What do you know about 45-70 forager rounds?

[GoodOlBoy]

I ran across a new one to me the other day while going on a walk about the internet. At some point in the long ago past the US Govt made "Forager" rounds for the 45-70. These had wood capsules with birdshot in them, and I even spotted one mention and picture of a wood encapsulated buckshot round.

Being that my old H&R Handi in 45-70 has been murmuring at me as of late I was wondering what folks know of these? How they were constructed? Anybody heard of anybody recreating these rounds?

Mostly a curiosity question from a fella who can't get out and do much these days. It don't stop the mind from wonderin' about it.

God Bless, and One Love.

GoodOlBoy

[nagantguy]

Haven’t heard of these but sounds like an interesting project.

[bruce drake]

http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/06_item_058.htm
Here is some more information including pictures of the various 45-70 Forager shot cartridges

[Wayne Smith]

Anyone know dimensions of the sabots? Internal and external. I have drill bits and a lathe!

[GoodOlBoy]

Bruce Drake, yep that is one of the sites I found, but other than a few pictures and descriptions there isn't much there. No information on how they were made, dimensions on wall thickness of the sabots, load, powder, etc. I can't imagine that the wood sabots would "hold up" to a full 70 grain load of black, but then again I don't know.

220841

These are the only two images I was able to find of the buckshot version. Oh and indication was that the buckshot load would have carried 2 buckshot in it? Weird why not three?

God Bless, and One Love.

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

Couple of things that just dawned on me. I'd be curious what Wayne Smith (who seems as eager as me to figure these out :p ) and anybody else would think.

#1 wonder what wood was used? Heavy and dense hardwood? Light softwood?

#2 wonder what the wood was treated with? It obviously was sealed, it hasn't expanded from moisture, nor has it darkened over time. Beeswax which would also lube it? I doubt animal fat such as lard as it would have discolored and/or gone rancid....

Just a couple of musings....


Haven’t heard of these but sounds like an interesting project.
Just what I was thinking, Nagantguy, and while I can't fiddle with lead right now, I can fiddle with wood :p

God Bless, and One Love

GoodOlBoy

[Tatume]

Ken Mathews experimented with the 45-70 for many years. You might find some information in his book "Forty Years with the Forty Five Seventy."

[eric123]

Would be easy enough to make a load with a couple of gas checks and birdshot, like a snake loads for handguns...I suppose one could load one or two round balls in the case for a duplex load...

[Gray Fox]

This probably could be done with 2 or 3 .457 round balls with a card wad on top of a moderate powder charge and the case roll crimped into the hemisphere of the top ball. Anyone done this? GF

[GoodOlBoy]

Would be easy enough to make a load with a couple of gas checks and birdshot, like a snake loads for handguns...I suppose one could load one or two round balls in the case for a duplex load...

Yes you most likely could, and you certainly could if speer ever made a .457 or .458 capsule to go along with the pistol .45 capsule for shot loads. However part of the appeal of the wood capsule is the historic value of it, AND it would be easy to spot/find in a bag or pocket without mistaking it for empty brass. A good idea though, and one we should revisit particularly if we get the wood rounds made up to test against the other versions.



This probably could be done with 2 or 3 .457 round balls with a card wad on top of a moderate powder charge and the case roll crimped into the hemisphere of the top ball. Anyone done this? GF

Actually I think multiple of our handy members on here have done this one, and in point of fact I am hoping to some day make a parlor/plinking load with a single round ball crimped in this manner for light light target and bunny poppers. Again though one of the reasons to investigate the original wood sabot load of it would be historical value and "neat or cool" factor. And again, I think we should consider this again once we have working working wood sabot rounds to test against. I do know that most of the guys I've heard of using a .457-.458 round ball in this way actually got pretty decent accuracy out of them.

Plus I have got to GOT TO be honest on this one. This thing, these Forager Rounds have been like a ear worm digging in my noodle since I spotted the very first mention of them. One of the reasons I so badly want to try to recreate these is I want to know how well they actually shot. Not just the theory, but the practice of a wood capsule or sabot loaded this way. Historical indication is that these were NOT a "rare" thing back in the day, therefore you have to make at least a minor assumption that they were effective in some form or fashion. Plus, as I mentioned, I just find the entire idea behind them neat and bewitching. I dunno I think part of it is historic, part of it is nostalgia, part of it is the mystery. I've been shooting 45-70 for alot of years, why did I just NOW stumble upon this? And dog gone it how were they made in the 1880s? Did somebody actually sit down and whittle out each and every capsule and sabot at a factory somewhere? I mean, yeah I know we can do it with card wads, and gas checks, but I suspect we should find that the wood sabots and capsules were more effective in a rifled bore. Since looking at this I've seen that eventually they were replaced with crimped brass shot rounds, then poof they pretty well disappeared. I think, again don't know but think, that this was probably because just a card wad, crimped brass round would throw a shot pattern like a two year old sneezing on a birthday cake in the middle of a whirlwind... Again, I suspect this, but I just don't know.

220869
An image I found for comparison of wood vs crimped.

As much as I would hate to destroy something historic, if I had the funds I would buy a couple of these rounds just to be able to tear them down and measure everything in them. Wouldn't that be something?

