38-55 max load??

[KenH]

Hello all, as you might have read in another thread I've just got a 30-30 barrel bored for 38-55 by JES. I do NOT plan to normally load max loads, not by any means. My old shoulders just don't take recoil as they did years ago. BUT - for a max hunting load for whitetail deer in Alabama 'n Mississippi - just how much would be "too much" for a 1960's era Marlin 336 action? I read the 30-30 is normally a 42,000 PSI (CUP?) rated cartridge. Would it be ok to load a hunting load for the 38-55 to the same pressures?

It seems the 38-55 cartridge was loaded to 30k CUP which is plenty of power - and more recoil than I'd care to handle. Looking at QL (seems I remember QL isn't as accurate with straight wall cartridges as with bottle necks?) using the Lee .379-250-F cast bullet and 3031 power which I've got on hand I get the following:

30 grain = 17,751 psi with 1537 fps (this would be a nice light shooting load)
34 grain = 25895 psi with 1781 fps (this would be a nice hunting load)
36 grain = 313151 psi with 1905 fps (Would this not be a safe load?)
38 grain = 37965 psi with 2029 fps (Why would this not be a "safe" load since the action is designed for 42K psi?)

Mostly this discussion is just that, discussion and a learning experience for me from ya'll who are so much more knowledgeable than I am.

Today I'm loading a few rounds with 8 grains unique for getting rifle sighted in and see what that will do. Should be a nice light plinking load 1100 or so fps.

Ken H>

[earlmck]

I'm with you Ken -- since you have a modern 30/30 rifle action the standard 30/30 pressure levels will be just fine. So you are no doubt on the right track for a hunting load with about any level of 3031 that will fit in the case (my cases wouldn't hold anywhere near 38 grains with that boolit and I'll bet yours won't either).

[Texas by God]

A 250gr @2000 fps would not be pleasant from the bench. I'd go for 1600-1800 fps if safe and hunt with confidence.

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[KenH]

A 250gr @2000 fps would not be pleasant from the bench. I'd go for 1600-1800 fps if safe and hunt with confidence.
I'm in total agreement with you on the recoil at 2,000 fps when shooting from bench.

my cases wouldn't hold anywhere near 38 grains with that boolit
You're correct, QL shows 34 grains of 3031 with 103% case, I'd expect you might compress the load. 38 grains is 115% and wouldn't even try that. I was using those numbers as a way to show pressures 'n fps. Perhaps I should have chosen a tad faster powder so the case would have held it all?

IMR4227 with 29 grains gives 40,602 psi but only 1941 fps and 90% case full. For many years I used 3031 in the old 30-30 and hoped to continue using 3031.

edit to add: I just checked the 2.082" Starline brass I have. With primer installed in new not fired brass with 3031 powder, a level case if 44 grains. 38 grains would have .170" of compression to seat Lee .379-250-F cast bullet to crimp groove.

Ken H>

[northmn]

At some point the cast bullet will need to be gas checked. I would say the 34 grain would be about as hot as expected for that reason. If I were really going to hot rod a 38-55 I would look at jacketed. Vollmer claims his 220 grain is popular. With cast you start running into issues of alloys hardness, gas checking and so forth. A hard cast bullet that can take a bit of hot rodding may not perform all that well. I was able to get accuracy with a gas checked 30-30 at 2000 fps however and it worked well, but it was water hardened, then the nose annealed.



I have the Lee mold and lost accuracy when my chronograph started showing over 1600. From a pure pressure standpoint I had laoded hotter.


DEP

[KenH]

At some point the cast bullet will need to be gas checked.
Oh, I'm well aware of the issues with max fps on cast bullets. I normally powder coat (lubed with Alox for many years), and with PC and gas checks, I expect 2,000 fps would be just fine..... especially with a hard alloy.

My purpose in the thread wasn't so much what would actually work, but a desire to explore how much pressure it was felt was safe to load the 38-55 with Starline brass in a 1960's era Marlin 336. It seems like it would be safe to load to 30-30 pressure of 42K psi. Boy, with 250 grain bullet, that would pack a whomp on both ends. My old shoulders don't take much of a whomp these days.

Thanks to all for comments.

