Pretty bad first experience with cast bullets

[stevekl]

I cast some (I think) .312" diameter, 155 grain, gas checked bullets with a Lee double-mould. I applied liquid alox, let dry, and then swaged them to .311" and installed a gas check. I loaded them behind 54 grains of BLC-2 in a 7.62x54R case and went to the range to try to zero in the scope on my Romanian PSL.

And good lord it was terrible.

I tried shooting both with the scope and with iron sights and I couldn't get on paper. I must have had a dispersion of 18, maybe 24 inches, at 50 yards.

And the thing is, I don't know wether it was the rifle's fault, the scope's fault, the bullet's fault, my load's fault, or my fault. I am HOPING it's the bullet or load, because that is easy to fix.

One clue i have is that I actually managed to break the rifle, which is an AK-47 variant, and that's hard to do. After about 40 shots the pin that holds the trigger in the receiver wandered out. So, I kinda have the feeling that my loads were way too hot, and the bullets weren't grabbing the rifling, or something. I dunno.

The thread title is misleading because I can't blame my bullets until I eliminate all the variables. I guess i'm just posting this thread to complain about a pretty bad range experience [smilie=1:

I'm going to go out there tomorrow with some factory stuff and see what happens.

Edit- So I guess my main question is, if I loaded way too hot with cast lead bullets, would that lead to horrible 18" groups at 50 yards?

[jack19512]

Hang in there, I have had days like that, matter of fact I still do.![smilie=1:

[jack19512]

Did you get that load from a manual? Because mine doesn't list BLC-2 for the 7.62X54R.

[45nut]

I kinda believe the loads were way too hot too. and yes,, everything you described could be due to that.

[jack19512]

Edit- So I guess my main question is, if I loaded way too hot with cast lead bullets, would that lead to horrible 18" groups at 50 yards?







Yes it could. Did you have any leading?

[jack19512]

I applied liquid alox, let dry, and then swaged them to .311" and installed a gas check.






Did you relube the bullets after you swaged them?

[Blammer]

when you installed the GC did you crimp it on or just snap it on?

[jack19512]

The only data I found was for a 150 gr. jacketed bullet using between 52.0 grains and not to exceed 55.5 grains of BLC-2. With the 52.0 grains and jacketed the velocity was 2878 fps. If I am correct.

[w30wcf]

stevekl,
Welcome to the forum. Sorry to learn of your not so good experience.
THings that gome to mind:

1.) WOW! Your bullets must have been exiting the barrel close to 3,000 f.p.s.!!
In order to get any kind of accuracy at that velocity, the bullet would have to be very hard (30 b.h.n.++) AND it would have to fit the barrel extremely well!

2.) I would chose a loading that would put you around 1,500 f.p.s. to start with and if that works well, then increase the velocity a couple of 100 f.p.s. at a time until accuracy deteriorates.

3.) For best results, slug your barrel to find out what the groove dia. and throat diameter are and make sure the bullet is at least as large as the throat diameter.

4.) Push the nose of the bullet into the end of the barrel, if it goes more than 1/4 of the way in with no resistance, accuracy will only come with lower velocities.

5.) Alloy should be at least 12 b.h.n. (Wheel weights + 2% tin) for velocities up to 1,800 f.p.s. and progressively harder for higher velocities.

I would suggest that you get the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and use the .30-06 data since it has a case capacity similar to the 7.62x54R.

Good luck,''
w30wcf

[docone31]

It sounds like you had one of my days.
My Smelly is pretty good with surplus ammo at 100yds. 3". Not too shabby considering I still have to do a trigger job, bed the action.
I cast some .312/185gn gas checks. Sized them to .311, went to the range and at 100yds, I wasn't even sure if I hit the berm! I mean 20ft. groups! The safest part down range was where the target was!
Ok, from there I went to the basics. What is the bore? I slugged it, .304. I had operated on .303. How deep are the grooves? .3145. I had presumed .310. Very little leading though. I guess the gas check helped some.
I had some paper patched to reload. The next session, I had .3135 patched. I then got 2'-3' groups. Whoopsie.
Sound familiar?
I don't know about the powder. I never used it. The trigger might have been something else entirely.
From what I have read, you should be at .312in the 7.62X54R. I have that particular Lee Mold, and I am lucky if I can get .312. I definately cannot get .312 from the 312/185C Lee mold I use.
Paper patch, the fixer of all evils. Either that or beagle the daylights out of the mold. Size at .312. First, definately slug the bore. Sometimes they are sloppy. Loading too hot is a real way to make lousey shooting with the 7.62X54R. I use the minimum loads for my starting loads.
I definately know how embaressing it can be to go to the range with something, and look like an idiot. I have done it many, many times. The last time, I had my Ruger M77 Target in 25-06. The scope was off windage 1/4" and I did not see it. I even had the long sun cap on and did not look. Someone else pointed it out. It was so far off on windage I could not get the paper to show with the scope all the way left.
Slug you barrel. That is the best way to make sure you are sizing it to work.
I took a casting, mounted a screw in the sprue mark, and turned it against sandpaper untill it was a little large to slide into the bore. From there, I drove it into the muzzle. The hammer, rawhide, obturated the bullet as it went into the bore. I drove it down and out. Now I know. That makes it easier for me. I was grossly undersized.
If I ever want to lap the barrel, now I know a way. You can also pour some lead into the muzzle. That is not that hard either. I use 60 grit sandpaper, tape it onto the muzzle backwards so the grit is away from the blueing. I pour the molten lead into that. Does not seem to stain the blueing.
Good luck, keep us posted.

