Difference between TIGHT loading and easier loading?

[Canuck Bob]

Research notes that for best load development tight patch systems work best. My initial loading trials are revolving around a patched system that loads with reasonable ease using the rifle ramrod. I think my focus is what is called loading and plinking for the day from the bag for a .54 Lyman Deerstalker 1-48 twist. Some good youtube shooters really make the patch squeal! I'm interested in accurate load development maybe a little more than hunting systems. I imagine hunters want sure quick loading first. I'm interested in something in the middle.

What is the difference in the rifle loads inherent accuracy between competition tight and a tuned load that is easier to load? Are there any tricks to accuracy potential and easy loading?

[Eddie2002]

I would start with something easy to get for patching and doesn't take a lot of beating on the ball to get started like pillow ticking then work up an accurate load and try different lubes. After that try thicker patches and see how it affects accuracy. Pounding on the ball never seemed like a good idea to me. I was using a heavy range rod to seat the ball on my CVA Hawkins and was deforming the ball so much it couldn't hit squat at 25 yds. Took a while to figure that one out. I've seen the U-tube videos of black powder shooters pounding on the ball with a hammer or the ball starter and wondered what was happening to the shape of the ball. Just my take on tight loads, I'm sure more experienced shooters will dime in.

[rfd]

lots depends on the task at hand and what yer willing to do to achieve it. then find out what the gun likes best. it's all about testing and trialling for either the most accurate load possible no matter what, OR, the most accurate load that will load easy, without a hammer, or short starter, and will deliver good performance whilst not requiring a buncha fouling control, if any at all.

[Canuck Bob]

I've shot the gun with .535 Hornady balls and old prelubed patches. I didn't have a short starter and they were tight enough. The deforming of the balls concerns me. I now have a short starter but using a controlled push not a hard slap. I'm picking up some .530 Hornady balls too so a decision can be made for a mold size.

[mooman76]

I don't know the exact difference but I've always found expectable good accuracy with a tight combination. Not so tight I need to pound the ball in but where a short starter is needed. I have also heard of some doing better with a tight combo rather than a pounder in RB. You can have the tightest combo in the world but if you aren't that great a shot, it really isn't going to help you a bit.

[rfd]

i have no problem pushing, not pounding, a greased patched ball down the tube with only the rifle's ramrod. accuracy is better than my offhand shooting and i have no problem with good woods walk scores. all depends on whatcha wanna do.

it's time and money, but unless you put in the efforts and experiment with patch thickness, patch lube, ball diameter, powder brand & granularity & charge, you'll never really know what you and yer gun are missing. no shortcut to success unless you get real lucky.

[rfd]

I've shot the gun with .535 Hornady balls and old prelubed patches. I didn't have a short starter and they were tight enough. The deforming of the balls concerns me. I now have a short starter but using a controlled push not a hard slap. I'm picking up some .530 Hornady balls too so a decision can be made for a mold size.

for me, that's waaay too big a ball for a .54 rifle. at least a .530 and lately a .526 is better yet. pure lead, too, no alloy.

no prelubed patches, use patch strips. get you a gaggle of different cotton or linen patch thicknesses - .010, .015, .018 for starters. lube the patch strips well with grease, not liquid, i use gato feo rubbed in and then melted in with a heat gun. keep the bp residue soft after a shot, too. i load greased patched balls into ball boards for fast loading, as well. lotsa things to try out .....

[rfd]

the rifle, it's ignition, it's barrel length and width across the flats, it's ROT and bore and groove diameters, and how the grooves are cut, all play roles in how the gun wants to be loaded and how she'll perform for ya. begin thinking: smaller balls and thicker patch strips.

[indian joe]

I've shot the gun with .535 Hornady balls and old prelubed patches. I didn't have a short starter and they were tight enough. The deforming of the balls concerns me. I now have a short starter but using a controlled push not a hard slap. I'm picking up some .530 Hornady balls too so a decision can be made for a mold size.

