My 1st. 9mm

[oldhenry]

First of all......a confession is in order: I've bad mouthed the 9mm all of my adult life. I was a big boolit advocate & even in my .357 & .38 spec. loads I leaned toward the #358429. My favorite caliber is the .45 Colt & recently the .44 spec. is running a close 2nd..

About 15 or 20 years ago a friend bought a 9mm & came to my house to try it out. I regularly shoot @ IHMSA chickens @ 50 yd. , but since the 9mm was not a target model, we tried it @ 25 yds. & then 20. The 9 would barely tip over the chickens & sometimes fail to do so with a solid hit. My .38 spec. loads always put them down for the count, so I deducted that the 9mm was weak & at best no better than the factory 158 RN that was in wide use.

I now realize that present day 9mm loads are much improved. A church friend (GBI) tells me that the GBI now uses the 9 & have dropped the .40.

The LGD does not have a large inventory, but a dealer 70 miles North has one of the best in the State. I dithered between the Kimber Micro 9 & the Ruger 06758 SR1911 officer's model. The kimber was lighter & more compact & the Kimber quality is well known. Everything other than the weight was about equal except the trigger. I tried 4 different Kimbers (he had 10-15 in the show case) & the trigger pull was not good (I estimate @ over 6 lbs.). They only had 1 Ruger & the pull was close to 4 lbs. with a very slight creep. I figured I could easily cure the slight creep whereas reducing the Kimber pull might be a problem. I'm of the opinion that a light gun is good to carry, but one slightly heavier would be a better shooting platform. I bought the Ruger.

I need some input on boolit weight as a mold is the next move. I've considered the Arsenal 358-125-TC, Arsenal 358-135-RF & even the Lee 356-120-TC (6 cav.). I plan to use cast boolits for practice & will probably carry the Speer 124gr. Gold Dot. Any suggestions are welcomed.

I have Longshot, CFE Pistol & HP38 (listed in Hodgdon's recent manual for 124gr. loads) as well as red dot, blue dot & Unique. Any other powder recommendations would also be appreciated.

I didn't mean to ramble.

Henry

[nagantguy]

Congratulations on a fine auto! I also was always underwhelmed by 9mm also and haven’t owned one in years like you I’ve been intrigued by the newest self defense rounds. I just built a 9mm AR and it’s quickly becoming my favorite and it takes
The same mags as the Glock family of 9mm! Now I need some molds!

[Petrol & Powder]

oldhenry - long time 9mm user here.

The 9mm Luger is much maligned despite its 116 year history (only 4 years younger than the 38 Special).
A LOT of the 9mm lore is based on outright lies and misinformation. Some of that slander was intentional and probably designed to favor American cartridges. In its typical round nose, FMJ configuration; it is lackluster as a self defense cartridge. However, with a well designed HP and loaded to its full velocity potential - it has a good track record. Those that are biased against it will always find some anecdotal evidence to show it in a bad light but that can be true of any cartridge.

The 9mm Luger is and always has been, a high pressure cartridge. Of course, as you pointed out, that doesn't mean every 9mm Luger cartridge is loaded to its full potential. The SAAMI limit for 9mm Luger is 35,000 psi and 9mm +P is 38,500 psi. From a pressure viewpoint, it is right in line with the .357 magnum at 35K psi.

The bullet diameter for the 9mm is .355" which also compares favorably to the .357" of the 38 Special & 357 mag.

Before anyone gets upset, I'm not directly comparing the 9mm Luger to the .357 magnum; I'm just pointing out that max pressures and bullet diameters are in the same league.

NATO was perfectly happy with the 9mm but in fairness, the Europeans had always liked the 9mm. The U.S.A. finally got on board with the rest of NATO, although we went kicking and screaming the entire way.

When you get beyond all of the blatant misinformation and downright hate, the 9mm Luger has a lot to offer. It is a compact rimless cartridge that launches a bullet of decent diameter and weight at respectable velocities. AND, it has been doing that for 116 years.

As for bullet weights, I've never been a fan of either light or heavy for caliber projectiles. Standard bullet weights for calibers became the Standards for a reason. In the 9mm Luger the 115-125 grain bullets work just fine!
I'm always amused when someone loads a heavy for caliber bullet in a cartridge and acts as if they've discovered a new element or decoded a DNA chain.

As a target load the 9mm with a 120gr bullet will get the job nicely. It's flat shooting, doesn't have a lot of recoil and will not beat up the gun or shooter.

For a self-defense cartridge I would just find the hottest factory 115 - 125 grain cartridge that your gun will reliably cycle and call it a day.

When picking a SD cartridge your criteria should be, in this order: 100% reliable in your gun, reliable penetration, reasonably reliable expansion without compromising penetration and reasonably accurate.

[tazman]

I agree with almost everything Petrol and Powder said. The only place I differ is my opinion of heavy for caliber boolits. For self defense the 115 and 125 grain range is very hard to beat.
Since you like to shoot silhouette, the heavier boolits may work better for you in that circumstance. The extra momentum would help knock down the steel.
The powders you have listed should work fine. I run them in my 9mm Springfield Range Officer 1911, as well as Bullseye and AA7.
I use the NOE version of the 135 RF and the Lee 120 tc as well as the Lyman 356402 120 grain tc for the majority of my practice.
For the heavyweight I recommend the NOE 358-155-TC(ELCO). It has shown itself to be completely reliable and accurate in all my 9mm handguns. It drops at .358 with range scrap and right at weight with my mold. In hollow point configuration, it drops at 147 grains making data easy to come by.
This boolit was designed for the 9mm from the start but due to it's diameter can be used in 38/357 as well. You may want to size it down slightly for 9mm but if it will chamber unsized in your pistol, shoot it that way.
Do a search for TC(ELCO) on this site's search engine and you can get the benefit of several pages of experience from several people who have been using this boolit for a couple of years now.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

3.8 gr of RedDot under a 124gr boolit works good for me

[nicholst55]

Be sure to read the sticky on Cast in the 9mm: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

[oldhenry]

nagantguy,
It's my understanding that the 9mm responds very well to barrel length. If that understanding is correct, that 9mm AR should be very effective.

Petrol & Powder,
Thanks for your response. It reminded me of a Jeff Cooper book (that I thought I had......but can't find). One page had a B/W full page photo of a victim in the ER that was shot 21? times with a 9mm & survived. My memory may be wrong, but I do remember a large number of hits. Cooper made his case for the .45 ACP & 10mm. I prefer the .45ACP, but I need something small for CCW for summer wear & @ my age can't handle a 3.6 bbl. lightweight .45ACP.

Tazman,
Thanks for your response. I will not be making any 50 yd. shots with this gun, but it'll be perfect for "combat chickens" @ 20 yds. (I shot a few today with Fiocchi 124 FMJ & they all fell.......but not with the gusto of a .45,.44., or a decent .38 spec. load).

Your positive mention of the Lee 120TC helps.

LUCKYDAWG13,
Thanks for that load tip.

nicholst55,
Thanks for that sticky.....a wealth of 9mm info.

Henry

[nagantguy]

Accordingly to ballistics by the inch 14.5 would be the ideal barrel length for
9mm as it is I’ve found this 16 inch to be extremely reliable no matter bullet or boolit weight or case material, and plenty accurate at a 100 and have rung the gong at 200 with regularity on my buddies back 40 range.

[GhostHawk]

I agree with Tazman about heavy bullets for shooting those chickens.

I've shot Red Dot in my 9mm's from 3 to 4.5 grains. The hotter loads were shot in a single shot handi rifle barrel and a Hipoint Carbine.

The Handi rifle barrel puts them in a 1.5 inch circle at 100 yards easy.

I do tend to load my pistol with the 3 grains of Red Dot under the .358 125 gr .357 bullet lubed with BLL.
Pretty mild, pretty accurate. Probably more accurate than I am. On a good day at 20 feet I can put 10 in a pop can sized group. But I suspect that could be much better with a better gun and shooter. I make no wild claims for either my Hipoint C9 or myself.

Except that it has gone bang every time I asked it to. I did have a couple of failure to feed issues and reworked the mag lips slightly using the "good" new factory magazine as my guide. It worked, now they both work. I suspect someone dropped a full mag and it landed on the lips changing the geometry slightly.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Enjoy the 9. Good round in my opinon, can be a lot of fun.

[Petrol & Powder]

oldhenry - that 9mm Ruger Officer's Model will serve you well. The 3.6" barrel may not be the best configuration for shooting steel chickens at 50 yards :o but I suspect that's not why you selected that gun.

It appears that you wanted a single action semi-auto and if you're proficient with that platform then it will serve you well.

As for a self-defense cartridge, you're going to get a phone book worth of suggestions, many of which will start with, "I use X".
Just because someone else uses "X" doesn't mean that "X" is right for you.

I will tell you based on actual street results, some 9mm loads have very good track records. The longest track record is probably the Federal 9BPLE round. The 9BPLE round doesn't always expand but it does feed well in most pistols and it generally penetrates well even when it doesn't expand. The Illinois State Police was one of the first LE agencies to go to the 9mm and they have a long history with the 9BPLE round. (the 9BPLE is rated +P+ in some loadings but not all)

The old Winchester controlled expansion rounds also have a long track record and generally do expand reliably, however the +P+ versions can be hard on pistols and I would avoid them in large quantities. The current Ranger SXT line has shown good results in actual shootings. Despite the hype, the 9mm Silvertip didn't always work as advertised.

