New CVA 45 Cal. Mountain Rifle

[vrh]

221658Been looking for a CVA 45 Cal. Mountain Rifle for quite some time. I knew that they were rare, but I kept looking.
Found a kit, new in box today. Jumped on it like a doggie and his bone.
Will keep everyone on the building process with pictures.221657

[Fly]

Check the barrel & see if it is a Douglass. If it says made in Spain it most likely is not. There great guns. I have a .50 that I bought the kit in 1979
& still have it. Great rifles.
Fly

[Tasbay]

Hi, I`m new here, Nice find VRH. I managed to pick up a CVA Mountain rifle a while back in 58 calibre from a guy who had lived in Africa and hunted with it he had also taken it to the States competition shooting.
Have a question and hope someone can offer a solution. It shoots beautifully with 120gr Goex 2F, 570 prb, and ticking. One ragged hole stuff at 50mts. My issue is and I hope Fly will chime in, is it throws 6-8 inch groups with home made Black powder at the same distance. I have been making my own Powder for a few years now as Commercial powder is hard to find and we have shipping restrictions on it. My homemade shoots well in my other flintlock and cap lock rifles but not this one, they are 50cal, any suggestions??

One other thing while I think of it , is Potassium Nitrate restricted in the U.S? I see guys buy stump remover and the like to make their powder. Here I just go to the Farm supplies store and get 25kg of Potassium Nitrate for about $45us and a 2kg pack of sulphur for about $10us. That's pretty cheap when you consider Goex 2F sells here when you can find it for $50us a pound tin. It works out I can make 28kg of powder for the same price as a pound of Goex ,I try not to use too much of the Goex!!

[indian joe]

Check the barrel & see if it is a Douglass. If it says made in Spain it most likely is not. There great guns. I have a .50 that I bought the kit in 1979
& still have it. Great rifles.
Fly

Fly
those made in spain CVA barrels were(are still) top notch shooters - douglass might make a difference to resale price but I dont believe it made a difference on the target

[indian joe]

Hi, I`m new here, Nice find VRH. I managed to pick up a CVA Mountain rifle a while back in 58 calibre from a guy who had lived in Africa and hunted with it he had also taken it to the States competition shooting.
Have a question and hope someone can offer a solution. It shoots beautifully with 120gr Goex 2F, 570 prb, and ticking. One ragged hole stuff at 50mts. My issue is and I hope Fly will chime in, is it throws 6-8 inch groups with home made Black powder at the same distance. I have been making my own Powder for a few years now as Commercial powder is hard to find and we have shipping restrictions on it. My homemade shoots well in my other flintlock and cap lock rifles but not this one, they are 50cal, any suggestions??

One other thing while I think of it , is Potassium Nitrate restricted in the U.S? I see guys buy stump remover and the like to make their powder. Here I just go to the Farm supplies store and get 25kg of Potassium Nitrate for about $45us and a 2kg pack of sulphur for about $10us. That's pretty cheap when you consider Goex 2F sells here when you can find it for $50us a pound tin. It works out I can make 28kg of powder for the same price as a pound of Goex ,I try not to use too much of the Goex!!

Are you weighing your 120 grains of homemade? I cant get the density into mine - my measures are about 20% lighter weight of powder so i cut bigger measures to save re adjusting sight settings - strange though ! I have shot CVA's for 30 years and usually they shoot any powder charge pretty well - not usually load sensitive to that extent.

[Tasbay]

Up till now have been doubling the thrown measure IE: flask spout measured for 40gr 2F Goex so have been using 2x a spout full to give equivalent power range, same impact area on target. That means 6x spouts to get the 120gr. If it was a bit inconsistent on the up and down I would just assume powder fluctuations but the CVA is also tossing the balls left and right. Got me perplexed anyway, especially when the 50 Cal's shoot it fine and so does my Zoil Zauve another 58 cal.
Powder is corned by sifting to size and not compressed. Have had arrive today a mini set of electronic scales, figured weighing powder was the next step so will see if that improves things.

[indian joe]

Up till now have been doubling the thrown measure IE: flask spout measured for 40gr 2F Goex so have been using 2x a spout full to give equivalent power range, same impact area on target. That means 6x spouts to get the 120gr. If it was a bit inconsistent on the up and down I would just assume powder fluctuations but the CVA is also tossing the balls left and right. Got me perplexed anyway, especially when the 50 Cal's shoot it fine and so does my Zoil Zauve another 58 cal.
Powder is corned by sifting to size and not compressed. Have had arrive today a mini set of electronic scales, figured weighing powder was the next step so will see if that improves things.

