1885 hi wall Uberti versus Pedersoli

[indian joe]

Any thoughts on a comparison of Italian 1885's???????

[Tatume]

Pedersoli has a reputation for producing accurate barrels. Both produce good rifles.

[KCSO]

I have one of each in 45-70 and I am not a good enough shot to tell the difference either one will bust a small pumpkin at 300 yards. Neither one will do the magic inch off the bench at 100 but that is mostly my eyes.

[marlinman93]

Both great guns, so I'd choose the one that looks the best. If they look identical, then the lower priced one.

[sharpsguy]

They ARE identical. Pedersoli makes both of them.

[Tatume]

They ARE identical. Pedersoli makes both of them.

That doesn't make them the same. Uberti is free to set their own specifications, which may differ from Pedersoli.

[sharpsguy]

The external level of finish may differ, but Pedersoli makes all of them, in the same factory.

[indian joe]

The external level of finish may differ, but Pedersoli makes all of them, in the same factory.

That would make sense - somebody told me Uberti does the wood for pedersolis
Thanks for the replys.

[NSB]

The external level of finish may differ, but Pedersoli makes all of them, in the same factory.

Correct.

[rfd]

yep, one manufacturer and different rebranding. like lyman, DGW and cabelas trad ml rifles - all made by investarms.

[indian joe]

yep, one manufacturer and different rebranding. like lyman, DGW and cabelas trad ml rifles - all made by investarms.

So who makes Uberti's 1976 rifle ?? is that an undercover pedersoli too?

[country gent]

If possible look over the 2 rifles and handle them. Look at quality of the wood, fit, finish, and smoothness of operation. Read up on them also ( the browning 1885 is actually a different action than the originals). Check different web sites and if possible the likes dislikes, or postings by buyers. If possible check the bore and chamber with a bore scope, here look for rough areas, pay attention to the leade for evenness around the bore.

Even among the same make and model small diffrences in wood size, length of pull, the flow of the surfaces can make a big difference in what "feels / looks" right to you. Same with barrels contours small differences can really affect your perception. Handle them and see. Research them and find out any issues.

[bolivor]

I believe Pedersoli makes 74 sharps for Uberti.Uberti furnisher receivers to Pedersoli for their hi-wall.Pedersoli finished the receiver and put their barrel and wood on it.Pedersoli comes with a single set trigger and cost a little over $2200.Uberti has a double set trigger as an option and cost a little over $1200

[marlinman93]

Pedersoli 1885's are impossible to find too! Plenty of Uberti 1885's though, and all sorts of calibers and configurations.

[bigted]

So tagging on more info here concerning the ped/uberti hiwall's.

How close do they conform to the Browning/Winchester original action?

I know all about the new japchesters

[pertnear]

Concerning the ped/uberti hiwall's & lowall's, is it possible to just buy the actions? Are they as strong as a Ruger #1? Are they only suitable for "vintage" calibers?

TIA

[Chill Wills]

So tagging on more info here concerning the ped/uberti hiwall's.

How close do they conform to the Browning/Winchester original action?

I know all about the new japchesters

They follow the pattern so they are basically a clone of a true Winchester Singleshot.
Parts interchangeability is hit and miss. ...which is true of most of the makers and even Winchester on some of it.

[oldred]

How close do they conform to the Browning/Winchester original action?

Actually the original Browning is quite different from the Winchester version, Winchester used Browning's ingenious falling block/floating hammer idea (after buying the patent) and completely redesigned it into the 1885 that we know today. Except for a similar outward appearance and that floating hammer idea almost nothing in the original Browning and the original 1885 by Winchester is the same. As for the Ped/Ubertis they are nearly identical to the original Winchester in almost every way with about the only notable difference being that they use a hybrid main/lever spring system that utilizes both a coil hammer spring and the flat spring, the original Winchesters used either a coil or a flat spring but I don't think they ever built a rifle that used both like the imports do.

[bigted]

I for one would really like to see close up photo's of the true original hiwall model that Mr Browning had before Winchester produced what we now know as the model of 1885.

[indian joe]

I for one would really like to see close up photo's of the true original hiwall model that Mr Browning had before Winchester produced what we now know as the model of 1885.

Was there really such a thing? I have read stuff saying winchester bought Brownings designs but it was winchester engineers that did the legwork to build functional firearms from some of his designs - we dont know - we were not there but the timeline on some of em favours that explanation. I had an original low wall in 44/40 - if Winchester changed the Browning design to arrive at that rifle I say they improved it .