[454PB]

Welcome to the forum!

You say you "swaged" them after applying LLA. In that process, you removed all the lube. You should have lubed them after sizing (swaging). I agree with the others, your velocity was too high.

[mike in co]

quickload says, 3017 fps, 61,000psi.......(5000 PSI OVER MAX)

you need to do some reading on cast bullet(boolit) loading BEFORE YOU DO ANYMORE LOADING.

[Buckshot]

................stevekl, Greetings, and welcome to the board! Congratulations (don't feel bad) but it seems you pretty much did everything wrong :-) Now you can start your cast boolit journey!

1) Slug the barrel. At the very MINIMUM they should match. Better is a slug at least a thousandth over. Better yet is a thousandth under the throat.

2) Starting out with centerfire smallbore (say .375 and under) use gas checked slugs cast of at least wheel weight alloy.

3) Keep your velocities in the 1500 - 1800 fps area.

4) Use the faster rifle powders, and recognized pistol/shotgun powders for your loads to begin with.

Some good generic loads for the "Full Power Military Cartridges" with boolits from 150 to 180 grs or so would be:

13.0 (max) Red Dot
10 - 12 grs Unique
14 - 16 grs 2400
18 - 22 grs 5744, SR4759, 4227
21 - 24 grs 4198
24 - 30 grs 3031

5) Get ahold of the Lyman Manual for Bullet Casting.

I don't know what a Romanian PSL is, but if it's a semi auto that's another whole bag of worms.

.................Buckshot

[dwtim]

What an amazing rifle. It's a gas-assisted action, too.

I'm curious to know how much stripping happened to the bullet, what alloy was used, and if it was treated.

[cohutt]

I don't know what a Romanian PSL is, but if it's a semi auto that's another whole bag of worms.

.................Buckshot

http://www.snipercountry.com/graphics/Romanian_PSL_SniperRifle.png

[mag44uk]

Before you go ahead and shoot factory FMJ`s make sure you get the leading out of the barrel!
You may end up with even worse problems.........................!
Good luck with it though. Some good advise given here.
Tony

[Bret4207]

Holy crap! Guy, it's no surprise you got the results you did. Try around 10.0 gr Unique and start there. You're way, way over loaded for generic cast shooting. Also try just applying the gas check to the UNSIZED boolit and tumble lube after that. Fat boolits= good, skinny boolits= bad!

4/0 steel wool will reomove all that leading.

[Lloyd Smale]

if you feel like your getting your but chewed a little you probably are. Dont take it personaly though and run away. there are alot of guys here that will help you. Just dont take it on yourself to assume anything anymore. NO ONE HEAR WANTS TO SEE YOU HURT! or even see you damage your gun

[MT Gianni]

Hi, My names Gianni and I'm a castaholic. I too have painted the inside of my bbl silver with lead. I have shot groups from a rifle I would have been disapointed to see with #4 buckshot. I have used wrong lubes and too soft bullets. Welcome brother, you are not alone in your errors and can right the mistakes you have made by listening and trusting those who once followed your path.
Seriously there is some great advice here, read the posts, search the forums, slow things down and relax. all this is fixable. Gianni

[Wayne Smith]

if you feel like your getting your but chewed a little you probably are. Dont take it personaly though and run away. there are alot of guys here that will help you. Just dont take it on yourself to assume anything anymore. NO ONE HEAR WANTS TO SEE YOU HURT! or even see you damage your gun

Hell, man, most of us have done the same thing or just as stupid, even when we should have known better! Most of the guys who will help you can because we've been there and done that, just years ago. Mine was trying to shoot cast in a 1895 Steyr at rifle velocity. No fit, no understanding of hardening, and no success, either.

Slug your barrel and get back to us. You probably have some leading to clean, copper Chore Boy around an old brush works safer than steel wool. Hope you don't have tennis elbow! I did not believe how much lead could accumulate in the 20" barrel of a '95 Steyr!

Oh, slug your barrel after you clean out the lead!

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome aboard, Steve. I'd like to be able to say that I never leaded a bore or fired a "pattern" instead of a "group" using cast boolits in a rifle--but I do try to stay factual here.

