First Time Melting - Observations and a Question

[OTShooter]

I finally had the combination of time and circumstances today, so I melted my first wheel weights into ingots. It went smoother than I had expected, but not as smooth as I’d like.

First observation: being prepared is a Very Good Thing. I used a face shield instead of just safety glasses, and I’m glad I did. It’s pretty warm out today (about 88-90), and of course I sweated a lot. The shield kept my sweat away from hot stuff very well.

Second, on advice of some veteran casters, I laid hands on a cheap aluminum muffin pan. I thought I was doing great by getting a 12 hole pan. Nope. The pan is too flimsy to support filling many of the muffin spots without a LOT of support - which would have to be provided by holding the parts that were already full of slowly cooling lead. Oops...

Since my last wood working project was quite a while ago, I had no saw dust of any kind handy, so I got some shredded aspen pet bedding for flux. It worked OK, but I’ll need to do something to make it finer the next time I use it, because the larger pieces (like large chunks of what comes off of a manual pencil sharpener) took plenty of time to char and break down, making it smokier than I would have liked.

Now a question: is it normal for wheel weight alloy to stick to aluminum? Those ingots seem really stuck in the cups. I was assured that no “mold release” was needed, but was there some other kind of prep I need to have done?

Thanks!

[rancher1913]

who ever told you aluminum muffin tins was ok for an ingot mold sold you a pig in a poke. molten lead sticks to aluminum and the only way to unstick it is to melt it out. stainless steel muffin pans work great. commercial ingot molds are aluminum, but they are thick and designed to release lead ingots.

just find some thrift store candles and throw one in to flux.

[OTShooter]

OK, that makes more sense. I’m going to take a torch to the thin muffin pan to see if I can get the ingots out.

[MrWolf]

Pine pet bedding, the finer stuff, works great. Think the resins help with flux but no expert. Just works for me. I do use wax to reduce though, small piece no bigger than a dime.

[bangerjim]

If you absolutely must use kitchen ware, use either cast iron cornbread molds or steel muffin pans that have rusted.

I use only commercial LEE, RCBS, and SACEO molds (have 10 of them or so) and have NO problems pouring and dumping ingots all day long.

banger

[birdadly]

You mention holding the muffin pan. I don’t know if that means you’re actually holding it up while pouring the lead into it or not... but if so, ideally have the muffin pan, or ingot mold or whatever, laying on the ground. I put a wet towel on cement, then the ingot mold on the towel, then pour into mold. The wet towel helps it cool quicker. -Brad

[captaint]

My first advice to new casters - melters - would be to be patient and get yourself a couple of real ingot molds. RCBS, Lyman, Lee, they all sell them and they're not too expensive. Give yourself a break. Make it as simple as possible. You could also go nuts and get one of those cast iron pots, I think RCBS sells them. They hold about 20 odd pounds. Great for first time melting - and afterward. Enjoy

[bangerjim]

Doing things “on the cheeeep” espeially when learning a technique or skill is not always the best way! I agree^^^^^^^^^.

Best to spend a little $$ on good quality commerial molds. They will last a lifetime. Or longer! Not so much for cheap kitchenware. Leave the cookware for the cook. Spend a little money up front. There are enough things to go wrong at first without muddying the waters with inferior or improper equipment.

Banger

[KMac]

D Crocket sells some nice ingot molds and a really nice Casting pot.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?335280-VS-Custom-Casting-Pots-and-Ingot-Molds

[lightman]

There is a learning curve with this hobby but its not too steep. I usually wear safety glasses but a face shield does offer more protection. I favor using the Lyman style molds but if I were starting over would seriously consider making my own from either angle or channel. I prefer to smelt in larger batches, 350-400#, thinking about consistency. You just have to be cautious not to contaminate the alloy and ruin that much lead. A cut off propane tank is a favorite vessel for smelting. The bigger batch you smelt the more ingot molds you will need to avoid waiting for them to cool.

There are many different ways to do this and you will perfect a way that suits you. It sounds like you are off to a good start.

[LenH]

I use molds made of 4" channel that are 4" long, the ingots weigh between 3.5 & 4 pounds. I also have some ingot molds I got from D Crockett and are angle iron molds.
I use a 4" pipe cap wit a piece of bar stock welded to it for a handle, this is fine for the channel molds but a bit tricky on the angle molds.