[RedlegEd]

Actually the original Browning is quite different from the Winchester version, Winchester used Browning's ingenious falling block/floating hammer idea (after buying the patent) and completely redesigned it into the 1885 that we know today. Except for a similar outward appearance and that floating hammer idea almost nothing in the original Browning and the original 1885 by Winchester is the same. As for the Ped/Ubertis they are nearly identical to the original Winchester in almost every way with about the only notable difference being that they use a hybrid main/lever spring system that utilizes both a coil hammer spring and the flat spring, the original Winchesters used either a coil or a flat spring but I don't think they ever built a rifle that used both like the imports do.

Hi. I've got two of the Uberti 1885s in .45-70, and two Browning (Miroku) B78/1885s (.45-70 & .30-06.) Another notable difference in the Italian model is they return to half cock upon closing the action, whereas the Brownings will remain at full cock (I'm guessing the Winnie 1885 does as well.)

As to the OPs original question...my Uberti's are both real shooters. I've put an MVA #130 rear tang sight on one, and I'm putting a Shaver Economy Soule on the other (globe front sights w/changeable inserts on both.)

Ed

[lotech]

I don't know who makes either, but would assume a high wall with a Winchester (or Browning) logo would retain at least a slightly higher resale value.

[oldred]

Hi. I've got two of the Uberti 1885s in .45-70, and two Browning (Miroku) B78/1885s (.45-70 & .30-06.) Another notable difference in the Italian model is they return to half cock upon closing the action, whereas the Brownings will remain at full cock (I'm guessing the Winnie 1885 does as well.)

As to the OPs original question...my Uberti's are both real shooters. I've put an MVA #130 rear tang sight on one, and I'm putting a Shaver Economy Soule on the other (globe front sights w/changeable inserts on both.)

Ed

The Miroku Browning/Winchester is a whole different animal to the originals as it is a totally different action inside and bears only a passing resemblance on the outside, extremely well built and very fine rifles but very different to the originals, some original 1885s did go to half cock upon closing but the vast majority were made to go to full cock. The original Browning single shot design that Winchester bought from Browning was quite different still but relatively few were built at Browning's Utah shop before Winchester bought the design.

As a bit of a side note Browning, due to a misunderstanding of the patent sale terms, continued to produce his version of the rifle even after selling the design to Winchester. When Winchester learned of this they quickly had to explain to him that after he sold the design he was no longer allowed to build and sell them! Of course Browning and Winchester continued to remain on good terms and the rest is history.

[oldred]

Was there really such a thing? I have read stuff saying winchester bought Brownings designs but it was winchester engineers that did the legwork to build functional firearms from some of his designs - we dont know - we were not there but the timeline on some of em favours that explanation. I had an original low wall in 44/40 - if Winchester changed the Browning design to arrive at that rifle I say they improved it .

Yes there certainly was an original Browning SS rifle and in fact that's how the 1885 came to be! When Winchester saw an example of this rifle they were so impressed by it's ingenious operating principle that Thomas G. Bennett, Vice-President and General Manager of Winchester at the time, hopped on a train and sped off to Utah territory (a big deal back in those days!) in search of the builder of these rifles!



if Winchester changed the Browning design to arrive at that rifle I say they improved it .


The original was relatively crude and had several areas in need of improving, most notably the 90 deg. vertical breech block that was prone to headspacing problems. Also the lock system was overly simplistic and actually a bit crude but bear in mind this was the very first design by Browning who was barely out of his teens at that time! Then we must consider that these were to be built mostly by hand using only the very basic tools and crude machinery they had to work with and no electricity, remember this was in Ogden city Utah territory in the late 1870's!

This is the original Browning design patent drawings that Winchester eventually bought and turned into the 1885 we are familiar with today.

221890

The differences in Browning's design and Winchester's model 1885 version are many and the completely
redesigned workings are easy to see.

221891

[indian joe]

Hi. I've got two of the Uberti 1885s in .45-70, and two Browning (Miroku) B78/1885s (.45-70 & .30-06.) Another notable difference in the Italian model is they return to half cock upon closing the action, whereas the Brownings will remain at full cock (I'm guessing the Winnie 1885 does as well.)

As to the OPs original question...my Uberti's are both real shooters. I've put an MVA #130 rear tang sight on one, and I'm putting a Shaver Economy Soule on the other (globe front sights w/changeable inserts on both.)

Ed

Thanks ED - yeah lookin for some fedback on how the Uberti shoots compared to Pedersoli - I have a Uberti 1876 that is coming along nice - dunno whose barrel but it looks good.
The original 85 low wall we had stayed at full cock when you closed the action - had heard there were some 1885's that didnt . That 85 was pretty slick for a single shot - about as quick as a small frame martini.