There is no shortage of 9mm self-defense ammo on the market. Everyone makes something in that popular cartridge but a hollow point that has a pretty package and self-serving hype isn't necessarily the best self-defense cartridge. Not saying they are bad but I am saying that marketing isn't the same as actual performance.

As I said earlier, your criteria should be: flawless functioning, good penetration, reasonable terminal performance and accuracy.

115-125 grain 9mm bullets rarely have problems penetrating and in fact often penetrate very well unless the hollow point opens too quickly. I would strongly advise against the 147 grain bullets in any self-defense situation, they have an horrible record in the real world. They were designed for suppressed guns and that's where they belong.

Good Luck



P.S. Still digging that motorcycle in your avatar !

[oldsalt444]

Medium burn rate powders tend to work best in the 9mm. Power Pistol, Blue Dot, WSF and Unique are top choices. Faster burning powders like Red Dot, Bullseye, 231, etc. will work, as long as you're careful. Pressures can spike quickly with those. I shoot bullseye competition and earned some "leg" points with 4.3 gr. Power Pistol and a 115 gr. Hornady HAP seated out to 1.115" COL. 1" groups at 25 yards in my S&W 910. But that load is on the light side. Had to lower the spring weight. My best lead boolit load was 4.8 gr. Green Dot with a 122 gr. TC. Definitely a hot load, but accurate.

[lazs]

The only problem I have with the 9mm is.. that a lot of the guns are all over the map for chambers and barrel dia. and throats. most factory rounds will work in almost any of em but some of the new 'defense' rounds are a bit quirky.. for reloading? it is a mixed bag for me. for one thing 9mm ammo is cheap. I almost feel like I am wasting my time reloading it. For another.. it is a short and high pressure round.. things can go very bad very quickly with fast powders. Some cast bullets are too short to get a decent over all length with and will fumble in a lot of guns. The 38 spl.....357.... 38 super are all easy peasy to load and get safe performance out of compared to the 9... and.. every one of em costs a LOT more to buy factory. The 9 has some problems feeding in full size 1911 style pistols.. so the newer shorter mag well 9mm 1911's are much better in my opinion.. it is a pleasant round to shoot compared to say a 45 acp except.. the noise of a high pressure round is 'sharper'? At this point.. after trying my cast TC 124 grain bullets that don't work in every 9mm? I am down to cast 124 grain round nose bullets for the 9mm They work just fine.

lazs

[oldhenry]

oldhenry - that 9mm Ruger Officer's Model will serve you well. The 3.6" barrel may not be the best configuration for shooting steel chickens at 50 yards :o but I suspect that's not why you selected that gun.

It appears that you wanted a single action semi-auto and if you're proficient with that platform then it will serve you well.

As for a self-defense cartridge, you're going to get a phone book worth of suggestions, many of which will start with, "I use X".
Just because someone else uses "X" doesn't mean that "X" is right for you.

I will tell you based on actual street results, some 9mm loads have very good track records. The longest track record is probably the Federal 9BPLE round. The 9BPLE round doesn't always expand but it does feed well in most pistols and it generally penetrates well even when it doesn't expand. The Illinois State Police was one of the first LE agencies to go to the 9mm and they have a long history with the 9BPLE round. (the 9BPLE is rated +P+ in some loadings but not all)

The old Winchester controlled expansion rounds also have a long track record and generally do expand reliably, however the +P+ versions can be hard on pistols and I would avoid them in large quantities. The current Ranger SXT line has shown good results in actual shootings. Despite the hype, the 9mm Silvertip didn't always work as advertised.

There is no shortage of 9mm self-defense ammo on the market. Everyone makes something in that popular cartridge but a hollow point that has a pretty package and self-serving hype isn't necessarily the best self-defense cartridge. Not saying they are bad but I am saying that marketing isn't the same as actual performance.

As I said earlier, your criteria should be: flawless functioning, good penetration, reasonable terminal performance and accuracy.

115-125 grain 9mm bullets rarely have problems penetrating and in fact often penetrate very well unless the hollow point opens too quickly. I would strongly advise against the 147 grain bullets in any self-defense situation, they have an horrible record in the real world. They were designed for suppressed guns and that's where they belong.

Good Luck



P.S. Still digging that motorcycle in your avatar !

Thanks for the information. I've been using a 5" SR1911 in .45ACP which works fine in cool weather when covered with a blazer. It's getting warmer & in July & August it will be too hot for a coat. The smaller Officer model can be covered with a "untuckit" shirt.

P.S. I'm in the final stage of a build on a Honda GB500 (AKA the "TT"). If you want I'll email some photos.

Henry

[oldhenry]

oldsalt444,
Thanks for this info on powder choices.

Henry

[tazman]

I have 9mm pistols in Beretta 92fs, Taurus PT92, Springfield XD-E, Springfield XD mod2 tactical, Springfield 1911, and S&W 929.
The pistols I have feed well with any round nose and TC design I have tried. The 1911 have some issues with boolits that need to be seated to a short OAL. The longer OAL feed fine.
The Springfield 1911 has a target/match chamber and will not accept some of the larger diameter boolits. The Beretta and Taurus will eat anything I can stuff into a case no matter the diameter or OAL.
I think the Beretta would feed dirty gravel.
In almost all cases, I get my best accuracy with nearly full power loads. The S&W 929 likes everything. Light loads, full power loads, large diameter, small diameter, and any OAL at all given that it is a revolver with a long cylinder in relation to the cartridge.

[oldhenry]

lazs,
There is a lot of wisdom in using the RN design. For years about 90% of my .45ACP shooting was with the #452374........never a bobble. Only after DougGuy improved the throat did I have 100% confidence in the 068 design.

Thanks for your response.

Henry

[Rick R]

FWIW When I was teaching I managed to down full sized Pepper Poppers at 100 yards using a 4” 9mm loaded with 124gr Winchester ball. IMHO The 9mm was designed around the 125gr-ish loads and Herr Luger knew a bit about guns. I think the 125gr Gold Dot is an excellent choice and that is what rides in most of my and my wife’s guns.
115gr ball hasn’t impressed me in the accuracy or velocity department. It is an Americanized loading as are the high velocity 115gr jhp loadings. The current fad is for 147gr loads but I choose to remain dubious as I remember the 147gr SubSonic fad of the 90’s.
I admit I haven’t been shooting cast in my 9’s and I’m curious enough to buy a mold or six in the coming year.

[Petrol & Powder]

P.S. I'm in the final stage of a build on a Honda GB500 (AKA the "TT"). If you want I'll email some photos.

Henry

Post them here !

[oldhenry]

Post them here !

Will do when completed.
Henry

[RJM52]

If you would like something a little heavier than that standard 124s, take a look at the SAECO 383... You can buy some bullets to test from Montana Bullets:

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/9mm-saeco-383-140gr-swc-pb/

Have found this to be the most accurate yet in a 9mm or .38 Super...

Otherwise just a good 124 TC works great....

Bob

[oldhenry]

Rick R & RJM52,
Your post + the collective info from others convinces me that my original thought on the 124gr. to be the way to go.
A friend has a 6 cav. Lee 120TC that he has offered to loan me......it'll allow me to find out if my Ruger likes the TC shape. If so I think I'll go with the Arsenal 124TC (unless the 120TC Lee wins me over).

I slugged the bbl. today & was somewhat surprised: The 3 measurements (with a micrometer)were .35540, .35540 & .35550. I had been under the impression that most of the Ruger 9s were .357. Maybe Lathesmith can come up with a .35650 or a tight .357.

I also weighed the trigger pull: it'd hold a 4.5, but not a 4.75. I disassembled & very very lightly polished the trigger stirrup (no engagement surfaces) with 1500 (worn out) paper. I also did the same to the paddle surface of the disconnector. This improved the smoothness somewhat & will now hold 4.25 but not 4.5. A slight creep remains (better than before) & I suspect the channel in the frame for the trigger stirrup. I'll just shoot it a while to see if it improves or at least develop some rub evidence.

Henry

[charlie b]

I am also a recent convert to the 9mm. I have watched bullet development over the last few years and came to the conclusion that the 9mm will do well, as well as being a little cheaper to load than my long time favorite .45 ACP (I do not cast). And if I need to buy ammo for it there is nothing cheaper than the 9mm. So, I picked up an HKVP9 and put quite a few rounds through it. Mostly 115gn ball. I use AA#7 for these. A 4" steel disk at 50yd can be hit if I do my part.

I do use it for carry and after some research picked the Hornady defense loads. Got some for my 9x18mak as well.


Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[Petrol & Powder]

Rick R & RJM52,
Your post + the collective info from others convinces me that my original thought on the 124gr. to be the way to go.
A friend has a 6 cav. Lee 120TC that he has offered to loan me......it'll allow me to find out if my Ruger likes the TC shape. If so I think I'll go with the Arsenal 124TC (unless the 120TC Lee wins me over).

I slugged the bbl. today & was somewhat surprised: The 3 measurements (with a micrometer)were .35540, .35540 & .35550. I had been under the impression that most of the Ruger 9s were .357. Maybe Lathesmith can come up with a .35650 or a tight .357.

I also weighed the trigger pull: it'd hold a 4.5, but not a 4.75. I disassembled & very very lightly polished the trigger stirrup (no engagement surfaces) with 1500 (worn out) paper. I also did the same to the paddle surface of the disconnector. This improved the smoothness somewhat & will now hold 4.25 but not 4.5. A slight creep remains (better than before) & I suspect the channel in the frame for the trigger stirrup. I'll just shoot it a while to see if it improves or at least develop some rub evidence.