I also use aspen bedding, my son keeps reptiles and uses it for his critters and ole dad got a coffee can or two full to try, it works fine for me along with some old candle wax.
I render range lead and use something like an ice fishing strainer to remove the jackets from the melt. I get a big pile out at one time and also tap against the side of the pot to
get the last remaining lead from the jackets.

One more item that has been useful is a set of metal letter stamps from Harbor Freight. You can stamp what kind of alloy you have on hand. I found some the other day that was
marked with a magic marker and it was nearly faded away.

[gunarea]

Hey OTShooter
Your cherry is gone, go forward. My advice comes from empirical knowledge gathered over a fifty plus years of continuous effort. Some of the tips given are sage, some not so much. One of these days you will be my age and the first tip I give you may not seem important until many years from now.
220380 Get the operation up! If bending over had advantages, NASA would had discovered, refined and employed the bending over technique years ago. Protect your back and ears from damage. The benefits become obvious, when later you must beg your significant other to rub veterinary liniment on the sore spots and listen to comments insulting your intelligence. This improvement also allows for very easy and precise leveling to be accomplished. Full size symmetrical ingots make storage much more efficient.
220384 GET IT TOGETHER! 220386
If you don't shake too much just now, good for you, it is coming. The further one must move molten lead, chances of mishap will increase exponentially and introduce Mr. Murphy at the most inconvenient of possible instances.
CLEAN! 220389

No excuses here! There are so many options that all produce excellent results, learn them and do it too much. The maligned Lee "drip-O-matic" can lay 99% of their unfounded issues at the feet of incompetent lazy rendering.
Recreational and/or hobby anything is not cheap! Recreational and/or hobby shooting is no exception. Competitive shooting is even worser. Bite the bullet! Sorry for the obvious pun. Seldom does anyone rush to the shooting facility to show off their bottom of the barrel, ***, pot metal, non functioning, cheap ***, Romanian 25ACP pistol. If this is going to be a part of your life, treat it as a long term condition. Cheap is neither designed nor expected to last or give superior results. There is a vast array of very good equipment at "reasonable" prices. In reality, cost is a concern but not top priority for selection.
Heat management takes on a personality that radically changes with quantity. The fella rendering a hundred pounds of old nasty wheel weights will enjoy the luxury of small time commitment. Even when base materials are pristine with lab type consistencies of known values, a ton will demand processing procedures of much higher resource pool. With respect and no argument intended, introduction of water into the arena of molten lead is bad medicine. Ambient air is the best cooling agent for molten lead alloys. We could go into very detailed explanations of quantum effects on the different constituents, but not that important. Heat sinks that employ ambient air, are not so complicated when approached from a practical mindset. Here are two examples of common materials used. 220380 LE look away! 220403
Removing heat is mandatory! Do so efficiently and time is the profit.
Your safety approach is commendable and your family will appreciate it even if not demonstrated. Those who have suffered from lack of safety protocol can provide a 20/20 hindsight. Stupid stuff is free ammunition for the wife. Keep on meltin.
Roy

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If and when you decide to spend some money on ingot molds, consider this...Stack ability as well as 'fit' in your casting pot. Also, it's nice to have a size that fits snug in certain size boxes for ship-ability.

I started out with the inexpensive aluminum Lee ingot molds. much like their boolit molds, they can't be mistreated, or they will break and/or become unusable in a short time. BUT, the Lee ingots stack nicely and fit into any pot.

I've bought alloy from other members, some have been poured into muffin tins, and I just gotta say, I really dislike how muffin shaped ingots stack...the only way that I've found to store them is to just throw them in a 5 gallon bucket.

Most other commercial ingot molds work well (RCBS, Saeco, and such). There was a member a few back that does some investment casting and made some custom ingot molds, that drop a 2.25 lb ingot in a nice shape (basically a long version of the Lee, RCBS, Saeco ingot molds) that when stacked fit perfectly into a USPS SFRB, they stack well, and fit into most any casting pot.

[mdi]

Sounds good so far, but, be aware that there are tons of old wive's tales about "safety" and bullet casting. One I hear often is "a drop of water/sweat will case an eruption". For a steam "eruption" to happen liquid must get below the surface of the melt and a drop of sweat/water will just dance around the surface of the molten lead and quickly evaporate. Wet ingots, bullets, etc, that will carry water below the surface will cause an eruption. When I was in my early teens I used to cast sinkers on Ma's stove (and nope none of my family suffered a long lingering death from lead poisoning) and I cooled the melting pot by slowly pouring water on top of the lead. No big deal. When I cast bullets or smelt I keep a spray bottle of water handy and often when I make ingots, I'll spray them with water to cool them a bit quicker.

