I think my Boolits are too hard?

[Crosshair]

I'm back again with another silly question. I'm having extremely poor accuracy with my 357, 45 ACP and 32 H&R cast loads. I have been water dropping all my boolits and my 30 carbine, 40 S&W, and 9m luger loads seem to work fine. These are all higher pressure loads where the harder lead would be a benefit.

I have a Lee hardness tester and my boolits are consistently testing to about 20-21 Brinell. I also had an interesting experience with my 105 grain 357 mag loads. I loaded some to 38 special pressure and some to mid-range 357. The 38s were awful, but the 357s shot much better, but still poor.

I'm thinking about air cooling a small batch of boolits and trying them out to see if the softer lead helps.

One other possible cause. I tumble lube my boolits with an Alox/Johnsons Paste Wax mix, size them with the Lee sizer, then tumble lube again. Would not lubing them after sizing perhaps give better results for these lower pressure loads?

Any other insight? I tried the search function and didn't get any definite answers.

Thanks.

[Buckshot]

................So what do the barrels slug (and chamber mouths in the revolters) in these firearms in which you have leading issues? And the slugs are sized to.......? To cover all the bases what lube are you using?

................Buckshot

[GabbyM]

You are to hard in the 45 acp. Never need more than a 12 BHN in those.
WW getting so precious I'd mix them 50/50 with scrap lead . Water drop the ones for the magnums if you're loading them very hard. Air cool for the 45. If you use a bit of that babbitt air cooled will be around BHN 8 to 10.

While your mixing that pb and ww melt some pb first then cast up some soft bullets to use for sluging your bores. Measure your cylinder throats with calipers. at least.

[Bret4207]

A softer boolit will allow for some "bump"/obturation which will make up for a poorly fitted boolit. A harder alloy won't bump as easily until you raise the pressure. So I think you can see where this leads. Try ACWW and don't feel bad. Seems everyone falls for the "harder is better" line that the commercial casting industry/gun writers have soldall these years. Hardnesss is not as important as fit and a balanced load.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot thousands of straight linotype bullets out of a 45acp and it shot those bullets as good or better then anything softer. Your hardness isnt your problem. What it can do though is magnify and sizing problem you have. What size are you sizing too. A good genral place to start with them is 452 for 45acps .358 for 357s and 312 for 32mags. Next thing to look at is your lube. What do you use? Next thing to look at is bullet design. What bullet molds are you using. If you only tried one or two bullets in each dont expect to find a majic bullet imediatly. Ive got a drawer full of molds that cast beautiful bullets that dont shoot worth a hoot in any guns i have. Ive got 3 cases of owning two identical guns and the loads one shoots great spray like a garden sprinkler in the other. Next is powder charge. How many differnt powders and powder weights have you tried. I usually have at least 4 differnt powders on the bench when i get a new gun to see what load it likes and at least two differnt primers and by at least i mean at least, you can usually double these statements. Now ive juggled these components and powder charges for three days with no luck in a gun and then just happened into a load that was a tack driver in them. MY montado is a good example. I about threw it in the creak. I tested for a week getting 3-4 inch groups and noting better then 3. I used unique, power pistol universal clays aa7 and green dot and nothing would shoot. Just so happened that my buddy at the gun shop had done a powder order and i had told him to pick me up a keg of herco. Got it home and after all that testing. I shot 9.3 grains of herco (because thats where the measure was set from the last powder) fed primers (cause that what was in the dillon) and an rcbs 255swc because that was the closest bullet to me on the bench. I loaded 12 and went to the range and shot all twelve of them into an inch and a half. I was still skeptical so i went back and load a couple hundred more. That load has never gone over 1.5 inch at 25 and its usualy alot closer to one inch and no doubt is a one inch group load for someone with younger eyes then me. My point is theres many things you have to take into account before you blame your bullets. theres the quatlity of your castig the sizing and lubing the loading of your gun (powder primers seating crimping ect) and then theres your gun. No cast bullet is going to shoot well out of a crap gun. You can put bandaids on your guns tolarances like useing soft bullets to bump up, something i allways chuckle at. If my gun needs to use soft bullets beause the chambers or bore are to big i either fix it or sell it. Same thing goes for poor forcing cones, rough barrels and cylinders out of alignment with the bore. It can all be fixed. Check and fix your gun before you even start your load developement or your in for nothihng but headaches.

[randyrat]

For an example, check out Hornady's Lead heads 45 acp they are soft as a babies butt and some swear by them. I bought a box of them a few years ago just to see how they shoot and check them out. They are fingernail soft. Even your hotter loads in the 45 acp are not usualy much over 950 ft/sec in the larger bullets. Now if your talking 45 acp180 gr with full loads of Unique (fireball loads) you may want to bump up your bullets hardness a little. As for your revolver you may want to listen to previously stated good advice. As for the 9mm that could be a tite rope walk, high pressure round- too hard it will lead -too soft it will lead, too lite it won't work the slide. You may have hit it just right for the 9 mm and the 40 cal but as stated a little hard for the 45.

