410 India made Ball tight fit

[MotelAlpha]

I bought a container of the India made 410 cartridges with a lead ball measuring right at .409. The lead seems soft, but I don't have a gauge to measure hardness. My question is will this be safe to shoot in my Baikal SxS I slugged the bores and they are .018 (.391)smaller in diameter than the ball from the cartridge. Surely full choked.The barrel thickness at the muzzle is thicker then my other 410 by quite a bit, and measure .081 each.

[RMc]

I suspect this is the .410 ammunition you have is the 410-inch-mk1-indian:

https://www.luckygunner.com/410-inch-mk1-indian-musket-98gr-musket-ball-180-rounds

[Outpost75]

The modified Lee Enfields used by India police are cylinder bore. Unless you can test the hardness of the balls as not exceeding 6 BHN I would NOT shoot them in a choked barrel.

[jdfoxinc]

Would these work in a judge?

[MotelAlpha]

Yep, thats the stuff. I bought it on lark of curiosity, but also for some additional brass. There isn't any actual shooting information out there, so I am kind of looking to find out for myself.

[MotelAlpha]

jdfoxinc, I would think since the judge barrel is essentially a 45cal, that there would be no problem. That should also be a great small varmint gun you have, or ????

[Hogtamer]

small bores already operate at higher pressures and that's a lot to swage down imo.

[jdfoxinc]

I'd shoot these for plinking. I also have a snake charmer cylinder bore.

[MotelAlpha]

small bores already operate at higher pressures and that's a lot to swage down imo.
I know as the 410 is rated pressure wise a lot higher than the others (15K to 18k). I also just watched a video of some guys shooting 44 mag, and 444 out of a full choked 410? bore measured .387 I think. My guess is that with the long chamber is allowing the high pressure to run a fairly long length instead of just and only in front of the cartridge??

[Outpost75]

I know as the 410 is rated pressure wise a lot higher than the others (15K to 18k). I also just watched a video of some guys shooting 44 mag, and 444 out of a full choked 410? bore measured .387 I think. My guess is that with the long chamber is allowing the high pressure to run a fairly long length instead of just and only in front of the cartridge??

Sounds to be to be an almost sure way to burst a barrel. Speaking from experience here, my childhood gun was a .410 single-shot and I used to shoot .44 Game Getter roundball loads in it. These were a pure lead .425" round ball and worked fine. Then sometime later I tried handloading and cast balls from wheelweights, loaded some up with 8 grains of Unique and split the muzzle behind the choke on the first shot when the harder wheelweight ball wouldn't squeeze through the choke. I cut the split muzzle off with a tubing cutter and the remaining bore was .425 and I've continued using it as my snake gun around the farm ever since.

221311

[bikerbeans]

The manufacturer of this 410 ammo states these cartridges are not for standard 410 shotguns.

BB

[MotelAlpha]

I poured a cast of my barrels today, and found a VERY tight bore not reaching .408 till 13" back, and then to 410 at 16.5". So indeed this may be why I have heard of excellent accuracy ( no slug bouncing around, and quite thick barrels from the breech on out."

[jdfoxinc]

So BB is a judge a non-standard shotgun?

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

So BB is a judge a non-standard shotgun?

It doesn't take a lot to understand that a Lee Enfield in .410 is NOT a standard .410.
The .303 Brit operates at a considerably higher pressure than any .410 shotshell load.
Yes, bikerbeans made an accurate statement.

[MotelAlpha]

When I get back from my vacation, I will send Precision reloading the requisite 6 rounds and have them document exactly what these are producing in both velocity and pressure. I'll post their findings.

[bikerbeans]

So BB is a judge a non-standard shotgun?

IMO, a Judge isn't a standard anything. The overbore might save you but the 45 colt and 410 are both low pressure loadings so I doubt Taurus made that wheel gun for high pressure.

BB

[MotelAlpha]

I agree , it was made for 1st gen 45 colt loads which is definitely low pressure.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Sounds to be to be an almost sure way to burst a barrel. Speaking from experience here, my childhood gun was a .410 single-shot and I used to shoot .44 Game Getter roundball loads in it. These were a pure lead .425" round ball and worked fine. Then sometime later I tried handloading and cast balls from wheelweights, loaded some up with 8 grains of Unique and split the muzzle behind the choke on the first shot when the harder wheelweight ball wouldn't squeeze through the choke. I cut the split muzzle off with a tubing cutter and the remaining bore was .425 and I've continued using it as my snake gun around the farm ever since.



