Firelapping?

[sniper]

I have been told that All revolvers need firelapping, especially new Rugers, to remove the constriction caused by threading the barrel to the frame, and it makes them more accurate.

So, My revolver cylinder throats are all very close to .358 A .358 ZZ minus pin gauge will just fit with some oil and gentle persuasion. About equal resistance is met in each chamber throat. However, a .356 ZZ minus gauge will not enter the muzzle. O.K., the cylinder throat is supposed to be the critical measurement, right?

Slugging the bore won't work, because it has 5 lands, and I don't have or don't know anyone with the proper(and expen$ive) tool to do that.

I have some Hornady swaged 158 gr. semi-wadcutters, which are said to be very soft, and measure ~.358. So, If I do decide to firelap, could I seat them backwards over a light load of Trailboss, using JB Bore compound, and do a reasonable job, at the same time, not changing the diameter of my cylinder throats?

[contender1]

A fine gentleman named Fermin Garza wrote an article on Firelapping. I have a copy somewhere in my stuff,,, but do a search, read what he has to say about it. He's one of those folks who has been there, done that, and knows what he's talking about.

You are correct in that firelapping is about cleaning up bore constriction at the threaded portion (usually.)

I'm curious as to your gun only having 5 lands/grooves. I may be the ignorant one here,,, but I'm not familiar with a brand that uses an odd number of lands & grooves. But,,, If your concern is thread constriction and you wish to firelap,,, I suggest you do the proper test to see if it's actually needed. Slugging the barrel isn't the way to do that.

[JSnover]

If your concern is thread constriction and you wish to firelap,,, I suggest you do the proper test to see if it's actually needed. Slugging the barrel isn't the way to do that.
Yep. I suppose someone meant well when they told Sniper his revolver needed lapping (just because "they all do") but how does it shoot? It may not need any work at all.

[DeputyDuke]

S&W's

[jcren]

Do the slug. Not just for measurment, but if you start at the muzzle and once started the pressure required to push the slug through stays consistent, you don't have significant constriction. You will probably feel a couple tight spots where the barrel is roll marked, and at the barrel threads but if the slug slides on by with a bit more force, no big deal. If you have to break out the bigger hammer to get it past the thread, you have significant constriction and may need to firelap. Otherwise, Load a few soft bullets and see if you get leading just past the forcing cone, a tell tale sign of thread constriction.

Also, if the slug you push through the barrel will fit through the cylinder throats, you have a favorable bore-throat relationship, regardless of number of lands or actual measurment.

[reddog81]

What jcren said x2...

Slug the barrel first if you are worried about it. Or just to shoot it and see what happens. Anyone that says all Rugers have constrictions doesn't know what they are talking about. There is no way you can firelap the barrel without having some effect on the throats unless your using a different cylinder.

[dkf]

You could also push in a very tight patch from the muzzle and pay attention to the resistance throughout the length of the bore. If it tightens up quite a bit at one spot you probably have some constriction.

[6string]

Try slugging the barrel and then drop fitting it to the cylinder throats. You'll be able to tell if there's a discrepancy.
jim

[Gtek]

Slugging odd groove is no problem, just need a few simple things. A micrometer is much better than a vernier for these task but the latter is close. Cut a strip of soda can, a .001"-.003" feeler gauge, shim stock, something like that. Push slug and then stand slug, wrap shim and pinch with thumb and index of one hand and mic with the other. Double thickness of stock then subtracted from total equals odd grooved slug.

[sniper]

A fine gentleman named Fermin Garza wrote an article on Firelapping. I have a copy somewhere in my stuff,,, but do a search, read what he has to say about it. He's one of those folks who has been there, done that, and knows what he's talking about.
You are correct in that firelapping is about cleaning up bore constriction at the threaded portion (usually.)
I'm curious as to your gun only having 5 lands/grooves. I may be the ignorant one here,,, but I'm not familiar with a brand that uses an odd number of lands & grooves. But,,, If your concern is thread constriction and you wish to firelap, I suggest you do the proper test to see if it's actually needed. Slugging the barrel isn't the way to do that.


Contender;

Like jcren mentioned, I was shooting a mixture of my own cast~15 BHN boolits, and Hornady Swaged SWCs, with Hornady's suggested load of .38 Spl level loads, and I did get some leading in the first 1-1 1/2" of the barrel, so, I figure I must have some constriction.

I'd be interested in reading Mr. Garza's article...so far, I've read a couple, and bought Beartooth Bullets' lapping manual. I'll see if I can find it, somewhere.

AFAIK, it may not be exactly 5, but Smith & Wesson also uses an odd number of lands/grooves. Leastways, my ancient 586 did.

BTW; What is the "proper test", for barrel constriction, and how is it accomplished?

Thanx for the suggestions, all! C.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

. ...

