how many handguners actually bench test

[Lloyd Smale]

there loads. By bench testing i mean at a range of 25-50 yards. I see all the time in the group buy results forums guys saying a bullet that i know is crap is great because it will shoot a inch or two group at 10 or 15 yards or because they shot one off hand group at that range that went into two inchs. I could never go into the hunting field not knowing exactly what my gun was capable of at 25 and 50 yards and every stinking one of my handguns are hunting guns. The game may vary but i do kill something with them occasionaly. Dont feel embarassed if you dont. I went to a couple linebaugh seminars and my buddy and i asked around and were suprised that about a 1/4 of the people there did none or very little. We had one guy thats name i wont mention that had a nice 500 linebaugh and were were talking loads and he first told us his gun was so good the first load he tried was a tack driver. We asked him his load and it was 25 grains of 110 with a 400 grain wfn. Now its possible this load will shoot but we knew that it had alot of mistakes to overcome. Its for one way to light of a charge of 110 and 110 doesnt burn well unless you get some pressure built. He also used a std fed primer which would be about the worst choise in this case and most here know my opinion of wfns and especially light for the caliber wfns. Well my buddy pipes up and asks what kind of a group it shot and he says hes never put it on the bench but it will hit a soup can at 15 yards all day. NOW THATS A BIG TACK!

We had all we could do to keep from laughing out loud. Thats what got us going and we started casually asking around. Youd be suprised at some of the names i could tell you that dont have a clue as to how well there sixguns shoot and some that buy these guns and admitt right up front that they can shoot them off hand but cant handle the recoil on a bench. Let me tell you something straight out. If you cant handle the recoil of a handgun on the bench put it back in the safe or sell it as you DO NOT shoot it well off hand anyplace but your dreams. If you cant get good trigger control on a bench where you have all the time in the world to think about it you are not going to in the field either. I here guys all the time tell me they shoot better off hand then on a bench. I laugh because i know right there they dont shoot worth a crap anywhere.

I am an avid handgun hunter. I very rarely hunt with a long gun anymore. The thing that makes me shake my head is even the old timers sat at a bench and made sure there guns shot exceptably well out to as far as they would be shooting. Handguners think they can put a target up at 15 yards or roll a couple beer cans at differnt ranges and be all set. It is rediculous. Personaly i consider a handgun in my hands in the field to be a 100 yard tool. I can make a killing hit on a deer sized animal at that range under field conditions. NOw ive shot 10s of thousands of rounds getting there and most handgunnes that havent should be looking at more like 25 yards. Hunting isnt punching paper. I allways here the statement that you should hunt no farther then you can keep all 5 shots on a paper plate. Well that just doesnt fly. Add the pressure of the hunt your heart beating your breathing hard from the stalk and most people should do the pie plate test but consider there maximum range half the range they can hold on a paper plate at.

Sorry for the rant but i just tire sometimes of reading about some guys great shooting gun or load or bullet and then see that he has no idea how that bullet acutally works or flys. Now i dont expect anyone to do like we do and test bullets out to 500 yards. Its not nessiary for hunting. I is not a waste of time though as it shows alot about the bullets your using and how stable they really are. Same with penetration testing. Just about every bullet ive put into a game animal has been penetration tested. We failed to do that last year when we went hunting buffalo and 4 horned sheep with our 500 linebaughs loaded with cast hollow points and soft nosed bullets and the whole hunt was a cluster ####!!!
I guess my whole point in this is a handgun isnt easy to master it takes work. If you want to hunt with one do the homework. Put in the time. Test your gun and know what its capabilitys are. This even applys to competition shooting. I am amazed at how many people come to a shoot with a box of factory ammo. Very few of them have sat down on a bench and even have a clue as to how well there ammo is shooting. I took two guys last year that shot scores 10-15 points less them me and sat at the bench and did some rudimentery handloading for them. I didnt look for a week for the best load but found something that shot at least an inch and a half. Then we properly sighted in there guns and both of these guys are now outshooting me and one took the overall championship for the year. You cant consistantly hit a 2 inch target with a gun that shoots 3 inch even if your sight picture and trigger control are perfect. It amazes me that the same guy that will spend days on the bench getting his bolt action rifle to shoot an inch group will roll beer cans to sight in his handgun. Well there you go my pain killer induced rant for the day ;)

[leadeye]

I do bench test my handgun loads on paper at 25 and 50 yards just to see how they do, but my handgun shooting is more recreation oriented. I do run some of the same loads down my Marlin which I do use for hunting though. Not a great handgun shooter although now that I am retired I hope to get better. It is always a lot of fun either way.

[Down South]

It’s hard for me to imagine folks hunting with handguns or long guns that haven’t spent the time at the bench but I’m sure there are plenty of them out there. If I can’t get a gun shooting correctly off the bench it doesn’t go in the hunting woods with me. I spend a lot of time with bullet/load development with each gun that I have. To me it’s part of the fun. Having the time to do it isn’t always readily available. If I don’t test my guns at the ranges that I plan on hunting with them then I don’t have confidence in that gun. If I don’t have confidence in the gun that I have in the field then to me it’s a wasted trip. Actually I never carry anything that that I’m not 100% positive that won’t perform the way that I want it too.
My max test ranges change with different guns. I only have two that I test out to 500 yds. Like you said, testing out that far really isn’t necessary for hunting. I do test all of the long guns that I have out to 300 yds. I still use jacketed bullets in my long guns. Some day I’ll start casting for them. I cast for all of my handguns and I do use several of them for hunting. For me bench testing is a necessity and so is testing off the bench. When I walk into the woods I know what the gun and I both can do.

[Whitworth]

How does one do any load development offhand?????:confused: I guess stranger things have happened..... I will normally start every shooting session on the bench to make sure the equipment and the operator are still where they are supposed to be and then do my offhand and and field position practice. I do not however bench out to 25 yards, and instead opet to start at 50 and move it out from there. It is in my experience, too easy to shoot and group at 25 yards. 44man got me off of shooting at 25 yards -- it's his fault! But, I have to say that his insistence has drastically improved my shooting.......

