Trouble with 9mm 147 grain lyman

[cz75shadow]

Just purchased a new Lyman 356637 4 cavity, drops perfect bullets, but I can't seem to get them to stabilize in any of my 9mm pistols. Wondering what I may be doing wrong here. My lyman cast boolit manual does not even list this mold so having a bit of trouble with load data, so far I have only tried 3.0 and 3.5 grains titegroup. Have tried sizing to .356, .357, and .358 seated to 1.100 chambers and feeds perfect. Almost every round is keyholed. Not stable at all. I have cast and shot many thousands of rounds but this is the first time having any trouble. 3 different pistols, CZ75SP01 Shadow, Smith and Wesson M&P, and Glock 9mm, none of these pistols will shoot the lead worth a darn, but all shoot jacketed 147 grains perfectly.

I have also tried these bullets at .358 with 4 grains of Win 231 in my Ruger GP100 38 special, shoots perfect and very accurate. I must be doing something wrong. Any Ideas? Other powders? Thanks.

[glockfan]

could it be that your lead is too hard,then not gripping the riflings enough to stabilize? i have this exact mold and i need to size to .357 for my glock 17 and 34 to be accurate,but darn accurate.i'm using COWW with nothing added . my load for plinking is mild.

3.2 of VV320 at 1.130 coal .

[tazman]

I had problems with that boolit as well. Unfortunately, I don't have any of the pistols you mention so I can't give you specific recommendations.
I have never found that going harder with alloy makes the boolit grip the rifling less well. My experience has been the exact opposite. Too soft an alloy allows the rifling to shear the sides of the boolit destabilizing it. Harder alloy grips the rifling better.
Here is your data from the Lyman 49th handbook.
According to this, you are pushing the boolit too hard with an overcharge.
221199

[lotech]

I bought such a mould not long after they became available. As-cast diameter was .357", probably what it was supposed to be, but slightly too small for best accuracy in most 9mm pistols. I tried eight powders and nothing shot particularly well.

[tazman]

If you are looking for a good shooting heavy boolit for 9mm, try the NOE 358-155-TC(ELCO). It was designed for 9mm from the start and performs well in both 9mm and 38 special. In hollow point configuration, it drops right at 147 grains with range scrap.
Do a search on this site for tc(ELCO) and you will find several threads with lots of information on it.

[NoZombies]

I'm using that bullet cast from WW, sized .358 over 2.5 grains of TG, OAL 1.050". My Camp-9 loves the load, as does the M11/9mm. I haven't tried it in a handgun, but the M11 is a 5" barrel, and isn't having any stability issues. Both guns are accurate and quiet (suppressed) with that load.

[Grmps]

It's a new lyman mold.
first cast 5 sets of boolits and keep them separated by the cavity they came out of.
then measure and weigh each group of boolits to see if the boolits are round and uniform between the cavities
I've seen some terrible results out of newer Lyman multi-cavity molds 5-7 grains in weight and up to 4 thou in diameter between the 4 cavities
If the boolits are uniform and dropping around .357-.358
are you lubing or coating your boolits?
what alloy/ how hard an alloy are you using?
If you haven't slugged the bores of your guns I would do so.

Jacketed bullets often shoot fine undersized where lead will not.
with lead boolits, you need to match the diameter and hardness with the slugged bore size and speed your shooting the boolit.

Are you getting any leading?

I agree with tazzman
back off you powder charge to 2.5 grn titgroup (starting load) and try that, also try another powder in that list starting with the lowest charge and working up

[cz75shadow]

Thanks for all the replies. Will definitely back the charge down. Been using both the NRA formula lube and red dragon with carnuba, not seeing much leading at all. never have with any cast boolits using the red dragon. I Have randomly checked some of the boolits for size seems to consistently drop at .359-.360 with straight wheel weights.

[cz75shadow]

could it be that your lead is too hard,then not gripping the riflings enough to stabilize? i have this exact mold and i need to size to .357 for my glock 17 and 34 to be accurate,but darn accurate.i'm using COWW with nothing added . my load for plinking is mild.

3.2 of VV320 at 1.130 coal .

Just using wheel weights as well, sized to .358

[trapper9260]

I have that mold and have no problems with it. It is my go to one also.Not use in the guns that is stated, but works in my Sigma and M&P

[GhostHawk]

It has been my experience in 9mm that when you get keyholing the bullet is too small.

Now I can't swear that is the case for yours. And I won't bet the farm on it. Daddy taught me never bet the farm on anything.

But I would try a .358 or even a .359.

I've shot a lot of soft lead over the last 4 years, mostly with few problems.
I do much prefer 50/50 with COWW if I can find it, and add 1% tin/pewter.