[35remington]

Given the presence of rifling in the barrel, and given the bore diameter is around .350” or so (do not confuse the correct meaning of the word with groove diameter) I am unsure of why a .356” pin gauge was introduced to the muzzle.

A pin approaching the mentioned .350” or near that will go in. There is no reason to believe one significantly larger in diameter will do so. The rifling will get in the way.

[contender1]

sniper,,, Fermin Garza is a frequent visitor over on the singleactions dot com forum. He goes by the handle; "2 dogs." His article is over there,,, or at least a link to it can be had. If not,, PM him over there & he'll send it to you. It may also be over on the gunblast website, in the archives.

A proper way to check the bore constriction is listed above. I prefer the tight patch method myself. I use a cleaning rod, a jag tip, and different thicknesses of patches to get the snug fit I need. Then,, I start my push. if I get it to "stop" or feel resistance, I stop, mark the rod, and continue. Once I have the patches out,, I look at my rod, re-insert it and stop it at the mark. It will let me know where it MAY be constricted. I often repeat the test with fresh patches, no markings etc, to make sure of my original findings.

And as noted,, pin gauges only show the lands dimensions,,, not the groove dimensions in the rifling. Pin gauges work great for chamber measurements, and if they can fit the window, a start in the bore of a revolver. But again, that's only part of the overall information you need.

[contender1]

A quick search,, Over on the gunblast website, Fermin's article, from 2011.

"A Contemporary Look At Barrel Leading and Related Sixgun Issues"

This is an excellent read.

[mart]

Lots of good information here. I highly recommend Fermin's article. While not every handgun needs to be fire lapped, you're unlikely to hurt one by fire lapping, assuming you are following directions as Beartooth or Fermin describe. It is important the cylinder mouths not be undersize of the groove diameter while fire lapping. You'll essentially size your lapping slug to be under groove diameter and not accomplish much in the way of throat lapping. If your cylinder mouths are undersized have them opened before you fire lap the barrel.

Ross Seyfried also wrote an excellent article about the fire lapping process on his GunsAmerica blog.

[nicholst55]

http://www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm

[str8wal]

Firelapping always seemed like a good way to take the edge of the lands to me. I have a few revolvers and all shoot quite well and none have been firelapped, but the throats have been uniformed.

[dubber123]

Firelapping always seemed like a good way to take the edge of the lands to me. I have a few revolvers and all shoot quite well and none have been firelapped, but the throats have been uniformed.

I have lapped quite a few, some extensively, and all still looked sharp to me, just a lot shinier, and with much improved accuracy.

[DougGuy]

Here is a VERY SIMPLE test you can do that will tell you if there is any choke or not. It won't give you a measurement in numbers, but this is also not necessary.

Tightly patch a plastic cleaning jag into the clean dry bore with paper towel. Push the jag through the bore towards the breech. You want to observe how much force is required to keep the jag moving. ANY change in resistance, accurately reflects a change in the bore at that particular spot. If you can push the jag through and resistance is constant and does not increase when the jag gets to the spot where the barrel joins the frame, there is NO CHOKE. If it gets tight, a little harder to push, there is minimal choke. If it stops and you have to beat it through the rest of the way, there is severe choke..

This is good enough to detect less than a .001" change in bore diameter.

You can also remove the cylinder or swing the cylinder open, place a piece of white paper on the breech face, hold the revolver up to a bright light and look down the bore. If there is even a slight choke, you will see a hazy ring inside the barrel, a bit of a distortion in the light reflected, by the choked portion of the bore.

Personally, I think OP has been reading a little more into the situation than is necessary because S&W 357 barrels are RARELY choked, and the 357 barrel is rather thick, which again would prevent distortion in the bore from torquing the barrel into the frame.


Thread choke happens more in 44 and 45 caliber revolvers because the barrel walls are much thinner and not nearly as strong, so they choke rather easily by comparison to smaller bore revolvers.


So, My revolver cylinder throats are all very close to .358 A .358 ZZ minus pin gauge will just fit with some oil and gentle persuasion. About equal resistance is met in each chamber throat. However, a .356 ZZ minus gauge will not enter the muzzle. O.K., the cylinder throat is supposed to be the critical measurement, right?

Yes. Not so much the diameter, as long as they are larger than groove diameter, but the critical part is how even they are in diameter. Uneven throats cause variations in pressure which in turn causes the gun to recoil differently in the shooter's hands, causing point of impact to change from shot to shot. Having the throats all even with each other is the MOST IMPORTANT part of the cylinder. You can always size to fit the throats, or with a soft enough alloy and a stout enough load, boolits will gladly bump up to throat diameter upon firing, but you cannot size to uneven throats.