God Bless, and One Love

GoodOlBoy

[Mr_Sheesh]

This is bugging me too, I may try using a .45-90 case to form it into a .45-70 shot round; 2.4inches vs 2.104 inches so it doesn't give you LOTS of shot space though, and I don't have a .45-70 (yet.) You could definitely 3D print a sabot, and I would think you could improvise one out of a .45 shot capsule with paper patching, or even use some casing like a .45 ACP swaged down slightly for a shot capsule? Wood should be doable though, definitely, maybe drill a larger dowel out, put a dowel inside using PVA or some other temporary glue to tack things together, then lathe the outside layers off to thin the casing down? I am not a carpentry expert tho, but that seems a possible approach.

[uscra112]

I've read that the forager rounds were meant to be used in a trapdoor shotgun. Apparently frontier units were supplied with one or two of these, for the obvious purpose. That they existed is confirmed by the fact that they have shown up on Gunbroker. Not often - they are pretty rare.

[nhithaca]

Look up "Hot Shot" capsules on the web. Thompson Center sold these in the late 1960s and early '70s for the Contender. I believe the 44 mag version held up to 0.5 oz of shot. All of this was before they won the SCOTUS case against the BATF.

[nhithaca]

And yes, I too am interested in what the originals were made from and how they were used.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Thinking more - I imagine you could use heat shrink tubing or the like with a thin plastic or wood (or gas check) in front and a base (maybe cast urethane?) inserted into the case to hold the shot? Or some frangible plastic tubing would maybe work. 3d printing for 45-70 shotshells really sounds interesting to me for some reason, it's the mix between the old case and the new tech probably :)

[GoodOlBoy]

Wood should be doable though, definitely, maybe drill a larger dowel out, put a dowel inside using PVA or some other temporary glue to tack things together, then lathe the outside layers off to thin the casing down? I am not a carpentry expert tho, but that seems a possible approach.

Now see that is along the line I was thinking too (hoping Wayne will chime in). I thought about reversing it though. take four pieces of wood, match of the corners, round off and shape the outside after chucking it to a drill somehow. Drill out the center bottom and now you have a four "lobed" sabot/capsule to fill with shot and plug with a card. Treat with beeswax (or something) and either load it that way, or make it slightly undersized and paper patch it. Once it leaves the muzzle I am thinking it will petal open and let the shot go on its merry way. Still musing on it. I know most of the historical ones look like a very thin hollowed out unified piece of wood, not cut (with the exception of the buckshot version)



I've read that the forager rounds were meant to be used in a trapdoor shotgun.

Now see one site, the one with the buckshot version, DID show a smoothbore on it, so I don't doubt it. But the sheer numbers of them supposedly sold wouldn't account of a couple of smoothbores here and there. Plus you know every Tom, Dick, and Harry wanted a couple in case it was his turn at the stew pot, or in case something got a little too close that would fit in said pot. I also read that ONE version was actually designed for the Gatling gun, but couldn't verify it and couldn't find an image for it unless I am mis-remembering what I read.


Look up "Hot Shot" capsules on the web.
I hadn't remembered seeing those before until I looked them up, thanks! Speer, and now apparently CCI both make one you load the shot in yourself for 38, 44, and 45 long colt. It would be under sized in a 45-70 unless you were to patch them. I do want to load some of these to test vs wood, and vs gas checks/card wads once i get to that point.
220889

Keep 'em coming guys I'm glad to see I'm not the only one very curious about these.

God Bless, and One Love

GoodOlBoy

[Larry Gibson]

Foraging shot 45-70 load

I use a fired R-P case but others work just as well.

Deprime and reprime with standard LR (make doesn’t seem to matter) primer.

Drop 10 gr of Unique over primer and then gently push a ½ gr of Dacron down on top as a “wad”.

A Federal 410SC shotcup is pushed in and seated down on top of the Dacron. I use a pencil (erasure end) for both of the above steps.

The cup is then filled with shot until it is “heaping” over the case mouth.

An inverted GC or a thick cardboard wad is pressed down until inside the case mouth.

The case mouth is then crimped to hold the GC/wad in. A standard roll crimp seating die works fine. I set a 230 gr .451 .45 ACP bullet (a 300 – 400 gr GC base bullet without the GC works well too) on top of the GC/wad. By adjusting the seating stem so the bullet holds the GC/wad just inside the case mouth at the right depth when crimped works well.

Velocity is 1160 fps out of my 22” barreled Trapdoor carbine. I’ve shot 20 shots with no leading as the bore is protected by the Federal wad. Pattern with 22” twist rifling is useable to 25 yards with 7 shot on grouse and rabbits and to perhaps 20 yards on quail. Ground sluicing is acceptable when “foraging”. Smaller shot should be used (8-9 size shot) if close range areal gunnery is done on smaller birds. For snakes at close range the number of shot with even #7 shot is dense enough given the amount of shot. This load is pretty much the same as a 2 ½” .410 shot shell.

[pietro]

Ken Mathews experimented with the 45-70 for many years.

You might find some information in his book "Forty Years with the Forty Five Seventy."




https://www.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/book-fy4570_1.jpg

[Outpost75]

Reading this thread with interest and curiosity. I no longer own a Trapdoor or any .45-70, but several .410s and also a .44-40 break-open single-barrel smoothbore shotgun. Might be a stupid question, but would 2-1/2" .410 loads enter a .45-70 chamber?
I realize the .45-70 case is shorter, but some makes of .410 rounds are less than .460 at the case mouth and might enter. Just thinkin' out loud, has anyone tried one for fit or fired one?

[Wayne Smith]

My 45-70 barrel currently is my Encore Katadin barrel.