Henry

That's a good plan.

The 115 - 125 weight is the way to go. The 9mm achieves its performance with velocity more so than mass. Going heavier than 125 gives you more mass, more bearing surface but less velocity. I think that 10 grain spread between 115 & 125 is right where that bullet needs to be and over 100 years of empirical evidence sides with me.

The TC bullet profile works [read that as feeds] in a lot of guns AND yields a bit more bearing surface with the same weight as a RN design (a LOT like the 200 gr 45 ACP bullets that have proven so reliable and accurate).

[robertbank]

My favourite cast bullet that runs well in all my nines is the Lyamn 356402 bullet. Put 4.1 gr of 231/HP38 under that bullet and the misses are on you. I have used that combo for the last 11 years shooting IDPA and some IPSC. I load the cartridge on the short side at 1.10". If I go jacketed 4 Gr of Titegroup works and is on the warm side I should add. I use the 124 gr Montana Gold bullet.

Take Care

Bob

[Tom W.]

Ok, Oldhenry, what store did you go to? I'm about 70 miles north of you......

When I lived in Eufaula I bought some guns at a store in Albany, then they moved to a fancy building in Leesburg, I think, just before the Albany city limits. They have since closed....

I shoot the 124 gr. Lee tc boolits using carnauba red lube. All of my 9 mm pistols that I have, or had, shot them very well. I sized them to .358 and they did well, except for my newest pistol, so I went to .357 and all is well.....

[oldhenry]

robertbanks,
Thanks for the 231/HP38 load. I have a good supply of HP38.

Tom W.,
I'm a native of Columbus & The Phenix City Pawn Shop (AKA Davis Sporting Goods) was an important part of my life in the early '60s along with Richardson Home & Auto on Hamilton Rd. in Columbus.

I found the Ruger @ Barrow Automotive in Butler, GA they have the best stock I've found in GA. Bo Barrow started out in the auto parts business & had a bad gun habit. He'd set up @ the gun shows & had good prices. Eventually his gun business got larger than the auto parts business.

Shooters in Columbus has improved recently......I visit there often.

Thanks for the input.

Henry
.................................................. .................................................. .............
A real sport involves either gasoline or gun powder.......all others are just games

[Tom W.]

I lived in Eufaula, but spent several dollars at Davis Sporting Goods. I shoot a lot at Shooters, and collect a lot of once fired brass from there. I've been told about Butler, but as of yet haven't made the pilgrimage there....

[gnostic]

I load 9mm with the Lee 120 grain TC bullet sized .358 and 3.9grains of Titegroup. They go thru my CZ75B like grease through a goose. I shoot at the USPSA steel targets and I'm trying not to knock them over with one shot, as I have to walk down range and stand them back up. I aim low and frequently hit the target five times before they fall over.

[9.3X62AL]

I favor the old standard 123-125 grain bullet that the 9mm Parabellum started life with in 1902. Full-snort loadings run the 125 grain bullet at 1225-1250 FPS, which are the ballistics of the current M9 loading in use by the Armed Forces. Most European 9mm loads take this form as well.

The much-ballyhooed 147 grain "Sub-sonic" loads favored by FBI and the agencies that subscribe to their uneven expertise is essentially a magazine-fed 38 Special, and not even a +P equivalent. A 125 grain bullet running 1225-1250 FPS is a healthy mid-point (and maybe a bit more) between the 38 Special and the 357 Magnum.

My carry-gun 9mm load is the Speer 124 grain +P Gold Dot. These clock in the 1240-1265 FPS range from my SIG P-226, and about 1200-1215 from Marie's P-228. I load either a 120 grain TC casting or a JHP of 125 grains to that velocity for practice and recreation. I have zero use for the FBI-pimped sub-sonic abominations. That is a down-load to enable unskilled shooters to have a better chance of qualifying on an already-unchallenging quals course.

[Lloyd Smale]

I shoot more 9mm ammo then every other caliber combined. Its a no brainer. 3-4 grains of powder a primer and a free bullets. Just as cheap as what 22 shells go for IF you can find them. much more fun to shoot to boot.

[Petrol & Powder]

I favor the old standard 123-125 grain bullet that the 9mm Parabellum started life with in 1902. Full-snort loadings run the 125 grain bullet at 1225-1250 FPS, which are the ballistics of the current M9 loading in use by the Armed Forces. Most European 9mm loads take this form as well.

The much-ballyhooed 147 grain "Sub-sonic" loads favored by FBI and the agencies that subscribe to their uneven expertise is essentially a magazine-fed 38 Special, and not even a +P equivalent. A 125 grain bullet running 1225-1250 FPS is a healthy mid-point (and maybe a bit more) between the 38 Special and the 357 Magnum.

My carry-gun 9mm load is the Speer 124 grain +P Gold Dot. These clock in the 1240-1265 FPS range from my SIG P-226, and about 1200-1215 from Marie's P-228. I load either a 120 grain TC casting or a JHP of 125 grains to that velocity for practice and recreation. I have zero use for the FBI-pimped sub-sonic abominations. That is a down-load to enable unskilled shooters to have a better chance of qualifying on an already-unchallenging quals course.

/\ completely agree /\

The 147 grain 9mm load was designed for use in suppressed submachine guns and that is where it should stay. It was a abysmal failure on the street when fired from a handgun.

The current NATO ball ammo is very close to what the Europeans have been using for a long time. Years ago I got some Swiss Army ball ammo (not commercial) that was 124 grains and would have been considered +P by American standards; it was just regular target ammo as far as the Swiss were concerned. By the way, it was very accurate. If we switch to a HP bullet, the same 115-125 grain bullet pushed to 1200+ fps has a good track record and staying a little closer to the 125 grain end of that spectrum has merits.

I think it's worth noting that the 125 Grain HP bullet used in many of the 9mm loads is the same bullet used in some of the .357 SIG cartridges and while the .357 SIG can be pushed a little faster, the difference isn't that great when compared to +P 9mm loads.

[oldhenry]

I lived in Eufaula, but spent several dollars at Davis Sporting Goods. I shoot a lot at Shooters, and collect a lot of once fired brass from there. I've been told about Butler, but as of yet haven't made the pilgrimage there....

I've been told that he is one of the largest Browning dealer in the US. My 2 sons are shotgun shooters & back when I had a FFL they would go to Barrows to buy a new Browning shotgun for 2 reasons:
1. His prices were better than what I could get them for.
2. He has a tremendous stock & his counter men would take as many trips back to the stock room (warehouse) as it took to get a few more until "the one" with the wood that appealed to the buyer was found.

He is a distributor for Benelli (sp?) & most importantly.....he's a nice guy.

BTW: Shooters is getting out of reloading & have primers 25% off. They have plenty of Federal pistol primers & CCI rifle primers.........I just bought 25,000.

Henry

[P Flados]

Rick R & RJM52,
Your post + the collective info from others convinces me that my original thought on the 124gr. to be the way to go.
A friend has a 6 cav. Lee 120TC that he has offered to loan me......it'll allow me to find out if my Ruger likes the TC shape. If so I think I'll go with the Arsenal 124TC (unless the 120TC Lee wins me over).

I slugged the bbl. today & was somewhat surprised: The 3 measurements (with a micrometer)were .35540, .35540 & .35550. I had been under the impression that most of the Ruger 9s were .357. Maybe Lathesmith can come up with a .35650 or a tight .357.

I also weighed the trigger pull: it'd hold a 4.5, but not a 4.75. I disassembled & very very lightly polished the trigger stirrup (no engagement surfaces) with 1500 (worn out) paper. I also did the same to the paddle surface of the disconnector. This improved the smoothness somewhat & will now hold 4.25 but not 4.5. A slight creep remains (better than before) & I suspect the channel in the frame for the trigger stirrup. I'll just shoot it a while to see if it improves or at least develop some rub evidence.

Henry

My 6 cav Lee 120 is one of my newest molds.

It drops 0.356 or so and was actually too small for the intended gun (Glock) even with ASBB HF Red PC.

I eventually found a way to make them work with some effort. My biggest problems were that I needed an extra 0.001" on the boolit and the sizer die and expander were too small.

With the thickness / hardness of the 9 mm case, it just seems to size boolits down more so than most. With the high pressure, if you don't heed the old "fit is king" you are very likely to get leading. Your gun may not be happy unless the "as fired" boolit leaving the case is at least 0.001" over the bore. In the 9 mm, you find many more "boolits drop too small" complaints than you will complaints about boolits needing "too much sizing down".

With your barrel, I am confident a current run Lee 120 TC will not be "too big".

For boolits shooting, I also recommend being picky with your brass. I have much better results sticking to Blazer, Speer and Federal brass. With a mix of these three headstamps I have eliminated both the priming problems I was having and I am getting much more uniform resistance when seating boolits.

[oldhenry]

P Flados,
I really appreciate your information. My friend says his Lee 120TC boolits from COWWs size to .357 & the sizing is uniform (all sides), so from your info I deduct that the boolit size from the Lee 120TC could vary. Considering this variable I think I'll be better off with the Arsenal 124TC. With Arsenal I can stipulate the size & rule out the "luck" factor.

Your experience with mixed head stamps is valuable info.

Thanks,
Henry

[P Flados]

P Flados,
I really appreciate your information. My friend says his Lee 120TC boolits from COWWs size to .357 & the sizing is uniform (all sides), so from your info I deduct that the boolit size from the Lee 120TC could vary. Considering this variable I think I'll be better off with the Arsenal 124TC. With Arsenal I can stipulate the size & rule out the "luck" factor.