[mike in co]

i only shoot at paper and steel. there is something that needs to be addressed. poi will change signficantly from bench and free holding the gun with one or two hands. so while i agree the bench testing is important, re-testing at expected range is also required.

for ipsc style shooting i know where my gun hits ,two handed at 7,10,15,20,25,50 yds. the other match i shoot is steel at 50 yds.....44 mag.......so i only need to know 50 yd poi.

mike in co

[targetshootr]

I don't hunt so I don't shoot off bags. Whenever I try, I don't shoot any better than I do offhand. Imo, there are too many variables involved to know if a gun or a load shoots well without using a Ransom rest. I read a Venturino article several months ago and he said the exact same thing.

:castmine:

[MT Gianni]

I shoot of bags to determine a load's accuracy. Most of my shooting with that load is then done offhand or from a post rest. [leaning the wrist against a post or tree]

[Poygan]

I work up loads for each hand gun from the bench starting at 25 yards and may go up to 50 yards. Once the load is developed, I practice from these ranges with my normal two hand grip. I do hunt whitetails but in truth its more of an armed hike. I use an 8 inch model 29 and I know my limitations with it and the HP 429421s and 2400. For me, about 50 yards is the max range I would consider, mainly because I detest wounding any creature.

[Kraschenbirn]

As an old-time IHMSA shooter...where the rule of thumb was 2" (or better) groups, off sandbags, at 50M...I learned long ago that bench testing is a MUST-DO for accurate loads. Without an objective measurement of accuracy under controlled conditions, there's just no way to reliably predict how a gun/load combination will perform in the field.

[missionary5155]

When I am up there (Illinois) I bench test all my hunting loads to 100 yards ( 6 inch black bull).
If my load does not hit 100% IN the black than it is not a hunting load. If it is a load for groundhog or coyote the load has to do 4 inches which sure did eliminate several loads. This revolver (Dan Wesson) carries a 2x Leopold extended scope. I hunt with primerily 41 mag. But one exception is my .375 Super Mag Dan Wesson 8 inch which was used on the last corn cruncher two years ago. IHMSA was my PRIMER also for Long Range Handgun orientation.

[buck1]

""It amazes me that the same guy that will spend days on the bench getting his bolt action rifle to shoot an inch group will roll beer cans to sight in his handgun.""

I think you nailed it right there. I have known many handgun hunters that will still take a rifle on a "serious hunt". Its not a easy thing to leave that rifle home and rely ONLY on a hog leg.

I just got back from a Prong Horn hunt I will never get to try again. My .454 FA and a Ruger .44 mag bisley as a back up went with me. Thats it, no long guns at all. I knew with my rifle I would tag out within reason. But it stayed home. Sure enugh all my chances exceeded 150 yds, but would have been cake for my rifles. I came home with only sore feet and the knowlage that I had more fun coming home with out one with my handgun than with one from my rifle.
No bench work.......No REAL comitment.

[44man]

Oooorah, a few that know how important it is to bench a handgun. My criteria is 1" or less at 50 yd's for hunting from a revolver. A single shot has to print an inch or less at 100 yd's. My MOA has done 5/8" at 100 for 5 shots and both it and my Witchita has done 1-1/2" at 200 yd's.
Every single one of you would work like crazy with a rifle at 100 yd's and more but a few think a handgun only needs to be shot off hand at 7 to 25 yd's.
Even if you just plink at close range, why is it not important to have accuracy? How can you get to be a good can shooter if the gun only does 3" at 7 yd's? You will NEVER improve your shooting.
It is true that some calibers need to be sighted away from the bench before hunting and the Creedmore position will match off hand real close. No need to shoot off hand to sight the gun.
However the larger calibers like the .475 hit the same from bags as they do off hand.
Whitworth and I spent time shooting at a can off hand at 100 yd's and neither of us strayed beyond a 6" pattern and that was with hot loads in the .475. There is no excuse for poor accuracy even if you shoot close range. Why are revolvers relegated to the junk pile when a good .44 load can clang steel at 500 meters?
I HATE when someone says their gun "shoots good" at 25 yd's. WHAT IS GOOD? From the bench you should have almost one hole that close. The boolit should also be stable and accurate as far as the boolit can travel. Even if you only shoot at 25 yd's, why have a boolit or load that goes crazy and won't stay on paper at 50 yd's?
As for the Ransom rest, what a joke! [smilie=1: Ever since it came out I have never seen 25 yd groups in the rags that will equal what I get at 50 or 100 yd's from bags. It is not a cure all and finding the right boolit and load means a lot more. That machine will not replace trigger control and if you can't outshoot it after playing with it, what good is it?
The first thing to do is find the right load, then learn to shoot it. Of course if the gun scares you, you will do neither.
Accuracy is and always will be "KING". The only interesting gun is an accurate one! :Fire:

[2 dogs]

Lloyd, that the most words you said since I known ya!

You just about wore me out reading that post. I'm serious, It took me 3 cups of coffee and 2 Marlboros to get thru.....Now, Im sittin here all pissed off cuz you know how I love to argue with you and I cant find a thing to disagree with.....Guys, you need to test EVERYTHING and you have to practice ALOT.....

I work with my sixguns at all ranges, to prove them up, and to test my skills. I'm 48 now, and have shot steadily since I was a wee tot...Im not so wee anymore, mores the pity, but I have some iron sighted sixguns that will hold 2 1/2 inches at 100 yards from the Keith backrest position. I bench test mine at 50 yards and demand 2 inches or better from my sixguns or they go down the road or off to be accurized. I dont care to mention how ammo much I have shot since you wouldnt believe me......