Making the shot capsule is not a problem. Take a piece of wood the appropriate length, drill a hole the right size and depth (what I need to know) and put an expandable rubber chuck in the hole and turn the outside to appropriate size/shape.

[nhithaca]

410 shells 2.5" long shoot fine out of a 45-70. Have done it. Anything over 15-20 yards the pattern is iffy. May not eject well from a lever gun but should work fine in a single shot. Both Marlin and Winchester sold guns based on their normal lever action in 410. Now bringing big bucks on GunBroker.

[rfd]

these may be of apropos interest ...

http://ballwright4570.com/

http://4570book.info/Ballwright_Hand_Loader.html

[GoodOlBoy]

these may be of apropos interest ...
I appreciate the link, and it is a curious item, but I am suspicious and my neck hairs are standing on end. Considering most of the video, and a good portion of the advertised kit show Lee Classic Loader parts (which I already have), AND at no place can I find a place to actually get a price or order the kit. Everything says call guy in Oregon... The only date mentioned on the site is 2012, and nothing indicates anybody but me has even tracked dust through that website since... There are exactly three websites in the world that mention that kit and are word for word verbatim copy and pastes, and a single magazine reference from Nov 2013 for the Single Shot Exchange... A magazine whose last "Back Issue" available is from 2016, and hasn't updated their copyright and website info since 2015, and who advertises that if you buy a year subscription you get a free ad to advertise in the magazine as part of it.... I just.... These may all be up and up people, that may be an up and up product, but everything screams snake oil to me...

Besides which several folks on here have loaded round ball loads without that kit. I dunno maybe I am just too suspicious but... no....



Forty Years with the 45-70 by Paul A Matthews
I understand it is a good book. Can anybody tell me if it actually mentions a wood capsule/sabot forager round anywhere between the covers before I spend money I don't really have on a copy?

The authors personal experiences with a number of different .45-70 rifles over the past 4 decades. Soft cover, 184 pages.

The Table of Contents includes the following:

Acknowledgments
Introduction to First Edition
Chapter 1 The Seed Is Planted
Chapter 2 The Search
Chapter 3 The Gould Bullet
Chapter 4 The Postell Bullet and a Springfield
Chapter 5 Back to the Gould Bullet
Chapter 6 Jacketed Bullets and a Few Deer
Chapter 7 A Question of Pressure
Chapter 8 Multiple Bullet Load
Chapter 9 Looking for a Single Shot
Chapter 10 The Two Rugers
Chapter 11 More Deer with the No. 1
Chapter 12 Back to the Ruger No. 3
Chapter 13 Search for a Cast Bullet
Chapter 14 RCBS, Old West and Hoch Molds
Chapter 15 Paper Patched Bullets
Chapter 16 Deer and Wild Boar
Chapter 17 Patching Grooved Bullets
Chapter 18 Other Molds and Loads
Chapter 19 Powders
Chapter 20 The Final Word
Chapter 21 Letters
Addendum - Six More Years
Introduction to Addendum
Chapter 22 Back to a Lever Rifle - the Marlin 1895SS
Chapter 23 The Navy Arms Buffalo Rifle
Chapter 24 A New Long-Range .45-70 Rifle

I've got enough load data to load just about anything in the 45-70 using almost any powder and bullet imaginable from black powder to cordite, from collar button and round ball to 500+ gr. The information I DON'T HAVE is for.... wait for it... 45-70 wood capsule/sabot forager rounds.... Does Chapter 8 Multiple Bullet Load or Chapter 18 Other Molds and Loads have this information? Please! So many people say "get a copy" somebody has to have one! If it has this info I will buy one, can somebody please just let me know if it does?


Wayne Smith said

My 45-70 barrel currently is my Encore Katadin barrel.

Making the shot capsule is not a problem. Take a piece of wood the appropriate length, drill a hole the right size and depth (what I need to know) and put an expandable rubber chuck in the hole and turn the outside to appropriate size/shape.

Wayne, I have an email sent to Kenneth McPheeters, owner of McPheeters Antique Militaria to see if he would be kind enough to get us OD, ID, and Depth info on the rounds. In all honesty I know it is asking alot of Mr McPheeters to get that information, and at this point if I had the money I would simply buy the rounds outright. I didn't feel good about sending him a random email asking for the information, but it is because I've always done business with men face to face with a handshake. I do intend to someday acquire some of the loaded rounds and hopefully a capsule or two to add to my collection, and being that he is in my home state of Texas he'll be the first person I'll try to purchase from. I already know this is going to happen "someday" but man this has my attention so hard that I want to get the information ASAP, and "someday" is driving me nuts.

God Bless, and One Love

Richard

[GoodOlBoy]

Not to leave anybody out, I'm really enjoying what I'm reading, and if any of my replies seem "aggressive" that isn't my intent by any stretch of the imagination and if I am coming across that way I do apologize.

Larry Gibson
I like that idea very much, and again I'll add it to the list of things I want to test against the historic rounds once I've gotten to that point. I appreciate all the detail, and man it is good to know you've gotten good results from those loads.

Outpost75
That is a good question and I would be interested as well.

