BP bullet shapes

[Knarley]

I did not want to hijack the thread on speed and long range so I figure I'd ask separately. The thread which is very interesting, and a "bit" over my head has me wondering about what I'm shooting, as far as projectile is. I don't have a stable of custom moulds, I only have a few off the shelf ones.
I have 2 Lyman moulds, #1 is a 457125 500 gr. round nose, the #2 would be a #457132 535gr. Postell. And the oldest mould is a LEE 459-500-3R which is a 500 gr. Pointed Round Nose. What can you tell me about these? I'd really appreciate some input, besides they are junk and start over.;-)

[Don McDowell]

The postel is a good bullet, and can work well to 1000yds, but works particularly well at midrange and silhouette. The Lyman government bullet will do the same as the postel ,but likely require a few more minutes of elevation. The Lee 5003r shoots ok to a couple hundred yards, after that it's a **** shoot.

[sharpsguy]

Don pretty well sums it up. The Govt. bullet is a better hunting bullet than the Postell, but the Postell has a bit of an advantage when you get waaay out there.

[Knarley]

So is the LEE too pointy, or have too much nose? Just wondering why it isn't all that good. I'm not trying to argue, and I'm not bound and determined to use it. Just trying to learn a little here.
Thanks guys,
KB

[Don McDowell]

I think the 3 wide lube grooves on that Lee bullet put to much of the weight in the nose of it. It shoots well to 200, but after that it gets into trouble if there's any wind to speak of.

[rfd]

i found the lee 500-3r not a good design for 200 yds and out, at least for me ... and yes, too much pointed nose methinks.

if the mould is good, those lyman bullet shapes are both classics and quite worthy, IMO.

tailor the cartridge and bullet to the task.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

i have no experience with the lee bullet, but it sounds like there is a serious stability issue with it.
stability problens manifest themselves in several ways.
the bullet fails to reach the target, and accuracy diminishes rapidly as range increases.
wind shear will take advantage of this and put the final nail in the coffin.
generally a heavy in front bullet will be more stable in the same twist than a heavy to the rear one.
this is how a minie and a rifled slug work.
so if such a bullet is showing instability there are 2 potentials. one is seriously bad airflow reducing dynamic stability, and the other is something causing the centre of mass to be off the axis of the bore.
bending noses can do this.
interestingly the old govt bullet remained stable to the extreme range it could be fired to.
the sandy hook tests proved this and you can google that, with pictures of rods stuck in bullet holes in the ground at some amazing angles.
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

i have no experience with the lee bullet, but it sounds like there is a serious stability issue with it.
stability problens manifest themselves in several ways.
the bullet fails to reach the target, and accuracy diminishes rapidly as range increases.
wind shear will take advantage of this and put the final nail in the coffin.
generally a heavy in front bullet will be more stable in the same twist than a heavy to the rear one.
this is how a minie and a rifled slug work.
so if such a bullet is showing instability there are 2 potentials. one is seriously bad airflow reducing dynamic stability, and the other is something causing the centre of mass to be off the axis of the bore.
bending noses can do this.
interestingly the old govt bullet remained stable to the extreme range it could be fired to.
the sandy hook tests proved this and you can google that, with pictures of rods stuck in bullet holes in the ground at some amazing angles.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
I was an early fan of the LEE 500-3-R - I wanted a mold that would shoot a decent string without cleaning between shots and didnt need fooling around with lube cookies under it - had been frustrated in that with several roundnose and a postell mold - fouling out after three or four shots - so when I saw that first LEE mold at a shoot I grabbed it - first thing that happened I took a good 100yards off my elevation setting with the same powder charge -- at that point almost everybody involved in longrange was shooting blunt nose boolits and cleaning between shots as a necessity. I liked the mold and bought another to speed up casting (my son shoots a roller in 45/70 as well) - the LEE mold would get hot pretty easy - well - first casting session and the two molds were making different boolits - the base band on one was much longer thn the other and weight was maybe ten grains different - I probably could have milled one of them and fixed it but went ahead and just sorted the boolits - these for the sharps those for the roller. Both these molds dropped boolits of good diameter.
Then the company updated the mold to newer style (much improved the location pins and etc) so I ordered a double cavity one of those - that mold was way out of spec - 20 grains lighter again and way small - boolits dropping out at 453 !!! - The company offered replacement but freight from downunder would have ate any benefit so I elected to keep the hardware and salvage handles out of it - left it a year and ordered again - by that time the problem was fixed and the new mold is in spec - but they have streamlined the nose some more - its a more racy looking boolit than the first two molds were and I wonder in light of this discussion maybe its too much of a good thing. Along the way there was a lot of negative stuff on forums and etc about that boolit design - most of which I ignored because I thought mine was doing ok (anytime I do my bit that rifle hits where its sposed to) -
heres a few comments / questions - (from a novice middle ranger - 500yards a couple times a year and maybe 700 once in a blue moon)
1)I have shot a good number of those big slugs and never seen one make anything but a clean neat round hole in the target - wouldnt there be ugly holes if there was stability issues?
2) I would bet London to a Brick that if that exact same mold came from a custom maker with a $250 price tag there would be a whole lot LESS adverse comment about it (not saying some or any one of these guys are wrong - just making a comment on how human nature works)
3) LUBE!!! if you dont get those big lube grooves chock full evenly all round that boolit - its not gonna shoot as well as it otherwise should.
4) when I lined up at my first longrange comp in a few years - lo and behold - half the crew is shooting boolits that look a lot like my old LEE 3 R - I havent run the calipers over them but the money boolit dont look all that diferent to what I shoot ? That pointy nose style has got kind of popular - whats the deal with that - just a fad or what?
5)There is a video on utube of a feller shooting the LEE at 1500?yards - I thought he was doin ok - but then ok by me might be **** for you blokes too - have you seen that one and whats your call on it?