Your experience with mixed head stamps is valuable info.

Thanks,
Henry

There is still a pretty big "luck factor" in figuring out what make your gun happy. Some ae happy at 0.0005" over, some want 0.002" over.

For some folks, a 9 is no more difficult than anything else, however for many (like me) it can be a real challenge.

If you can borrow a mold ot two, it really helps to find at least one "good boolit / load combination" before you spend too much on a mold.

What are you planning for as far as lube and lead hardness?

Many find that their 9s favor at least a medium hard lead (say 14 - 18 bhn).

My only volume lead source is in the 7.5 - 9.5 bhn range. I got it to work, but it took PC plus a lot of trial and error before I found was seems to be the "perfect" diameter for both my boolit and my expander plug.

[oldhenry]

P Flados,

I jumped the gun & ordered the Arsenal 358-124-TC yesterday (I couldn't believe the $80.00 price for a 5 cav.: a good value). I told them I want the boolits to drop @ .358 with COWW. I also ordered a Star die from Lathesmith & stipulated a "tight" .357.

I'm primarily a revolver shooter & although I've been casting since '60, I've learned from this forum & have been casting 50%+50%+2 Sn for the last 6 months. A .45ACP SR1911 is my only other CF autoloader & I've been using that same alloy with it & have had good results so far. For the 9 I been thinking about using the alloy that I mined from my backstop. I shot 99% of them my self with COWW. I was thinking about adding some Sn. Not being familiar with the 9 I figure the harder alloy would be better due to the relatively higher speed.

I've been using BAC lube for everything for the past 8-10 years & have been satisfied. I thought I'd try it on the 9 & change only if there is a problem.

An excellent feature of the Ruger officer model is the throated chamber (from the factory). I had to send my 5" SR1911 to DougGuy to get it throated. So far the bbl. is a dream to clean (no cast boolits yet). I'm hoping the throated chamber will make it more forgiving.

Again: thanks for your input.

Henry

[P Flados]

A factory 9mm with a throat in the barrel.

You are way ahead on that issue.

Your diameters all sound about right and your lead sounds hard enough.

Odds are in your favor at this point.

Keep us posted on how it works out.

[oldhenry]

A factory 9mm with a throat in the barrel.

You are way ahead on that issue.

Your diameters all sound about right and your lead sounds hard enough.

Odds are in your favor at this point.

Keep us posted on how it works out.

Will do.

Thanks for your help.

Henry

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I was recently in your situation - although I've had a little more experience with the 9mm because my brother had one for years (a Ruger P-95), and more recently, my son got one. I guess I didn't scoff at the 9. I think it depends on what you compare it too.

Standing aside a .357, .40, or .45 the 9 can be unimpressive. But I've always thought of it as a slightly beefier .380 ACP which makes the 9 look pretty decent. Except that, for whatever reason the .380 had more offerings in the sub-compact arena.

So enter some newer guns that put the 9mm up against the .380: Ruger's LC9, Sig's 938, S&W Shield, and finally . . . Kimber Micro 9. I fell in love with the Kimber and got it. It is great for EDC. And I find it very shootable, although I do get fatigue after 100 rounds but that's me.

Some things that made the 9mm the right choice for me:

I already reloaded it for my brother and son.
I didn't want .380 brass getting confused with 9mm brass in the tumbler.
9mm beats the .380 ballistically
9mm beats just about everything except .22lr for cheap/available ammo.
Finding 9mm brass at the ranges is like picking dandelions from the lawn.
9mm comes in some very small guns, not quite as small as .380s but getting close.
9mm has earned a favorable reputation for SD.

One final note: I have reached the conclusion that to seek or rely on a pistol (or any other gun) for a 1-shot stop is flat-out foolish. The problem with our obsession with stopping power is that it comes at the expense of other things that come into play in a self-defense situation. Yes indeed "use enough gun", but there are other factors that should not be neglected.

[9.3X62AL]

Well-stated, Black Jack.

One of the larger surprises we got as range instructors was the relative absence of problems that our deputies had in managing the recoil of the 45 ACP. By the end of our 2-day schools we ran to acquaint the guys and gals with their new war toys, just about everyone was able to score well with their 45s. This ran counter to The Prevailing Wisdom of gunrag writers and other fraud perps. Same story with the 9mm--and both loads in use at the time (Silvertips) were kinda strident. A few folks have had trouble with managing the 40 S&W, though. The 40 S&W (subjectively, at least) has the sharpest recoil and report of the 3 main pistol calibers my shop authorizes, and between that management issue and the higher cost of 40 S&W training ammo and war shots--the 9mm starts looking really good to the pencil-pushers and bean-counters. I am not trying to "**** with faint praise" the 9 x 19 Luger cartridge, but a shooter must be selective about the ammunition used in his or her 9mm in order to get--literally and figuratively--the best bang for the buck. I like the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot +P, which combines a modern controlled-expansion bullet with full-potential velocity levels. Any handgun carried for defensive purposes is already a pretty adulterated compromise between projectable power and portability--so carry good, capable ammo.

[oldhenry]

Everything started coming together. The Star size die from Lathesmith arrive the middle of the week & the Arsenal 358-125-TC was in the mail box Friday.

I got up early Saturday while it was as cool as it will be & cast over 500 boolits & sized 200 of them that evening. The Arsenal mold is a beauty, but the boolits as dropped measure .35950 instead of the .358 I wanted. Picking 3 @ random weighed 121.2 gr. each. The good news is the size die from Lathesmith sizes them down to .35650: perfect for the .35540-.35550 bore.

The #1 photo attached tells the story.

Taking the advice from P Flados my test brass is Federal.

I'm starting out with the load suggested by LUCKYDAWG13: 3.8 of red dot. My old Lyman pistol & Revolver book shows this as the suggested starting load.

The #2 photo shows 3.8 of R.D. in the case (I don't see how there would be enough room in the case to add more). Question: are compressed loads normal in the 9?

It'll take me a while to become accustomed to handling these small components.....I've considered tweezers to handle the boolits in & out of the Star.

I'll be sure to equip myself with my shooting glasses + gloves before touching that first one off tomorrow morning.

Henry

[robertbank]

oldHenry I posted earlier, and feel compelled to apologize for not stating that I have had more luck sizing my cast bullets .357 than .356. Without exception the .357 bullet out performed accuracy wise the .356 bullet in my testing off a bench. With my M&P FS and CZ85 Combat .356 bullets would often tumble within 7 yards. You would see the bullets profile in the tan IDPA targets we were using. The issue went away once I sized my bullets .357. I use water quenched wheel weight alloy for my cast bullets. If you run into this problem or your accuracy is not what you think it should be try sizing your bullets .357 you may find that corrects the issue. You likely won't if your sizing die sizes your bullets .3565. Just a heads up.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

Unless the powder is particularly dense(AA7,Titegroup), you will find that most 9mm charges pretty much fill the case to the bottom of the boolit. Slightly compressed charges are not at all unusual for this cartridge.
The 9mm case is small enough it doesn't take much to fill it. This why OAL is so important here. Small differences in OAL make sometimes large differences in pressure in the cartridge.
When I am starting with a new boolit/powder combination, I always load the boolit to the longest OAL I can get to function and use starting charge weights listed in manuals. This is the safest course.
Once you establish safety and functionality, you can increase the powder charge or change the OAL to see if your accuracy improves. If you are trying for a particular power factor, you may need to adjust things to get where you need to be.
If you have access to a chronograph, use it during load development to help keep track of the performance your loads give you. If something starts going wrong, it will normally show up in a velocity change even before it shows pressure signs on the fired case/primer.
Sometimes with high pressure cartridges(9mm is one), pressure signs are unreliable. Significant or unexpected changes in velocity will often give you a warning before anything will show up on the brass or primer.
It looks like you are off to a good start and I wish you the best luck.

[oldhenry]

After the additional info from robertbank & tazman, I prepared enough for 3 magazines with 3 different OALs.

The #1 photo tells the tale.
#1 on left OAL is 1.30
#2 in center is 1.45
#3 on the right is 1.75

The #1 had 2 FTFs & the nose looked like it was having trouble skidding up the feed ramp. Also 1 that fed from the magazine was a misfire:but, re-cocking the hammer & trying again (without moving the slide) allowed it to fire.

The #2 magazine had approximately the same result as #1.

The #3 magazine fired all rounds without a hitch.

All firing was done offhand from 16 yds. & accuracy was good.......all on kill zone of my metal humanoid silhouette target. I even tried some IHMSA chickens @ the same range & they went down quickly.

PROBLEM: The primers with all loads are flowing (see photo #2). My theory is that the long bearing surface of this boolit in conjunction with a fast burning powder is the culprit.

A: I'll try some test loads with 1.75 OAL with HP38 (slower on the burn rate scale) @ start load point.
B: Same OAL with CFE Pistol.

A contradiction to the above conditions was a failure for the slide to remain back after the last shot (only with #1 & #2 OALs.

All input is appreciated.

Henry

[oldhenry]

Sorry about that

[robertbank]

The Lyman 4th Edition lists loads for a 120 gr RN with a starting load of 3 gr of Red Dot and a maximum of 3.9 grains which puts you close to the top of range for that powder with little wiggle room. The powder is not listed for use in any of the other 124/125 gr bullets. I don't have a 9MM gun that would run effectively using a 1.75" OAL. I am surprised you have not found them jamming up your pistol. Over time my OAL for my Lyman 356402 TC bullet has settled in at 1.1" in order to function reliably in all my 9MM pistols.