"Borrowed from Wikipedia"

45-70
Case type Rimmed, tapered[1]
Bullet diameter .458 in (11.6 mm)
Neck diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
Base diameter .505 in (12.8 mm)
Rim diameter .608 in (15.4 mm)
Rim thickness .070 in (1.8 mm)
Case length 2.105 in (53.5 mm)
Overall length 2.550 in (64.8 mm)
Rifling twist 1-20"
Primer type Large rifle

.410 bore
Case type Rimmed, straight, (optional plastic)
Bullet diameter .410 in (10.4 mm) (slug)
Neck diameter .455 in (11.6 mm) (plastic)
Base diameter .470 in (11.9 mm)
Rim diameter .535 in (13.6 mm)
Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm)
Overall length 2", 2½, 3"
Primer type Shotshell Primer

There's enough variance there, especially at head and rim I would be concerned about safety and head splitting. Has anybody ever done that? I am not encouraging anybody to try since I don't know if it is safe, I am asking has anybody already done it. I KNOW the reverse wouldn't be safe. PLEASE be safe and practice only safe loading and ammunition procedures. Use only the ammunition and load data listed for your particular firearm.

God Bless, and One Love

Richard

[Mr_Sheesh]

GoodOlBoy - I've seen that Gatling round (anti-personnel use) too. Somewhere.

Larry Gibson - Hmmm! Thank you. I can see I have catching up to do! Already have Remington SP-410 shot wads (I use those for 45 ACP shot shells), semi hard to find. Would those suffice? Can get the Federal 410SC if needed. Then I'll need a 45-70 :) Would those rounds cycle and function acceptably in a Henry lever action, any idea? (I know the shot'd disperse in a cone due to rifling. Oh well.)

Wayne Smith, expandable rubber chuck, nice idea!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

They existed all right. The contracts are known, and I should think some specimens have recorded military provenance and packaging. But I am quite sure a lot are fakes. Whether they were commonly issued I don't know. It could easily be that some soldiers brought along a few they purchased themselves, to improve their lot on campaign. Remember that some have suggested one reason for the Little Bighorn disaster to be the very limited number of bulleted rounds the soldiers got to expend on target practice. But that was serious business, and recreation and variety of nutrition might have lagged some way behind.

Bruce's website, an excellent one, doesn't say much about shot size. I would suspect that soldiers may have seen more of the guard cartridge, although those were no doubt seldom fired. Mistakes do happen at night, and it has been common practice for armies, right into the smokeless era, to have guard cartridges that wouldn't look too bad if you had to make apologies afterwards.

I wouldn't trust the short-sabot rounds in a tube-magazine rifle and if you wanted to duplicate these rounds nowadays, I think you would get the best results by forming the longest brass you could get with the .45-70 base dimensions. But that would be expensive and rebodying .45-70 cases with half-inch K&S brass tubing would probably be adequate. The wooden sabots would surely require a good, solid wad to prevent the shot occasionally being blown out, leaving the soldier with a bore obstruction and a ring-bulged barrel to have stopped out of his pay. That wad would much reduce the powder space, but you don't need the rifle charge, which would probably produce deformed shot and blown patterns.

If I wanted to use wood I would experiment with thin veneer steamed bent around a mandrel and either glued with a water soluble glue or with any kind if you let it dry to shape first, I think two thicknesses of veneer would be stronger than the drilled kind, and probably still burst at the muzzle.

[GoodOlBoy]

Ballistics in Scotland... steam bending wood veneer..... son of a gun, even if I can get the dimensions and try Wayne's method I think this method is worth testing too! Thanks for that suggestion! As for fakes, oh I am sure if there is a dollar to be made from a dime somebody somewhere has made a fake of it. Mostly I am interested in recreating the originals purpose and methods of creation. Or at least a workable facsimile thereof.

Mr Sheesh - it's a bear havin' CRS... I'm eat up with it! :p Or as I always say to my wife "My rememberer is broke, and my forgetter is stuck in high gear!" Hopefully tonight I can do some more online digging, maybe figure out where it was I read about that Gatling gun load...


God Bless, and One Love

Richard

[nicholst55]

Read this sticky: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?77286-Revolver-shot-loads-that-WORK!&highlight=revolver+shot+loads+work%21

You should be able to adapt the idea for your usage.

[uscra112]

How about forming capsules with papier-mache around a plastic mandrel?

[shell70634]

221020
221021
221022
221023
I didn't know they were called Forager rounds. Wood appears to be poplar or birch.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Thanks folks, a great thread :)

If you REALLY want to bend wood, there's steaming it, and then there's ammonia, which makes it spaghetti-noodle-like till it evaporates off?Friend uses that on musical instrument repairs, I can get TOO MANY details from him, he tends to talk for hours. S'OK tho :)

Papier Mache could work, plastic 410 wads seem faster tho :)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Some veneer might bend to a .45 circumference dry, with the grain lengthwise, or dipping it in boiling water might do. Ammonia sounds interesting, although it may darken some kinds of wood, as the fumes do with oak.

[Mr_Sheesh]

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?191416-Bending-wood-with-ammonia is an example of that technique. If you use Anhydrous Ammonia fumes that'll work too, but few have that around since the Blueprint etc. went away...

[GoodOlBoy]

221020
221021
221022
221023
I didn't know they were called Forager rounds. Wood appears to be poplar or birch.
That's a nice collection of them you've got! Popular or Birch would make sorta sense, and would explain the light coloration and strength of the wood.

Hadn't heard of the ammonia version of bending wood, but that don't surprise me much. Any information on it would be appreciated! What I know would fill a book or two, what I don't know would fill libraries! :p

God Bless, and One Love

Richard

[GoodOlBoy]

Update: So far no response from McPheeters, which is not unexpected. I mean I am asking for free information out of a person running a business so it isn't like I can grouse if I don't get it.