Common sense will keep you safe when smelting/casting and just think about what you're doing. How much does a muffing ingot weigh? Multiply that by 6, 8, or 12 and that's a lot of weight to support. I put my ingot pans on the ground or on a solid bench with heat protection underneath (BTW, I've never had any lead stick to aluminum muffin pans, corn bread pans or home made sinker molds so I can't address that). I mostly use stamped steel muffin pans (without any non-stick coating), and only fill 6 or 8 "muffins" so the pans are easier to handle.

You'l hear about lead "vapors". The only time you will experience any "vapors" when casting or smelting is actually smoke from fluxing or junk in the melt. Toxic lead vapors are released from the lead at much higher temps than what is used for casting bullets. I've read (forum posts) that lead vaporizes at about 1,200 degrees, but the boiling point of lead is 3,182 degrees. Either way, lead liquefies at about 600 degrees and most casting is done at below 800 degrees, I won't worry about lead "vapors"...

But, if you feel safer with welder's gloves/gauntlets, a full face shield, welder's cap, a respirator, leather apron, and pull on boots, then by all means, use them, I don't. I wear levis, glasses, long sleeve shirts, and shoes. I have old mechanic's hands and prefer the "feel" and dexterity when casting barehanded (I did burn myself when I picked up a freshly cast bullet; I got excited about a perfectly cast bullet as it landed on the casting pad, "Wow, look at that" and I picked it up. Pain hurts and hot lead burns...:mrgreen:

[OTShooter]

I figured out the pan issue. It is steel...obviously tinned steel. So the lead soldered itself to the cups and well.... :( Good thing the pan was cheap, because I just pretty much destroyed it getting the ingots out by pounding on the cups. The cups - just pressed into the body of the pan - popped out pretty quickly, so it wasn’t particularly easy, let alone pretty, to get the cup-shaped lead out of the cups. But I did it.

Going forward, I’m going to buy a Lee ingot mold. These muffin ingots are too large to be easily placed in my Lee pot (a 4-20 Production Pot), while Lee’s molds make slender ingots that will fit easily.

I found the welding gloves to be too bulky and way too hot. I have leather work gloves that I’ll try next time. I was less worried about lead splashing my face than getting blasted with sweat steam from my sweat dripping onto any of a number of very hot things. Plus the face shield allows more air flow around my face, which makes it more comfortable to wear than goggles. The leather apron that came with the gloves (or vice versa) will be for when I’m sitting and casting bullets - I stood up the whole time for this ingot making session.

I have a) lead left in the pot, b) a LOT more wheel weights to melt down, and c) an unfortunately limited and oddly timed hiking called “free time” that I can do things out of doors. I want to finish rendering the weights (in part because they’re nasty and in my way) before I move on to pouring lead into bullet molds. Hopefullly that won’t be too “interesting” the way this experience was. ;)

[bangerjim]

I figured out the pan issue. It is steel...obviously tinned steel. So the lead soldered itself to the cups and well.... :( Good thing the pan was cheap, because I just pretty much destroyed it getting the ingots out by pounding on the cups. The cups - just pressed into the body of the pan - popped out pretty quickly, so it wasn’t particularly easy, let alone pretty, to get the cup-shaped lead out of the cups. But I did it.

Going forward, I’m going to buy a Lee ingot mold. These muffin ingots are too large to be easily placed in my Lee pot (a 4-20 Production Pot), while Lee’s molds make slender ingots that will fit easily.

I found the welding gloves to be too bulky and way too hot. I have leather work gloves that I’ll try next time. I was less worried about lead splashing my face than getting blasted with sweat steam from my sweat dripping onto any of a number of very hot things. Plus the face shield allows more air flow around my face, which makes it more comfortable to wear than goggles. The leather apron that came with the gloves (or vice versa) will be for when I’m sitting and casting bullets - I stood up the whole time for this ingot making session.

