Expansion at 1000 FPS?

[brewer12345]

I will start casting for my Makarov this Fall and I plan to pick up a flat point Noe mold for it. I will be using a flat point mold rather than a hollow point (unless anyone is interested in a group buy for such a thing) and the main intended use is target. However, I note that in this rather mild cartridge Lyman data suggests that lead boolits will move a lot faster than jacketed. For a self defense load, what alloy would I have to use to possibly get expansion/deformation at 1000 FPS? Pure? 16-1? Something else? Or is thus a fool's errand and such a thing should simply be counted on for penetration?

[Yodogsandman]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=71_414&products_id=3067

[brewer12345]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=71_414&products_id=3067

That is the one I had in mind.

[USSR]

brewer12345,

Left to right velocities: 800fps, 845fps, and 945fps. The key is to keep the antimony content low and the tin content high. This alloy is 97 Pb/2.5 Sn/0.5 Sb. Hope that helps.

Don

221333

[brewer12345]

Thanks, Don. Looks like range lead plus some pewter would probably do it.

[Yodogsandman]

That is the one I had in mind.

Why not buy the RG2 or RG4 that come with the hollow point pins? It also come with a blank pin for making flat point bullets.

[brewer12345]

Why not buy the RG2 or RG4 that come with the hollow point pins? It also come with a blank pin for making flat point bullets.

How much of a pain is it to cast solids with the blank pins?

[Hairy Dawg]

How much of a pain is it to cast solids with the blank pins?

Not hard at all.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

At those velocities and expansion, you won't get much penetration. I don't load for 9mm Makarov, but do load a lot of .380 ACP. I've did dozens of tests with water filled milk jugs. I gave up on HP (with the exception for small vermin such as raccoons). I believe the bullet with a large meplat at the highest velocity is the best you can hope for in pocket gun calibers. BTW, I love them.

[brewer12345]

At those velocities and expansion, you won't get much penetration. I don't load for 9mm Makarov, but do load a lot of .380 ACP. I've did dozens of tests with water filled milk jugs. I gave up on HP (with the exception for small vermin such as raccoons). I believe the bullet with a large meplat at the highest velocity is the best you can hope for in pocket gun calibers. BTW, I love them.

I don't quite consider 9X18 a pocket caliber, but clearly nobody is going to mistake it for a 44 mag. At the moment the mag I have in it for carry alternates ball with Hornady JHP. I just noticed that the loads Lyman lists for cast demonstrate considerably higher velocities than jacketed fodder and it got me thinking.

[Yodogsandman]

I load my Makarov with LRN and a max load of AA5. Blazing velocity and great accuracy.

[Bigslug]

Or is thus a fool's errand and such a thing should simply be counted on for penetration?

That's my attitude on anything with that light a bullet in that kind of velocity range. Such things usually penetrate fine, until you ask them to expand, and then you lack the momentum to reliably make it to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop. Load a flat nose with a hardness appropriate to the pressures you're generating.

[USSR]

At those velocities and expansion, you won't get much penetration. I don't load for 9mm Makarov, but do load a lot of .380 ACP. I've did dozens of tests with water filled milk jugs. I gave up on HP (with the exception for small vermin such as raccoons). I believe the bullet with a large meplat at the highest velocity is the best you can hope for in pocket gun calibers. BTW, I love them.

Rattlesnake Charlie,

There is simply no comparison regarding penetration or anything else between a 158gr .38 Special +P load (known as the FBI Load) and the .380 ACP.

Don

[brewer12345]

Rattlesnake Charlie,

There is simply no comparison regarding penetration or anything else between a 158gr .38 Special +P load (known as the FBI Load) and the .380 ACP.

Don

Mostly I pocket a 38 snub with an FBI load. That said, upon occasion the Mak comes with me instead. I am under no illusion as to the power (or lack thereof) of either option and just about any handgun pales in comparison to a long gun. If I am in bear country the minimum I carry is a 357 stoked with 180 grain hard cast GC bear loads. Out and about in the milktoast suburban area I live in, small and unobtrusive takes priority.

[jmort]

Rattlesnake Charlie,

There is simply no comparison regarding penetration or anything else between a 158gr .38 Special +P load (known as the FBI Load) and the .380 ACP.

Don

You are correct. The 380 ACP with a FMJ flat nose and decent meplat will penetrate twice as far.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Wow. This thread has got some momentum! I like it. Seems there are two things to address.

1) The .38 Spl +P 158 gr lead HP load (FBI load) will out do the .380 / 9mm Mak.
I'm a big fan of heavy projectiles. I've never did any hands-on field testing between these two. I don't own a .38 snubbie. If anyone has, please post the results. While discussing this one, they are slightly different. You just can't get that kind of heavy slug to work in .380 / 9mm Mak pistols. In a .38 snubbie, the FBI load seems to be the top contender. The OP is looking for the top contender in a slightly different category. What works for one may not work for the other.

2) Is the 9x18 a "pocket caliber"?
Due to similar ME of the .380, and being far behind the 9mm Parabellum, I do consider it a "pocket pistol". By "pocket pistol", I am thinking of 1903 & 1908 Colts in .32 ACP & .380 ACP. Same for the Walther PP & PPK. All were intended to be carried in a "gentlemen's" pocket. Along with these are the small revolvers with bobbed or enclosed hammers in .32 & .38 S&W. Yes, all are wimpy by 9mm Parabellum standards. But, they were quite popular, and in my books - classics. And, I give credit due to those popular pistols in .25 ACP.

BTW, my most commonly carried concealed pistol is a Kel-Tek PF9.

[brewer12345]

2) Is the 9x18 a "pocket caliber"?
Due to similar ME of the .380, and being far behind the 9mm Parabellum, I do consider it a "pocket pistol". By "pocket pistol", I am thinking of 1903 & 1908 Colts in .32 ACP & .380 ACP. Same for the Walther PP & PPK. All were intended to be carried in a "gentlemen's" pocket. Along with these are the small revolvers with bobbed or enclosed hammers in .32 & .38 S&W. Yes, all are wimpy by 9mm Parabellum standards. But, they were quite popular, and in my books - classics. And, I give credit due to those popular pistols in .25 ACP.



I would make an argument against a Makarov being a pocket pistol. This was the standard military and police sidearm of the Soviet bloc for decades. That means it was expected to reliably perform in a region with long, cold winters and heavy clothing. Makarovs are still used to this day by reserve troops. Ain't no vest pocket pistol. If nothing else, it is too heavy.

As a CC option it is probably not far from the capability of the 9X19 pocket rockets. If I really expected trouble I would not be carrying a handgun of any kind (00 bucket is "to whom it may concern"), but in a pinch I have zero doubts that my Makarov would reliably work and Inside of 20 yards I have no doubt about my ability to light em up with it.

[USSR]

You are correct. The 380 ACP with a FMJ flat nose and decent meplat will penetrate twice as far.

Oh yeah, the FBI and police departments were falling all over themselves to ditch the FBI Load and start carrying the .380 ACP.:grin:

Don