Patched balls in a fast twist barrel?

[Canuck Bob]

Tried a search but came up empty. I'm negotiating on an older .45 Euroarms Investarm Hawken. The twist rate remains a mystery. I'm planning this rifle for range work and maybe some light duty plinking. I don't care about hunting power and higher velocities. I hope the rifle to be 48" twist but there are references to quicker twists available in the thirty range, not verified.

For the sake of discussion how do patched balls perform in the faster twist Lyman rifles and the number of Investarm's branded guns? The goal is powder thrifty 50 yard target combo loads for the whole family and as a loaner range gun for buddies.

Edit: I'm wondering if it is like the Lyman GPR Hunter with a 32 twist and how that would impact patched ball accuracy at 50 to 100 yards.

Here is a link that I found here which is encouraging.

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/round-balls-in-fast-twist-rifles/

[Wayne Smith]

Interesting read. I can't intlligently comment on it, but sounds like it could be fun to try.

[ShooterAZ]

I don't have any experience with 45 cal. round balls, but I have a 54 cal Lyman Deerstalker and it shoots .530 round balls quite well. It is a 1/48 twist. Hope this helps.

[scattershot]

1:48 will work with round balls, don’t know about faster twist.

[jdfoxinc]

All TCs were 1:48 and shot RB fairly well. A 1:30s would be slightly better.

[Canuck Bob]

The load combo would seem a fussier work up but not a waste of time. My Google mojo improved and this topic is well covered after all. Please respond with any real world experiences. For a .45 50-60 gr max loads are quoted a lot and the advice in the link is repeated. The rifle mentioned above might be mine if we can meet on a price.

Edit: I should add that I own a .54 Deerstalker and have no concerns about a 48 twist barrel.

[indian joe]

The load combo would seem a fussier work up but not a waste of time. My Google mojo improved and this topic is well covered after all. Please respond with any real world experiences. For a .45 50-60 gr max loads are quoted a lot and the advice in the link is repeated. The rifle mentioned above might be mine if we can meet on a price.

Bob
I have mostly shot 66 twist ball guns and for a 45 cal I would use a 44/40 shell full of FFF as my low load (45grains) and stop at about 70 grains for top load - as the article says they will pretty much shoot any load -- at the present I am shooting a 48 twist belgian barrel flintlock - its a bit more finickity - top load is a 303 shell full and if I go much over that accuracy disappears fast - have had two of these 48 twist barrels (the other was a 50cal) and they both behaved similarly - i think the secret to shooting ball in a fasttwist would be keeping the charge down .

[Canuck Bob]

The owner got back to me and had trouble measuring the twist but is sure it makes about 1 revolution in the 28" barrel. I'm now considering this rifle a 32" twist Investarm percussion Hawken.

[KCSO]

Ball will work fine as long as you don't over charge. About 30-45 grains of FFg in a 50 will be about right. You will need to experiment a little and see what works best but for 25-50 yard target work or small game the light loads will work just fine. Same as using round balls in a 30 30 for cat sneeze loads.

[Outpost75]

I shoot patched .495 round balls in a .50 cal. Green Mountain LRH barrel with 1:28" twist and they shoot very well with lighter charges from 40-60 grs. of 3Fg. I tried heavier charges up to 80 grs. of 2Fg and groups opened up. You want a tight fitting ball and patch combination which requires loading with a hammer and short starter to shoot well in the fast twist. Easy-loading combinations cut patches and shoot wild.

[Maven]

Canuck Bob, Everyone, it seems, is on the same page with respect to powder charges and patched RB's in fast twist bbls. In short, as the White ML document indicates, accuracy declines when powder charges increase beyond a given threshold. RB diameter, patch thickness, and bbl. quality (uniformity, smoothness) also affect accuracy. I've attached a PDF image of a target fired from a 26" Green Mountain bbl'ed., 1:28 twist Knight Bighorn with a receiver sight. Although those 50 yd. groups were good, they opened up appreciably when only 5 more grains of powder (FFg) were added, i.e., 65gr. FFg.

The particulars were: 60gr. Diamondback FFg + .490" RCBS RB (.492" in fact) + .018" (compressed) pillow ticking + 1 Ballistol : 6 water patch lube. Btw, the rifle seems to shoot more accurately with FFg than FFFg.

[Canuck Bob]

I've sent off a bid for the rifle and am now comfortable I can tune the load to meet the mission. Thanks for the input. One nice aspect is the ability to step up to a cast conical for hunting if I sell it. I also learned a bunch about muzzleloading. It seems depth of rifling is more important than I realized for a muzzleloader.

It comes with some Hornady balls and I got everything else to shoot! Retirement due to health kinda sucks in many ways but not for available range time.

[Outpost75]

Canuck Bob, Everyone, it seems, is on the same page with respect to powder charges and patched RB's in fast twist bbls. In short, as the White ML document indicates, accuracy declines when powder charges increase beyond a given threshold. RB diameter, patch thickness, and bbl. quality (uniformity, smoothness) also affect accuracy. I've attached a PDF image of a target fired from a 26" Green Mountain bbl'ed., 1:28 twist Knight Bighorn with a receiver sight. Although those 50 yd. groups were good, they opened up appreciably when only 5 more grains of powder (FFg) were added, i.e., 65gr. FFg.

The particulars were: 60gr. Diamondback FFg + .490" RCBS RB (.492" in fact) + .018" (compressed) pillow ticking + 1 Ballistol : 6 water patch lube. Btw, the rifle seems to shoot more accurately with FFg than FFFg.

In my GM LRH barrel I am not shooting pure lead, but 1:40 tin-lead and the gun has a short, 22" carbine-length barrel, so I used 3Fg rather than 2Fg for a cleaner burn and higher velocity. I lubed my patches with SPG and at 60 grains got 1400 fps and 2" five-shot groups at 50 yards.

