerance was below the max load. I did this with three boolits: 350/405/500

I have been shooting some nice little HP rounds that are 350 grain with 56 grn of varget under them and they let you know they are there but aren't painful.

The HP 350 grain boolits are the NOE Ranch Dog 350s:
221784

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have a Pedersoli 1886 sporting rifle, brilliant and accurate!

https://i.imgur.com/chnKiwx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Pv5TKjU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/43o42Ci.jpg

[Bird]

Trapdoor 45-70 loads will feel similar or have even less recoil than full 35 remington loads. Max loads in 45-70 will feel similar to, or more than 30-06.

[john.k]

Dunno about your max loads....when I first got my Marlin,1970s,a load by Elmer Keith was recommended...... 50 some odd grains of 4895 and a 450gn bullet......I regularly shot a 30-06 M17.....the 45-70 load was an eye opener.......I only fired half a dozen,and pulled the rest.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I've hunted with a Marlin 1895 45-70 since the 80's, not the only rifle I've used. I have shot about a dozen elk with it, wife shot a couple elk, loaned to two different individuals who also killed elk, one a superb 7x7. I reserve most of its use to elk hunting. I do not consider it a 'fun' rifle. I have Leupold 1.5-5x on it. I also consider it good to past 300 yards. I do not consider any rifle or caliber advantageous for iron sights. A properly mounted scope will always be faster and more accurate with the proper practice, even at very close range. Trajectory above 9000 ft is significantly flatter than at lower altitudes. I load a 300 grain Barnes Original over A2015 to 2150+. Recoil is 'significant'. Accuracy is about 1.2 MOA. I have a 300 grain cast bullet load, but recoil is still more than the
30 calibers and trajectory is extremely arced. If impressing the guys at the range is important than it is impressive, for killing stuff it is also impressive. To run rounds downrange for practice or fun a 30-30, 35 Rem or other lighter calibers are better.

[Mgderf]

I put a good "Kick EEZ" recoil pad on my Marlin 1895, and it made a world of difference.
I can shoot some pretty stout factory loads without discomfort.

Most of my shots, until now, have been in the 15 to 45 yard range. Not much bullet drop in that distance.
The property I have permission to hunt will not allow a longer shot due to topography and foliage.
That all changes this year. I am now 1/4 owner of 50 acres that will now allow for shots out past 500 yards.

[brewer12345]

Well, the nice bit about cast boolits is that almost any rifle can be fun to shoot. I don't fun butt-kicking 30-06 loads to shoot, but a Lee soup can over 12 grains of Unique makes 1 inch groups at a hundred yards, has no more recoil than my 38 special loads out of a lever rifle, and would flatten anything up to a coyote. If I get around to acquiring a 45/70 lever, I suspect the vast majority of what I send through it would be either light boolits, light charges, or both.

The Pedersoli is beautiful, but I imagine that with two college tuitions to fund it is probably way, way above my budget. Who makes relatively inexpensive 45/70? Seems like if you don't want to fool with Remlins you can search for a JM Marlin or buy a new Henry. Anything else out there I should have on my radar?

[reivertom]

Trapdoor 45-70 loads will feel similar or have even less recoil than full 35 remington loads. Max loads in 45-70 will feel similar to, or more than 30-06.

You must have a featherweight '06 if it bucks like a max load in a 45-70. Neither of my 30-06 rifles can match my 1895 with a stiff load.

[T-Bird]

I have a Marlin 1895 CB 45/70 that I shoot the LY 330 Gould with 30 gr IMR 4198 and dacron filler for about 1400 fps, great accuracy and doesn't kick like a mule. I have this for a 100yd deer rifle, but this is all I need for where I hunt. If you want to turn a large caliber rifle into a long range rifle, you either need to up the speed of the boolit, or have a sighting system that allows for rainbow trajectory. That's why they used tang sights in the old days.

[JimB..]