I think what the OP describes would be some way off sure to burst a modern .410 barrel, but not as far off as I would want to actually do it. The British-Indian .410 cartridge is .303 length, which offers two perhaps unsuspected additions to the danger. Shotgun bursts generally happen when something happens to decelerate the missile, and the 3in. chamber most .410s for the American market now have would give a much better chance for this to happen than one ending immediately ahead of the ball. Also the ball may upset even further over bore diameter than it started out, increasing the impact. A soft ball might actually increase the chances of trouble.

You, on the other hand, were more unlucky. While an over-hard missile, such as steel shot, can indeed swell the choke of an old barrel in soft or thin steel, a split behind the choke wouldn't be caused by this. What happens is that the gases, which have mass and inertia, build up in a very local area of high pressure behind the projectile. In your case it happened with thin steel but low pressure, of the kind that would have been easy on the eardrums an inch or so further on. But at the front of the chamber it would be very dangerous indeed.

Here are my picture of a double ring bulge and a split, both experimentally induced by obstructions in a condemned but in fact exceptionally strong single shotgun barrel. With double the number of barrels, and a need to keep their weight down, they would have been much more dramatic.

221423

221424

What happens with the double ring bulge is that the high pressure gas buildup bulges the barrel, and then being elastic, bounces backwards. My obstruction, two steel nuts wrapped in tissue, moves forward slightly. The gases bounce off the rear interior of the cartridge case and come back again, bulging the barrel in a new place.

Your lack of luck was that the ball didn't exit before the gases caught up.

[Apocalypse]

...the 45 colt and 410 are both low pressure loadings so I doubt Taurus made that wheel gun for high pressure...

Unless you have the Raging Judge. 454 Casull pressures means lots of 'wiggle room'.

[jdfoxinc]

Just received my 2 wood boxes. Boy they didn't want these to go bad. Wood case with steel banding, cotter pin lock, soldered closed steel inner box with liberal green laqure coating. "Take hold of wire loop tear off the lid by giving a sharp pull."

[jdfoxinc]

I assume these primers are corrosive.

[jdfoxinc]

Double post.

[Outpost75]

I assume these primers are corrosive.

Yes, and Berdan, which misfire or hangfire about 20% of the time unless smacked REALLY hard!

[Apocalypse]

Anyone know where these cartridges might be obtained in Canada?

[Reverend Al]

Anyone know where these cartridges might be obtained in Canada?

I've never seen these for sale up here in Canada so I'm planning to load my own using fire-formed .303 British cases. The tough part was finding .410" round balls. All of the common black powder round ball moulds were undersized (.390" or .395") which would be a "rattling" good fit for sure. I eventually managed to find an RCBS double cavity .410" round ball mould since they produce them as a limited production item from time to time. I plan to duplicate the military loading using some .410" card and fibre wads similar to what they loaded in the arsenal .410 Musket ammo. To fire-form the straight cases from standard .303 British brass I annealed them about 1/2 way down the case, primed them with a standard large rifle primer, charged them with about 8.5 grains of fast shotgun powder (Nitro 100 Trap shotgun powder in my case), added a 1/4 sheet of toilet tissue, then poured in bulk yellow cornmeal up to the case mouth, then added another 1/4 sheet of toilet tissue to hold it all in place. I used a piece of wood dowel to press the toilet tissue wads in place. Point the muzzle straight up in the air (so that the cases don't form lop-sided) and fire-form them. My rifle (shotgun?) is another "back burner" project that I have to get back to again. I formed a bunch of cases for it, but I still haven't fired up the new mould yet to produce the .410" round balls to load in it ...

https://i.imgur.com/cYtP7Lw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jjKzJzN.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dFA7lgv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fy3HB4D.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FToT3vI.jpg

[jdfoxinc]

Just made an agreement on this forum to purchase an Indian converted Enfield in .410. Really interested in ballistics report.

[jdfoxinc]

Thank you for the research. Now what powder is eq. to cordite?

[Reverend Al]

There were several types of cordite with different burning rates. In the standard .303 ball cartridges that cordite was close to IMR3031 or IMR4064 in burning rate. I'm thinking that this cordite for the .410 Musket cartridges would probably be closer to IMR4227 or Hercules / Alliant 2400. I have both of those powders and was planning to try both of them with conservative starting loads and work up. Now that I have a Labradar chronograph I'll check the loads to see how they compare to the listed military specs. Another ongoing project ...

[jdfoxinc]

Look forward to your report.

[BigMrTong]

I use IMR4227 and the .410 launching wad in my replicas


There were several types of cordite with different burning rates. In the standard .303 ball cartridges that cordite was close to IMR3031 or IMR4064 in burning rate. I'm thinking that this cordite for the .410 Musket cartridges would probably be closer to IMR4227 or Hercules / Alliant 2400. I have both of those powders and was planning to try both of them with conservative starting loads and work up. Now that I have a Labradar chronograph I'll check the loads to see how they compare to the listed military specs. Another ongoing project ...