Yeah I am puzzled by this the CVA barrels I have shot have all beeen very unfussy about powder quantity - my 50's I used to shoot 40 grains for 25 yards and just add more as the range increased - saved on sight adjustment - My 54 I started with 120 grains of FF - the ticking patch wouldnt take that all the time so I used a little backer patch on the powder first. You need good ball in these bigger calibres - so weigh and measure ten balls to see how that works . patch size ? if its too small is a headache loading - but yu getting a group with goex ................................ do all your basic stuff - weigh the charge - weigh and measure some balls - pick up patches and make sure shes not holin em - take the rear wedge out of the wood and put a piece of cardboard (manilla folder) between barrel and wood just in front of the forward wedge so it goes in TIGHT - just pack the width of the bottom flat is enough .........I would try all these one at the time - they all things that have made a difference for me at various times when I was getting serious .
keep us posted eh.

[swathdiver]

221658Been looking for a CVA 45 Cal. Mountain Rifle for quite some time. I knew that they were rare, but I kept looking.
Found a kit, new in box today. Jumped on it like a doggie and his bone.
Will keep everyone on the building process with pictures.221657

Cool! I see despite the volumes of recent posts, folks think Douglas made the barrels. Yours, without seeing the barrel markings, was made prior to 1979 because of the patch box used. The barrel likely says "Made In The USA". Whether it has this marking or not, they are all exceptional shooters! Enjoy the build and making smoke when you're done!

[slumlord44]

Good shooters. I have .45, '50, .54, and .58 Mountain Rifles. Its amazing how many of these kits are still around NIB. I bought a couple several years ago and still have a .32 on the bench under construction. Need to get back on it.

[Wayne Smith]

Tasbay

What's the likelihood that your powder simply does not have the initial push to adequately obdurate the boolit while Goex does? It's the only difference I can think of. What is your boolit - pure or alloy?

[evoevil]

Nice, I have 3 kits I built. Love the CVA

[Tasbay]

Tasbay

What's the likelihood that your powder simply does not have the initial push to adequately obdurate the boolit while Goex does? It's the only difference I can think of. What is your boolit - pure or alloy?

Hi Wayne,
That thought had occurred to me though I did put one shot through a Conograph that a guy had at the range a while back out of curiosity and with the equivalent of 120gr in homemade powder it gave a reading of 1570 something FPS so I was pleased with that. The .570 balls I cast are from pure lead from roofing sheet. I have also experimented with .562 balls made from wheel weights with much the same effect as far as spread goes. Now that I think of it also had the same when I shot the .562 balls cast from pure lead which had me change to .570 balls in the first place. The .570 mould came from the guy who sold me the rifle, it was the one he used it just took him a while to find it. Only good thing to come out of this so far is my wife is quite happy , she knows I won`t get another gun till I get the one I`m working on shooting right :D

[Tasbay]

Right may have found the problem but not getting the hacksaw out just yet. Did early no country of origin on barrel CVA Mountain rifles have coned barrels??.My one has defiantly got a coned barrel though its the first Muzzleloader I have come across with a Coned barrel, most I have aren't even really crowned. Was trolling the webb and found a forum discussion about a guy who's Muzzleloader was grouping about 2-3 inch at 50yds then throwing flyers 6-8 inch, very similar to mine though mine will throw flyers further out than that. Turned out his barrel had been Coned and after he had tried everything he could think of cut off 2 inches of the muzzle and crowned it, presto problem fixed. Was at the range yesterday and returned home just frustrated.
Had in the past tried groups with Commercial Goex FF and shot nice tight groups though will admit only shot 2 or 3 groups. Found yesterday Goex was sending flyers as well.

[indian joe]

Right may have found the problem but not getting the hacksaw out just yet. Did early no country of origin on barrel CVA Mountain rifles have coned barrels??.My one has defiantly got a coned barrel though its the first Muzzleloader I have come across with a Coned barrel, most I have aren't even really crowned. Was trolling the webb and found a forum discussion about a guy who's Muzzleloader was grouping about 2-3 inch at 50yds then throwing flyers 6-8 inch, very similar to mine though mine will throw flyers further out than that. Turned out his barrel had been Coned and after he had tried everything he could think of cut off 2 inches of the muzzle and crowned it, presto problem fixed. Was at the range yesterday and returned home just frustrated.
Had in the past tried groups with Commercial Goex FF and shot nice tight groups though will admit only shot 2 or 3 groups. Found yesterday Goex was sending flyers as well.