[BlackpowderSweden]

Uberti made Highwalls many years before Pedersoli made theirs.
I have a Uberti Highwall 40-65 Special Sporting made in 2003, Pedersoli started their Highwall production much later.
Pedersoli started by buying the actions from Uberti, making the rest them selves. Don´t now about it today though?
I think the Ubertis were more set to make an accurate copy of the old models, vs Pedersoli making a competitive shooter by tweaking stock, barrel and chamering, weight, set trigger and so on....
So if you want to compete, the Pedersoli is probably better.
My Uberti shoots superfine and I have won several champinonships with it.
I have made a new stock for it with shotgun but and higher comb for a better prone shooting position.

[Chill Wills]

As for the Ped/Ubertis they are nearly identical to the original Winchester in almost every way with about the only notable difference being that they use a hybrid main/lever spring system that utilizes both a coil hammer spring and the flat spring, the original Winchesters used either a coil or a flat spring but I don't think they ever built a rifle that used both like the imports do.

Oldred, I did not know that. I have several friends from the silhouette matches that have rebuilt or re-barreled Uberti's. I will have to ask to see them. I am trying to picture how the coil spring is setup in the Uberti. Interesting.

[oldred]

It's a pretty good setup IMO, but then that's just me.

Here's a parts diagram of the Uberti,

222361

Basically they just use the normal coil spring and standard hammer for that type spring which doesn't have the "horn" on the bottom of the hammer for the flat spring to contact but then also use the flat spring for the lever instead of Winchester's coil and plunger lever spring. I could be wrong but I don't think Winchester ever built an 1885 that utilized both the coil and flat springs like the imports do but that setup seems to work just fine.

BTW, I used that duel spring system on the HighWalls I built, I wanted a coil spring type hammer and using the flat spring seemed like a good idea for the lever so when I discovered that Urberti was doing it that way that cinched it for me.

[Chill Wills]

One picture is worth a thousands words!


That spring looks good and is not what I thought it would be. I was thinking a single coil in another location to push the hammer but that looks smart the way they did it. I don't remember the name of the pin the double coil is on. IT is a split pin I think and I have broken an original and turned one up to replace it. My replacement did not use the split, I just made a close fit and it has not moved.

[oldred]

That coil spring and hammer are identical to what Winchester went to after they changed the design from the flat spring but they also started using a spring and plunger for the lever instead of just simply leaving the flat spring, or at least that is my understanding. Over the years there have been 1885s converted to the coil, simple enough just cut off the "horn" from the bottom of the hammer and drill a couple of small holes in the back of the breech block for the spring ends to attach and the flat spring can then be used for the lever only.

This brings me to a question I have often thought about and that is what possible detrimental effects might that spring have being mounted to the bottom of the barrel like that? By going to the coil spring for the hammer and the coil/plunger lever spring setup any pressure on the barrel would then be eliminated, of course it really doesn't appear that the flat spring has ever been a problem by attaching to the barrel so I am assuming it makes little or no real difference.

[Dusty Ed]

Benett was Winchester's son inlaw He went out to Utah an bought the whole she bang for $8000.00 , Browning had manufactured about 800 rifles but they didn't stop building rifles after they sold to Winchester, they had to explain to Browning that had bought everything an the Manufacturing rights.

[oldred]

Benett was Winchester's son inlaw He went out to Utah an bought the whole she bang for $8000.00 , Browning had manufactured about 800 rifles but they didn't stop building rifles after they sold to Winchester, they had to explain to Browning that had bought everything an the Manufacturing rights.

Those things actually come up for sale from time to time, this one is already gone but it's the second one I have seen for sale in the last few months,

Here is the Grand Old Papa of Winchesters model 1885,

http://sellantiquearms.com/shop/j-m-browning-rifle-102/

Quite similar on the outside to the 1885 but very different on the inside, however the ingenious design of the floating hammer falling block was born with this rifle.

[Chill Wills]

Oldred wrote: "That coil spring and hammer are identical to what Winchester went to after they changed the design from the flat spring but they also started using a spring and plunger for the lever instead of just simply leaving the flat spring, or at least that is my understanding."

Okay.

The coil spring singleshots are all late model rifles. Take downs and the 1917, 1918 winders are coil rifles.
I have a half dozen flatspring rifles, no coil rifles so I don't have a sample to look at.

I just looked at Campbell's two book to see the shape the coil spring. Nothing that I can find of just the spring. ??????

Now I an going to have to track down a coil rifle and check them out.

Thanks for the good info.

[oldred]

I have a blueprint of the coil spring with all the dimensions and have even wound a couple of them from .062 Music wire, which is what the blueprint calls for. If I can get my scanner to work I will try to get that posted here tomorrow.