[James C. Snodgrass]

As much as I can I test from a bench but know of several folks that test from the creedmore position . Now I'm talking about IHMSA pistols and revolvers as the sight picture is usually at a proper distance when in the creedmore position . I myself look for MOA or as close as I can get from single shots and 1 1/2 MOA from revolters, but of course the wheel guns are hardly as cooperative as I would like. As far as hunting goes if you are not (sure) of the shot it is a sportsman's responsibility to pass or stalk closer . I know of a few that will take a hail Mary shot because ( It was late in the season or it was the biggest ........ I've ever seen ) those are not legitimate excuses as far as I'm concerned. JMHO James

[44man]

2 dogs, a man I can respect.
Isn't it funny how all of us old IHMSA shooters know the score?
Every handgunner should experience the sport. :drinks:

[bigdog454]

Test my loads at 40, 65, 90 yards. I moved my backstop 10 yards closer so I had a clear lane to drive the Tractor when I'm not shooting and haven't moved my shooting stations, so that's why the odd distances. Hand guns 40 and 65 yard load development rifle 90 yard. I don't think that the live targets know that I only sighted in at those distances from a bench. I'm still looking for that elusive 5 shot one hole for tha bench, especially with the handguns. I feel that if I can keep all of my shots in the black at whatever distance then if I miss the game its my fault and not the load or the equipment. So; the bench test tells me if the load and gun are capable.

[Larry Gibson]

LLoyd

Amen brother!

We also see a lot of the same with rifles. A lot of off hand groups. A lot of "benched" groups at 25 and 50 yards. What I really have found interesting so far in this thread is the common excuse not to adequately test; "there are too many variables involved". Correct and adequate testing removes the variables. I've also observed that those who can shoot well from a proper rest can't shoot well otherwise either. Most of them say something like; " I ain't too good on paper but I'm hell on deer!" We usually don't see them bringing home too many deer either.

This leads me to my only addtion to your comments; I see many, many examples of very poor marksmanship ability. Many think that marksmanship is a natural ability, it is not. It is learned. Most anyone can buy a gun and some ammuntion and shoot. Few realise there is a difference between shooting and marksmanship.

Larry Gibson

[targetshootr]

I found one of Venturinos articles. Although it doesn't read exactly like I remember, the jist of it is the same.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_/ai_n16034733

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I test my .22 target ammo in my IZH and Benelli semi auto's at 25M from a Ransom Rest. The same with my hand loaded .38spl. ammo in my Model14 K-38. I do the same at 50M with my .22 TOZ Free Pistol. I do this with every new lot of .22's., which I buy by the case, after going through test lots
Morgan

[44man]

Targetshootr, that speaks loads! It shows he loses control fast and has to depend on mechanical means. Not much of a shooter!

Morgan, I can do the same with a .22 pistol from creedmore to find the best ammo. I am almost 72 and can still keep my Ruger Mark II in 1/2" or less at 25 yd's with CCI blue tag hollow points. My Anshutz pistol would do better then 1/4" at 50 yd's with RWS match ammo. I once put 30 shots in one ragged hole.
No way I would spend big bucks for a Ransom rest.
If you can't sort .22 ammo by shooting with your hands, how can you shoot good with anything?
Control! Reminds me of the time a shooter came to the range and set a target at 10 yd's. He shot his SBH at it and never touched paper. I asked if I could shoot it. I shot it Creedmore after putting the right amount of clicks on the sight. But he had the factory grip panels and never took off the sharp edge on the trigger guard. Every shot cut my large knuckle until there was blood everywhere. But I kept every shot in a gallon jug at 200 yd's. He went away without a word and big eyes.
The Ransom rest is nothing more then a crutch. My good friend Whitworth can outshoot the thing in spades.

[targetshootr]

He left out other possiblilities in that article. If the groups are large, is the gun not accurate, is the load not suitable, is the shooter mashing the trigger, is his eyesight getting worse, did he have too much coffee. And there are probably others to consider. And when you go afield, how do you reproduce the same hold you use on bags? I think if a person shoots offhand almost exclusively they'll be a better judge of how well they shoot or how badly they shoot and also how well they shoot one load over another.

[Lucky Joe]

I agree with Lloyd, many good words here. Below is my bench it's fold able and therefore portable, and at the same time remarkably solid. Picture says it all, I have it I use it, I guess I was raised right didn't know there was another way.

Lloyd those must be some pain killers, sorry you have to endure that back pain
.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/2N07-5-1817-6.jpg

[unclebill]

i bench all of my firearms.
i need to see what they are capable of.
and it is a must for load development.
once if find out what the gun likes i am confident in it's capabilities.
then i go plinking!

[44man]

Targetshootr, If a gun or load is not accurate it doesn't matter how good the shooter is, he will NEVER shoot to his capabilities or correct problems.
Explain how a gun or load that sprays 6" groups at 25 yd's can be made to shoot 1" groups at 50 yd's by the skill of the shooter? Will the shooter get better by banging away thousands of shots?
Who do you know that can judge an accurate load by shooting off hand? Minute of 5 gallon bucket at 10 yd's?
You name all of the problems a shooter can have but if the gun does not shoot to start with, how does the shooter know he is screwing up?
If a gun will do 1" at 50 yd's but the shooter can only do 2 feet, then he will know he is the problem.
What do you blame for a miss? The gun or the shooter? I prefer to blame myself, NEVER the gun because I know it will shoot.
And that, my friend, is the secret to learning how to shoot.

[Blammer]

well dang it, I guess after that lecture I better put this thing on the bench and see if it'll shoot any better than this 100 yd off hand shooting I do. Oh yea did i mention it was really really windy too, and raining, and the sun was glarin in my eyes, and.....and I keep missing that stupid X!

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/44SRH_250gr3crimp19gr2400.jpg

[Wildcat]

I always bench at 50 yards for accuracy. I then sight in by sitting and using my knees as a rest, usually leaning against my truck. Seems more consistent then and is almost as accurate (sometimes moreso) than off the bench.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Targetshootr, that speaks loads! It shows he loses control fast and has to depend on mechanical means. Not much of a shooter!