Tasbay
Are you picking up your patches? For good groups they need to look good enough to use em again - with the black powder smudge dead centre in the shot patch - if they torn at all or cut -------------------------
If you are getting 1570FPS out of a 58 you pushing it some - I would not trust a cotton patch to always stand that - other thing that will give you flyers is a smallish patch and the ball not quite centred - a 58 wants at least a 1&1/2 inch diameter patch - inch and 3/4 would proly be better. If you blowing patches options are 1)linen patch material 2) use a wad over the powder to stop the patch burning out - I used a calico backer patch on the powder in my CVA 54 with heavy loads about 1"diameter but it MUST be put downbore neatly, try a card wad over the powder might be easier. (none of that applies IF your patches are coming out of the bore intact) ......What lube ??? If you been using any kind of a greasy lube (bore butter or whatever) try a switch to moose milk (cutting oil and water 1:4) make the patches wet and just blot them on a piece of rag so they dont bleed water but still a touch damp. Weigh your roundball - I bought commercial cast 54 stuff here one time that would not shoot worth a squirt - 4 to 6 inch groups at 50 off a rest with a barrel that used to do half that at 100 - tried every dang thing else and in the end some Hornady ball fixed it. Theres just some little basic thing not right here. Coned barrel???? or is it just worn from careless use of the ramrod - either one - half to three quarters of an inch trimmed should fix it.

[45-70bpcr]

Check the barrel & see if it is a Douglass. If it says made in Spain it most likely is not. There great guns. I have a .50 that I bought the kit in 1979
& still have it. Great rifles.
Fly

I've seen the early barrels marked "Made in USA" that were rumored to be made by Douglas. How do you identify it as a Douglas?

[Tasbay]

Tasbay
Are you picking up your patches? For good groups they need to look good enough to use em again - with the black powder smudge dead centre in the shot patch - if they torn at all or cut -------------------------
If you are getting 1570FPS out of a 58 you pushing it some - I would not trust a cotton patch to always stand that - other thing that will give you flyers is a smallish patch and the ball not quite centred - a 58 wants at least a 1&1/2 inch diameter patch - inch and 3/4 would proly be better. If you blowing patches options are 1)linen patch material 2) use a wad over the powder to stop the patch burning out - I used a calico backer patch on the powder in my CVA 54 with heavy loads about 1"diameter but it MUST be put downbore neatly, try a card wad over the powder might be easier. (none of that applies IF your patches are coming out of the bore intact) ......What lube ??? If you been using any kind of a greasy lube (bore butter or whatever) try a switch to moose milk (cutting oil and water 1:4) make the patches wet and just blot them on a piece of rag so they dont bleed water but still a touch damp. Weigh your roundball - I bought commercial cast 54 stuff here one time that would not shoot worth a squirt - 4 to 6 inch groups at 50 off a rest with a barrel that used to do half that at 100 - tried every dang thing else and in the end some Hornady ball fixed it. Theres just some little basic thing not right here. Coned barrel???? or is it just worn from careless use of the ramrod - either one - half to three quarters of an inch trimmed should fix it.

indian joe
Yep have been checking the patches, the ones I have found could mostly be used again. browned patch centre of the cloth with star markings from rifling. Outside edges somewhat frayed/ blackened. Patches are cut at the Muzzle. Have tried some filler, Tea leaves , Bread crumbs, double patching . The patches are not cut or burnt through.
For lube have tried Dish wash liquid and water dried on patches in the sun, Olive oil, even 15 w 40 motor oil and spit patch. Powder loads have been between 80 - 120 gr powder both commercial and homemade.
The previous owner of the rifle used it in club shoots and hunting in Africa. He bought the gun to New Zealand with him from Africa. The barrel has defiantly been coned and its not wear from poor ramrod habits. I will try the larger patch, have been seating the ball about 1/8 inch below muzzle and cutting patch. I use Ticking for patch material. Balls are home cast, I`d be struggling to find Cast 58 cal balls anywhere down here.

[indian joe]

indian joe
Yep have been checking the patches, the ones I have found could mostly be used again. browned patch centre of the cloth with star markings from rifling. Outside edges somewhat frayed/ blackened.

####Thats ok - so long as they sound inside - frayed edges is ok

Patches are cut at the Muzzle. Have tried some filler, Tea leaves , Bread crumbs, double patching . The patches are not cut or burnt through.

####If youre single patches are sound and not burnt/torn - forget the fillers -

For lube have tried Dish wash liquid and water dried on patches in the sun, Olive oil, even 15 w 40 motor oil and spit patch.