Bob
if deforming balls is a concern ? fit the end of your short starter and the end of your ramrod so its neat to the shape of the ball will help a lot - I really believe the value of tight combinations has been way overstated for a long time - and how much of that tight combination is fouling anyway ? I started both my CVA 54's with 530 ball and a calico patch - easy loading - the calico wouldnt stand a real heavy charge (120grain FF) so I used to put down a one inch calico backer patch on the powder then the patched ball (that was a good recipe for setting grass fires on the range but it shot good) - after about 1000 I switched up to pillow ticking on the ball, dropped the charge a bit, dropped the backer patch - coulda done that sooner - If I shot that barrel enough - next move would be 535 and calico. I dont like greasy lubes on the range - reckon moose milk works better for target shooting - but if you gonna carry a loaded rifle for hunting - yeah find a greasy lube that works for a few shots.
Have had this old rhyme kicking around in my head for many years - "If you gonna killem dead, ram the powder not the lead" - dunno where that came from - but there has been a little work done on it recently with blackmz powder and interesting results surfaced. The main thing is have fun sorting this out.

[waksupi]

If you are shooting bench rest, the ultra tight loads MIGHT help. For off hand shooting, most people can't hold well enough to take advantage of the accuracy given with an easily loaded patch and ball. My guns load easy, and if I can hold steady, they go pretty much in the same hole.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

With that lyman, I wouldnt use anything less than .018 patch with a .530" round bal.

In my Traditions, all of them, I use a .020" Bridgers best patch with a .490" round ball. Nice and snug and amazing accuracy.

[rfd]

WITH a lyman-investarms trad ml i'd start with a .530 ball and a well greased .010" cotton-linen patch strip (cut off at the muzzle, no pre-cut patch), then .015", then .018" and test at 25 yards to 50 yards, both off a bench and offhand. you might try a .526 ball and .015" to .020" patching as well. there's a winner or two in there for sure. have fun. try also with and without between shot fouling control.

[Canuck Bob]

I wrote this up on a different thread meant for here. The following is a copy paste.

I read a report on here of dramatic thickness change from washing the patch cloth, a problem?
Also, is it best to use a micrometer or calipers to measure cloth?

Thanks to everyone, this whole patch, ball, and patch lube combo business seems like a voodoo recipe!

No doubt the amount of shooting to get a fairly tuned load will be a lot of fun and that is always a good thing.

The initial plan is learn how to make the Deerstalker go bang most often. This includes knapped english flints, 1/16" flash hole, Goex 4F and 3F, and some lock shimming. So far the flint strike point has moved from the bottom of the frizzen to the middle using a thick leather shim, separate leather wrap, and bevel down. The flint sparks are white but not to abundant. One thing for sure the frizzen is sticky, best description for me, and needs smoothing. The cock spring is stout but swings smoothly.

For loading the start is 40 gr 3f with a max at were the accuracy goes south or 70 gr, whichever is first. I don't hunt so max is about range rather than power. Diluted Ballistol dried on the patch and wiping every shot or two.

[rfd]

everything will depend on yer goal(s) with yer trad ml. the gamut of thinking will run from - the 18th century where fast reloads and sure offhand ignitions for 25 to 50 yard shots matter more than moa accuracy to 75 yards and beyond - or the 21st century where range shooting off a bench out to 75 yards or more has become more in vogue ... or maybe something in between the two. lotta gear and component factors to consider as well. spending the time, and loot, to sort it all out is one way to approach it all, and better than the opinions of those who've found the gear, components and processes that work for .... them, not necessarily you/us.

[Canuck Bob]

rfd, good input. I got health problems up the wazoo. My goals are simple, bench the rifle to develop a good load, no moa nonsense. Then work on my offhand accuracy. The standard is 50 yard bench groups the same as offhand. Reality is to not embarrass myself! My centerfire target is tight offhand groups at 100 meters.

I shoot peep sights almost exclusively. I'm working on tightening up my vision and sight picture after multiple eye surgery for cataracts and steroid damage brought on by chemo. My Deerstalker has the Lyman 57 and any rifle will have a tang aperture of some sort, simply required. I use hunting standards, with my Winnie 32 Special I want 8" pie plate at 200 meters offhand every chance, with this Lyman same pie plate at 100 meters but the real focus will be fifty meters.