May I suggest that if you skip the (IMHO) foolishness of shooting the thing from bags on a bench that you’ll find an effective load well before you quit due to the recoil.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I purchased one of the recent Marlin Cowboy 1895's in 45-70 from Bud's under the rebate. It is fitted and finished about like the 8-10 pre-safety 336 Marlins and pre-safety 1895 45-70 and 1894 .44 Mag and 218 Bee I have. Based on this 1895 Cowboy, if I decided I needed another rifle I would consider a current production Marlin (the 1894C in 357 comes to Mind). I too would recommend Limbsaver or Kickeez recoil pad for ANY rifle heavier than a .223 or .357 for 'fun' shooting. I limit my heavy load shooting to 10-15 rounds per session with the lightweight 300 Mag, 45-70 or 358 Savage lever. I finish with a something light and fun to prevent developing a flinch. These options may not be possible for those who still work and don't have convenient range access. (Their own range) Recoil is still brutal with top line loads in the lighter 45-70's. Of course, gun weight can make a great difference in perceived recoil. Heavy rifles for the range, light for the woods. When shooting from a bench, I cheat, a folded towel, some shoulder mounted recoil, anything to help reduce recoil for load development and sight-in. I then check sight-in holding the rifle in both hands from a rest, from kneeling and off-hand. Your results may vary. Take the results and decide where to adjust for hunting from that.

[hpbear101]

The 45-70 cartridge can be whatever you want it to be (depending on the action used) from a sedate Trail Boss load, to trapdoor safe load, to nearly a heavy magnum load. It is a hand loaders dream cartridge as there are so many documented bullet and powder combo's available to accomplish whatever your goal is.

[murf205]

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Unfortunately, I am at the point with my vision that any rifle I will use at 100 yards needs to be scopable.

Brewer, you certainly know more about your eyesight than anybody else and I thought I needed a scope for my 1895 CB as well, but I bit the boolit and tried a Skinner Express sight and once I got used to using it, I can hit a piece of computer paper with a printed target at 100 yds reliably. Enclosed is the target I use (without holes, LOL) My bench shooting is not off of the bags directly but using the bag as a support for my hand under the forearm. The thought of putting a scope on my rifle just didn't do much for the appearance and I found that the skinner gave me enough accuracy for anything that a 45/70 would be used for. 70 yr old eyes are not for buckhorn sights IMHO. As for the looks, Skinner's are very appealing-to me anyway. Good luck.

[brewer12345]

murf, I have a Rossi 92 with the 24" octagon barrel which cannot be scoped. It has a long sight radius and a Marbles tang sight. I really couldn't see the front post through it, so I swapped it for a fiber optic which is a little too fat, but I can see it even in low light. At 100 yards, I can keep about all the 357 shots on a 12 inch target. Not accuracy I am happy with, but for a fun target challenge it is OK. For big game I would really rather put a small scope on the rifle and get much greater accuracy.

[murf205]

221821Maybe a scout scope? Amen to the fiber optic sight. They are great in low light situations. I put a green one on my 4" 629 and it is a lot better than the S&W factory front sight.

[44Blam]

I tried a scope on my 1895 and I found that with the recoil from the loads I was shooting, I couldn't see the impact of the round.
I ended up buying a Skinner sight and I've got a couple apertures. With the fine aperture, I can reliably hit a 3" clay at 100 yards. At further ranges, I am happy to print on 5-7" targets.

[HawkCreek]

I didn't think hot .45-70 rounds were painful at all. More of a strong push rather than a sharp kick like more modern cartridges. Of course the gun I was shooting them put of had a rubber butt pad on it...
Now that Winchester has brought back the 1886 in .45-90 I might have to get one just to show up all the .45-70 folk.

[Bridger]

I have both a 336 in 35 Remington and a Guide Gun in 45-70. I concur with what others have said here. You can load them down to mild levels or way up there to world class power (and recoil). In experimenting at my loading bench I put together a load that was just a bit too much. First shot off the bench left me with a bruised shoulder (first time in all my years of shooting and I own a 338 Win Mag). I tried the second shot standing up and never bothered with a third.