Personally I think you would be better served by using a slower powder such as 231. At 1.1" to 1.11 you won't be compressing the powder. As an aside most manuals do not recommend compressing ball powders. 4.1 gr of 231 is not a compressed load.

You should note of the four bullets listed in the 4th Edition that range from 120 gr bullets to 125 gr bullets 1.11" is the longest OAL noted with the shortest being 1.01" for a Lyman HP.

I have a Excel Spreadsheet with 185 tested 9MM 10 shot loads over a F1 Chrony. You might find some of the loads of interest. All are within manual specs other than 2 Wildcat 45-08 loads. There are 600 tested loads listed; 185 are for the 9MM. PM me your email address if you want it.

Take Care

Bob
ps You might be seeng pressure signs due to the bullets being pushed into the rifling when they seat before firing. You are also close to max. using Red Dot according to the recent Lyman reference so any variance in your charge could put you over. Did you individually weigh each charge or just set a powder measure? Just my guess.

pps How ling is the bullet you are casting? The Lyman TC bullet I am using casts out at .621" and my cartridge OAL is as stated above 1.1".

[oldhenry]

The Lyman 4th Edition lists loads for a 120 gr RN with a starting load of 3 gr of Red Dot and a maximum of 3.9 grains which puts you close to the top of range for that powder with little wiggle room. The powder is not listed for use in any of the other 124/125 gr bullets. I don't have a 9MM gun that would run effectively using a 1.75" OAL. I am surprised you have not found them jamming up your pistol. Over time my OAL for my Lyman 356402 TC bullet has settled in at 1.1" in order to function reliably in all my 9MM pistols.

Personally I think you would be better served by using a slower powder such as 231. At 1.1" to 1.11 you won't be compressing the powder. As an aside most manuals do not recommend compressing ball powders. 4.1 gr of 231 is not a compressed load.

You should note of the four bullets listed in the 4th Edition that range from 120 gr bullets to 125 gr bullets 1.11" is the longest OAL noted with the shortest being 1.01" for a Lyman HP.

I have a Excel Spreadsheet with 185 tested 9MM 10 shot loads over a F1 Chrony. You might find some of the loads of interest. All are within manual specs other than 2 Wildcat 45-08 loads. There are 600 tested loads listed; 185 are for the 9MM. PM me your email address if you want it.

Take Care

Bob
ps You might be seeng pressure signs due to the bullets being pushed into the rifling when they seat before firing. You are also close to max. using Red Dot according to the recent Lyman reference so any variance in your charge could put you over. Did you individually weigh each charge or just set a powder measure? Just my guess.

pps How ling is the bullet you are casting? The Lyman TC bullet I am using casts out at .621" and my cartridge OAL is as stated above 1.1".

Bob,

My OALs in my last post are missing a zero. The correct AOLs are:

#1 =1.030
#2 =1.045
#3 =1.075

I corrected my earlier posting.

My Lyman "Pistol & Revolver Handbook" is the 8th. printing (2/92). The corrected information from you is welcomed & explains a few things.

I have the new (2018) Hogdon reloading manual (looks like a magazine) & it gives the starting load using HP38 @3.9 & max. @ 4.4 for a 125gr. LCN. I'll try 3.9.

The length of the Arsenal 358-124-TC is .569.

I think I'll start out @ an OAL of 1.075 & go up from that in increments.

I think the Ruger will appreciate the charge/powder change.

Regards & thanks,

Henry

[tazman]

I have an older(2001)Alliant manual that lists Red Dot loads for 9mm 125 grain lead. No designation of nose shape was listed.
The OAL is listed as 1.150. The max powder charge is listed as 4.5 grains.
It claims a velocity of 1145 fps from a 4 inch barrel.

Castpics web site has many older manuals for free download. That is where I got this one.

[robertbank]

oldhenry 3.9 gr is pretty lighter than you need go. Lyman's 4th lists the min 2.9gr to 4.4gr of 231/HP38. Your vel. will be running about 1,100 fps on average. Your bullet is shorter than the Lyman would load shorter to get the same vel and pressures. The TC bullet you are using is extremely accurate. You will do well with it.

Thanks for clarifying the OAL I figured something had to be wrong with your numbers.

Take Care

Bob

[P Flados]

The 3.8 Red Dot load does not sound hot at all to me.

We have burned a lot of loads with 3.9 of Promo (cheaper / big jug only version of Red Dot) under 120s and 125s. These loads were all at the "just enough to get reliable slide hold back after the last round" level for my boy's Glock 17. This was my first load where I achieved no leading accumulation. This is now our standard "target load" and I would recommend Red Dot at this same critera (just enough for reliable slide hold back) for anyone that wants a low cost / high volume target load.

The cases are close to full as this powder is at the low end of the scale for density and the 9mm was designed to be loaded "case full". I really like the look of your #3 load better than the other two. With the boolits seated less deep, your Red Dot loads have a little more breathing room.

For hotter loads, I have used Unique and TiteGroup. Last Friday, we just finished off a run of probably 200 - 300 consecutive rounds of 4.4 gr Titegroup (book max) under 120 Lee TCs with no leading accumulation in his factory barrel.

With good target and book max loads, I am now sufficently satisfied such that I have no plans for any more load developmnet for this gun.

[oldhenry]

Photo #1 is a top view of the Officer model magazine. Note the adapter @ the inner rear wall that I assume serves to reduce the inside length. Also note grooves on both sides that I assume are to reduce the width to accommodate the 9mm.

I notice that 5 rounds are easy to load, but the 6th & 7th are almost impossible to load. It seems like the follower makes contact with something inside the magazine that will not allow the follower to go any further(more than just spring pressure). Increased pressure will finally overcome the obstacle, but the final 2 rounds are difficult (almost impossible) to make contact with the rear adapter. My #3 AOL & the #4AOL & #5OAL in photo #2 feed OK if 5 rounds are loaded. When 7 are loaded a FTF usually occurs on the 2nd. shot.

When I remove the magazine to clear it, the top round is 1/3rd forward exiting the magazine lips. Re-installing that round into the magazine fires OK & the rest of the magazine usually feeds OK.

From this I think the FTF is a magazine problem as well as an OAL issue.

Photo #2: AOL on the left (#4) is 1.090 & #5 on the right is 1.10. I loaded 5 of the #4 AOL with 4.0 gr. HP38 & they fired w/o a hitch. I loaded both magazines (7) with OAL #5 & chambered a round separately. I attempted to fire this 15 & ran into the problem usually after the 1st. or 2nd. shot.

HISTORY: Prior to the reloads I'd fired 65 Fiocchi 124gr. FMJ without a problem.

Following the test of the #4&#5 OAL I fired 15 Fiocchi loads & the problem occurred after the 2nd. round. Photo #3 shows 3 empties from those 15 rounds. The one on the left looks normal. The center one shows primer hit beginning to flow. The one on the right is one that failed to feed, but fired after re-chambering: it is no where near normal.

I plan to call Ruger tomorrow to see if they're having magazine issues with the Officer Model. I don't see any way to disassemble.

P Flados,
After seeing this primer from a factory load, I've changed my mind about the Red Dot load. I was blaming the primer appearance on Red Dot.

The plot thickens.

Henry

[robertbank]

oldhenry I think you are really over thinking this. Of the three cases you show, the first two look completely normal. Every gun or model has their own way of marking the primer base. The third shows pressure signs. How did it sound or feel when you shot it? The 9MM is not all that hard to load for. Stick to within manual specs for the bullet you are using and go shoot. Most 9MM guns are designed for self defense, LEO or Military use. Some are capable of remarkable accuracy in the right hands most do the job they were designed for. You got a good gun and it should serve you well.

Take Care

Bob

[charlie b]

I agree that I don't think you have a situation with the ammo.

Notice that the middle round also has a bit of 'scraping' of the crater (on right side). To me this looks like you have a very 'tight' extractor. It is holding the case tight against the breech face. During cycling there is some movement that scrapes the 'crater'. Since the gun is new the edges of the firing pin hole are probably very sharp. Any movement of the case would cause what you see. There is upward pressure from the rounds in the magazine during the recoil cycle. As the number of the rounds in the mag changes, so does that pressure.

If you check from the next mag load, is the scraping the same from magazine to magazine, ie, does the #2 round always show it? If so, then the movement of the case against the breech is different during the extraction and is unrelated to the load.

Do you have different magazines to use? FYI, the Officer's model of the 1911 has always been a bit picky, especially in the .45 version and magazines are a big part of a well functioning pistol.

PS the magazines look like they disassemble the same as the gov't model. Push down on follower and use pin to hold spring down. 'Wiggle' out the follower, then release spring (carefully :) ).

[oldhenry]

Robertbank,
No difference in recoil or sound. Charlie b's explanation makes sense.

Charlie b,
Thanks for the explanation of the primer appearance + the magazine info.

Henry

[robertbank]

Robertbank,
No difference in recoil or sound. Charlie b's explanation makes sense.

Charlie b,
Thanks for the explanation of the primer appearance + the magazine info.

Henry

I am betting a high primer than where the force of the firing pin fully seats the primer. More often the cartridge fails to fire. In your case it still did. The indentation is not very deep. Again I think you would be well advised to spend a lot more time learning how to shoot the pistol then worrying about the looks of your case after they fire. Charlie is right oin how to remove the mag spring. Removing one coil ought to solve the difficulty in loading them if the followers are contacting the springs to early as you load the magazine.