Morgan, I can do the same with a .22 pistol from creedmore to find the best ammo. I am almost 72 and can still keep my Ruger Mark II in 1/2" or less at 25 yd's with CCI blue tag hollow points. My Anshutz pistol would do better then 1/4" at 50 yd's with RWS match ammo. I once put 30 shots in one ragged hole.
No way I would spend big bucks for a Ransom rest.
If you can't sort .22 ammo by shooting with your hands, how can you shoot good with anything?
Control! Reminds me of the time a shooter came to the range and set a target at 10 yd's. He shot his SBH at it and never touched paper. I asked if I could shoot it. I shot it Creedmore after putting the right amount of clicks on the sight. But he had the factory grip panels and never took off the sharp edge on the trigger guard. Every shot cut my large knuckle until there was blood everywhere. But I kept every shot in a gallon jug at 200 yd's. He went away without a word and big eyes.
The Ransom rest is nothing more then a crutch. My good friend Whitworth can outshoot the thing in spades.

44man, I've got the Ransom Rest
from back when I used to work on target pistols, and load custom target ammo. I've been shooting International-Style pistol for many years, and in international, our finals are scored in tenths of a point. The electronic Sius Ascor targets can measure a shot to .01mm.
I'll explain: a shot just touching the 9 ring is a 9.0, a shot in the center of the 9 ring is a 9.5, a shot ALMOST touching the 10 ring is a 9.9. When you're spending almost $20/50 for high quality target .22 ammo, you want to make sure it's the best for your gun. BTW, the ten ring at 50M for Free Pistol, is 50mm dia. This is outdoors, one handed, 60 shots with open sights, standing on your hind legs like a man. Quite a chore for me going on 69yrs. old. I also belong to the Western Carolina Schuetzen Society, where we regularly shoot offhand at 200yds, also standing on our hind legs.

I DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' CRUTCH!!!

Morgan

[gon2shoot]

ANYTHING I'm going to hunt with I shoot off the bench first.
Probably ought to quit that, cause then I can blame the gun when I miss. [smilie=1:

[Blackwater]

You can't "KNOW" anything about a load until the load itself (in that rifle) is proven, and the bench is the only way to "prove" a load. With good bench technique, you're really giving the rifle/load a legitimate test. Biggest problem here is that most people don't seem to have very good bench technique, but that's another subject for another thread.

The way to test anything is to test ONLY one variable at a time, and the bench offers the only really legitimate "all things are (effectively) equal" set of parameters that can be had in shooting. AFTER the load's accuracy is proven (or disproven), THAT's the time when we need to break away from the bench and test our "real world" prowess with that particular gun and load. Unfortunately, most of us, self included, just don't do this enough either.

[Whitworth]

well dang it, I guess after that lecture I better put this thing on the bench and see if it'll shoot any better than this 100 yd off hand shooting I do. Oh yea did i mention it was really really windy too, and raining, and the sun was glarin in my eyes, and.....and I keep missing that stupid X!

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/44SRH_250gr3crimp19gr2400.jpg


Good job, Blammer! That is some fine shooting!

[44man]

Yes indeed Blammer, show them how it is done! Those that can't do that at 25 yd's can learn a lesson but mostly they will drool a little! :mrgreen:
Morgan, I am glad you said it the way it is and I respect your fine shooting. You don't need that mechanical thing a ma bob! :Fire: I know darn well you can tell when you find good bullets.
That was my point. A good shooter doesn't need something to hold his gun and sometimes it still doesn't prove anything of value.

[unclebill]

we have some great shooters here!
i still bench all my guns to see what they are doing all by themselves.
the other 99% of the time i stand .
(i dont have hind legs)
and yes
i am a man.

[Blammer]

personally I bench test all my guns first.

I do have a ransom rest but havn't used it in a while.

Usually at 25 or 50 yds then farther out, usually to 100. I'd love to try 200 yds but there are no ranges that long around by me.

[Glen]

Lloyd, I bench test pretty much everything I shoot and certainly everything I hunt with. Here is my shooting bench. Yes, that "table leg" on the right is a 12" log (burried about 3' into the ground). It's a pretty solid bench. The backstop you see in this photo is the 25 yard backstop, the 50 yard backstop is off to the left, behind the tree. I do my longer range shooting farther back on my property, where things open up for half a mile or so....

[Lloyd Smale]

heres something ive learned for the guys that claim they dont bench because the poa is so much different. It used to be for me too. What the problem is more then anything is poor trigger control. Now i can see faces turning red allready and guys wanting to scream at me that theres noting wrong with there trigger control. But sorry, there is. When you on a bench you have all the time in the world to consentrate on pulling that trigger. It isnt the same when you shoot off hand and especially if you have the pressure of an animal in your sights. Ever notice that when the point of aim is differnt it will just about allways be low or left or both. Another thing benching your gun does is give you repetitive trigger control practice. After firing well over a million rounds in handguns on a bench your brain must just learn the proper way to pull a trigger because my group dont vary more then an inch from off hand to the bench. Another thing is to bench properly. Throw away the ransom rest. Throw away all the rifle type bench rests. Buy your self or make a bunch of sandbags. stack bags so you can rest the frame just ahead of the trigger guard on the front bag or so you can push the area where your cylinder pin is into the bag. Place another bag on the bench to rest your and on and do not rest the grip frame on the bag, just your hand. Use the bag to steady the gun and not to hold all the weight of the gun. This is the best way for most people to shoot accurately and keep point of aim the same. My only varitation to this is i dont rest my grip hand at all, i just rest the frame on a bag. Now if the only spot the gun touches is on the frame in one spot and your trigger control is perfect each time in both off hand and the bench. tell me how it possibly could cause a gun to shoot to a differnt point of aim. Procede to shoot about 5000 rounds like this and see if your trigger control doesnt improve and your off hand shooting improve right along with it. I hear all the time that im wasting my time sitting on a bench and to that i say bs. Its the best possible place to learn proper trigger control and to give a guy confidense in the field because he knows if not his capablilitys at least the capablity of his load. If i had to train a new handgunner i wouldnt even let him shoot an off hand round until he had sat on the bench and about wore a gun out. Starting someone with a handgun and sticking some cans out to shoot off hand is about a guaranteed way to teach his brain poor trigger control.