I always liked the old joke about the hunter bragging about his 450 yard deer kill in camp. The old farmer looked a little perplexed and asked," what's wrong couldn't you sneak up a little closer than that?"

Success is quite a challenge. However missing the mark won't be from lack of trying.

[indian joe]

I wrote this up on a different thread meant for here. The following is a copy paste.

I read a report on here of dramatic thickness change from washing the patch cloth, a problem?
Also, is it best to use a micrometer or calipers to measure cloth?

Bob - ALWAYS wash your patch material before you use it, the industry "sizes" material for sale so it feels fuller - size is some kind of goo like maybe walpaper glue - I dunno but they are coating it with gunk which you need to wash out so you not putting it in your barrel.

I never use a caliper but I had forty years as a professional woolclasser can tell by feel whats what with a piece of rag!

Thanks to everyone, this whole patch, ball, and patch lube combo business seems like a voodoo recipe!
Nah! its simple !!

No doubt the amount of shooting to get a fairly tuned load will be a lot of fun and that is always a good thing.

The initial plan is learn how to make the Deerstalker go bang most often. This includes knapped english flints, 1/16" flash hole, Goex 4F and 3F, and some lock shimming. So far the flint strike point has moved from the bottom of the frizzen to the middle using a thick leather shim, separate leather wrap, and bevel down. The flint sparks are white but not to abundant. One thing for sure the frizzen is sticky, best description for me, and needs smoothing. The cock spring is stout but swings smoothly.

For loading the start is 40 gr 3f with a max at were the accuracy goes south or 70 gr, whichever is first. I don't hunt so max is about range rather than power. Diluted Ballistol dried on the patch and wiping every shot or two.

Once you get the other stuff figured out try a wet (damp) patch at the range - should be able to shoot a days matches without wiping once - and without sacrificing accuracy - theres a challenge for ya (I like to see just a little liquid ooze from the patch material as I seat the ball with my short starter - )

[reivertom]

I have found that you can have too much of a good thing by making your patch/ball combo so tight it is really had to load, and balls get stuck a lot if the bore isn't pretty clean. Too loose is no good either, because you lose gas around it, and the ball can leave the bore in an erratic pattern. There is no substitute for shooting and trying new combos until you find one that works. I like a combo that gives decent accuracy as well as relatively easy loading. I still need a short starter, but once started, I can shove the ball to the seat with just steady pressure on the ramrod. I still need to swab the bore when it starts getting hard to seat the ball. The frequency differs depending on the brand of powder and the charge I'm using, but the average is after several shots.

[rfd]

typically, a smaller ball and well greased patch can be a very good combination with the typical .012 grooves for patched balls ... better yet if the grooves are radius rather than flat. i had a .50 barrel reamed to .54 with a 1:56 ROT and radius grooves - a please to load with a .526 ball and .015 greased patching. i doubt there's a patched ball load that seals well, if at all.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Just finished sighting in my friends GPR .54cal. .530" round ball, .020" patch and 70gr Pyrodex P. No issues loading or reloading on a fouled bore. Scrub the bores good, they come rough from the factory.

[Canuck Bob]

Wow, this forum is so helpful but this muzzleloading group is something else. I'm off to the range this week to shoot my rifle. This thread will help to find a decent simple loading low power load and then shooting that load to properly break in the rifle barrel. I'm a believer in it taking a lot of shooting to reveal a barrels true potential. Then a guy can settle down and really tune up a load or two. Thanks

[bedbugbilly]

Lots of good input and for me, I still go back to the individual rifle and what works best. I've never been a fan of tight patching that required a gorilla to get it to the breech - I pretty much have always used what rfd talks about - sometimes going to a smaller ball and thicker patch as I want to load with a ramrod or range rod and not have to "bang" it down. In the end, it's going to depend on what your rifle likes best if you do your job . . . and I'm not being smart when I say that. No load is going to be accurate if you can't hold steady . . . or in the case of many flint shooters . . . if you don't overcome the tendency to "flinch".