Take Care

Bob

[P Flados]

I agree that the primer appearance is probably something going on with non-uniform feeding resulting in the gun firing with the slide not fully forward.

I was having similar problems when I was first trying to get an aftermarket barrel to work. The aftermarket barrel had one of those typical "throatless wonder" chambers that just did not like my boolits.

In addition to the concerns you originally noted, I spotted an additional "indicator". Here is what I found on the Glock with the aftermarket barrel before I fixed the throat. There is a good chance that the same sequence is true on your gun. When the slide goes full forward, it lifts the rear of the barrel up. If it does not go full forward, the barrel may not be in the "full up position". When this happens, the firing pin will hit "off center". The farther "out of battery" the slide, the more off center the primer strike. If the slide is too far back and the extractor does not grab it good enough you can also get a FTF with a very light strike mark on the primer.

For quite a while I was watching primers and I got pretty good at noting when the gun was not reliably getting the slide fully forward "into battery". The slide not getting full forward can be caused by a bunch of stuff (including ammo issues). Figuring out that this situation exist and understanding what it means is the first step to figuring out the cause or causes.

[oldhenry]

I am betting a high primer than where the force of the firing pin fully seats the primer. More often the cartridge fails to fire. In your case it still did. The indentation is not very deep. Again I think you would be well advised to spend a lot more time learning how to shoot the pistol then worrying about the looks of your case after they fire. Charlie is right oin how to remove the mag spring. Removing one coil ought to solve the difficulty in loading them if the followers are contacting the springs to early as you load the magazine.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,
In my case a high primer is not the problem. In fact I had to regroup & take extra care in seating them.....I was applying too much pressure & feared some were too low (the WSPs have a different feel from the Fed. #150s that I've been seating in my .45ACP & .44 Spec.). As you will recall I was getting some misfires sometimes....usually on the 2nd. shot from a 7 round magazine.

I know that everyone loves Winchester primers, but I've had bad experience with them lately.

BTW I phoned Ruger today to find out if they were having any magazine problems with the Officer's mdl..
The nice young lady was not aware of any problems, but said she'd send me 2 new magazines. I told her I was going to attempt to repair mine, but she insisted & is sending them. She'll even make sure that the ones she sends will load 7 rounds properly. This is the reason I buy Rugers.

Todays response from P Flados hits the nail on the head. I also think the misfires are a result of the bbl. not being fully in battery. I think the magazine is the culprit allowing the long round under the one being fed to slow the forward movement of the slide. The light firing pin hits on the misfired case is not centered & they are not round.......they're more like a short shallow line.

I could be wrong.........I often am. The replacement magazines will prove it one way or another.

Please understand, your interest & help is very much appreciated.

Regards,
Henry

[oldhenry]

I agree that the primer appearance is probably something going on with non-uniform feeding resulting in the gun firing with the slide not fully forward.

I was having similar problems when I was first trying to get an aftermarket barrel to work. The aftermarket barrel had one of those typical "throatless wonder" chambers that just did not like my boolits.

In addition to the concerns you originally noted, I spotted an additional "indicator". Here is what I found on the Glock with the aftermarket barrel before I fixed the throat. There is a good chance that the same sequence is true on your gun. When the slide goes full forward, it lifts the rear of the barrel up. If it does not go full forward, the barrel may not be in the "full up position". When this happens, the firing pin will hit "off center". The farther "out of battery" the slide, the more off center the primer strike. If the slide is too far back and the extractor does not grab it good enough you can also get a FTF with a very light strike mark on the primer.

For quite a while I was watching primers and I got pretty good at noting when the gun was not reliably getting the slide fully forward "into battery". The slide not getting full forward can be caused by a bunch of stuff (including ammo issues). Figuring out that this situation exist and understanding what it means is the first step to figuring out the cause or causes.

I think you are 100% correct & I think the magazine is the root of the problem. Today I loaded only 5 instead of 7 & shot 25 rounds without a hitch...........I cheated & used Fed.#100 primers.

Regards,
Henry

[robertbank]

Empty your gun and with a mag in or out of the gun hold the slide back slightly. Cock the gun manually and pull the trigger. I have several 1911's and none will drop the hammer if the slide is out of battery. Too, if the gun was firing out of battery you would have more issues then a flat primer.

I don't get the connection between the gun firing out of battery and the magazine. What am I missing?

Good Luck

Take Care

Bob

[oldhenry]

Empty your gun and with a mag in or out of the gun hold the slide back slightly. Cock the gun manually and pull the trigger. I have several 1911's and none will drop the hammer if the slide is out of battery. Too, if the gun was firing out of battery you would have more issues then a flat primer.

I don't get the connection between the gun firing out of battery and the magazine. What am I missing?

Good Luck

Take Care

Bob

Bob,
Thanks for your reply & I appreciate you sharing your 1911 expertise. Please forgive me not answering sooner.....yard work interfered.

I should apologize for the phrase "out of battery". "Not fully in battery" would have been more accurate as what I was trying to say, but as it turns out both would be wrong.

I tried your test & the results depends on the word "slightly" (I don't mean to sound like Bill Clinton). To explain, check out the attached photos.

Photo #1: (out of sequence...it is showing as the last one)The guide rod with the slide fully closed.
Photo #2: (out of sequence.. it is the 1st. one)The guide rod with the slide slightly retracted.
Photo #3: (out of sequence.... it's the 2nd. one)The rear of the slide slightly retracted (same retraction as #2).

The hammer fell with this amount of retraction. To be fair: with this amount of retraction, there was no perceptible downward movement of the rear end of the bbl.. Any more rearward movement of the slide rendered the gun unable to fire.

Relationship (suspected relationship) between the magazine & problem:

Background: rounds #1-5 loaded normally. Rounds #6 &#7 difficult to load & unable to push them back against rear wall of mag. Round #8 single loaded into chamber & slide fully closed.
#8 fires.
#7 fails to fire. Cock hammer & #7 fires. If I chose not to cock & attempt to fire again, the magazine would look like photo#4 & #5 (round #6 out of place).

I deduct that round #6 slowed the forward movement of the slide & it may not be in the full forward position.

Photo #4: (out of sequence & is 3rd.)magazine with 7 rounds. Note rear of cartridge not against rear of magazine.
Photo #5: (out of sequence & is showing as 4th.)Round #6 forward from magazine
Photo #6: Side view of #5(out of sequence & is showing as 5th)

Preparing to make the photo of the slightly retracted slide, I pressed the front side edge of the slide against the window frame of my reloading room & slowly increased pressure to retract the slide slightly. When retracted in same amount showing in the photo the hammer fell with enough force to close the slide & put a dent into the window frame. That hammer has mucho force.

I tried 2 other times to write this & when finished, it would not upload. This may explain why the photos are out of sequence. The out of sequence photos are confusing, but this is the best I can do.

Regards,
Henry

P.S. I'll try to relist photos in proper sequence. My service is wireless & we've been having bad weather here.

[oldhenry]

Photos:
#1: Close up of guide with slide fully forward.
#2: Close up of guide retracted slightly to rear.
#3: Close up of slide rear edge retracted same as above.

Note gun will fire with this retraction, but will not with any more.

#4: Magazine loaded. 6Th. & 7th. round not fully positioned to rear.
#5: Round #6 forward in magazine lips after round #8 & #7 fired.
#6: Side view of #5.

[fivefang]

petrol & Powder, when it comes to shooting, HOT 9x19 I use the pistol that was designed for a hotter Ctg., the 213 Norinco is that Pistol for me, nothing else can take what that pistol digests, from a rest in my younger days I spun metal targets at 100 yd. @ Markham Park range Ft.Laud. fl.,Ya ever put a basket case Hon. S-90 together?, Fivefamg

[robertbank]

Henry the cartridge you cannot load in the mag is simply to long. If you are finding rounds won't chamber correctly. as in the slide won't fully close it may be simply a case of the cartridge coming up against the rifling.

You should not be having this much of a problems. Loading the 9MM is not difficult and the bullet design you are using is certainly one of the most reliable to feed. Get your dial caliper and set it at 1.1". Using the 125 gr. truncated bullet if the cartridge passes through it there is no earthly reason for it to not function reliably in any 9MM pistol.

Just a few things to watch for. When seating the bullet make sure yo have just enough belling to allow the bullet to seat into the case. Ensure the bullet is vertical to the case mouth. Every once in awhile I get sloppy and I end up bulging one side of the case. The result is the cartridge will not chamber. Always complete the stroke of the press. Short striking will result in varying seating depths. Make sure you are using a seating die with the right shape of seating plunger. One meant for RN bullets will give you varying OAL when you use a flat faced bullet.

That aside, stay within the parameters of a good loading manual. The 9MM, I have found performs well with lead bullets when using powders with burn rates similar to Unique and Win 231. I have a bunch of 700X I purchased during the powder shortage and it works but is smokey. I use Titegroup for my plated and jacketed rounds for competition.

Good Luck and remember don;t over think it. BTW when practicing I would not go beyond 15 yards if you are shooting double taps or practicing repaid shooting. The 9MM cartridge is a good defensive round and extremely popular among action shooting folks.

Bob

[oldhenry]

petrol & Powder, when it comes to shooting, HOT 9x19 I use the pistol that was designed for a hotter Ctg., the 213 Norinco is that Pistol for me, nothing else can take what that pistol digests, from a rest in my younger days I spun metal targets at 100 yd. @ Markham Park range Ft.Laud. fl.,Ya ever put a basket case Hon. S-90 together?, Fivefamg

No experience with a Honda S-90.......except I've always wanted one.