####I would not rate any of those as a good patch lube - definitely not the dishwash and engine oil - go find a machine shop someplace and cadge a cupful of cutting oil (soluble oil that they use in their coolant pumps on lathe and milling machine) make up some moose milk and try it at least

Powder loads have been between 80 - 120 gr powder both commercial and homemade.

####Thats a good solid load but nothing out of line - patches are standing up ok

The previous owner of the rifle used it in club shoots and hunting in Africa. He bought the gun to New Zealand with him from Africa. The barrel has defiantly been coned and its not wear from poor ramrod habits.

####ok thats another box ticked -

I will try the larger patch, have been seating the ball about 1/8 inch below muzzle and cutting patch.

####That should be plenty big enough patch - easy see by pulling one after you cut it and measure

I use Ticking for patch material. Balls are home cast, I`d be struggling to find Cast 58 cal balls anywhere down here.

####Yeah same here - find a powder scale and measure a dozen to the same weight and shoot another test group - ticks another box

####Another thought - do you wash your ticking before you use it?? Always wash it - they put some kinda gluey gunk (call it size) in it to give a smoother feel when it comes off the roll - I iron mine after washing - makes it easier to cut patches -
I'm gonna blame youre lube first

####then look at that coned barrel - I would put in the lathe - take half an inch off it and recrown it - shoot some more

In case you wondering I am just across the ditch from you - 6 hrs west of sydney - are you north or south ? n which side wet side or dry side

[Beagle333]

That looks like a fun kit. Now I want one! :wink:

[Fly]

If the barrel said made in USA it is a Douglas. OK you are saying you corn your powder? Corning is pressing it into a puck under high pressure,
then letting it dry, then breaking the pucks up into chunks about the size of peas then grinding them into grains, then running the grains threw
the appropriate size screen for 2ffg or 3fffg powder. If you are just wetting your meal powder with a binder included & pushing it threw a screen then
letting it dry you are not truly corning it. You are making screened powder. Screen powder can be very fast but it is very light because it is not
as dense. That's why you must use so much more volume to get the weight the same. Screen powder burns much dirtier than corned also.

Fly

[Tasbay]

####Yeah same here - find a powder scale and measure a dozen to the same weight and shoot another test group - ticks another box

####Another thought - do you wash your ticking before you use it?? Always wash it - they put some kinda gluey gunk (call it size) in it to give a smoother feel when it comes off the roll - I iron mine after washing - makes it easier to cut patches -
I'm gonna blame youre lube first

####then look at that coned barrel - I would put in the lathe - take half an inch off it and recrown it - shoot some more

In case you wondering I am just across the ditch from you - 6 hrs west of sydney - are you north or south ? n which side wet side or dry side

Oh an Aussie!!. I`m in South Island , pretty much in the Middle , neither wet side or dry side.

Ticking: Yep wash it and Iron it before Lube. Spoke to the guy who sold it to me today, He`s in top of North. He was using Bees wax and soluble paraffin, ticking, 570 Balls, 60gr & 120gr FFF charges. Reckoned it was one of the most accurate Muzzleloaders he`s had. Took it with him to the U.S.A and Bisley England, Don`t know what he was doing with it at Bisley. Interesting he said he had built it from a Kit but didn`t remember Coning the barrel.
Rifling is Crisp and clean / well defined all way to about 1 1/2 inches from muzzle then fades away to nothing about 1/8 inch from muzzle tip.

[arcticap]

If the barrel said made in USA it is a Douglas.

I believe that the Douglas barrels do not have "made in USA" stamped on them.
But rather the Spanish made barrels would have Spanish proof marks on them as required by Spanish law.
USA made barrels are not required to be proofed.

This sales ad for an old CVA Mountain Rifle states: "There are no Spanish proof marks on it so it was made in the U.S.A."
And their photos basically only show a serial number, CVA company identification, and its caliber stamped on the barrel.
https://www.riverjunction.com/z-Sold-CVA-Mountain-Rifle-with-Douglas-Barrel_p_3989.html

[indian joe]

Oh an Aussie!!. I`m in South Island , pretty much in the Middle , neither wet side or dry side.