Years ago, when I was going to Friendship on a regular basis, I used to watch a guy n the offhand line. He had a custom built half stock percussion rifle -it was a nice looking rifle too. Anyway, I would watch him load and it always made me shake my head. He was using such a tight combination that he had to hammer the short starter with a wood mallet to get it in the bore .. . and then he switched to a brass rod and whacked it with the mallet all the way to the breech. After a couple of years of watching him, I got in to a conversation with him and asked about his tight loads. He told me that a tight load ws the ONLY WAY to load a muzzleloader. I listened patiently and then asked how his scores were . . . he showed me a 25 yard target he had just shot and I'm sorry, it wasn't that good. I said nothing but thanked him of the information he'd given me. IIRC, it was a .40 or a .45 cal rifle. What I couldn't understand was how he could whack on a soft lead round ball all the way down the barrel and then expect it to be round?

I had a smoothbore that I started out using a ball .010 smaller than the bore with a greased pillow ticking patch. Now granted, it was a smoothbore so figure that in. I was not having much luck at all at 25 yards - all over the place. I switched to a smaller ball with the same patch, it loaded easily down the bore (I spit patch between shots) and I couldn't believe the difference in how it shot. My hits tightened up and the only thing I had changed was to go to a ball that was .005 smaller - same patch - same powder load.

The only way you're going to know is to try different patch thicknesses and different ball sizes - and be consistent with the loads each time. There are so many factors that enter in to it . . . humidity and effect on fouling, wiping or not wiping between shots, consistency in getting the ball/patch seated and of course, the individual rifle. I have a flint LGPR in 50 that I bought off or rfd - a nice shooter for me. I can have a LGPR, you can have the identical rifle and another friend can have the same rifle - but just because they are the same rifle does not mean they will shoot the same. One may have a barrel run at the beginning of the production run, one have a barrel from the middle of the production run and the third from the end of the production run. Tool wear can make a big difference in the end product and how it shoots. No different than tool wear on cutting the throats of a revolver cylinder - Ruger is a good example of that as if IIRC, they ream with three different reamers at one time - I have a New Vaquero that proves it.

Good luck with your project and it will be interesting to hear of what you come up with.

[rfd]

right on, BBB! 220480

experiment ... Experiment ... EXPERIMENT!

[hpdrifter]

If you're young and have acute vision and target shooting tight loads may be beneficial. If for hunting, there is no real need for them, IMOO.

With my eyesight and open sights, I keep it "snug" and still get a couple of inches at 50 to 60 yards, entirely accurate enough for my hunting needs. The only reason I shoot targets is for some fun and practice. If you expect more than that at longer range, you may need to tighten it up a bit.

[Maven]

"What is the difference in the rifle loads inherent accuracy between competition tight and a tuned load that is easier to load? Are there any tricks to accuracy potential and easy loading?" ...Canuck Bob

There can be quite a difference, but you won't know until you test various combinations (from a rest) at say, 25- and then 50 yd., changing only 1 variable at a time, which I assume would be patch thickness. Btw, several months ago while on a woods walk, I discovered the .492" RB + .021" patch combination was way too tight* as I could barely start and seat the ball and didn't want to hold up everyone else. Having no other patch material except 100% white cotton flannel for cleaning (it was markedly thinner than my normal patching), I had no choice but to use it or go home. I opted for the former and had no problem with accuracy or blown patches + loading was exceptionally easy. Would I recommend this? No, but woods walk targets are not generally tiny and it was good enough for them. As rfd mentioned, you need to experiment to determine which works best for you, recognizing, there's a bit of a compromise between ease of loading and accuracy.


*Lyman Great Plains, .50cal., 1:60 twist

[rfd]

... there's a bit of a compromise between ease of loading and accuracy.


paul, as usual, is right on the money. 220677

[Maven]

Thanks for the kind words, Rob!