I'm trying a 10 step program to curb my motorcycle building habit. A fellow 6 miles South of here has a Honda Super Hawk...('69 model I think) that he wants me to restore. I'll be 79 in a month or so & find shooting is as much fun & not as expensive.

[Texas by God]

Robertbank nailed it, seat it a little deeper.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[oldhenry]

Robertbank nailed it, seat it a little deeper.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

That photo is misleading (the angle taken).
The OAL is 1.090. I've never tried anything longer then 1.1.

I know everyone is trying to help & I certainly appreciate everything.

The bullet is not against the rifling. The factory bbl. is throated & all loads passed the "plunk" test (I specifically removed the bbl. to make that test with every increase in OAL).

The bell is correct (I loaded my 1st. pistol cartridge in '60....38-40 & if you don't get the bell right on that one, you'll know it real quick)

Even though I load on a 550, I'm no speed demon & try to get a good boolit alignment every time (no bulged cases). Likewise no short stroking.

The seating stem surface is not perfect, but OAL varies no more than .002 .....if at all. I plan to customize the RN end of the Dillon seating insert.

I've settled on 4.0 of HP-38 for the last 250 that I loaded.

The disassembly of the magazine did not go as I hoped. The process outlined would work fine with the normal follower, but these magazines are made by Check Mate for Ruger & have a skirted (AKA "bull nose") follower. On a magazine with removable base, they would be a snap to remove.............the base on these is not removable. I'm in the process of contacting Check Mate to learn the secret & when I do I'll share the info. If any forum member knows the secret, I'd really appreciate the info.

One side effect of my attempt @ disassembly: apparently repeatedly depressing the follower/spring rubbed against the source of the problem & I can now load 7 in that mag. with no problem. I haven't had a chance to test it, but will do so soon.

Many thanks to everyone........I hope I didn't sound like a smart ***(donkey?).

Henry

[oldhenry]

The 2 original magazines have improved just through use. One is fully recovered. While awaiting the new mags from Ruger I loaded 100 with CCI primers & was careful to stay within the brass parameters voiced by P Flados. Of these I shot 6 strings (8 shot) from each magazine & had only one misfire (I foolishly re-cocked & fired it on the 2nd. attempt rather than removing it for inspection.

Later that day I phoned Check Mate about the correct disassembly method for their mags.
The fellow I spoke with was very nice. He didn't recommend disassembly due to possible spring injury, but told be how anyway.

The 2 photos attached tell the tale.
#1 is the follower removed: note the front skirt.
#2 shows these parts being squeezed together with my needle nose pliers. I would have never attempted this on my own, but he assured me that no harm would be done to the follower. The entire follower seems to be made of a variety of spring steel.

Removal with these parts squeezed together allowed just enough clearance for re-installing........not easy, but doable (I was successful after 7-8 attempts).

With the spring removed I couldn't find anything that would hamper proper function. In fact, the workmanship is top drawer. I did slightly smooth some contact points with 1500 (used) paper. After re-assembly I didn't note any difference. I filled it with loaded rounds overnight & the next morning it was much improved.

The 2 Ruger mags arrived yesterday & I called Ruger & paid them for the replacements....I now have 4.

Today with the 4 mags shooting identical loads: CCI primers, 4.0 HP38 BUT mixed brass. The mixed brass made all the difference. The Speer, FC, SIG, Perfecta, & Xtreme gave no problems, but the other stuff (mixed) produced many misfires......P Flados is correct.

Lesson:
#1: Use good brass
#2: It ain't the magazine

Dillon advertises a EGW chamber checker & I think I'll get one.

Henry

[P Flados]

Lesson:
#1: Use good brass

Henry

Now you have seen for yourself the difference it can make.

Reloading 9s has a reputation for being more tricky than most. Doing it with boolits makes it even worse. Starting out with "good brass" (just a few headstamps recommended as least troublesome by others) is just easier and eliminates a lot of potential confusion and/or frustration.

I think it is possible to use mixed brass ok, but it probably requires either a lots of skill & just the right equipment, or good luck that what you have just works.

Even if you can not get "mixed brass" to work, sorting brass into sizable batches is something that can be tried if you want. I will bet that most range pickup brass can be made to work. It would just require slight technique adjustments and/or different equipment (expander plug & primer tool are the most likely area of concern).

However to figure out what works for a specific brand would probably require more effort than many of us want to spend. For me it is just easier to be selective when I am picking up brass at the range. In the last year I have built up a reasable stockpile of the headstamps that work for me, about 1.5 gallons.

[Chad5005]

just bought 2 9mm to do some testing and plinking with, bought a berretta px4 storm full size and a springfield xdm fullsize,will be reloading and casting for them,have 8k once fired cases but will probably separate head stamps for testing

[dragon813gt]

but will probably separate head stamps for testing
I wouldn’t bother. You’re going to see no difference between brands. Remove any stepped cases as they’re dangerous. But besides that mixed brass is going to shoot the same as separated. I went through that testing a long time ago. Was a waste of time.

[P Flados]

I wouldn’t bother. You’re going to see no difference between brands. Remove any stepped cases as they’re dangerous. But besides that mixed brass is going to shoot the same as separated. I went through that testing a long time ago. Was a waste of time.

With J words, mixed is much less of a concern.

With Boolits, mixed brass works for some, for others it causes problems. I have allready said that some use mixed with good results. They should consider themselves either good (if they did extra effort to make mixed work) or lucky if it just happened. I challenge anyone to dispute the fact that many have reported no problems with sorted brass and real problems with random mixed.

Start with the good stuff (I recommend FC, Speer & Blazer).

After you get the good stuff working the way you want, see if other stuff works the same. If mixed works fine, great. If not, you probably saved yourself a bunch of wasted effort.

This is not hard folks. As far as I can tell, when it comes to aquiring brass either free or cheap, 9mm is the easiest. If you are desparate and can not get enough good 9mm brass, send me a PM and I can probalby get some for you. It is one of those just do it and move on kind of things.

[Walks]

GEEZ, you Guys are having the worst problems.
I've been loading 9mm for 60yrs and never have had the problems you're experiencing. The only problem I've ever had is with some Winchester small pistol primers back in 2003. Bought a sleeve of 5000 at a gun show along with 3 COWBOY SHOOTING Buddy's. We all experienced misfire's regardless of cartridge or gun. All of us had the same lot #. Called Winchester, they wanted the lot # . Offered us NOTHING BUT 10% OFF FACTORY AMMO ONLY USABLE FOR AMMO PURCHASED ACROSS A RETAIL COUNTER. They could care less. Neither Big 5 or Turners would accept the coupons.

I've never bought Winchester ammo or powder or primers since then. Even though they tend to be the cheapest AMERICAN MADE primers available.

As far as reloading 9mm ammo, I started reloading by priming U.S. Commercial 9mm brass with a LYMAN 310 Tong Tool. We reloaded 9mm only for my Uncle's S & W model 39.
The European surplus was so cheap & functioned flawlessly in the Surplus P-08's, P-38's and High Powers. Even a MAUSER 1896 BIG RED 9, for a while.

These days I still load that same LYMAN #356402, cast of LINOTYPE. Weighs 116grs, over a hot charge of BULLSEYE. I have a couple of loads using LYMAN 125gr RN & SAECO 122gr RN too.

I've a GLOCK 19 with a WOLF bbl and some old WW2 surplus guns. All of my loads work in all pistols, but I do reserve that HOT #356402 for the P-08. That was the original bullet designed for that gun.

I've had P-89's, GLOCK-17's, Beretta 92 & Cougar 8000. And at least half a dozen others. I just haven't experienced any of the problems that you guys have. Of course I size/decap off the PROGRESSIVE, clean primer pockets & prime by hand. Then PROGRESSIVE for expand, powder, bullet & crimp.

And I really don't understand the concept of "chamber checkers". I've always checked my Auto Handgun loads by dropping freshly loaded rounds into the disassembled bbl's of the handguns I intend to shoot them in. Dropping them into the chamber makes a "thunk" noise you just don't get in a chamber checker.

I do something similar with revolver rounds, I drop the rounds into the chambers of a RUGER NEW MODEL Single-Action. I listen for that thunk & spin the cylinder to check for high primers.

I think most feeding/fitting/malfunction problems go straight to loading crappy&cheap foriegn cases and poor reloading practices in using Progressive presses.

Mixing U.S. made brass has never been a problem for me. Although I prefer to keep my brass sorted by Headstamp and returned to the same box.

[dragon813gt]

With J words, mixed is much less of a concern.

With Boolits, mixed brass works for some, for others it causes problems. I have allready said that some use mixed with good results. They should consider themselves either good (if they did extra effort to make mixed work) or lucky if it just happened. I challenge anyone to dispute the fact that many have reported no problems with sorted brass and real problems with random mixed.

This is a cast bullets site. I’ve had no issues w/ mixed brass. Sorting by brand is a waste of time. As I said before I performed the test a long time ago and there was no difference. I don’t know why people have so much trouble w/ 9mm. It’s not hard to load cast bullet loads for it.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I do not sort the brass either and load on a square deal b , dont find problems with the 9mm , bell enough not to shave lead and seat depth depending on style of bullet , have not noticed any problems with any of the brass , but I am not loading it hot , shooting out of a several glocks, browning hi powers , s&w m&p shield , ruger sr9 & 9e and beretta 92fs , but to each their own , do what works for you and your pistols.