You took on a pretty esoteric cast boolit project with that PSL. Don't be disappointed with the results--I've been reloading for 35 years+, and casting since 1981--and have yet to try loading cast boolits in a gas-operated self-loading centerfire rifle. It can be done successfully--but my tastes run more to bolt and lever guns. I have owned a couple M1As, but didn't even consider using cast boolits in either one.

Cast boolits are a LOT cheaper to run a rifle with, for sure. There's no free lunch, however--with that lowered expense comes lowered velocity performance potential, if accuracy is to be achieved. This is due to the material limits of the boolit's construction, conventional upper limits being about 2200 FPS. My best accuracy in my rifles occurs at 1500-1900 FPS, generally. This lowered velocity (and operating pressure) may result in incomplete action functioning in self-loading rifles.

I don't recall reading any texts concerning the loading of 7.62 x 54R with cast boolits for self-loading rifles, and I've been here nearly 10 years. I could have missed it, of course--but it's not a common practice.

[Bret4207]

Yeah, don't feel like this is the first time anyones done this. I darned near wore out my cleaning rod removing lead from some of my guns. Just start low and slow and go up from there. You'll figure it out and be happier then.

[jdgabbard]

I can help you with the FCG pin problem, as I build AKs from parts kits.

Take the pin out and go to the hardware store (take the pin out as I cannot remember the size c-clip you need. Bought mine in bulk). I think its a 3/16 but would be wrong. after you get two of them go back home reinstall your FCG and then one the end of the pin that is larger, on the inside of the receiver there is a small groove. Insert c-clip in that groove. You should be good to go. They wont come out unless a) you blow up the gun with your hot loads ;) or b) your holes are worn, or c) you take them out.

Good luck!

[jack19512]

What happened to stevekl ? I was looking forward to his third post.

[mooman76]

I think some scared him off!

[bcp477]

Your LOAD is most likely the culprit. Sounds as if you've loaded a cast bullet, albeit a gas-checked one, as if it were a jacketed one. Definitely too hot. I'll bet you have leading in your barrel from those velocities. There is no guarantee that the bullets, powder, etc., etc. will ever offer satisfactory results, in your rifle. However, the FIRST thing I would do is back off at least 20 - 25 % on your charge weight, then work up from there. As I said, no guarantees, but I think you are trying to push that cast GC bullet way too fast, as is.

[runfiverun]

he might not have any leading in the bbl..................
but starting with another load, one that will work with his lube is definately the way to go.
buckshot has some good ones there and 24 gr 4895 is another good one to start with it may even cycle your rifle.

[gray wolf]

Hey guy's help me out here. What kind of A/K shoots 7.62x54r.
I thought they were 7.62x39. Is that some new kind of AK ?

Thanks

GW.

[Linstrum]

The PSL is an AK variant from Romania that was beefed up to handle 7.62x54R. They aren't Russian, the PSL is apparently a Romanian home-grown effort. I have heard good things about them, they were designed as a sniper, so there is good accuracy potential there.


rl433

[45nut]

Gray Wolf, the Kalashnikov series of rifles has many, many variants now.
The PSL is just one such variant, the SAIGA's are another russian import series that conform to the idiotic "sporting use" regulations now.

The Saiga's come in 223, 7.62x39, 308 and 410, 20 and 12 ga shotguns. They are very robust and fill the niche perfectly when looking for a semi-auto 308 without the budget concerns of a M1A from Springfield Armory.

[jdgabbard]

Not completely correct Linstrum. The PSL was designed as a stop-gap between an AKM and a Draganov. Looks very similar to the later. However, it share essentially none of the features of the Draganov other than similar looking funiture, length of barrel and essentially the same type of optic. The PSL shares the long stroke gas system of the AKM, fire control group, gas port, front sight assembly and a few other minor parts. Some of the things that differ in the PSL from the AKM are the reciever (usually made larger and with heavier construction), magazine and bolt hold open. Attached is a picture of a PSL I got to play with overseas, followed by a picture of my personal PSL that I own.

88128813

[Ricochet]

Nothing's incorrect about what Linstrum said. It is an AK variant, modified to handle the larger 7.62x54R cartridge. The receivers are RPK receivers with some added reinforcement. The rifle fills the same tactical niche as the Dragunov, and has a similar appearance, but they have no parts in common and are of different designs.

The originals, having been built on modified RPK receivers, had a hole in the receiver where the selective fire switch went, and they used a part of the AK selective fire mechanism as a disconnector to prevent firing out of battery. The ATF in their wisdom deemed it a "machine gun" because of the presence of this hole and part. (Never mind that they were semiautomatic only from the beginning and the initials stand for "Semiautomatic Rifle with Scope" in Romanian.) PSLs imported legally into this country had to have new receivers made without the hole, as the ATF will not allow welding up the hole. Their rule is "Once a machine gun, always a machine gun." Century Arms had to recall a batch with welded up holes they sold a few years back. They're currently selling some with new receivers made at Cugir in Romania, and there are others being sold with American made receivers.

