Hopkins and Allen 12 Gauge Falling Block???

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hello guys and a gals

My friend has a H&A 12 Gauge falling block which appears to be 1898 or earlier manufacture. It's a 11XX serial number and was marked with the earlier company name prior to the name (I believe H&A Manufacturing Co instead of Firearms Co) change in 1899
I was wondering if a safe smokeless load could be developed for this?
The gun is in good condition and it solid.
I guess the question is more of, can a safe smokeless load be developed for a BP shotgun action at all? I know in metallic it is done all the time but I wasn't sure with shotshell.

I would like to bring this little guy out for pheasant if possible.
Thank you all!

[Drm50]

I don't know the loads off hand but I have loaded smokeless in BP shotguns with steel barrels. I
think I got data from a Lyman manual from late 70s. I'm sure by now there is a specialty manual
on this subject. I will not load smokeless in Wire Twist barrels under any circumstances. I have
seen the results several times of barrels rupturing but have never seen Steel barrels rupture. I
know guys who shot low brass in the late 1880-90s guns and still do, but I wouldn't recommend
it without inspecting the model and the individual gun.

[NoZombies]

The short answer is yes, with caution.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Ok so I should do some more digging.
I’m guessing about the lightest 1oz or so trap loads I can find data on? Maybe 1 1/8?
All 2 3/4” shells. Small charges of fast burning powder. Probably all red dot or clays type stuff.

[NoZombies]

I don't have my info handy, but there are smokeless loads for 2.5" shells with 7/8 or 1 oz of shot. I believe 2.5" was the length of the chamber in the old H&A I owned years ago.

[webfoot10]

Those old shotguns with the 2.5" length chambers will take modern low brass shells, but
when fired in the 2.5" chamber it will cause high pressure spikes when the crimp opens
into the forcing cone. The modern shells are 2.3/4" fired and should only be fired in 2.3/4"
chambers. If you must load shells for this twiststeel barreled gun cut the 1/4" crimp off
your empty shot shells and work up a blackpowder load in the cutdown case. Your shell
will come out at 2.1/4" in length and will work with no pressure spikes. I had a modern
Husqvarna double with 2.5" chambers spring the barrel rib loose from the pressure
spikes with the cheap wallmart low brass skeet loads. If you don't want to reload, have
a gunsmith ream the forcing cone out 1/4".
webfoot10

[Michael J. Spangler]

Thank you for the info

This is a not a twist barrel. It's homogenous

[Drm50]

I made a jig for old 21/2" chambers. I use only paper hulls and rolling in jig cut the original crimp
off. I use fiber and card wads and use card over shot. No crimp- sealed with wax.

[Geezer in NH]

RST makes and sells 2 1/2 inch shells. KTP and LL Bean carry them in ME or they are just a click or phone call away.

http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/2-12-Gauge.aspx

[Michael J. Spangler]

thanks geezer!

[2152hq]

Black powder 12ga loads have a breech chamber pressure around 6500psi. +/- of course depending on the shot load and other variables of components. But it's right in that range.
The steel bbls of that era were proofed with either BP or a smokeless bulk powder, so I wouldn't equate their strength to a smokeless proof of today.

Most off the shelf 12ga shells today will run breech pressures in the high 10k to near 11k psi. Even the 'light target loads'.
Mfg'rs make them that way to make sure the work in every gun out there including the semiautos. They want them to work. If they fail, they lose customers.
Only a very few specialty shells from places like RST and PolyWad (Vintager Shells) are loaded to vintage gun low breech pressures

People who shoot vintage shotguns today and there is a large following, shoot both damascus/twist steel bbl'd guns right along with the early steel bbl'd ones.
Smokeless loads are made up to mimic the BP pressures or in many cases kept below that 6500psi mark.
The pressure curve of BP and that of the smokeless loads has been proven with modern lab tests (Tom Armbrust and others) to be right in the same curve together.

In Britain to this day, damascus bbl'd guns of any vintage along with their early steel bbl guns are proofed and reproofed right along with modern mfg guns. Same smokeless proof rounds, same specs for testing/pass/fail. No difference is seen, nor given to the composite mat'l bbl.
They don't fail at any more or less of a rate than modern steel bbl's. There is no minimum wall thickness for the bbl though most gunsmiths like to see at least .013" wall out at mid bbl,,just past the forend.