[Bass Ackward]

Want me to really get you upset? Would you believe that there are many people today that have automobiles that they don't know how fast the top end speed is? Or how fast it will go in the quarter mile? Yet they say it is a good car.

I say 25 yards is the ideal range as that's as far as you can see reliably to know if you were the cause. So shoot as far as you can see.

People get so confused. Look, a handgun is supposed to be a " h a n d g u n ". If the shot isn't made within fractions of a second of clearing leather, then you ain't handgunnin, your riflin without the stock. If you got glass on the gun instead of your face, your cheatin so you don't feel so bad. Why don't we all get lazer grips and just paint the target?


:bigsmyl2:


And we all know that you don't know squat about racing if you haven't driven a Demolition Derby. Real men smash metal. Any idiot can go round in a circle. I go through life that way.

Now there's some stuff to chew on. Honey, how bout a beer?

[Bret4207]

I bench my guns and figure some where between 50 and 100 rounds to try a load. Why that many? 'Cuz my eyes just plain suck. I haven't found a set of glasses yet that allow me the flexibibltyI need, so I just concentrate on the front sight and see what the average turns out to be. Take a short barrel like my little Smiff Bodyguard and it might take 200 rounds. (BTW- you want to learn trigger control you take a belly gun and shoot at 50 -100 yards! You thought 25 was bad...!) Once I find a "good enough" load I'll see where I hit not using the bench. I know all the theory on why I hit differently off hand than on the bench, but it's true for me. My little 22 Kit Gun is a prime example- I hit one place on the bench, another 2 handed and a third one handed. Since most of my shooting with that gun is one handed at trapped furbearers that's where the sights go.

There's nothing that makes a better shot than practice, nothing. I see way too many people depnding on gizmos to improve their groups. Most would be better served by taking the money spent on that 8-32X scope and putting it into ammo and targets.

[44man]

Lloyd, that IS a good way to sight in and practice. But when I am working loads or testing a new boolit, it just isn't steady enough for me.
I have tried it with all of my revolvers and found when on the frame, accuracy decreases and I don't know whether to blame my shaking more or if there is an effect on the gun. I can actually hold twice as steady from Creedmore as I can by floating the grip hand or even resting my wrists.
All of of my bench shooting is not practice, it is just testing for the smallest groups possible.
My practice is off hand or from hunting positions. All of my hunting shots on deer are off hand either on the ground or from a tree stand. No sticks. When a deer is bumped and gives me a shot, there is no time to set sticks. We are holding 6" groups at 100 yd's off hand and we take turns in the tree stand, setting plastic bottles out to 65 yd's or more and we have no problems hitting them every shot.
It is very true that bench shooting will teach trigger control and Creedmore is very good for that too. But it still has to be carried over to off hand and that is where guys fall down. I have had expert shooters here that after one shot with my cannons, they start to tear up the ground from flinching, yet do not flinch from the bench or with their smaller guns.
It is a head game to be sure! :drinks:
Bass, I have never had to clear leather to protect myself from a deer! :mrgreen:
There are two kinds of shooting, for carry and protection and for hunting and long range, if you give me 5 minutes, I can get the gun out of my holster! [smilie=1: It is in my hand when I hunt.
Yeah, I cheat with my red dots because I can't see for crap any more but when the light is good I still kill deer to 100 yd's with my Vaquaro if I wear my glasses. I also need my special hat! :coffee:
25 yd's???? My worst loads I ever made will shoot tiny groups that close and a guy with a flinch will not throw out a shot far enough to tell what he did wrong. Put him at 50 and he will be able to see the tater furrows he makes! :-D

[unclebill]

lloyd thanks for the tips
bass i must be a rifler then!
bret shooting 1000's of rnds. was the only reason i got a dillon 550b!
i have only enjoyed the shooting sports for about 4 years now (i am a late bloomer)
and i need a LOT of trigger time!

[Bass Ackward]

Dang. I wanted to get an argument going. What upsets me most I forgot the hat. :grin:

I know a guy that is anal about patterning a shotgun. Condemns me cause I don't. I took four of his own loads from the same batch that he loaded for me the month before, and asked him to pattern them in "his" own gun that is of coarse superior to everything in the country. Then tell me what he thought. Said he didn't like any of them but the third load was the best of the bunch.

He was kinda sour when he found out they were his loads that he had been braggin on just the month before. :grin:

Point is that while we define performance, people define differently. I pick on handgunning style not to rile folks, although that is the general trend. Some guys are just sensitive about cheatin. :grin: Can you imagine going out to play basebell with a flat bat 12" wide or rocket assisted to give you more power? Why of coarse not. But in shooting we cheat as much as our wallets will allow. :grin:

I do it to show that regardless of our current opinion, that there is someone out there with a different one. Not to belittle yours. Personally, I hunt with opens. I limit my shots accordingly. I carry light because I am walking when I hunt so that I can spook up deer for the lazy guys in the stands. I could care less what my handgun does group wise at 200 yards or how a bullet flies beyond 1000 when my shots would all be less than 100 which actually is actually 80 and we just call it 100. :grin:

The other point I was making in jest, is that there isn't a bigger bunch of testers on the planet than casters. It's sorta funny once you get passed this thread that we are criticising ourselves. :grin: Our biggest problem is that we need to get off the bench once in awhile too and shoot like you will when using the gun. Course some guys build better stands than the house I live in, so that must be considered too. And more power to'em if that floats your boat.

And Jim, I know you don't use a holster. Where would you find one to hold a moon observation devise and the tripod too? :grin: You probably use a golf bag?

[felix]

Glen, I like your bench! "Looks" better for home use than concrete. Unfortunately, these good benches don't have wheels as required for my application. Needed around here is BruceB's van, modified further to have a couple of bomber WWII revolving turrets on top, one for Corky, and one for me. We gotta' handle those charging cans, and those shotgun shells sticking up their finger at us while floating around in and out of the weeds. ... felix

[BABore]

I'll have to go with Lloyd on his bench technique. Keeping your butt off the bags eliminates vertical stringing and keeps POI nearly identical to off hand groups. 44Man, We all got into this awhile back and you finally admitted that it can be a problem. I do agree that I'm much steadier if both the bbl and butt are bagged, but I can't group near as well. Just different strokes and shakes here.