Keep the loads down to milder levels though and you should not have any issues. As far as an effective hunting load remember that old Trap Door rifle in this cartridge were used to kill Buffalo so I think you will be fine.

As far as your aging eyes, have you ever tried aperture sights such as Skinner or XS as previously recommended? I much prefer them to open iron sights.

Either way, if you are OK with the recoil from your 35 Remington you might want to consider just sticking with that as it is a great deer round. Really no need to step up to 45-70 if you are just going to hunt deer. That being said, I really do like my Guide Gun. It has XS sights installed along with the XS Scout rail and quick detach rings on my Scout scope. Very hand rifle and very versatile.

[murf205]

brewer12345, go to this website: www.MOD94SCOPERAIL.COM
You got my curiosity up so I found this site and he makes putting a scout scope on a Rossi 92 look pretty simple, or really simple for a good 'smith. The scout gives the access to the action and ejection of a lever gun like yours and, to me at least, it seems to be a bit handier than a scope mounted closer to the eye on a lever gun. This mount utilizes the existing threaded hold in the receiver so the is no drilling a receiver.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Brewer: My .45-70 is a 1895 CB It weighed less than my 1894 CB in .44 Mag.

I installed a gray coil Recoil Reducer and the main benefit of that thing was increasing the weight of the gun to 8 lbs. It also have a Pachmayer Recoil Pad installed. the gun is tolerable to shoot with 330 gr RCBS .45-300 RNGC boolits over 33 gr of 5744 for about 1550 fps. I can shoot 40 in one sitting at a Silhouette match and not suffer any adverse effects. I could probably take a few rounds of 405 gr boolits at 14-1500 fps but wouldn't make a habit of it.

I started at 25 gr of 5744 with that same boolit and worked up until I had a usable trajectory to 200 yards. A 300 gr boolit at 14-1500 fps will kill anything on this continent and you should be able to handle the recoil.

Biggest thing I can say about .45-70 Leverguns is they need to weigh at least 8 lbs, and 9 would be better. Then you can shoot heavier loads and not beat yourself to death. All the Marlins are too light, the 1886's are more like 9 lbs.

Adding denser wood on the Marlins is a good way to weigh them down but adding some lead in the buttstock is a cheaper way.

I like the Marlin action better than the Winchester because it is simpler to work on and responds well to simple deburring. The wood on Marlins can surprise you if you remove the factory paint and give it a good oil finish. My 1894 is quite fetching after refinish. My 1895 had pretty bland wood to begin with but came out nice after refinish, I have seen others more recently that are downright incredible. They make a nice 1895 18" Short Rifle that is particularly cool but I can see it being quite brutal with heavy loads..

A Lyman 66LA rear sight is the way to go on the Marlins and an XS White line Front Sight.

Randy

[Tatume]

Lately I've been shooting my Marlin Guide Gun. It's one of the early ones, with the 18" ported barrel. The ports don't bother me, and the short barrel doesn't appear to affect velocity either. The gun has a Lyman aperture rear sight, and the factory front. I'm probably going to get an XS Sights front sight, but haven't decided which one, post or big dot. My 1895 has a Pachmayr Decelerator pre-fit pad, which gives me another inch of length, which I need. I'm using 300 grain cast bullets and the minimum load for IMR 4198 from Speer No. 13. It's mild, accurate, and hits plenty hard. Wonderful gun.