Ticking: Yep wash it and Iron it before Lube. Spoke to the guy who sold it to me today, He`s in top of North. He was using Bees wax and soluble paraffin, ticking, 570 Balls, 60gr & 120gr FFF charges. Reckoned it was one of the most accurate Muzzleloaders he`s had. Took it with him to the U.S.A and Bisley England, Don`t know what he was doing with it at Bisley. Interesting he said he had built it from a Kit but didn`t remember Coning the barrel.
Rifling is Crisp and clean / well defined all way to about 1 1/2 inches from muzzle then fades away to nothing about 1/8 inch from muzzle tip.

mmmm dont like the sound of that muzzle coning job - never done one but I thought the trick was just take a couple thou off the top of the lands - lookin at my CVA hawken you could take about 15 mm off the end of the barrel before you interfered with the sight dovetail and the forward screw on the barrel under rib. That much would be easy - recrown it and see how it goes ? Otherwise you have to recut the sight dovetail and that screw underneath becomes a problem -- 58 barrel not very thick !
I had three CVA's where that screw had actually dented the rifling - (from Owen Guns in QLD - I reckon he was buying job lots of quality control rejects from Spain - sold em cheap - I got no complaints he was good to deal with and it all worked out good!) These things will shoot - no question about it - I am halfway through building a nice little flinter around a 45 CVA Kentucky barrel - nice curly maple stock, davis single set trigger, L&R Manton lock - bought the kit off a bloke to get that barrel.
Curious - what wood are you using for charcoal for yr powder? getting a clean burn or no?
Lube - I keep harping on that - my first venture into muzzleloaders I was using green dishwash based lube - could not get a ten shot group for love nor money - first four or five or maybe six would be nice then we got the wanders - group would open up - I would blame meself for losing the plot - I got a copy of Sam Fadalas blackpowder manual and started over - powder charge was right - I was using good swaged ball - calico patch was loading a bit easy but not burnt - he was strong on the moose milk lube so I tried that - bingo!! my problem vanished - been using it ever since - the first major match I went to that combo got me a second on countback from one of the top shots in the country. Moose milk is the best range lube - not the best for hunting - need something like your man from Africa used. Always with blackpowder needs enough lube to keep the fouling soft all the way to the muzzle - so more will just about always be better than less. Anyway keep us posted when you get this rifle going properly. I'd like to know what was the problem.

[Fly]

Yes if no markings it indeed a Douglas barrel.

Fly

[oldracer]

I have the first of two Hawken rifles made for CVA and the first "Mountain Rifle made for them ( all made at end of 1970 and beginning of 1971) as a test to see how they would work and how fancy things needed to be. All 3 have Douglas barrels and all are just amazing shooters. The mountain rifle was made for woods walks and wood runs and is super light and can be loaded for 5 or 6 shots without having to wipe after each shot. Doug Knoell made them for CVA's owner and they are dated 1970/1971 in the fore end under the barrel. Note these are not kits. About the only difference is mine has a very fancy nose cap where the kits and production guns are plain. You will surely love yours.
John

[45-70bpcr]

Yes if no markings it indeed a Douglas barrel.

Fly

What are you basing that on? This came from another forum from the guy that said he developed the CVA Mountain rifle and built the first kit. He doesn't mention Douglas. I've read it 100 places too but are they all just repeating? I'm so confused.

"Guys,

Here's the straight story on the CVA Mountain Rifle. I was in charge of the development and initial production of the gun and Kit (built the first one ever to write the instructions). The guns were originally assembled in the U.S. from American cut maple stocks and Spanish parts. The very early barrels were conventional button rifled, but were changed to a unique extruded barrel was rifle and formed in a special high pressure die in Spain and shipped to the U.S. for final crowning and fitting of the breech. After a few years, the guns and kits were fully made in Spain.

The original prototype was made by the late Don Kammerer, a noted custom rifle maker from Indiana, also a great shot. It was he who shot the rifles at the national championship in Friendship Indiana. He challenged a writer who had been tough on CVA (with some justification) to a match - the writer's custom target gun of choice against the Mountian Rifle. Don shot his target with 5 different rifles and the writer used his custom gun. Don's target was better due to the writer's flyer which ruined the group. Don offered to let the guy fire a 6th shoot discounting the flyer. The guy's best 5 shots fractionally edged Don's group, but the point was made that those mountain rifles could really shoot. It was a big deal at the time. The range was closed for the match and a large crowd gathered. Great PR for CVA.

If you can find a good older version with the maple stock you might have a real good shooter. The gun wasn't a copy of any particular original, but Don built a very good compromise between authentic, yet easy to assemble, especially as a kit. I still have the first one ever built from a kit.

Reverend Chase"

[indian joe]

What are you basing that on? This came from another forum from the guy that said he developed the CVA Mountain rifle and built the first kit. He doesn't mention Douglas. I've read it 100 places too but are they all just repeating? I'm so confused.