Just last Sunday I was dialing in my 480 Ruger for an upcoming early doe season. I had to adjust the Ultra Dot sight in for a different, tested load. I took great pains in setting up the bags so that my offhand (hunting) POI would be similar to the bench. From the sitting position, I bagged the bbl. Now sometimes I shove the frame into the bags, other times it's only the bbl. All depends on the gun and its likes. If'in it has an ejector rod housing or not, that can hook the bag on occasion. With the butt completely unsupported, I positioned bags to support my forearms, just behind the wrists. Now here is an added factor I have learned. You need to look at how your arms are extented and their relationship to your shoulder. I try to get my body/arm relationship to be real close to my standing, offhand position. The closer you can come, the better your offhand POI will be. I also try to avoid any recoil induced bench contact, such as your strong side forearm pivoting atop the bag and bumping your elbow into the bench top. Not only does it hurt some, but it also doesn't happen offhand.

After firing several 50 yard groups from the bench and making the necessary adjustments, I fired a group or two at 100 yards to check drop. From there I confirmed the offhand POI. I started at 25 yards and muffed the first two shots. The first was trigger control, went low and left. The second went high and right. Damn thing hit exactly where the dot was when the trigger broke. After applying the heel of my hand to my forehead a couple of times, I settled down. The next 3 shots cut one large hole in the bullseye. All five shots made an 1 1/2" group. POI was then confirmed at 50 and 100 yards. It was the same as the bench.

In regards to testing loads, I do my initial tests at 25 yards. I pay particular attention to group shape and of course, size. I look for nice round groups that run from one hole to 3/4" max. All of my hunting wheelers and their favorite loads will do that. 25 Yard groups are easy to shoot cause of target clarity and my better ability to call flyers. But, they only give me a "warm fuzzy" about a loads potential and eliminate the crap loads. From there I load up larger sets of the best loads and work at fifty yards. Now I'm not at my best here as I only on a rare occasion can I even get close to a inch group. 1 1/2" is about my norm and it's just me. Knowing that, I can still judge a load's potential. If a given load looks good at 50 yards, it's then grouped at 100 yards. I've had many a great 25 and even 50 yard load that is only ok at 100 yards. A good 100 yard group for me is 3 inches with a dot sight or 4x scope. I've shot better, but it's all on me and my trigger control. I'm sure some of my loads would do much better with somebody else squeezing the trigger. My final test is more for bullet stabilty. I like to bench shoot out at 200 and 300 yards. I've had several boolits/loads that grouped well all the way out to 100 yard, that wouldn't make it at 200 yards. I shoot 25 or more shots at a 10" square swing target. I'm looking for those wild flyers that are not me. I've had several good loads that would throw 1-2 shots, 4-6 feet out while the rest of the cylinder would ring steel. A load that doesn't pass muster at long range just won't do for a hunting load.

I recently had a really good shot try out one of my best 480 Ruger loads. It's a 400 gr. LFN at 1,250 fps. 45 2.1 paid me a visit last April. Having never fired a 480, he was itchin to try it out. After a couple 50 yard bench groups he got a good feel for it. He went out to 200 yards while I spotted for him. Once he got his drop down pat I watch him ring steel for about 15-20 shots. Never missed once. All his rounds landed in a 4-5 inch circle. Dutch4122 gave it a go too. I don't believe he had ever shot out that far with a handgun. He made a few sparks fly too.

[357tex]

I also shoot my handguns off the bench,I start at 25 yds. then if go to 50.I am not as good a shot as some of you all.I do try some at 100 yds. mainly to know what to expect.I must shoot off the bench before I have the guts to shoot at a critter.In my 357's I find a load that does well in all 4 of them.I only have one 44 a md.29 so that makes it more simple.

[44man]

Bass, I do use a holster unless I am stalking or sitting in the stand. Just makes it easier to drag deer or climb into a stand. I finally found one for the 45-70. It is not perfect but it works. It is made for the 14" Contender or Encore with a scope.
Babore it is true that it is the best way to get the same POI and I have never disputed that and is why I get sight settings from Creedmore. However, you are wrong that I finally admitted it! [smilie=1: Every single post I have ever made discloses vertical dispersion issues and it is not the way to get sight settings for off hand.
Now I don't know why but my .475 and 45-70 BFR's hit the same POI and I have been able to hit gallon jugs of water and even empty spray paint cans off hand at 100 yd's after sighting from bags. But my .44 and .45 will not and needs sighted from Creedmore before hunting.
It might be that the rear bag is no impediment to the recoil of the larger guns.
Bass, here is the holster.

[felix]

For a pissola, a bench (or Creedmore: legs, back, etc.) is supposed to support your exact body part (hands), which then are used to support the gun. ... felix

[BABore]

Bass, I do use a holster unless I am stalking or sitting in the stand. Just makes it easier to drag deer or climb into a stand. I finally found one for the 45-70. It is not perfect but it works. It is made for the 14" Contender or Encore with a scope.
Babore it is true that it is the best way to get the same POI and I have never disputed that and is why I get sight settings from Creedmore. However, you are wrong that I finally admitted it! [smilie=1: Every single post I have ever made discloses vertical dispersion issues and it is not the way to get sight settings for off hand.
Now I don't know why but my .475 and 45-70 BFR's hit the same POI and I have been able to hit gallon jugs of water and even empty spray paint cans off hand at 100 yd's after sighting from bags. But my .44 and .45 will not and needs sighted from Creedmore before hunting.
It might be that the rear bag is no impediment to the recoil of the larger guns.
Bass, here is the holster.

Holster Hell! :roll: I got rifle scabbards smaller than that. I think my wife's purse is even smaller.:-D Can you pack a couple venison sammich's in that thing too?:Fire:

[Whitworth]

I shoot with 44man quite frequently. When we bench he likes to support the butt with a sandbag and I use my hands to support the butt of the weapon.