Still digging and reading. Collecting every image and piece of info I can find on them... I think I have found a very unhealthy obsession with these rounds. Only time will tell I guess.

It is still my intent to keep going on these. If anybody runs across more info, pics, or ideas. Please feel free to post them. I won't stop checking this post anytime soon :p

God Bless, and One Love.

GoodOlBoy

[45-70 Chevroner]

That's a nice collection of them you've got! Popular or Birch would make sorta sense, and would explain the light coloration and strength of the wood.

Hadn't heard of the ammonia version of bending wood, but that don't surprise me much. Any information on it would be appreciated! What I know would fill a book or two, what I don't know would fill libraries! :p

God Bless, and One Love

Richard

Your loaded rounds appear to be solid wood slugs rather than wood shot cups. They are interesting though.

[GoodOlBoy]

Your loaded rounds appear to be solid wood slugs rather than wood shot cups. They are interesting though.
Nope, that's what the wood sabot/capsule looks like from the top side. Image borrowed from McPheeters Antique Militaria.
221342
Hollow on the bottom, round bullet-y shape on top... Each one filled with shot.

God Bless, and One Love

GoodOlBoy

[Mr_Sheesh]

Definitely handy images! I'd think that Papier Mache' is worth trying too, just to see if it fails or works :) I'm curious!

[GoodOlBoy]

I received and email from Kenneth McPheeters of McPheeters Antique Militaria. He was extremely polite and knowledgeable, but is as usually my luck in such matters the sabots he had have already been sold, therefore he wasn't able to get measurements of them. He was able to give me a decent ballpark guess of the sabots, however.

As memory serves, the sabots seat in the cartridge cases much the same as a lead bullet, and for all intent and purposes, the longer sabots are of the same basic dimension as the 500 grain lead bullet loaded for the arsenal produced .45-70 rifle cartridges. The shorter sabots were a bit shorter than the carbine bullet, but not dramatically so.
So I am going to try to dig up information on the original Arsenal loaded 500gr bullet, and the Carbine bullet until I can afford to get actual rounds to dismantle and measure!
In case he ever stops by a BIG thanks to Mr. Kenneth McPheeters for his time, and for trying to help. Thank you!

Mr Sheesh - I'm interested how your idea turns out, keep us informed please!

Again I have by no means given up on this idea or project. As soon as I have more information I will add it to the thread, and/or will be glad to continute any discussion on the matter! :D

God Bless, and One Love.

Richard

[Mr_Sheesh]

I am thinking that, since I don't have a .45-70, I can use a medium stiff load in .45 Colt maybe? A 14" contender barrel should tell us something about results. Maybe make a 1/8" thick wall thickness, that should do it? Size it to match a 600 Grain bullet, sure. Have to figure out a load :)

[45-70 Chevroner]

Nope, that's what the wood sabot/capsule looks like from the top side. Image borrowed from McPheeters Antique Militaria.
221342
Hollow on the bottom, round bullet-y shape on top... Each one filled with shot.

God Bless, and One Love

GoodOlBoy
That being the case the sabot would have to shatter like the modern day plastic sabot to work like a shot gun.

[GoodOlBoy]

Mr Sheesh... Yep that might work. One of the advantages of the 45 long colt is speer and cci both still make plastic capsules to do the job. I would be very curious about a wood, or paper mache load as you mentioned in it. Just please please please be careful. We don't need to have a good person and re-loader injured. Always use safe loading practices, follow published load data, the whole lawyer warning blurb.

45-70 Chevroner... I would fully expect that such a round would indeed shatter, split and splinter upon exiting the muzzle. We are talking about a very thin wood capsule/sabot running without lube, or with minimal lube down the rifling. When it exits the muzzle force of spin; not to mention force of expansive gasses into that rear open, or even if it is plugged, pocket; would logically crack that baby open like an egg out of a tater gun. Once it is split it would, due to weight, decelerate at a much faster rate than the shot itself would. The shot itself should stay in a tighter pattern due to the energy transfer and rotation from the rifling, without blowing out into a "donut" pattern because the shot itself never touched the rifling; which is the leading suspected cause of the "donut" shot patterns out of rifled barrels when not using a cup, capsule, sabot, or patch in a makeshift shell. But all of that being said it is one of the reasons I really want to measure an original round. They obviously had the thickness correct on the wood or it wouldn't be so blatantly similar between the various capsules/sabots shown.

God Bless, and One Love

GoodOlBoy

[mazo kid]

Very interesting thread! My question concerns holding the lead shot in the wood sabot. Could a cardboard wad be pushed into the cavity, or maybe a bit of wax poured into it? All these questions.....

[GoodOlBoy]

Very interesting thread! My question concerns holding the lead shot in the wood sabot. Could a cardboard wad be pushed into the cavity, or maybe a bit of wax poured into it? All these questions.....

That question has been bugging me since I first saw them. I would suspect (but won't know until I can deconstruct a round or two) that there would be some kind of wadding in the base. Can it be? Certainly on a newly made round it CAN be, and I would think we would WANT it to be, but I don't know. WAS it done? Yeah back to deconstructing rounds :p Now as to the wax poured in... see that marks another question. I know that some folks have made "wax slugs" using shot and wax in shotgun shells, but the idea there is to get them to hold a "slug like" shape, which you wouldn't want in a "forager" round. Flip side is I think you are thinking (I could very well be wrong) on just pouring wax over the shot on the "bottom" open side of the capsule, and THAT would be an interesting result to test as well...