I have a) lead left in the pot, b) a LOT more wheel weights to melt down, and c) an unfortunately limited and oddly timed hiking called “free time” that I can do things out of doors. I want to finish rendering the weights (in part because they’re nasty and in my way) before I move on to pouring lead into bullet molds. Hopefullly that won’t be too “interesting” the way this experience was. ;)

As I and a bunch of wise men have said........doing (not reading) is learning! Mimimum gloves. No full face resprator required, saftey glasses, good commercerial molds that stack perfectly (unlike muffin molds....yuck!).

Good luck on your venture into re-melting and casting@@@@@@!

Bangerjim

[Rcmaveric]

I did the same thing with the muffin tins my first time. Next one i bought a sturdier muffin tin. Scoured it and covered in some salt water and left it out side for a few weeks. The layer of corrosion acts as a mold release.

You will acquire more things to use as ingot molds. Just keep an eye out at thrift and second hand stores.

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[mdi]

One "mold" I often use for larger ingots (but they do fit in my Lee pot) is the presses steel, not folded, small bread pans. At about 3 1/2"x 6"x about 3" deep. I pour anywhere from 1" to 2"-2 1/2" depending on the alloy. If it's a favorite alloy I'll make the ingots larger so one or two will nearly fill the pot.

A hint for the OP; a good "tool" to keep around the casting/smelting bench is a propane torch. Stuck lead in a muffin pan? Invert the pan and apply heat to the bottom of the cup until the ingot falls out. I've also used one to get the alloy started melting by applying heat to the lead from above. I have, although very carefully, applied heat to a finicky mold to get it up to casting temp (faster than a hot plate). On rare occasion I get "frozen" pour spouts on my bottom pour pot. A quick warm up with a propane torch fixes that right up.

[Rcmaveric]

I use those mini bread pans also. They make good ingots about the size of a brick.

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[mdi]

I use those mini bread pans also. They make good ingots about the size of a brick.

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I haven'y weighed one, but if you fill one up they are heavy! :wink:

[popper]

Don't think the muffin pans are tin coated, mostly Al. coated steel. Usually the problem is the contraction of the steel when cooling - holds on to the ingot tight. turn over on concrete when lead is solid but not cold and they usually drop right out, May need to 'drop' the pan a couple times to get the difficult ones out. As you are smelting, temp of lead is higher than casting temp, steel expands, then contracts when cooling. I don't fill to the top and most are right at 2#.
Leather work gloves are great for casting, along with long sleeve cotton shirt, ball cap - you choice of shield or glasses. Even casting can create lots of little 'spatters' that will not be fun. Lee bottom dripper is notorious.

[OTShooter]

Don't think the muffin pans are tin coated, mostly Al. coated steel. Usually the problem is the contraction of the steel when cooling - holds on to the ingot tight. turn over on concrete when lead is solid but not cold and they usually drop right out, May need to 'drop' the pan a couple times to get the difficult ones out. As you are smelting, temp of lead is higher than casting temp, steel expands, then contracts when cooling. I don't fill to the top and most are right at 2#.
Leather work gloves are great for casting, along with long sleeve cotton shirt, ball cap - you choice of shield or glasses. Even casting can create lots of little 'spatters' that will not be fun. Lee bottom dripper is notorious.
Nope, this one was tinned. Which is why I was so amazed. I went through a goodly amount of propane heating ONE of the cups to make it “let go” without any change in the grip. And there’s a characteristic grainy finish on the bottom and sides of the ingots once I beat them out - it is identical to what you see with a solder joint that failed because the wire or lead wasn’t mechanically secured to the pad or terminal.

Not that it matters now. I recycled what was left of that tin, and on Friday I got the Lee ingot mold I ordered. If the weather had cooperated - at all - today, I’d have tried the mold out already.

Now I’m going through the big old pile of wheel weights I haven’t yet melted, and finding the occasional zinc weight. I’m using a combination of scratching with a carbide scribe, squishing with a pair of pliers, and bending (the long ones, anyway). The bigger ones are easier to verify as lead (or not), but I have a bunch of small ones - even tiny ones. I wonder what the absolute smallest wheel weight is, since I found one that looked like they dipped the steel clip in liquid lead...twice. :)

[OTShooter]

Here are a couple of pictures of those tiniest weights. They're on generic paper towel for scale.
220756
220757
They're all (as far as I can tell) 0.25 ounces or 7 grams. Which must also include the weight of the clip. Wow.