"Guys,

Here's the straight story on the CVA Mountain Rifle. I was in charge of the development and initial production of the gun and Kit (built the first one ever to write the instructions). The guns were originally assembled in the U.S. from American cut maple stocks and Spanish parts. The very early barrels were conventional button rifled, but were changed to a unique extruded barrel was rifle and formed in a special high pressure die in Spain and shipped to the U.S. for final crowning and fitting of the breech. After a few years, the guns and kits were fully made in Spain.

The original prototype was made by the late Don Kammerer, a noted custom rifle maker from Indiana, also a great shot. It was he who shot the rifles at the national championship in Friendship Indiana. He challenged a writer who had been tough on CVA (with some justification) to a match - the writer's custom target gun of choice against the Mountian Rifle. Don shot his target with 5 different rifles and the writer used his custom gun. Don's target was better due to the writer's flyer which ruined the group. Don offered to let the guy fire a 6th shoot discounting the flyer. The guy's best 5 shots fractionally edged Don's group, but the point was made that those mountain rifles could really shoot. It was a big deal at the time. The range was closed for the match and a large crowd gathered. Great PR for CVA.

If you can find a good older version with the maple stock you might have a real good shooter. The gun wasn't a copy of any particular original, but Don built a very good compromise between authentic, yet easy to assemble, especially as a kit. I still have the first one ever built from a kit.

Reverend Chase"

at the risk of starting a riot
I believe the alleged superiority of the CVA Douglas barrels over early vintage Spanish made barrels is mostly a myth - something that is more to do with wishful thinking and allegiance tthe flag than it is reality (that ought to do it :grin:) - seriously - I never owned a mountain rifle by time I got there they were gone - but an excellent article by a well respected writer in our local shooters journal "The 54 Calibre Big Bore Mountain Rifle" - in 2 parts, was what got me into muzzle loading. I settled for a Kentucky kit while I searched for that mountain rifle (never did find it!) but I got a couple of 54 hawken barrels off a dealer for 50bucks each and a missouri river kit gun to hang them on. along the way i sold the little kentucky - it was doing well but there were custom built guns popping up allover and a my gun looked kinda amateurish with its cheap two part stock. Bought me a CVA pennsylvania rifle 50 cal - the only one I ever saw out here, I converted the percussion to flint (just alittle CVA flint lock) and was doin really well - that was the best rifle I ever had in my hands and I sold it thinking I could do better - Green mountain barrel, Davis trigger, durrs egg lock didnt come close to the CVA !! I bought a project stock and built up one of the 54 hawkens, have bought another kentucky kit just to get the barrel to build a little flinter in 45 - son has a 45 frontier - we have had 7 CVA barrels all 87 branded (1987 make) Spanish manufacture -- and -----Reverend Chase----- they all have been "real good shooters" .... the couple that I have taken the trouble to wring out properly have been exceptional - right up there with the best. If a douglass is better (maybe it is) I doubt there is more than one rifleman in a hundred good enough to demonstrate the difference on paper. There were other minor issues with some locks - some of the kentuckys had a cheap and nasty bridleless lock on them - there were problems with the long sear locks bending the sear nose. I understand you guys being loyal to made in the USA - applaud it in fact but those spanish made barrels were good!!!

[Fly]

Well I guess I,m wrong. You have hands on knowledge & I have what others have told me which I thought was correct. I do have a question though
you being the most knowledgeable. I bought my kit Mountain Rifle in the middle of 1978. It has no markings on barrel, so what barrel would be most likely for
mine to have? Oh mine is a .50 cal

Fly

[45-70bpcr]

Well I guess I,m wrong. You have hands on knowledge & I have what others have told me which I thought was correct. I do have a question though
you being the most knowledgeable. I bought my kit Mountain Rifle in the middle of 1978. It has no markings on barrel, so what barrel would be most likely for
mine to have? Oh mine is a .50 cal

Fly

I sure don't know that you are wrong. I've seen just what you said many times. The quote I posted from Reverend Chase is not me and from another forum. I have zero first hand knowledge so please don't think I was correcting you. I just really had the hots for one of the early Mt. Rifles. The more I read the more I wanted the one with 4 screw patch box and octagon ferrules USA marked barrel. I believe they were 1978 ish like yours fly? They don't turn up often and go for a premium. As I read more about the barrels I saw conflicting info. Sorry if I confused anyone with my posts.

[Fly]

Now I,m confused? (wink) I would like to know too!

Fly

[mooman76]

Since the barrels(some of them) were made in Spain but not finished with breech plug until after they were shipped to the US, they would not have proof marks. I'm to the mind of if it shoots good, it shoots good, no point in arguing over where it was made. It was just the best production gun CVA ever sold either way.