Have I told ya'll I love this thread and it's theories and discussions? Man am I obsessed with these rounds....

God Bless, and One Love

GoodOlBoy

[Drm50]

I have 45/70 crimped shells that we used in a punch that put hole for bolts in the rail we used in
the mine. I have never fired one in any of my rifles because of pressure they may produce. I know
guys that ruined some 22 semi fooling around with Ramset blanks. I also have a couple 45/70
blanks from WW2 navy line throwing gun.
If I was serious about making up some of these I would by some 45 basic brass, trim to AOL and
load with 410 shot wad - put a 45 gas check on top and used what ever die necessary to put a
slight roll crimp over it. This would also tend to help cartridge cycle through a lever with rolled
case mouth. I did similar with 454 cases and 410 wads in 45Colt revolver. I couldn't get good
velocity out of Buck Shot but small shot worked well. I have loaded doubl balls in 45 and it works
ok for velocity and short range accuracy.

[Landy88]

Since this is a casting site, the obvious route is to get a heavy boolit 45-70 mold and cast hot glue or resin boolits, drilling their bases for a shot capsule. You'll probably need a wad or two and a lube cookie like are sometimes used in BPCR loads.

[GoodOlBoy]

I'm thinking resin or hot glue boolits would hold together, not separate. Since we do most forms of reloading here I think we are pretty safe to keep investigating the wood capsule/sabot loads.

God Bless, and One Love.

GoodOlBoy

[Landy88]

I suspect that the insistence on wood for shot capsules will prove cost prohibitive in time and / or tooling. One to look at and say "I did it" is one thing, but a hundred anytime that you want to go shoot them is another.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Look up "cut loads" on youtube, the cut the shell just behind the shot & launch that whole thing off as a poor man's slug... That one I wouldn't want to laubch through a full choke...

And similarly there's a different thing they do where they cut the top off a field load then pour wax in to make it a slug with the pellets held together by the wax; Frangible so it comes undone on impact, that'd be a bit hard on Quail or Rabbit if your plan was to toss them in the pot for dinner.

GoodOlBoy - :kidding: Well, darn. I was planning to keep pressures below 75k PSI, tops; You mean you think I should keep it below 70k tops, then? So much for my plans for a Picric acid powered, triple C4 enhanced Super Shot Whammy load! LOL

(I like slow powders and low pressures, was thinking more like a mouse fart load really, at first, NOT a heavy load. First firing'd be in a Contender as those are a bit hardish to make go kaboom. Probably a 45ACP Shotshell load should be too much powder, 6 Gr. of Unique with 105 grains of shot, so I'll start a WAYS below that if we're talking ~500 Gr. shot here? How does 1.5 Gr. Bullseye sound? Do I hear a 1 Gr. bid? If I load that in a 45 Colt there's lots of powder space. Maybe Kapok to position that. Reminds me, I need to get QuickLoad. NOT planning to be stupid here - More like seriously paranoidish, as Murphy IS out to get you and I, should we be dumb enough to turn our backs on him. I'll keep the higher pressures with magnum rounds, and slightly compressed loads of slow powder, per usual, and make this a fun but no body parts lost experience. I will tease about other things, but I refrain from uttering those deadly words, "Here - Hold my beer!" or even "What's the worst that could happen?" Those words get Murphy's complete attention, "Aaaah, another SUCKER!")

First figure out how to make papier mache shotshells. I might use balsa or something for the nose cap & base, then it's just "make a cylinder" which could be in between 2 brass tubes, warm it till dry? Lots of thinking to do first, and some other reloading :)

[gpidaho]

The historical aspect of the forager rounds is what makes this interesting. Shotshells made from strait wall brass cases are common and load stacks and wadding as varied as your imagination. The 444 Marlin case is very common for making .410 shot loads and I can say from personal experience they work pretty good fired from either a 410 or a 444. Using stuffable wadding I see no reason why a 45-70 wouldn't work for filling the stew pot. Gp

[Mr_Sheesh]

Came up with yet another possibility here.

Make a thin cloth (maybe linen?) bag (could use a tube and tie the end off, or a flat piece and fold it together.) That will act as the shot carrier.

You will then need a base wad, wood or plastic or whatever, with a bit of a "wasp waist" for you to tie the bag to. That will seal the bag up.

Might need to paint the bag (lots of possibilities from Decoupage acrylics to wax to shellac) for durability.

Another one would be to make a thin paper tube, seal the end in any of MANY ways, attach its' base to a similar wad. That one might work too.

(Rapidly coming up with new ideas, still finishing up some other things so no progress on testing.)

[GoodOlBoy]

Mr Sheesh, the main reason I was advising safety is not for those of us who practice safe loading, but just as a reminder to folks who read these posts that may not even be part of the site. I shudder to think of some of the things we've seen come across here over the years, and there's always more to come.

One of the things I have seriously considered is making the capsule, then once it is filled paper patch it, and use the paper patching both to bring it up to bore size, and to seal off the bottom of the capsule/sabot.