Now Zastava is selling a copy made for the 8x57 cartridge.

As for the 7.62x54R, that 54 grain load of BLC2 is way excessive. Lee's book shows 45 grains max for 7.62x54R with a 150 grain bullet, and for the similar sized .308 Winchester (rated at a higher maximum pressure), the max is 49.5 grains. The PSL isn't the strongest rifle around, and several sites have warned of problems when they're used with milsurp "heavy ball" ammo.

[Bad Karma]

How does the PSl shoot with jacketed boolits? I think the PSL has a pretty fast twist. You might try a 200gr boolit or a 180. My M1 Garand is a .308 and it shoots great with jacketed boolits but still working on a good PB boolit load.

[Ricochet]

Same twist as the Mosins, 1:9.5".

Mine slugs at .309" groove diameter. Chamber's tight, I can't chamber ammo loaded with .314" boolits, and the unloaded boolits won't even go all the way into the throat. Seems to be a minimum chamber for ammo loaded with the standard .311" bullets. Has a long tapered leade so that with .308" bullets it has about .36" freebore, comparable to a Weatherby chamber.

Don't have any experience with heavier bullets, but there are a lot of warnings out on the Web of receivers having been battered and broken by surplus standard military 182 grain "heavy ball" loads, the advice being to stick with the 147 grain "light ball."

[gray wolf]

Once again the knowledge here knocks me off my feet. Not only did you guys set me on the correct path, but you explained it in such a nice in dept way. Once again I have added stuff
in my head.

GW.

[goon]

Now Zastava is selling a copy made for the 8x57 cartridge.



IIRC, Zastava has been marketing their AK clones for quite a while. I know they made them in 7.62x39 and 5.56 and I think the M 76 was also issued as a designated marksman's rifle back during the USSR days.
Gotta do a little checking to be sure...

But I'm kind of suprised that cast bullets can be used in a semi-auto rifles at all. How do you guys keep the gas ports from getting clogged?

[Buckshot]

But I'm kind of suprised that cast bullets can be used in a semi-auto rifles at all. How do you guys keep the gas ports from getting clogged?

..............Any leading normally starts out as a lead 'Wash'. A dull gray look as if spray painted. Pretty much a kind of vapor deposit. Continueing deposits may or may not develope into an operating issue. Depends upon the load, how your firarm is designed to operate, and finally the fit of the operating parts.

An M1 Carbine can usually fire a BUNCH of cast loads before sluggish operation, if ever. I have no problem firing cast in my Garand or my SKS. I did fire 60 rounds in one sitting through my Ljungman without any issues but the pressures generated were only enough to unlock the bolt.

If I had a Garand or M1A1 set up tight for match shooting, I'd have to have more experience and information before shooting cast much in those types. Generally the gas cylinders and things aren't just casually removed.

................Buckshot

[stevekl]

Okay first of all sorry for starting a thread and then abandoning it. I had a busy couple of weeks.

I read the thread and I recognize that my fundemental error in thinking was that I assumed I could use any generic reloading data (like my Lee reloading book) for cast bullets. I guess this is wrong.

I will buy a proper cast bullet reloading manual and try again.

I have shot the rifle with factory bullets, and it shoots fine (3-4 MOA off a bench which is good enough for me). I scrubbed it pretty good afterwards and the barrel looks pretty clean, so I am ready to start with a clean slate.

Again sorry for abandoning the topic and thanks for all the help.

[stevekl]

Your LOAD is most likely the culprit. Sounds as if you've loaded a cast bullet, albeit a gas-checked one, as if it were a jacketed one. Definitely too hot. I'll bet you have leading in your barrel from those velocities. There is no guarantee that the bullets, powder, etc., etc. will ever offer satisfactory results, in your rifle. However, the FIRST thing I would do is back off at least 20 - 25 % on your charge weight, then work up from there. As I said, no guarantees, but I think you are trying to push that cast GC bullet way too fast, as is.

And yes, to sum it up, this is exactly what I did wrong. I cast bullets assuming I could use them the exact same way that jacketed bullets are used. Live and learn!

[docone31]

Hehehe, I have a forehead that slopes backwards from doing stuff like that.
I figuired, why buy jacketeds, I can just melt some lead and life is good.
Today, I know a little better. I had no idea, I would occupy my time to the point it has, spend so much on accesories, measure, try, measure, try, talk to people, read, scratch head, measure try again, smack forehead, change alloy, two wraps of paper, three wraps of paper, size it, different lube, Oiy!
Still haven't accomplished what I set out to do.
I load some jacketeds, and put three edge to edge.
Still trying.
You not alone.