[Drm50]

I've got a 70 model 1895 Marlin. I got it on trade, it came with original partial box of ammo in the
box. The guy I got it off of was complaining about the kick. I took the scope off and put a Lyman
66 on it. The only reason I kept it was because it shot fantastic. I was shooting 322 HP cast. I only
used it for fun. Then Ohio came out with rifle season and the 95 was the only legal deer rifle I
owned, out of 60+ rifles. I then went to 300gr Hornady HPs with hot IMR-3031. It shoots them as
well as cast. I agree that 45/70 has a kick that is less sharp than most HV rifles. The recoil never
bothered me and I'm 6' -160lb, no extra meat. All my BA magnums kick worse to me. I had a lite
300mag that would jar your teeth, on other hand had a old Sako 375H&H that you could shoot all
day. My 1895 kicks more than a stock model because I took the wood down like on the original
1895. The bulky stock and forend are now flush with metal. Doing this it made the butt a lot
smaller in area. Still I don't consider it a hard kicker. I would say it compares to a 870 20g shotgun

[Geezer in NH]

My 1895 Marlin 1970's era micro-grooved barrel. It shoots great! Bought 15 boxes of Federal 300 grain HP's at a local Kmart for 3 bucks a box.

I killed many deer with that load. I made a few loads for bear with the brass 400 grain Speer SP's. Those loads I got carried away with at 1700 fps I could hold the forend at 1800 fps OWWW!!!!! I could not. Shot 1 bear with them and then went back to the Federal factory.

Now I use a Gould HP at 1300 fps works on every thing here in NH.

[Tatume]

I've decided to put a fiber optic front sight on my Marlin Guide Gun. I ordered a green sight from Tru Glo; should be here in a couple of days. I may drill a hole in the hood too, but not until I've tried it.

[smkummer]

I am shooting a 350 grain cast with unique at 1300 FPS, very economical. Can shoot it all day long in my pistol grip 1895 S Marlin with 22” barrel. I can plink steel plates at 200 yards. I am sure it would shoot through about any animal on this continent. I also have a 336 35 Remington coming as we speak. Which will probably do everything the 45-70 does with flatter shooting.

I took the scope mount off of my 1895. If you get a 1895 and want the mount, just trade me some 36 Remington brass for it.

[OverMax]

Only big game I hunt is White Tail and have had the hots for a 45-70 for many years. But~~ I do not like the idea of owning a battering recoil rifle or the 45-70s bulkiness shouldering/ feel. (45-70 lever guns are big rifle's regardless of barrel length) The only thing intriguing about the cartridge is with Normal charges (not Ruger #1 velocity's) its 300 gr. plus bullet weight typically don't generate overwhelming amounts of bloodshot loss on deer size game. {kind'a like a muzzle loaders Patched Ball in theroy.} Would I now buy a button safety Marlin. Sure thing so's to rack up on the den wall. Although reality is: I have a dandy little 32 special now shooting paper patched cast lead & a sweet shooting 300 savage carbine for Fall still hunting walk-abouts. On the otherhand. You OP ~~I think you should purchase that 45-70 asap.

[Baja_Traveler]

I use my Marlin Cowboy for silhouette matches, and loading 16 grains of Trailboss under a plain base 350 gr. RNFP cast it thumps the 200 yard rams good and hard - and without too much recoil...

[Duckiller]

Have a 1895 CB with 26" barrel. Main lods are 300-400 gr with minimum loads of Trail Boss. Recoil is similar to a 22LR. It can be loaded a lot hotter and will hurt a bunch when it goes BANG. Trap door loads killed Bison. Why would you want anything more?

[44Blam]

Have a 1895 CB with 26" barrel. Main lods are 300-400 gr with minimum loads of Trail Boss. Recoil is similar to a 22LR. It can be loaded a lot hotter and will hurt a bunch when it goes BANG. Trap door loads killed Bison. Why would you want anything more?

This is why you need MAX varget loads under your 500 grn boolit from a 45-70 Govt:
222793

[robg]

Jaberwoky

[44Blam]

I gave my buddy some cast boolits under a solid varget charge and he made a video:

http://www.twonails.com/owncloud/index.php/s/nG8bs5v6GVRj3tC

He was sceptical about my choices... I know the boolit was 500 grn PB, powder coated and I think it was like 40 grain of Varget - I know it was a "pretty full" case but not a compressed load. It was a while back that I gave him the boolits, it was mainly because they would not chamber in my Marlin...

I love it!