[Tasbay]

mmmm dont like the sound of that muzzle coning job - never done one but I thought the trick was just take a couple thou off the top of the lands - lookin at my CVA hawken you could take about 15 mm off the end of the barrel before you interfered with the sight dovetail and the forward screw on the barrel under rib. That much would be easy - recrown it and see how it goes ? Otherwise you have to recut the sight dovetail and that screw underneath becomes a problem -- 58 barrel not very thick !
I had three CVA's where that screw had actually dented the rifling - (from Owen Guns in QLD - I reckon he was buying job lots of quality control rejects from Spain - sold em cheap - I got no complaints he was good to deal with and it all worked out good!) These things will shoot - no question about it - I am halfway through building a nice little flinter around a 45 CVA Kentucky barrel - nice curly maple stock, davis single set trigger, L&R Manton lock - bought the kit off a bloke to get that barrel.
Curious - what wood are you using for charcoal for yr powder? getting a clean burn or no?
Lube - I keep harping on that - my first venture into muzzleloaders I was using green dishwash based lube - could not get a ten shot group for love nor money - first four or five or maybe six would be nice then we got the wanders - group would open up - I would blame meself for losing the plot - I got a copy of Sam Fadalas blackpowder manual and started over - powder charge was right - I was using good swaged ball - calico patch was loading a bit easy but not burnt - he was strong on the moose milk lube so I tried that - bingo!! my problem vanished - been using it ever since - the first major match I went to that combo got me a second on countback from one of the top shots in the country. Moose milk is the best range lube - not the best for hunting - need something like your man from Africa used. Always with blackpowder needs enough lube to keep the fouling soft all the way to the muzzle - so more will just about always be better than less. Anyway keep us posted when you get this rifle going properly. I'd like to know what was the problem.

Ok looks like I will be finding / making some Moose Milk to try. The Hack saw is a last resort, have other smoke poles to use till I get this sorted.... Some say that's half the fun but I`m getting a bit over it!!.
Charcoal for my homemade powder is from what we call Crack Willow, cracks and sparks when you burn it. Introduced by the English and grows near pretty well every river in NZ.Not sure why the introduced it but I have wondered if it was for producing gunpowder Have tried a couple of other willows as well but the Crack I have found to be best. Has a bit more fouling than Goex ($72 lb) but at $75nz for 28kg I`m quite happy to swab the barrel between shots. Sulphur and Potassium nitrate from a stock / farm agent. Probably not the most pure but it works just fine and pretty fast burning.
Had a look at the end of barrel photos put up in Articap`s post of an old CVA add. End of my barrel looks nothing like that, that's crowned. Mine you would just see a hint of rifling at the deepest point of view. Must admit the Hacksaw is looking more and more like therapy :)

[Fly]

I do not think any here are in argument but discussion. My gun shoots great, it was the first muzzle loader I started
with. I have bought many since. But it would be nice to know where it was made & if this Douglas barrel thing is true?

Fly

[indian joe]

I do not think any here are in argument but discussion. My gun shoots great, it was the first muzzle loader I started
with. I have bought many since. But it would be nice to know where it was made & if this Douglas barrel thing is true?

Fly

Fly
My Spanish made CVA barrels have proof marks on the right hand flat a little ahead of the nipple drum - and the makers mark on the other side flat between vertical and horizontal - some of these are marked Conneticut Valley Arms. Inc. Black Powder only 54 cal. (two lines above one another) Spain - then the model mark (Hawken) is like an afterthought in different lettering others Dikar Made in Spain - same lettering machine as the CVA ones. All have been very accurate barrels and not load sensitive at all. These are 87 serial number prefix so I assume they are 1987 vintage made.?

[Flintlock1812]

Congrats! Have fun with the build.

[Tasbay]

indian joe,
Have had a wet day here, never a good thing when something gun related is bothering me. It was off to the shed. Cut off 15mm of barrel, squared and crowned it. The rifling is defined at that point (can always take more off if have too). Speaking with the previous owner who built it from a kit didn`t ever remember coning it. Stated he built it and shot it as it was , was very accurate. The ramrod with it seems to be fiberglass or something similar, I`m now of the mind it is/was wear at the muzzle from rod use. Also changed the wedge pins to new ones not as tight fitting that can be installed by hand and a hammer not required. Have found some Ballistol and made some Moose Milk 1:6 mix dried patches.
Now its just wait for the rain to stop, flooding and road closures, ain`t winter great!!