Ken H>

[ulav8r]

Back in the day, Hi-Speed loads were offered at 1800fps. That should be plenty for deer, even elk or moose within 100 yards.

[northmn]

My 38-55 is a Marlin Cowboy with the 24" barrel. I would see no reason one could not load it up to 30-30 pressures as I also had its twin in 30-30. I loaded some Barnes 255 jacketed up to about 1650 with a powder that filled the case and barely let me seat the bullet. I have not tried any max loads I have seen listed. Few days ago I went back into the archives and saw some pretty impressive loads with RE 7 and 4895 that were hitting close to 1800. 5744 was another powder some used. In a few cases the powder used limited the loads as much as the pressure as they fill the case with a heavy bullet.


If I were really looking to make a whomping load with no concern for my shoulder, I would try to get the Lyman gas checked mold and work with it as that would take anything you could wring out of the cartridge. Have not seen a mold available new and really can get by with my Lee mold so I am not really shopping, but it would have a lot of potential. I have been able to up th3e Lee mold a bit by using Lee Liquid Alox coating. As I only hunt deer I also feel little need for a max load.

DEP

[northmn]

I lied. I just looked and Midway has the Lyman 265 grain gas checked mold. $78 for the mold and $37 for the gas checks. Almost tempting. Sometimes just the desire to experiment with something out weighs logic.

DEP

[Texas by God]

From an old Lyman book. I'd use a gas check and 3031 and go hunting.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180526/ed53b48dc6603be3a0f12aff8224bec2.jpg

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[Edward]

I lied. I just looked and Midway has the Lyman 265 grain gas checked mold. $78 for the mold and $37 for the gas checks. Almost tempting. Sometimes just the desire to experiment with something out weighs logic.

DEP You might try paper patching a Lee 255 gr PB ,I do and shoot as soft and fast as you like . Nochecks needed

[KenH]

You shoot paper patched in a lever action rifle?

Hey, with them giving 35 grains of 3031 that's going to be more whomp than I'll want to shoot.

[northmn]

You shoot paper patched in a lever action rifle?

Hey, with them giving 35 grains of 3031 that's going to be more whomp than I'll want to shoot.


That's why I mainly stay with the Lee mold. I got rid of a 45-70 lever because I did not enjoy it.

DEP

[Ramjet-SS]

I love shooting cast and as life puts years on my body I find that shooting heavy recoiling rifles is not for me anymore. Of course that is subjective based on ones ability to endure the recoil of certain rifles.

to answer your question yes the rifle is designed around its mechanical ability to handle a certain amount of bolt thrust caused by the diameter of the case head and pressure. So yes modern built 38-55 can handle the same pressure as the 30-30.

it's interesting I have a Reeder 375 GNR#2 that is a 45-70 necked down to 375 that gun of modern design can really put a 220 grain bullet down range with authority. Keeping it within the design parameters of the modern Marlin 45-70 pressures same thrust against the bolt. But I choose to shoot a 235 grain GC LFN around 2000 it hits like hammer. Well within the design parameters of the gun.

[ole_270]

I used 32-3031 with a PC'd NOE 38-250B (very similar to the Lee bullet your using) in my JES rebored Marlin last fall on a doe. My Chronograph shows 1600fps average in the carbine barrel. Shot was less than 30 yards broadside in the timber, the doe was stumbling by the 3rd jump and went maybe 30 yards total. That big meplat at that velocity gave more bloodshot than I expected on the entrance side. Lead was about 10-12 Bhn so that may of contributed. I'm planning on dropping back to around 1400 fps with 21-4198 next year for those woods range shots. I've had good luck with that one in the past, with no lack of penetration.

[Hickory]

This is how I would determine at what speed I would need to shoot the boolit.

1) Be honest as the maximum distance you will be shooting to harvest your animal. Most people kill their deer at 35-125 yards.
2) Consider the 38-55 a 44 magnum on steroids that will easily exceed 44 mag velocities by 200 fps, and shoot flatter if both are fired in a rifle length barrel.
3) Having decided the needs of the 38-55, adjust your velocities to meet your needs. 1750 fps will supply 95% of your needs.
4) Test boolit(s) to find an accurate load within the velocity needs.

[KenH]

Thanks to all for sharing info and thoughts on the strength of action. I've been on the road for a few days, Atlanta for Blade Show. The wife spends more money there than I do seeing different material she wants used on her knives.