I have some Hornady swaged 158 gr. semi-wadcutters, which are said to be very soft, and measure ~.358. So, If I do decide to firelap, could I seat them backwards over a light load of Trailboss, using JB Bore compound, and do a reasonable job, at the same time, not changing the diameter of my cylinder throats?

You could use a soft wadcutter, but using one with a lube groove clean of lube but filled in with J&B bore cleaner would work. I did this, used a bottle of J&B that was broken and sat on a shelf for years, poured all the oil off and used the paste, packed into the lube grooves and loaded over a decent charge of Unique. This was many years before the internet and not much about firelapping was available, I just took my best guess as to how to do it and it worked a charm. Groups shrunk by half and the tool marks in the Ruger Blackhawk barrel were MUCH smoother.

You won't do much to the throats being the boolit is sized to push through with finger pressure. Lapping with a larger than throat diameter lapping boolit will definitely change the throats.

[Lloyd Smale]

I sure wouldn't do it unless the gun told me it needed it. I do shoot a box or two of jacketed bullet through a new handgun and then clean the barrel before shooting lead. I have fire lapped rifle barrels (not to shoot cast) mostly they were problem childs. Ive never seen one shoot worse after it and have seen a slight improvement in a couple but your not going to get sweet lemonade out of a lemon. I think if I had a ruger that had a bad constriction id be boxing it up and sending it back to ruger. Once you put the lapping compound to it there not going to warrantee it anymore.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

... ;)

[contender1]

Bill Ruger did away with a written warranty decades ago. Why? It's CHEAPER to just offer service repairs then to have a written warranty. It's a business decision. Bill found out that with all the legal jargon, and loopholes etc,, he was better off & saved a lot by just answering issues & fixing them.

[fourarmed]

If you have a full set of pin gauges, find the largest one that will go in the muzzle easily and see if it will fall all the way through. If it does, you don't have a constriction problem. If it stops at the threads, then you might think about lapping. If it won't go through, and it won't fall back out the muzzle, then a short rod or a flexible one will give it the push it needs. Also, a soft boolit may be all that is necessary to make it shoot.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess if chev was willing to fix my truck with its 10 years old id say they had a good warrantee too even if it weren't in writing.
I don't recall ever buying a Ruger that did have a warranty ... they do have a service dept ... which has the option of not charging for fixing a problem gun ... ;)

[sniper]

Thanks all for the suggestions!
I slugged my bore...I thought I felt a smidge of resistance under the frame threads. I then tried the tight patch on a jag, and could tell no difference in force required to shove it down a dry barrel. I re-measured my cylinder throats, and found that one throat would not pass my .358 pin gauge.??:o How'd I miss that the first time around? It measures .3575...That's only .0005" less than the others. That doesn't hardly seem like it would be worth having all the throats sized to a gnat's nut sameness. Or, if I get bored, maybe I could try enlarging the throat myself. Or, maybe I could just shoot it. I'm nearly 80, and keeping all my bullets in an 8" bullseye at 25 yards seems satisfactory to me. What an interesting journey, tho!:D
What detrimental effect, if any, would shooting .357 diameter bullets have, do you think? I know....try it and see!:wink:
Cheers!

[Wheelguns 1961]

I would suggest that you shoot some jacketed bullets through it. This has worked to fix the barrel constrictions on 2 .45c revolvers for me. I loaded some fairly hot xtp’s and shot them. I could tell when the constriction was gone. Took 250rds on one gun and 200rds on the other one. They both shot much better after, and no more leading.

[yeahbub]

By all means, shoot it first. If you bench it and it is capable of better accuracy than you can consistently hold, you're home free and your concerns are immaterial - except for having enough ammo and time for proper enjoyment.

The simplest test I've used when testing for thread related constrictions is to get the closest-fitting gage pin the bore will accept without force, probably .350 or so as mentioned above and push it through and the breech end, but gently. If there's appreciable constriction, it will stop moving when it gets to the threads - Don't force it, use light pressure only. The only option you have to remove it is to insert a short dowel from the breech end and you have little mechanical advantage to get it unstuck, so don't go gorilla on it. If there's no constriction, it'll slide right out the breech end, no problem and it's all good.

BTW, there's another method of pressure lapping revolvers which doesn't affect chamber throats at all. It's slow, but does the job and throats remain at original diameter. This is done by anointing the origin of the rifling in the forcing cone all the way around with the abrasive you intend to use, softened to a dab-able consistency that will stay where you put it. A mild round with just 2-3 grains of something quick to get the boolit to clear the muzzle is all that's needed. On barrels which haven't been rusted or abused, I start with Crystolon 400 and 600 to finish if it's needed, and slug the bore every ten rounds or so to get a feel for the progress I'm making. Doing this over and over is a test of patience, so see what performance you can get beforehand to see whether it's really necessary. I get my abrasives from US Products at https://us-products.com/sitehtml/products/compslur.php. One of their sample jars will do several barrels.