As for cost prohibitive, and making 100 rounds to shoot that was mentioned. I don't really see this as a round I would take to the range and just bang away with all day long. More like a round I would keep 20 or so loaded on hand just in case I needed/wanted them. And as was said the history is mostly what makes this so interesting. Otherwise yeah, just get a 3D printer and print off a couple hundred empty capsules and get to loading, or crimp a shell, or any number of other things.

God Bless, and One Love

GoodOlBoy

[Mr_Sheesh]

GoodOlBoy, I know; I have a lot of a sense of humor, it may be odd humor but it's kept me alive despite things that have not helped.

At a local range, I've seen things like a .45-70 round that was accordioned to about 2/3 normal length - The guy with that round just hammered on his gun's lever to get it to load, despite a number of us expressing dire concerns and then leaving. I don't think it blew the gun up but we all suspected it would do SOMETHING vile to his weapon; You can't force people to learn nor use common sense! Fortunately that ranges' safety staff are GOOD, but you have to get them there before someone blows their idiot self UP to make that matter, sometimes...

These rounds are, for me, more a learning experience; That's why I will be doing shot shells for a number of rounds, including some I don't own. (Yet at leat.) I'll need to find someone who handloads around the Seattle area with a .45-70 and a .41 Mag at least, to test those two out, unless I spend more $ on getting more shootin' sticks. Choices, choices! :)

I definitely agree that someone who doesn't know what they're doing should apprentice or ask questions of and *listen carefully to the answers of* someone who IS knowledgeable, before trying reloading; It is said that the way to hell is paved with good intentions, well, "I didn't MEAN to load that round way too hot" seems a good intention... I'll tease about things like primary explosives in cartridges, but, that's humor - NOT something to do unless you're dropping those rounds off in an enemy ammo cache for them to blow themselves up with. (Which has been done in WW2 and Vietnam at least, I imagine other places too.) I'll joke about high pressures, if you look at my primers you won't see much flattening because that makes me CRINGE. Engineers understand what 55,000 PSI means - and what 75,000 PSI means - in a receiver that is inches from your face; So do other sane folks. It's the engineering equivalent of a "Here, hold my beer!" joke - Meant to point out "Yes, this is a VERY BAD IDEA", I am hoping people get that. Another one is to joke about picking a fight with the largest, nastiest guy you can find in a local biker bar, and his buddies too. "Nothing good can come of that!", and I don't even visit those. But in the right mindset it can be funny - Keep in mind that in dark times, humor gets darker, too (For example, join a local search and rescue group, go out on searches, and listen to searchers' humor on about day 8 of a search; Or Emergency Room staff humor on a hard day. It's how humans COPE. Don't mistake it for liking the stress, it's about handling the stress.)

I don't much care about cost prohibitive, I'm disabled and have too much time on my hands, just wish I had more ENERGY and days I FELT GOOD on my hands. But if I can do something that I enjoy that makes something more flexible and useful, I'll do it; Same as the rest of handloading; that's the draw of handloading for me! And cost and accuracy too :)

[GoodOlBoy]

I'm right there in the boat with you buddy. There days my head is clear and my hands ain't, and days my hands are good but my head ain't clear. I don't load on any of them kinda combos. As for dark humor, early to mid 1990s I was a scuba diver with a rescue cert... yeah I know what it gets to be like just to keep yourself going down one more time.

I'm also right there with you on it being a learning experience. I've learned more about handloading since I've been with castboolits than I ever knew before. Some of the most valuable of them lessons was what NOT to do :p

Lemme know how your tests go, I'll post if I ever get mine to a testing stage. In the meantime I'm still enjoying this thread if anybody wants to chime in for any reason. The shells to me are one of many ballistic oddities in a world that we have so much information on and yet know so little about.

God Bless, and One Love!

GoodOlBoy

[Mr_Sheesh]

Rescue diver is one thing I have intentionally avoided; It's enough to pick up after a light aircraft crash where all aboard perish, and so on. I'll post separately later on to see about finding someone local with some calibers I don't have, to test rounds...

[Michael J. Spangler]

Any updates on this one?
I just spiked up some 410SC wads to play with.
I'm planning on basically mimicking what Larry Gibson suggested.
I loaded a test cartridge last night with 8 grains of unique, pushed a 410SC wad down inside and packed it up tight with #9 shot. Used a cardboard wad over the top.
Crimped as much as a I could with a lee collet die, then used an old Lee die of some sort with a radius die mouth to put a nice roll crimp mimicking what I've seen on older shells loaded in this style.
I'll make a few more tonight using the shot cups and some with just cardboard wads to see how compare.

[Reverend Al]

Foraging shot 45-70 load

I use a fired R-P case but others work just as well.

Deprime and reprime with standard LR (make doesn’t seem to matter) primer.

Drop 10 gr of Unique over primer and then gently push a ½ gr of Dacron down on top as a “wad”.

A Federal 410SC shotcup is pushed in and seated down on top of the Dacron. I use a pencil (erasure end) for both of the above steps.

The cup is then filled with shot until it is “heaping” over the case mouth.

An inverted GC or a thick cardboard wad is pressed down until inside the case mouth.

The case mouth is then crimped to hold the GC/wad in. A standard roll crimp seating die works fine. I set a 230 gr .451 .45 ACP bullet (a 300 – 400 gr GC base bullet without the GC works well too) on top of the GC/wad. By adjusting the seating stem so the bullet holds the GC/wad just inside the case mouth at the right depth when crimped works well.