I think the general consensus is the action will handle 42K pressure (30-30 level), but NO WAY do I really want to shoot many of those rounds. Many years ago when I was "young 'n dumb 'n full of...." I actually enjoyed a stout load. These days, I actually enjoy a mild load. Most of my shooting is to make holes in paper (or steel gong) and 1,000 fps to 1200 fps does that nicely is very easy on the shoulder.

Ken H>

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
Figuring box car loads of large white tails were shipped from Upper Michigan out east Thwapped with the 255's moving at sedate speeds powered by BP most any accurate load around 1500 fps is going to do all any of us really need.
Mike in Peru

[indian joe]

At some point the cast bullet will need to be gas checked. I would say the 34 grain would be about as hot as expected for that reason. If I were really going to hot rod a 38-55 I would look at jacketed. Vollmer claims his 220 grain is popular. With cast you start running into issues of alloys hardness, gas checking and so forth. A hard cast bullet that can take a bit of hot rodding may not perform all that well. I was able to get accuracy with a gas checked 30-30 at 2000 fps however and it worked well, but it was water hardened, then the nose annealed.



I have the Lee mold and lost accuracy when my chronograph started showing over 1600. From a pure pressure standpoint I had laoded hotter.


DEP

I have a 348 that I shoot 250 grain gascheck in - chrono 2330fps - about as much as a cast gascheck will take I think - alloy about like lyman no 2 -
Had a 375 big bore winny years ago - 38 grains RE7 behind a 220grain gascheck (didnt have a chrony those days but that was top jacketed load in the Hornady book)
Both of those shot ok cleaned up ok but new rifles with nice barrels
Now have a 38/55 but it shoots real nice with black and that was the point of getting it so have not shot smokeless in it for several years - If it was me I would cast that LEE 250 grain pretty soft and load it for about 1650 - Mr Whitetail dont look all that tough, but hes flighty, would think a lead slug with good expansion would be the best trick - do some internal damage rather than ventilate him with a hard cast slug that spends half its energy on a tree trunk after exit. Much of this will depend on how slick the barrel is .

[beltfed]

I found a Nice load, modest for my 1893 Marlin, and now use the same load in my
336CB 38-55:
28 gr Reloader 7 under either the Lyman 255 or the 265 gr gas check.
For the 255 plain base I load it with a 0.060 LDPE wad against the base of bullet.
About 1750fps.
the 336 CB will put them into close to cloverleaves at 100 yds and not too hard on the shoulder.
Now I am working up loads, probably just a couple more grains of Re7 under the
NOE 379-235gr GC Ranchbullet. I like the larger flat meplat of this bullet.
My bullets are all cast from my usual 9+1 WW/Lino.
Still working on killing a deer with the 336CB, but the deer are not cooperating.
Have killed many deer with the M86 45-70 /457383 bullet clocking about 1740fps.
Never more than 100yds in No. WI.
I expect the 38-55 will do just fine.
In fact I took my second last buck with my 1st year production orig. M92 Win 44 WCF/200gr HPGC /22 4227
at about 65 yds broadside. One shot thru heart and out the other side. Deer went about 70yds and died.
The M92 rifle, 26" Oct full mag, will put the bullet into a cloveleaf at 75 yds.

beltfed/arnie

[KenH]

........... 28 gr Reloader 7 under either the Lyman 255 or the 265 gr gas check.
For the 255 plain base I load it with a 0.060 LDPE wad against the base of bullet. About 1750fps.
the 336 CB will put them into close to cloverleaves at 100 yds and not too hard on the shoulder...........
beltfed/arnie

Arnie - what's the purpose of the LDPE wad at base of bullet? Does this serve the purpose of the gas check? Or, help at least allowing higher velocity than with only plain base? If so, what do you consider your max velocity without LDPE wad at base of bullet?

Ken H>

[44 flattop]

I shoot a soft 280 grain cast using 3031 for 1950 fps in my Marlin CB. Great accuracy, 1.5" groups at 100 yards for three shots, no leading with a Hornady GC. Can't say enough good about the load, it shoots plumb through even big Roosevelt elk!

[Marlin356]

Better a heavy boolit goin slower than a hotrod load.