[Reverend Al]

So you're using IMR4227 and a similar card and fibre wad stack as shown in the military spec sheets? That's what I was thinking too ...

[BigMrTong]

I use this wad ...

https://www.claygame.co.uk/410-gualandi-launching-wad-pd350

Over IMR4227. Weirdly I found an undersized ball of .39 gave the best Acuracy. I shoot them from an Indian .410 Enfield.


So you're using IMR4227 and a similar card and fibre wad stack as shown in the military spec sheets? That's what I was thinking too ...

[bikerbeans]

This game looks fun, I think I will play too.

BB221938

[Reverend Al]

I use this wad ...

https://www.claygame.co.uk/410-gualandi-launching-wad-pd350

Over IMR4227. Weirdly I found an undersized ball of .39 gave the best Acuracy. I shoot them from an Indian .410 Enfield.

LOL ... it'll be just my luck that after all the time and trouble I went through to finally find a double cavity RCBS .410 RB mould that mine will shoot better with a .39 ball too! Interesting looking wad too. I might have a few somewhere on my bench that an avid .410 shotgun shooter gave me? It looks familiar so I'll have to go digging to see if I can find them.

[BigMrTong]

I think it’s those specific launching wads that suite the smaller ball.

[jdfoxinc]

Ballistic Products calls it a slug carrier wad. 0721641 for a 25 pack of wads with balls, 0721641C for 500 pak of just wads.

[BigMrTong]

that's the ones .. interesting to see they come with .380" balls now.


Ballistic Products calls it a slug carrier wad. 0721641 for a 25 pack of wads with balls, 0721641C for 500 pak of just wads.

[jdfoxinc]

MrBigTong, are you using the launching wad in the original brass cartridges or in modern?

Sorry BigMrTong.

[MotelAlpha]

I did fire a couple (6) yesterday, and the biggest gripe is you have to rotate the cartridge a couple of times to get them to go off. They must be made for a heavy striker. Accuracy..none worth mentioning. Will now attempt to remove the primers and fix for shotgun primers since MAGTECH is still back ordered. seem there was a fire at the factory in Brazil.

[jdfoxinc]

What drill bits do you use to convert to 209? I am trying to find an RCBS .410 shot shell sizing die. Then I can use my 22lrreloader.com kit to convert to small rifle primers.

[BigMrTong]

here you go ..

222561


What drill bits do you use to convert to 209? I am trying to find an RCBS .410 shot shell sizing die. Then I can use my 22lrreloader.com kit to convert to small rifle primers.

[BigMrTong]

Are you sure your Indian Enfield is still chambered for the musket round ? 9 out of 10 that have crossed my path have been bored out for .410 shotgun cartridges, either 2.5" or 3"

That would explain the symptoms you are seeing.


I did fire a couple (6) yesterday, and the biggest gripe is you have to rotate the cartridge a couple of times to get them to go off. They must be made for a heavy striker. Accuracy..none worth mentioning. Will now attempt to remove the primers and fix for shotgun primers since MAGTECH is still back ordered. seem there was a fire at the factory in Brazil.

[MotelAlpha]

What drill bits do you use to convert to 209? I am trying to find an RCBS .410 shot shell sizing die. Then I can use my 22lrreloader.com kit to convert to small rifle primers.

15/64, then a much larger one to accommodate the rim.....works perfectly

[nhithaca]

Made the same modifications to steel Russian shells but for a different gun; Saiga 410 autoload shotgun. These guns won't feed 2.5" shells from their 3" mags but cycle the steel case shells very well (these shells are made specifically for these guns). Used fiber 45 caliber wads made for BP shooting and standard plastic wads and loaded them with 444 Marlin dies. Seem to shoot fine. Also made shot shells out of 444 casings for the 2.5" Judge revolver; don't work so well due to the step in the cylinder required for the 45 Colt shell. Very hard to eject.

[jdfoxinc]

Just fired 20 in my Enfield @ 25 yd. Looked like 6" group low right. Mild recoil. Fun.

[nhithaca]

Just bought a case of these from the Lucky Gunner website. Very neat wood box, in fact I don't want to open it because it looks so retro. Maybe buy a second case and open the one that is in poorer shape!
Have one of these Enfield's and want to try the correct load in it. Have shot it with standard 410 shot shells and it's OK, but nothing special. Has no choke and 0.5 oz loads don't have a lot of shot.

Also got a box each of S&B's new 410 loads (2.5 and 3") loaded with buckshot and BB shot. Need to try those also. 2.5" is for the Judge and the 3" shells will be for a Sagia 410 auto or the Mossberg pump. Have not seen these shells offered anywhere else.