[oldhenry]

I'm convinced that different people with different loading techniques will have a different result loading different brands of brass for different pistols. I personally appreciate the fact that members of this forum helped me understand the 9mm.

I'm finding more brass that works just fine in my Ruger: Perfector & Xtreme work like a charm.....primes easily (they seat solidly), bells fine & most importantly, they feed & shoot OK. I have no idea where they are made. PMC & Fiocci also seems to work OK.

I fired 122 rounds yesterday with CCI primers & 4.0 of HP38. Only one FTF & it was one with S&B brass. All shooting was @ 15 yds.. Chest shots on my steel humanoid silhouette were good, but I need more practice for consistent head shots (I'm @ 50% now).

The 9 isn't as easy to load as the .45 ACP. The .45 ACP in my experience will work with any brand brass, all brands of primers providing the use of a RN boolit (#452374 preferred by me). The 9, however, can be conquered with proper care.

Henry

[robertbank]

Henry avoid Amerc brass in your pistols. The brass is junk, plain and simple. I have had no luck with S&B and am not surprised you had a FTF. The brass has either has extremely tight primer pockets or a military crimp. I just find they are not worth the problem loading them. Did you try firing the round again. It may have fired on the 2nd attempt if it was a high primer that caused the failure. Beyond those two I have never found and variance in results using mixed brass vs one brand over my Chronograph and I have chronoed a lot of pistol rounds. I suspect I might if I was into Olympic style shooting but my inabilities would overcome any perceived advantage of sticking to one brand vs just using mixed brass.

Take Care

Bob

[oldhenry]

Bob,
That S&B did fire on the 2nd. attempt, but this time I had enough sense to extract it for examination before that 2nd. attempt.

The primer had a very slight dent (very slight).

I reamed the PP of all but commercial US mfg. brass (with a Lyman tool that I bought in '61) + I swaged the PP lightly with my RCBS tool (circa late '70s). If anything does not feel right, I'd withdraw it from the 550 & examine (the correct angle against a proper light). If everything didn't look right, I'd seat with my RCBS priming tool until it was even with the head of the brass.

There were some other S&B rounds that did feed & ignite.

Thanks for your 9mm expertise.

Henry

[robertbank]

Henry my advice...toss the S&B in your scrap pile and when you get enough brass and spent primers sell the brass to a metal dealer. The brass has a primer crimp of sorts and when you seat a primer it will only go in so far. The light dent from your striker/firing pin results from your striker/firing pin pushing or seating the primer deeper. The cartridge will then usually go off when struck a 2nd time. The more common experience with the primers is they just jam up your gun if the primer sticks out to far. Pain in the butt really. 9MM brass should be pretty common in your part of the world. I must have 25K cases laying around here. Every trip to the range results in more accumulation. I just can't pass on a case laying on the ground. The ultimate brass rat I guess.

Take Care

Bob

[glockfan]

i don't touch S&B for 3 reasons.

1-the case is a mix of nickel and brass,not friendly to my 650
2- they are loaded hot,which is fine by me,but they're loaded with quite some discrepancy regarding the powder load.
3-the primers are kind of crimped, then seating federal small pistol is a hit or miss, most of the times primers can't be seated far enough in the primer pocket.

enough for me to avoid'em.

[winelover]

Separating 9 mm headstamps does make a difference, might not be able to tell in a pistol but you will notice the difference in POI if your shooting a carbine. For instance, I have tested FC brass with and without a cannulure. Exact same load will not print to the same area of the target.......as much as a couple of inches at 60 yards.

Winelover

[walnut1704]

Reading this thread and I come away with the feeling the 9mm is highly variable. My own experience is.

I'm really a revolver guy, but a couple of years ago it occurred to me that this whole semi-auto thing might catch on. Given it's popularity it seemed the 9mm was a solid choice. Lots of brass around and cheap factory ammo. Academy had a Black Friday special on a Taurus so I bought it.

Eh. Functioned flawlessly but not what I call match grade accuracy. I tried a bunch of powders, bullet weights, bullet diameters and it was O.K. for what it was. But it couldn't seem to do much better than a paper plate at 10 yards off-hand for me. After a few thousand rounds I decided I needed a better gun. Maybe something full-sized.

The next Black Friday gun was a Taurus 92. Another flawless functioning gun, but I just did not care for it much. Grip was kinda chunky. Shot a bit better than the first Taurus, but still couldn't hold a candle to my revolvers. Ran all the variations through it I ran thorough the first one, and then some.

O.K. let's quit fooling around. Maybe it's these economy guns. Bought a Springfield Stainless Loaded Target 1911. Shoots better than the Tauri but after 3,000 rounds I'm still not where I want to be. It holds it's own but I get these wild flyers that screw everything up. Even when I'm very careful and go back to basics with the single stage and hand-craft them in sorted brass.

O.K. maybe it's just me. So I run into a Kimber Gold Match II in .45. Let's see if it's me...nope, Kimber shoots like my revolvers.

So I have had zero functioning problems with bullets from 115gr to 147gr. I even shot some 150 SWC intended for revolvers through the Springfield to use them up. Fed flawlessly. Shot pretty much as well as anything. Which is not great.

So in my experience the 9mm with lead bullets is difficult (I haven't given up on it yet) to find an accurate load for. Of course that depends on your definition of accuracy. Maybe it's not fair expecting the Springfield to be as accurate as my Model 66...or 14...or 657. It seems close with jacketed bullets but I'm having quite a bit of trouble getting lead to shoot.

I have to ask myself, is it worth it?

[robertbank]

Yes but you might want to consider the type of pistol you are comparing your run at accuracy. Try a CZ SP-01 Shadow with a tuned trigger and you will get groups similar to your Springfield if not better. Use the same loads in a Glock with a factory trigger and you are back where you started.

In my opinion most of what you observe or read when it comes to shooting handguns is very subjective. A revolver with a fixed barrel and a decent trigger and sights ought to out shoot most pistols in pure accuracy. Why? Because a good number of pistols are designed to hit man size targets out to 25 yards. I am thinking Glocks, M&P FS, XD, and SIG 226/320 to name bit a few. These guns do well in Action Shooting and in self defense scenarios but are not designed out of the box to be target guns. An earlier poster comments about his experiences using his carbine out to 60 yards. His findings are his and they are valid where I, being an Action pistol shooter would never notice any difference in brass performance when shooting rapid double taps at 10 yards. Out to 25 yards the effect of brass on accuracy would not be near the factor the shooter is when it comes to shooting results. Heck I have problems seeing 2" black center of a target at 25 yards so asking me to place the sight within the 2" circle becomes problematic at best. If I shot a 2" group at that distance with any of my handguns I would be off to the lottery counter for a ticker on the next draw.

For most applications with guys who are out there plinking at tin cans and steel plates spend your time dry firing your pistol and less time worrying about the brass you use...particularly if it is 9MM and you are using a polymer framed gun. So to for self defense applications. You likely won't even use your sights if confronted with a BG seeking to do you harm at close distances. I hardly ever use them within 5 yards shooting IDPA. Darn sure I would not if it was for real.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

^^^^ I find this post to be very true. My revolvers are consistently more accurate for me than any of my semi-auto handguns with the exception of my target grade 1911 pistols.
The target 1911 pistols will shoot with the revolvers no problem.
My other semi-auto pistols(Springfield XD mod2 tactical, Springfield XD-E, Taurus PT92, and Beretta 92FS) with shoot nice groups but they are not the tack drivers the tuned 1911 pistols are.
I have no problems with cast in any of my 9mm handguns. Very, very few fliers and those can be attributed to the operator since the pistols are consistent.
I almost never have failures to feed or fire with my handloads and I shoot mixed brass. I might be able to improve my accuracy if I sorted my brass but it is doubtful since I am not a master class shot.
It has been several months since I last experienced a malfunction in any of my semi auto handguns. I have three that have never had a malfunction with over a thousand rounds fired in each of them.

[robertbank]

Ah Tazman, a man who knows his limitations. It comes with age and experience. I consider myself a good shot but not a great shot. In fact "great" and "Bob" are not often words found together except when she who knows best says "Oh GREAT Bob". There is a comma in there I think somewhere between the GREAT and Bob. LOL This usually comes right after I spill the sugar while refilling the sugar bowl. There are some things men should not have to do.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

I know most of my limitations. I have had them rubbed in my face often enough I should be able to recognize them. I have seen many people who can shoot much better than I can with handguns, rifles, and shotguns. A good portion of them were women.
I really wouldn't call myself a good shot. I think adequate would be a better term.
I used to be a really good archery shot until I got hurt. Not so much any more. Even in archery, there were many who were better than I was.
The reason I know my 1911 pistols are very accurate is I have had people who are great shots shoot them to see how they worked. It was pretty amazing. I wish I could do that with them.

[oldhenry]

Post them here !

I'm attaching a few photos of the completed GB500 project. These were taken with an old Sony Mavica (floppy disc). My wife took some with her Ipad of better quality, but I haven't figured out how to post them.

I hope this is OK with the management.

Henry

[charlie b]

Nice build. My first bike was a CB500-4.

Accuracy of 9mm semiautos is improving. I have not shot a specific group with my HK VP9 but it seems to shoot as well as my tuned 1911 (.45) and the Python. So far any target misses have been due to me, not the pistol. Will have to try a measured group next time I go out. I have also seen some Springfield XDm's that seem to be very accurate. Bullseye target type good? I don't know.

[RED BEAR]

I have always had at least one 9 mm. My absolute favorite is my old single stack single action firestar. A little on the heavy side but shoots like a dream and never had a single jam.