[KCSO]

Lloyd, I'm afraid I am old school. I test from the bench from sandbags at 25, 50 and the best loads are shot at 100 yards. The term combat accuracy is BS and shooting at 50 feet only tells you the gun goes bang. If I carry a gun a field I want to know exactly where it hits at any range I might shoot. If a gun won't group at at least 50 yards it is a belly gun no matter what kind of gun it is. Most modern gun writers have never had to stand on their two hind legs and hold a gun one handed, let alone shoot the same at an 8" circle at 50 yards.

[Lloyd Smale]

some good points here 44 man i agree with your credmore stance. I used to be able to do as good like that as i could off a bench. cant do it anymore because of my back but i can shoot groups as good as off a bench by sitting on the ground with my back supported and the gun clamped between my knees. My poa seems to be much differnt though then off hand. My eyes like alot of guys are failing fast. Loads i used to be able to shoot into 3/4s of an inch are now 1.5 inch. It doesnt matter though as i know those guns and loads can do it so i use it for a test standard. I will take a guy that i know exactly what it is capable off along every range session. then before and after each session ill shoot a couple groups. If im shooting 1.5 inch that day with a 3/4 in capable gun. I use common sense when the gun im shooting shoots 1.5 inch and know the gun and load are better then me. Bottom line is any gun that shoots 2 inch or even a tad more at 25 yards is capable of taking any deer sized game at handgun hunting range. I guess when my eyes get so bad i cant shoot open sights at a 100 ill go to 75 then 50 and then 25 when i get to 25 i guess its time for a scoped lever gun again. 44 man will no doubt agree with this too. You can do harm to yourself benching guns too. A guy tends to put in long session and tend to do it with frustration some days. As some days the guns dont shoot the loads and so day you cant shoot the gun. Forcing yourself to contiue is a fast line to poor shooting habits. Alot of guys too buy something like a 475 and sit on the bench with light loads (if you can call any 475 loads light) and do alot of good for there shooting skills and confidence with the gun but then will blow the whole deal. How? Like any red blooded american that has a fast car or bike or boat. On the way home you have the urge to floor it just once. I do the same. So a guy takes his 475 and loads a clyinder full of bruiser loads that in all reality are out of his league for anything but making noise and absoultley destroys and trigger control hes been practicing. Watch someone doing it once. The first shot is aimed the second is pointed the third is minute of barn door and by the forth and fifted shot im hiding behind the shooting shack! If anyone is guilty of this it was me. When i first started shooting the real BIG bores i would sit at a bench for hours and it was nothing for me to shoot 500 rounds in a day of full power loads. Hell when i was done with that id be flinching with a .22. I learned the hard way with pain and even surgery that slow and steady is the way to learn to shoot. First one who complains that i didnt use paragraphs on this is going to get bitch slapped!!!!! ;)

[45nut]

HA Lloyd! Paragraphs from you are a blessing but in no way mandatory, in fact, it rather shocks us to see them!

An I concur 100% with the big bore handgun rationing, I had a habit of doing the same thing and driving home with empty ammo boxes. Just couldn't stop myself and with my own cast it was even worse because the flinch from the cost of the jacketed ammo was gone.

A few trips driving to Nevada with a few thousand rounds and coming back with all empty brass soon gave way to bringing back ammo since my focus shifted from the range time to the visits with good folks. And although I always had a great time shooting bulls with the guns, shooting the bull was just fine too.

[GP100man]

Good subject & contents , only thing i can add is i`d rather shoot 6 rnds of good mentally prepared for practice , than just pop 50 rnds at cans at 10yds for (practice) !!!!

GP100man:cbpour:

[unclebill]

well dang it, I guess after that lecture I better put this thing on the bench and see if it'll shoot any better than this 100 yd off hand shooting I do. Oh yea did i mention it was really really windy too, and raining, and the sun was glarin in my eyes, and.....and I keep missing that stupid X!

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/44SRH_250gr3crimp19gr2400.jpg

how can you tell if you are hitting that target or not @100 yds.?
spotting scope?
the front sight on any of my revolvers would cover that entire target.

[Glen]

Felix -- Glad you like it. It has served me well over the last several years (and I suspect that it will continue to serve for many more). If you're ever up this way let me know and we'll go burn some powder in the cool mountain air...

[Lloyd Smale]

I could shoot 10 million rounds and still couldnt shoot a sixgun that well off hand at a 100 yards. Hell i probably couldnt even see that orange x at a 100 yards anymore let alone see where i was hitting. Those orange targets wash out for me at anything over 50 yards. To shoot at a 100 yards with open sights i need about a 6 inch black square!! Off hand at a 100 yards id be happy keeping them all on the paper anymore!!

[Whitworth]

how can you tell if you are hitting that target or not @100 yds.?
spotting scope?
the front sight on any of my revolvers would cover that entire target.

Unclebill, he is just holding in the same place for every shot. NOt shooting, spotting and adjusting -- at least that is how I do it.

[unclebill]

i must stink at it
because i just cannot even begin to be able to hold ANYTHING that steady.
i mean if your hand moves 1/100th of an inch between shots it's gonna be way off.
i am not calling B.S. on anybody.
but i just cannot fathom how any human can be that steady standing shooting offhand.
a ransom rest can barely do that with many handguns.

[Whitworth]

It just requires a heck-of-a-lot of practice. Not impossible at all. Have to put the time in, particularly with the big revolvers.