[Bass Ackward]

1. I'm back again with another silly question. I'm having extremely poor accuracy with my 357, 45 ACP and 32 H&R cast loads. I have been water dropping all my boolits and my 30 carbine, 40 S&W, and 9m luger loads seem to work fine. These are all higher pressure loads where the harder lead would be a benefit.

2. I have a Lee hardness tester and my boolits are consistently testing to about 20-21 Brinell. I also had an interesting experience with my 105 grain 357 mag loads. I loaded some to 38 special pressure and some to mid-range 357. The 38s were awful, but the 357s shot much better, but still poor.

3. One other possible cause. I tumble lube my boolits with an Alox/Johnsons Paste Wax mix, size them with the Lee sizer, then tumble lube again. Would not lubing them after sizing perhaps give better results for these lower pressure loads?

Any other insight? I tried the search function and didn't get any definite answers.

Thanks.


You can have a myriad of issues here. Some may be solved with softer bullets. Some not.

1 and 2. I assume that you know what your dimensions are. I " HOPE " that you aren't assuming too. Do the guns all have very few rounds through them?

The 357 with 105 grain slugs may be a separate issue. That has to be a VERY short bodied slug. Depending on the bullet design, if you have a forcing cone, your bullet may be jumping from the cylinder face, breaking seal removing your lube, and then bouncing around the cone until it goes in. The hint: The 357 is acting better than the 38. You just don't have any lube by the time it seals the bore. Gravity may be working on the slower 38 more than the 357 if the velocity is higher causing what amounts to poor alignment. A bullet needs to reach across the expanse from the cylinder face where the front band reaches into the bore before the base breaks free. It has to reach far enough so that while the back is hanging in mid air being forced around by high pressure, that the front is strong enough to hold the bullet straight. Remember, the front band is also being asked to begin to impart rotation about this same time. So a stronger design is necessary. Very often, strong and light can't be accomplished cause you can't have strength without lead and lead weighs. So if you want to shoot light, you need almost no forcing cone to do it well.

3. The fact that you are having trouble with everything makes me look for a common denominator though. Lube or improper sizing. Don't take this wrong, but it could be poor reloading if these are all PB. Something. What you can get away with for lube in a solid barrel gun, generally requires more of or better lube from a revolver. How you can abuse a GC and achieve success goes beyond a PB.

My guess is that the cause is something here.

[Bass Ackward]

I guess that this was important enough that I had to say it twice. :grin:

[Crosshair]

The 45 ACP slugs .452 with the cylinder mouths being .453.-452. I've shot .452 Laser Cast bullets through them before with superb results and that is what I sezed mine to. The chambers on my revolver are too tight for .454 boolits that have been lubed a second time.

The 357 won't chamber boolits that have been sized to .358 and lubed a second time so I sized them to .357 and lubed them again. Perhaps I should try sizing them to .358 and not lubing them a second time and try to just to rely on the lube in the grooves.

[Lloyd Smale]

im not much of a fan of tumble lubing bullets or tumble lubed designed bullets. Ive never got the best accuracy a gun was capable of with either. The 105 lee shoots exceptionaly well out of a couple of my smiths. I load it with 4.2 grains of bullseye. I does better as youve found with a little bit more speed then a typical 38 target load. Now i just said I dont like tumble lube but this is one place i use it. I shoot thousands of these. I dont even size them. I just put a light coating of tumble lube on the and shoot them. Usually there cast out of #2 and that usually runs between 14 and 16 bhn. I have shot them out of straing lyno and they shoot just as well but i dont want to waste my linotype. If im shoot that bullet and any greater speed i then convetionaly size and lube it. Your 45 tests show me that my advice is right. You said the gun shoots well with laser cast bullets but not yours. Put your mold in the drawer and try a differnt bullet design. I will sugest a couple. The 200 H&G or one of its copys by rcbs lee and a few others. The other is the lyman 452488 200 grain swc. these ARE THE BULLETS in a 45acp. you can find others that brag on different ones but guys that shoot competition and really test there guns about hands down use these two bullets. Load either with about 4.5 grains of bullseye and if your 1911 wont shoot them it about wont shoot. Just dont buy into that old wifes tale that bullets need to be soft. It came from a time when machine and gun tolarances were alot poorer then they are now. Theres some exceptions like rugers typical 45 colt but its rare anymore to get a gun with under or oversized chambers bad enough to effect accuracy. For the most part forcing cones are cut right and barrels are at least good enough. In a gun like that you will find 9 times out of ten your harder bullets will outshoot softer ones. After all people actually shoot jacketed bullets and there a hell of alot harder then any lead bullet you can cast.

[Bass Ackward]

After all people actually shoot jacketed bullets and there a hell of alot harder then any lead bullet you can cast.


Not really Lloyd. Most handgun jacketed are full length gas checks over pure lead.

What we need to realise that there is a difference between hard and strong.

[Crosshair]

Well, I think I'm going to try softer boolits and also try lube, size and skipping the second lube. Those will be the easiest for me to do. If that doesn't work, I'll have to go down the list of advice. I'll try both .452" and .454" diameter.