It's fairly simple to convert a flat spring rifle if someone is interested in doing so and the springs are easy to make or inexpensive to buy. The mods needed would be to drill the two small holes in the sides of the breech block at the back for the spring to snap into, that one is simple and makes no changes that would prevent going back to the flat spring if wanted nor would it affect anything else, however the major mod is cutting the "horn" off the bottom of the hammer. Again, it would be simple to do and the exact cut would not even be all that critical but obviously once done a new hammer would be required to go back to a flat spring design.

[BlackpowderSweden]

Here is a target from last competiton with my Uberti Highwall Special Sporting 40-65 W.C.F.
6 shots 100m prone with sling, iron sights.
Nothing wrong with the quality of the original Uberti barrel, it is super smooth and accurate, 14 years old now, several thousand shoots thru it, still going strong :D

222449

[oldred]

The coil spring singleshots are all late model rifles. Take downs and the 1917, 1918 winders are coil rifles.
I have a half dozen flatspring rifles, no coil rifles so I don't have a sample to look at.

I just looked at Campbell's two book to see the shape the coil spring. Nothing that I can find of just the spring.


Well I can't get my scanner to work at the moment but here's a pic of just the spring itself,

222473

Here's another one,

222474

Here's a pic of a low wall Breech Block for a coil spring version,

222475

Those small holes in the sides/back about midway between top and bottom are where the short "ears" on that spring slip into. of course the coils themselves slip around the pin boss on the hammer and the square loop on the spring then hooks around the back of the hammer.


You have a half a dozen original flat spring rifles? Wow, that's not a collection that's hoarding! :mrgreen:

[Chill Wills]

And those are from Winchester or Uberti? Or you made them. Or they are the same so it does not mater?
Thanks for pictures BTW




You have a half a dozen original flat spring rifles? Wow, that's not a collection that's hoarding! :mrgreen:

Yes, but not hording them, I'm shooting them:D.
The number of Winchesters are not excessive, but maybe I should be looking into a twelve step program for Remington Hepburns that have accumulated. As is said; It keeps me out of the bar and my wife is happy. I'm joking, I'm not much of a drinker, but you get the idea.

Thanks for taking the time to find and post those pictures. I learned something!

[oldred]

Actually I grabbed those pictures off the net a while back but the Uberti springs and the Winchester coils are the same. I did wind the springs for my rifles and another one for a friend of mine, they are quite easy to make using a simple jig in the lathe. After I had already made mine I stumbled across a Youtube video on making springs and of all the springs the guy made demonstrating the tool one of them was that very spring! I will see if I can find that video and post a link to it, the tool is a very simple rig made from a small diameter bar chucked in the lathe and the wire is fed through another simple device mounted to the tool post. Done this way those springs could be made in probably only a minute or so once the tooling is set up, however for just one or two springs they can even be wound by hand just using a couple of Vise Grips, a small diameter bar, a vise and some .062 music wire. I made my first two that way and they not only worked just fine but actually even looked pretty good to boot.

[oldred]

I found that video on making springs and there's some really good info there for a gunsmith or anyone needing to make a coil spring, near the end at about the 7:20 mark is where he makes the 1885 coil type main spring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAawhg6JtyY

[Chill Wills]

This old Tony. That is funny. Some years ago, his youtube was on my play list and I had viewed this one on springs too. When you wrote post 31 he came to mind. Then it turned out to be the one you saw too.

Some of the things he does are out of my ability and tooling but this spring tutorial is within mine and most of our reach. I have a foundry Highwall kit collecting dust and it may require coil springs as an option to a flat spring. That video points out one more area that I can address here at home. I need to complete an 'order of operation' before I start on the kit and I am not close on that yet.

I may have to set up to wind some Hepburn firing pin springs as a project to learn on and get some experience.
Thanks for the link!

[oldred]

I have a foundry Highwall kit collecting dust and it may require coil springs as an option to a flat spring.


I had heard you mention that project a while back and I have been meaning to ask how it's been coming along, I was hoping it was near completion as I can't help but take a special interest when I hear about another member taking on a true building project, I sure would like to see more of that here. There was four of those HighWall castings on Ebay a couple of weeks ago (receivers only, no parts) at $175 each and they all sold within hours, another guy had 25 Sharps complete kits for $200 and last time I looked a day or so ago he still had four of them left. He also had several receiver only castings (Sharps) for only $100 and I think there are also a couple of those left.


It doesn't surprise me that you are familiar with "This old Tony's" videos as he is so well known on Youtube but when I first mentioned that video I hadn't remembered it was one of his until I (re)found it yesterday. I made one of those simple spring winding tools back when I watched it the first time but other than just making a few useless practice springs I havn't used it yet, I may drag it out sometime in the next few days and wind a couple of those hammer springs just to see how it goes.