Velocity is 1160 fps out of my 22” barreled Trapdoor carbine. I’ve shot 20 shots with no leading as the bore is protected by the Federal wad. Pattern with 22” twist rifling is useable to 25 yards with 7 shot on grouse and rabbits and to perhaps 20 yards on quail. Ground sluicing is acceptable when “foraging”. Smaller shot should be used (8-9 size shot) if close range areal gunnery is done on smaller birds. For snakes at close range the number of shot with even #7 shot is dense enough given the amount of shot. This load is pretty much the same as a 2 ½” .410 shot shell.

I've loaded a nearly identical load for use in my Browning B-78 .45-70 when hunting. I load 10 grains of Unique then seat a .45 calibre gas check on the powder, add about 1/2 oz of # 7 1/2 shot and then seat another .45 calibre gas check upside down and finish with a light roll crimp at the mouth. Even in a rifled barrel they are usable on Grouse at short ranges. Another variation I've used is 10 grains of Unique, seat a gas check, add 3 .440" round balls, an upside down .45 calibre gas check, and a light roll crimp. In my B-78 the 3 round balls will stay together out to about 100 yard and print into about 6" to 8". (Note: Do NOT substitute .457" round balls for the .440" round balls! I tried that and the bore sized round balls gripped the case walls so hard that they tore the case apart about 2/3rds of the way down and the separated case with the three .457" round balls in it shot out of the barrel like a jacketed bullet ... and with some nasty recoil! Lesson learned ...)

[Outpost75]

Foraging shot 45-70 load

I use a fired R-P case but others work just as well.

Deprime and reprime with standard LR (make doesn’t seem to matter) primer.

Drop 10 gr of Unique over primer and then gently push a ½ gr of Dacron down on top as a “wad”.

A Federal 410SC shotcup is pushed in and seated down on top of the Dacron. I use a pencil (erasure end) for both of the above steps.

The cup is then filled with shot until it is “heaping” over the case mouth.

An inverted GC or a thick cardboard wad is pressed down until inside the case mouth.

The case mouth is then crimped to hold the GC/wad in. A standard roll crimp seating die works fine. I set a 230 gr .451 .45 ACP bullet (a 300 – 400 gr GC base bullet without the GC works well too) on top of the GC/wad. By adjusting the seating stem so the bullet holds the GC/wad just inside the case mouth at the right depth when crimped works well.

Velocity is 1160 fps out of my 22” barreled Trapdoor carbine. I’ve shot 20 shots with no leading as the bore is protected by the Federal wad. Pattern with 22” twist rifling is useable to 25 yards with 7 shot on grouse and rabbits and to perhaps 20 yards on quail. Ground sluicing is acceptable when “foraging”. Smaller shot should be used (8-9 size shot) if close range areal gunnery is done on smaller birds. For snakes at close range the number of shot with even #7 shot is dense enough given the amount of shot. This load is pretty much the same as a 2 ½” .410 shot shell.


I use Larry's method, except that I substitute 9.3x74R brass, which is tapered, extending past the end of the chamber, well into the throat, giving a 2-7/8" case which holds a bit more shot, and use 14 grs. of Alliant #2400. I found that faster-burning powders, such as Unique, fire-formed the extended case to take the rifling, so that a ramrod was required to drive the cases out. #2400 didn't seem to have this problem. 4227 or LittleGun should also work OK.

237490

[jkit02]

I know this is an old thread but wanted to hopefully load a few pics of 45-70 forager rounds I have-
As I guess they are somewhat rare. I have two complete boxes of them - the wood sabots are approximately 1 1/2 inches long. Head stamped USC CO 45-70. Boxes are pretty tattered but somewhat readable. I did take one wooden sabot off of a case and the pocket of the sabot holds what looks to be 7-8 shot.
Would like to know more about these as they came from a 94 year old man who sold me his Springfield trapdoor.




IMG_0769.HEIC

[Wayne Smith]

Image doesn't work. Can you measure the interior pocket, inside diameter and depth? Any guess as to the type of wood? Does there appear to be any finish on it? On the loaded rounds how deeply seated are they?

[RKJ]

jkit02, I for one am glad you brought it back up. I might not ever use my 1895 as a shotgun but it's pretty cool to read up on this sort of thing. Off topic but... I'm getting ready to tackle the 444 Marlin shot shells in my Stevens 311 410. I think that will be a lot of fun.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Forager rounds used small shot, not large balls. Think of a round designed to take grouse, turkey, rabbits, etc.

With large balls you really want the ball centered in the bore fairly well, or accuracy will be quite bad as 45-70s have rifled bores. I'd try a PE (Milk Jug plastic etc.) sabot before I tried hot glue as a sabot, and would suggest a 45 cal mold for 45-70, not 50 cal :)

[17nut]

Poplar splits nice and straight and is easy to machine.

I would make a (poplar) rod slightly larger than needed then drill the cavity with a razor sharp drillbit and machine the outer diameter to @.457 and cut it of (all lathe work!).
Load some 30-40grains of black a nice thick nitro wad and fill the capsule with shot. I would seat the cartridge on top of the capsule and when it bottoms out on the wad give it a good crimp.

I have shot loads of trap rounds in my 12 bore rifle and at 27yds there is a hole in the middle of the pattern a goose could hide in. Same with hadguns and shot loads, keep it close or aim crooked ;-)
With handguns (45LC, 45ACP and others) keep it at some 5-8yds or the void gets to large for a small critters.

[Dan1953]

Here are some for sale with good pictures -
http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/06_item_058.htm