Anyway, I am using Allaint ClayDot powder currently for my 12ga reloads.
With it using published data you can make up 7/8oz loads that have breech pressures at and under 6000psi.
Perfect for an early piece like the H&A IF it's in good mechanical condition.
Here's a link to the data:
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=2&powderid=21&gauge=12

Some other powders like 7625 can do even lower pressures, but it and PB another good one have been discontinued.

RedDot usually brings in some higher 12ga pressures as it's more suited to heavier pay loads.
The lighter the shot load, the lower you can get the breech pressure
I shot CLAYS powder for years and there are some lower pressure loads around for that too.

SHort chambers are a deffinate possibility. 2 5/8" was a common 12ga chamber than.
The orig A.H Fox shotguns in 12ga were also 2 5/8". These are now and have been for decades shot with 2 3/4" shells.
The 'modern' plastic shell and plastic wad are thin and flexible. They make an easy entry into the forcing cone of the short chamber as opposed to the heavy paper case unfolding and the oversize hard cardboard wad and fiber filler making their way through the restricted area.
Most vintage shooters don't modify their early guns. Some do shoot 'short' ammo as bought or reloaded. Others just shoot their reloaded specialty low pressure 2 3/4 light loads in the 2 5/8" chambers with no problems.
Then some do have the forcing cones themselves lengthened to ease the entry of the wad and shot into the bore. But w/o lengthening the chamber itself. This is a halfway measure that seems to work well and does not remove any precious metal from the walls of the bbl at this critical area. Plus it leaves the chambers original which they like.

Go over to DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com

Lots of info on older shotguns, reloading for them, & some disagreement of course!
Geared to the SxS but you can load them one at a time too.

[John Taylor]

Several years back I had an H&A in 12 gauge. Decided to make a rifle out of it and chose an old black powder cartridge that would have less bolt thrust than a 12 gauge. I made a tap to thread the frame as I did not like the takedown screw set up.The frame is a soft cast iron and threaded easy with a fine thread. It is now a 32-40 and shot well.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hmmmm. That was another consideration too. I’ve been dying for a 22 Hornet or K Hornet but I don’t know if that would be too much pressure in that action.

[Jedman]

I have one that was a 12 ga. with the take down screw on the bottom. There are differences between the models with the screw in the side. I rebarreled mine to 50-70 and fire all smokeless loads in it.
Mine had a 2.060 long barrel shank so I silver soldered it into the frame so there is no slop and no headspace problem.

Jedman

[Michael J. Spangler]

Does anyone have a picture of the take down models?
Mine had a screw on the side that has a saddle ring on it.

[webfoot10]

I've seen a H&R shotgun that was turned into a .22 hornet by taking a ,22 hornet rifle
barrel and cutting it off and threading it into a barrel stub chambered for the hornet.
The stub was machined to fit the 12 ga chamber and the barrel used a machined
bushing on the front of the barrel to keep it centered in the 12 ga bore. He had to bush
the firingpin hole and modify the firing pin and extractor and rework the trigger. It worked,
but I would have just bought a handi-rifle and been done with it. You could do the same
with your falling block, just depends on how much you want to spend or do yourself.
There's a thread on here about making a .357 out of a trapdoor action, contact the OP
and get his advise. Will be watching this thread to see how you proceed.
webfoot10

[Jedman]

221251
Does anyone have a picture of the take down models?
Mine had a screw on the side that has a saddle ring on it.

This is a pic of the action from, Single Shot Rifles and Actions by Frank de Haas
This view is of the frame with the take down screw on the side. I have looked at many of them and I believe my gun has a slightly longer frame with the screw on the bottomside as Frank de Haas shows the barrel shank to be only 1.560 long on the side mounted take down screw frame.
Mine has a few minor differences with the internal parts such as , my hammer has a roller where it bears against the mainspring and the mainspring in mine does not fit into a slot in the lower tang.
Frank de Haas does mention to not use the large shotgun frame for a 22 Hornet because of the barrel is not threaded into the action and the questionable material that the frame is made of.
You can do the math to compare the breech thrust of a 22 Hornet to a shotshell and judge for yourself if it seems safe but the barrel does need to be threaded or soldered to the frame solidly because the take down design is very weak.

Jedman

[Jedman]

221252Sorry for the upside down picture, My I pad showed it right ? Jedman

[Michael J. Spangler]

Awesome info thank you.
I guess I just really need a handi rifle

[justashooter]

http://baschieri-pellagriusa.com/

had low pressure 2 and 2.5" shotshells last time i ordered a case for older doubles. call them.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Thank you!

I found some tricks online I load 2 1/2” shells on a MEC