[44man]

I know what you are saying Babore. I can't shoot open sights for crap anymore from the bench. Darn things are to close to my eyes. Creedmore gets them out there.
And I do limit the shots with the big guns even though recoil does not bother me. I can shoot off hand all day but the bench is brutal. I never shoot light loads. I do all of my shooting with what I hunt with unless someone wants to come over and just bust some cans up close. No need for the big guns or hot loads up to 50 yd's for fun. I use the little .44 mag or the .45 for that. Unique or 231 and a light boolit.
I separate fun from serious practice.
Must be something wrong with me though because even if my knuckle is getting beat up or my wrists get sore, trigger control is still there. Extended shooting does not make me change.
I have one habit that sometimes creeps in when I can't hold steady off hand. I will try to make the gun shoot when the sights pass the center and that is always a miss. I have been able to reduce that to almost nothing since shooting the real big guns. Recoil teaches you that it does not work so I just add pressure to the trigger and ignore the sight movement. A miss will only be inches instead of far away.
Large targets off hand at long range are bad too. We shoot at the smallest we can see. Whitworth and I have been able to hold 6" at 100 yd's by using bottles or cans. A large target makes for larger groups.
I do the same with archery. When I tune or sight a bow at 20 yd's, I use a 1" target. As I extend the range, the target only gets large enough to see. Aim small, hit small.

[BABore]

Being able to hit offhand is just the way 44Man says. Don't trip the trigger when the sights wiggle across the bull. It's almost a guaranteed miss. Some old timers taught me that when I was shooting NRA silhoutte. Your going to wobble around. Pick a small spot and try to hold on it. Your sights will make circles or figure 8's around the spot. Just keep applying pressure on the trigger until it breaks. It usually results in a satisfying hit. Once you get that firmly implanted in your brain, then it's all muscle control and toning. Your big circles will start becoming smaller and smaller. Must resist the urge to yank it in.:-D

I still will do it on occasion until I mentally slap myself a few times.[smilie=1:

[44man]

:mrgreen: Two of the fellows that shot IHMSA with us had a billy club hanging from the scope tripod. The spotter always said that his friend better not miss! :drinks:

[unclebill]

It just requires a heck-of-a-lot of practice. Not impossible at all. Have to put the time in, particularly with the big revolvers.

I have only been shooting the big boys for a couple years.
ive got a lot of practice ahead of me!
thats a GOOD thing.:drinks:

[yondering]

Can one of you guys describe the Creedmore position for those of us who are less enlightened?

Man, I wish I had even one handgun that could shoot the groups some of you guys are talking about. 1" at 50 yards or it's not good enough? Makes me wonder if feet have turned into yards all of a sudden. [smilie=1::mrgreen:

Of course, ALL my handguns have iron sights. I don't like red dots or scopes on handguns personally; they don't feel right to me and they add a lot of bulk. The times I've tried them, I didn't shoot any better than iron sights anyway, since I still have pretty good eyes.

[Whitworth]

Here's a 50 yard target that went a hair over an inch. The load is a 420 grain WFN that runs right at 1,350 fps from my custom .475 Linebaugh Super Redhawk. It'll do better than I amcapable of shooting it.......oh, and that's a red dot, not a scope.

The big kickers just require more practice as they punish the shooter!:mrgreen:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/DSC02676.jpg

[44man]

Yondering, go to the post right under this one about rests for handguns. An explanation and even a video about Creedmore.

[cbrick]

Lot's of good thought's and posts here. I agree with 44man in post #12 of this thread, well said.

I scope with a 12X Burris and bench ALL of my handguns while working up and testing loads. I group starting at 150 meters and retest promising loads at 200 meters. The reason is simple, I want to know what the load and the firearm together is really capable of and my eyes are no longer good enough to give me even a vague idea of possible grouping potential at these ranges without the scope. Once the right load for the gun is found the scope comes off and I get sight settings at 50 - 100 - 150 - 200 meters with iron sights (Bo-Mars mostly) in the Creedmore position.

When shooting a match I know by repeated testing with the scope what the firearm/load is doing, if I miss a target I KNOW that "I" missed the target because I have full confidence in the equipment. Repeated testing is important, one good group at any range tells you nothing, will this load in this gun repeat that good group time after time?

For me shooting a match has become pretty difficult because of my eyes. Instead of shooting for a good score most of the match is spent trying to see either sights or target. Because of this most of my shooting these days is shooting a scoped revolver from the bench. There is a great deal of enjoyment for me in getting the right long range revolver cast bullet and load and at the end of day thinking . . . WOW, this thing really shoots.

Testing from the bench is not only important but lucky for me I really love it.

I also agree with 44man on the Ransom Rest. I get better groups from the bench and back when I could still see better groups Creedmore than I ever did wasting time and ammo with a Ransom Rest. Maybe that's just me or perhaps I wasn't using it correctly but I never managed to make it work for me.

Rick

[Glen]

Rick -- I remember years ago, when Bill Bartram told me that he could shoot better groups off of sandbags than he could with a Ransom rest, that at first I thought he was just a blow hard. Then I shot with him and saw that he was telling the truth, and that Ransom Rests really weren't all they were cracked to be. I shoot all my groups off of sandbags (and lately I've been using sandbags that are made from farm tire inner tubes, which are darned near indestructible, they handle magnum revolver cylinder gap blast with impunity!).

[TEXASFIVEGUN]

Lloyd - I don't test or sight in my revolvers from a bench rest. I have a Caldwell HAMMR (different brand but same tool as a Ransom rest). I shoot best from a beach chair (folding chair that putts your butt about 4" off of the ground). I can out shoot the machine rest from my chair. I shoot from 25 yards http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/TEXAS/tn1.jpg to 300 yards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31EEgrQOh04 with all of my handguns. I have won more than a few "cold beers" form people who think you can't hit anything at long range with a handgun. A good 22LR or a good 1911 45acp will do more than they will beleve. A good bigbore revolver will do better.

[Thumbcocker]

I have always been able to shoot better from the Elmer backrest position than from a bench with a handgun. I had read that the way to bench a handgun was to support the wrists and not the gun so that may be part of it. Also when hunting I often shoot with my back against a tree.

When sighting in or load testing I shoot from the backrest postion as demonstrated in Sixguns. Keep in mind that I have never fired a shot in competiton or had a coach so Elmer and Ross Seifried had a big impact on me. Anyway I shoot my best from the backrest postion. Maybe I have been using the bags wrong. I ALWAYS bench long guns.