[indian joe]

indian joe,
Have had a wet day here, never a good thing when something gun related is bothering me. It was off to the shed. Cut off 15mm of barrel, squared and crowned it. The rifling is defined at that point (can always take more off if have too). Speaking with the previous owner who built it from a kit didn`t ever remember coning it. Stated he built it and shot it as it was , was very accurate. The ramrod with it seems to be fiberglass or something similar, I`m now of the mind it is/was wear at the muzzle from rod use. Also changed the wedge pins to new ones not as tight fitting that can be installed by hand and a hammer not required. Have found some Ballistol and made some Moose Milk 1:6 mix dried patches.
Now its just wait for the rain to stop, flooding and road closures, ain`t winter great!!

That (flooding) would be a welcome change - we having a drought here!
I detest those fibre rods - I reckon they pick up grit - if ya lean on em real hard they will flex sideways against the rifling - they too fat to carry a muzzle protector easily - had a couple of em early days - another thing to throw away is any kind of muzzle protector with parallel sides - have seen a barrel with a distinctive ring mark from a plastic rod guide that was not tapered.
I just use a steel 1/4 or 5/16 inch rod - tap a thread in the end for your jag and brush, make a small brass guide with 45 degree taper on so it only contacts the end where the barrel is crowned - I cut about 3/4 inch off the under rib and the steel rod lives on the rifle - the bore guide fills the space where you cut the rib short - hang it out about a half inch past the muzzle end - can get fancy if you like and make a little lump at other end to hold in the retaining clip in the rod channel (the little spring thats on the front lock screw)
You like those dried patches eh! .....shooting a string at the range..... running it damp works better I reckon - I shot 25 for score at our club last sunday - damp patches, no cleaning - last one loaded as easy as the first - I bet I could have shot a hundred and stayed on target without having to clean the barrel. I like your idea for hunting tho!
Something else you might try, when you get this rifle sorted out some - my CVA's are single wedge guns so a bit different but one 54 in particular I put a couple layers of yellow card (cut a manilla folder) right at the front between the barrel and the forend wood - just a piece about an inch square on the bottom flat and the two angled flats - might take two pieces - enough to make the wedge good and tight - might even have to lean on it to get the wedge in - your rifle with the two wedges I would want the front wedge tight rear one loose - gives you two distinct points of contact and puts even tension on the barrel - might not do anything either - maybe though? I have seen more than one bloke over here with a hook barrel gun glass bedded at front and rear - (they dont talk about it! its not the blokes in the bottom half of the scoreboard either).
Well I will try to stop the next lot of rain before it gets to you guys - sure could use a couple inches here .
Joe

[Tasbay]

That (flooding) would be a welcome change - we having a drought here!
I detest those fibre rods - I reckon they pick up grit - if ya lean on em real hard they will flex sideways against the rifling - they too fat to carry a muzzle protector easily - had a couple of em early days - another thing to throw away is any kind of muzzle protector with parallel sides - have seen a barrel with a distinctive ring mark from a plastic rod guide that was not tapered.
I just use a steel 1/4 or 5/16 inch rod - tap a thread in the end for your jag and brush, make a small brass guide with 45 degree taper on so it only contacts the end where the barrel is crowned - I cut about 3/4 inch off the under rib and the steel rod lives on the rifle - the bore guide fills the space where you cut the rib short - hang it out about a half inch past the muzzle end - can get fancy if you like and make a little lump at other end to hold in the retaining clip in the rod channel (the little spring thats on the front lock screw)
You like those dried patches eh! .....shooting a string at the range..... running it damp works better I reckon - I shot 25 for score at our club last sunday - damp patches, no cleaning - last one loaded as easy as the first - I bet I could have shot a hundred and stayed on target without having to clean the barrel. I like your idea for hunting tho!
Something else you might try, when you get this rifle sorted out some - my CVA's are single wedge guns so a bit different but one 54 in particular I put a couple layers of yellow card (cut a manilla folder) right at the front between the barrel and the forend wood - just a piece about an inch square on the bottom flat and the two angled flats - might take two pieces - enough to make the wedge good and tight - might even have to lean on it to get the wedge in - your rifle with the two wedges I would want the front wedge tight rear one loose - gives you two distinct points of contact and puts even tension on the barrel - might not do anything either - maybe though? I have seen more than one bloke over here with a hook barrel gun glass bedded at front and rear - (they dont talk about it! its not the blokes in the bottom half of the scoreboard either).
Well I will try to stop the next lot of rain before it gets to you guys - sure could use a couple inches here .
Joe

Back from the range and a Happy man. One inch groups at 50yds and with over 30 shots fired not a single flyer. Dry patch Ballistol, .570 ball, 120gr homemade powder, bruised shoulder...……...

[swheeler]

Nice find, congratulations!