[oldracer]

With my chunk gun, 50 caliber and 1 in 48 twist the round balls shoot very well out to 200 yards. Groups are the same for 50, 100 and 200 yards of course I have a Unertl 12 power scope on it. I use 80 grains of Goex FFG and if I shoot mini's then I bump the load up to 90 grains as they are a tad heavier.
John

[Good Cheer]

In my GM LRH barrel I am not shooting pure lead, but 1:40 tin-lead and the gun has a short, 22" carbine-length barrel, so I used 3Fg rather than 2Fg for a cleaner burn and higher velocity. I lubed my patches with SPG and at 60 grains got 1400 fps and 2" five-shot groups at 50 yards.

Got one of the same barrels from the mid '90's. I called it the SRH for grins.
Been wanting to try the old Lee trash can minie loaded backwards but haven't figured out what to stick in the nose of the bullet. :)

[indian joe]

Got one of the same barrels from the mid '90's. I called it the SRH for grins.
Been wanting to try the old Lee trash can minie loaded backwards but haven't figured out what to stick in the nose of the bullet. :)

22case full of black might work?? backwards of course...............

[charlie b]

I have experimented a little with my Lyman GPH and round ball. It has been more difficult to find a good load than slower twist barrels I have shot. My old Kentucky .45 shot well with almost any load put down the barrel. The Lyman has been more finicky.

It definitely did not like 80gn loads. At 50gn groups got a bit smaller. 40 was better (4" at 100yd). I tried 30gn but it was inconsistent (may have been me). One group would be 2" and the next 5". I have not messed with the loads enough to find a consistent load. I think the potential is there, just take some time to find the right load.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[Canuck Bob]

With my chunk gun, 50 caliber and 1 in 48 twist the round balls shoot very well out to 200 yards. Groups are the same for 50, 100 and 200 yards of course I have a Unertl 12 power scope on it. I use 80 grains of Goex FFG and if I shoot mini's then I bump the load up to 90 grains as they are a tad heavier.
John

I'm a greenhorn, what is a chunk gun?

[duckey]

I have a TC Grey Hawk with 1:48" twist. It shoots Maxiballs and RB's with great accuracy to 50 yards and will reach out to 100, however most of my target shooting is 50 yards with either Pyrodex and most recently real back 3F at 90 grains.

[Canuck Bob]

The rifle is on its way. The twist rate verification will be the first order of business. Outpost I don't get the ratio of 1:40 as an alloy percentage. I also intend to add some tin from a stash of tin solder for the balls. The added castability is worth it and the tin is already paid for. Would 1% be an effective blend?

[dondiego]

All TCs were 1:48 and shot RB fairly well. A 1:30s would be slightly better.
Why do you believe that a 1:30 twist would be better for round ball shooting?

[ShooterAZ]

1/60 twist would be slightly better....

[oldracer]

A "chunk Gun" usually is a percussion or flint lock rifle with a long, large diameter barrel that can be upwards of 2 or 3 inches across the flats. They usually have a tang and globe sight or possibly a scope such as a Unertl. Since they are heavy, even 40 or 50 pounds they are shot from a bench or on a log (chunk) with the shooter prone. In most cases they are hand made with the best hardware you can find such as Douglas XX barrels, Lewis locks and Lewis triggers and Unertl scopes. Because of the rules most have conventional side ignition systems and not an under hammer.

Do a Google search for the match named after "Alvin York" or the "Bevel Brothers" and you can see what the guns look like.
John

[mooman76]

I have a 54 T/C Scout with 1/20 twist. It shot RBs with light loads well at 25y but I never have taken in back farther yet to see how it does.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Why do you believe that a 1:30 twist would be better for round ball shooting?

It would be worse, and I think it is true that 1:60 or slower would be better than the quite passable 1:48.

A conventionally patched round ball, with wrinkles round the edge, is bound to be less concentric with the bore axis than a good cylindro-conical bullet, grooved or paper patched. Eccentricity of mass affects accuracy in two ways. It could induce a wobble or corkscrew motion in flight. but that isn't much of a problem with round ball. It also produces an angular deflection at the muzzle, and this is proportional to the speed of rotation. The best twist is the slowest that will keep the front of the ball at the front.

[indian joe]

It would be worse, and I think it is true that 1:60 or slower would be better than the quite passable 1:48.

A conventionally patched round ball, with wrinkles round the edge, is bound to be less concentric with the bore axis than a good cylindro-conical bullet, grooved or paper patched. Eccentricity of mass affects accuracy in two ways. It could induce a wobble or corkscrew motion in flight. but that isn't much of a problem with round ball. It also produces an angular deflection at the muzzle, and this is proportional to the speed of rotation. The best twist is the slowest that will keep the front of the ball at the front.

That "quite passable" 1:48 twist still has limitations (with roundball) that the 1:66 does not - that said - 1:48 is a good compromise if the shooter sees a need to experiment with minies or other elongated missiles -----going the other way some slow twist barrels (1:72 etc) seem to need a substantial load to get them to shoot acurately.

[indian joe]

1/60 twist would be slightly better....

would be much better I reckon!!!

[indian joe]

The rifle is on its way. The twist rate verification will be the first order of business. Outpost I don't get the ratio of 1:40 as an alloy percentage. I also intend to add some tin from a stash of tin solder for the balls. The added castability is worth it and the tin is already paid for. Would 1% be an effective blend?

Bob
Tin in roundball is a poinless excercise - dont need it!!
1) Tin is a much more expensive metal than lead - save your money even if you already paid
2) softer is better for roundball
3) I get your castability argument for making boolits - but it has minimal effect casting roundball - roundball is easy!