Still fairly soft but works well in lower speed rifle and pistol.

Chamber cast? I've done slugging in the past but my opinion is you get more information from a good chamber cast or pound cast. That is where I would start, and bullets 2 thousandths larger than groove, maybe 3.

[oso]

Salutations from Nevada to Newfie Land!
This has been a good accurate boolit in my 9mms. Usually I start low with cast and work up until leading occurs or groups enlarge and call that over max in my firearm at that col. You ought to try a reverse procedure and work down until you get a stable group.
In any case I like the max col that will chamber in the intended firearms. So can you go longer than 1.100" col to avoid upset and limit riveting.
Yeah GhostHawk, I've learned a bit from pound casts.
Also I just use a sizer die just large enough to lube without damaging the boolit with a nose punch that keeps it straight.

[fivefang]

Cz 75 shadow, have you pulled any of your re-loads & ckd. the base diameter?, are you using a "M "die to expand your casings properly, as you are deep seating your bullets , I think the OAL should be 1.161" , I load cloes to that with the Saeco #383-140 gr.& it is very accurate in my CZ75, 213 Norinco, key-holing usually comes from undersize bullet bases, Fivefang

[cz75shadow]

Any longer than 1.100 oal and they will not chamber in my cz. Not using an M die, have to check that for sure! I have 3 different die sets for my 9's
lee, lyman, and rcbs, was using the rcbs expander and just belling the case mouth. May be onto something here. More than likely a couple issues going on.

[tazman]

I remember having to load short to get them to feed. Look at the load data from the Lyman manual I posted in #3. They recommend an OAL of 1.058". That is about where the sweet spot seems to be for this boolit and most chambers.
There is so much drive band on this boolit inside the case that keeping the base of the boolit full size can become an issue. That is why they beveled the base so much.

[joebaja]

A stout load of a slow powder is about the only way I got that one to stabilize most of the time. Anything faster burning that Power Pistol and it was a coin toss as to whether it would go through paper pointy-end-first. Mine drops a bit undersized so beagling the mold did help some too.

[cz75shadow]

Don't think I have any slower powder kicking around, have win 231, 296, H110, titegroup and 700x. Have to check and see what I can find locally. Usually do my powder orders in bulk to save $$$. Slower powder makes sense, I load a lot of rifle, and generally the heavier the bullet the slower the powder gives me the best accuracy, probably the same with the pistols

the 296/h110 are probably too far the other way..

[cz75shadow]

Cz 75 shadow, have you pulled any of your re-loads & ckd. the base diameter?, are you using a "M "die to expand your casings properly, as you are deep seating your bullets , I think the OAL should be 1.161" , I load cloes to that with the Saeco #383-140 gr.& it is very accurate in my CZ75, 213 Norinco, key-holing usually comes from undersize bullet bases, Fivefang

Are Lyman dies the only "M" type? perhaps I should order one for all the pistol calibers I load?

[tazman]

NOE makes that style of die for many calibers. With theirs, you buy a body and get inserts in the calibers you need. They also make custom plugs for Lee powder through dies.

[winelover]

Are Lyman dies the only "M" type? perhaps I should order one for all the pistol calibers I load?

Another option are the RCBS Cowboy dies, which are more cast bullet friendly in terms of sizing and expanding. They are made not to over size the brass and a little more generous in the expanding phase.

Currently, I am working with .359 diameter bullet in 9 mm. I am using my 38/357 cowboy die to expand the neck.........the button measures .356 compared to .352 in the the RCBS expander in the 9 mm carbide set. The button for the 38/357 carbide standard (non cowboy dies) measures .354 diameter.

Winelover

[cz75shadow]

Interesting info, never thought of using my .357 die, also managed to find a pound of universal powder locally, 52$ ouch!

[chutesnreloads]

Had the keyholing issue with my CZ too.Only thing that completely stopped it was going the powder coat route.

[cz75shadow]

Ok, so I measured my dies, the expander in the lee 9mm measured .355, the expander in the 38 special dies measured .357. Used a couple of small metal spacers in the top of the die and put the 38 expander in the 9mm body, ran through 50 or so pieces of brass and primed and loaded with 3.2 grains universal powder. Seated to 1.080 which seems to be the sweet spot when chamber checking the loads. Tested today and I am pleased to report no keyholes. Ran them at today's IDPA match, excellent accuracy. Ranges were from 7-18 yards and windy as hell. Very soft shooting compared to the too hot loads of titegroup. Only complaint is that universal powder will not meter worth a **** in my RCBS powder dispenser. Always something lol...

Guess I am ordering a M die for 9mm.

[tazman]

Glad you have your system working. Enjoy.