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
do i detect a man from down under?
that bullet seems to have people who love it and people who hate it and nothing in between.
like i said, i have never tried it.
if it works that is a good thing and if you are happy with it go forth and enjoy.
the true money nose is not that pointy, having an meplat of 50 to 55% calibre diameter, and an ogive about 1.6 calibres long.
some of the modern knockoffs look more like a semi spitzer, and are money in name only.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Edward]

Bruce
I was an early fan of the LEE 500-3-R - I wanted a mold that would shoot a decent string without cleaning between shots and didnt need fooling around with lube cookies under it - had been frustrated in that with several roundnose and a postell mold - fouling out after three or four shots - so when I saw that first LEE mold at a shoot I grabbed it - first thing that happened I took a good 100yards off my elevation setting with the same powder charge -- at that point almost everybody involved in longrange was shooting blunt nose boolits and cleaning between shots as a necessity. I liked the mold and bought another to speed up casting (my son shoots a roller in 45/70 as well) - the LEE mold would get hot pretty easy - well - first casting session and the two molds were making different boolits - the base band on one was much longer thn the other and weight was maybe ten grains different - I probably could have milled one of them and fixed it but went ahead and just sorted the boolits - these for the sharps those for the roller. Both these molds dropped boolits of good diameter.
Then the company updated the mold to newer style (much improved the location pins and etc) so I ordered a double cavity one of those - that mold was way out of spec - 20 grains lighter again and way small - boolits dropping out at 453 !!! - The company offered replacement but freight from downunder would have ate any benefit so I elected to keep the hardware and salvage handles out of it - left it a year and ordered again - by that time the problem was fixed and the new mold is in spec - but they have streamlined the nose some more - its a more racy looking boolit than the first two molds were and I wonder in light of this discussion maybe its too much of a good thing. Along the way there was a lot of negative stuff on forums and etc about that boolit design - most of which I ignored because I thought mine was doing ok (anytime I do my bit that rifle hits where its sposed to) -
heres a few comments / questions - (from a novice middle ranger - 500yards a couple times a year and maybe 700 once in a blue moon)
1)I have shot a good number of those big slugs and never seen one make anything but a clean neat round hole in the target - wouldnt there be ugly holes if there was stability issues?
2) I would bet London to a Brick that if that exact same mold came from a custom maker with a $250 price tag there would be a whole lot LESS adverse comment about it (not saying some or any one of these guys are wrong - just making a comment on how human nature works)
3) LUBE!!! if you dont get those big lube grooves chock full evenly all round that boolit - its not gonna shoot as well as it otherwise should.
4) when I lined up at my first longrange comp in a few years - lo and behold - half the crew is shooting boolits that look a lot like my old LEE 3 R - I havent run the calipers over them but the money boolit dont look all that diferent to what I shoot ? That pointy nose style has got kind of popular - whats the deal with that - just a fad or what?
5)There is a video on utube of a feller shooting the LEE at 1500?yards - I thought he was doin ok - but then ok by me might be **** for you blokes too - have you seen that one and whats your call on it? I"ve watched that video several times and he proved that boolit arrived stable everytime he sent one off ,which was the point . Have that mold myself ,so when I fail to hit my target that"s another excuse I can"t use [smilie=b:

[Don McDowell]

Some folks confuse bullet stability with a key holing bullet. If you've been around long range shooting enough, and you have good optics , you'll see a bullet that has lost stability going towards the target looking like it's riding a spiral staircase.
That Lee bullet will not hold a group past 300 yards if there's any wind at all, due to it's loosing stability. Proved it many many times to my own trials and tribulations several years ago. When Lee first brought that bullet out several silhouette shooters jumped on it and found out it was pretty costly to even buy a pig with it, and they couldn't even begin to lay down rams.
The Lyman postel and the Saeco 645 bullet are both very good bullets for the 45-70 from production moulds.
Another good bullet out to 800 yards is the RCBS 82084 bullet, but it starts to fall apart past that distance in the 45-70. I have not tried it in either the 45-90 or 45-110.

[Gunlaker]

Indian Joe you are probably right that if the bullet came from a custom mold maker that people would like it more ;-). I probably fall into the group of people who think like that. When I first started casting I used mass produced molds. I do find that the custom molds will produce a more perfect bullet.

When I started shooting black powder rifles seriously I pretty much looked at what the most successful match shooters were using. For quite a while the various "money" bullets have been in the top 3 in most places. I know a few people use the prolate bullets which seem to shoot quite well. I have a couple of those.

I think I have seen the video that you guys are referring to. I don't think you can really draw any conclusions from it, as to whether that bullet is stable or not. A better test would be paper at 1000 yards so you can see if the holes are clean and circular.

I personally wouldn't choose that design for long range as I'd rather shoot a heavier, lower drag, bullet.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

That guy made another video using the same bullet and it had the same problem at 800 yards as those of us that have tried to campaign that bullet. One shot will be several feet to yards high, the next off to the left or right the next way low,, and so the story goes.
Another problem with that Lee bullet is the blocks, they don't have enough meat around them to keep from heating up and not warping when you sit down to cast enough bullets to do any good for going to a match. It's a fine bullet for the occasionally shooter that shoots maybe 50 rounds a month or so.

[17nut]

220308

[Knarley]

And here all along I was thinking oh, pointy nose= cuts thru air good. Oh, big grease groves=good. Looks cool= good.
That's why you are the masters, I am student.
KB

[indian joe]

joe,
do i detect a man from down under?
that bullet seems to have people who love it and people who hate it and nothing in between.
like i said, i have never tried it.
if it works that is a good thing and if you are happy with it go forth and enjoy.
the true money nose is not that pointy, having an meplat of 50 to 55% calibre diameter, and an ogive about 1.6 calibres long.
some of the modern knockoffs look more like a semi spitzer, and are money in name only.
keep safe,
bruce.

Yeah down under is right.

That 500 LEE mold has had serious issues as it evolved - and I am not talking about cutter wear either - somebody stuffed up seriously in equipment setup or subsequent operation of it - quite enough to make people hate it if they got one of the dodgy ones.

So it sounds like the true money design is closer to that early "Postell" I had - and my early LEE is quite different in shape than the later (your semi spitzer description fits) -- you gotta look for the difference but a more rounded profile to the point and a nice curve to it rather than the more straight spitzer profile - i reckon it would resist setback more.

I am waiting on some decent weather to test this boolit in my uberti 76 and planning to do that at increments from 200 to 600 - am happy with the way it shoots from my sharps at 500 but have not done the in between ranges - so Ill be on the lopkout for any midrange nonsense - if my shoulder holds up ok might also shoot the sharps in the same test - anything interesting I will post. I have relegated myself to plinker status in this game as I am not prepared to stump up the 6K it would take to make me fully competitive - too much other fun stuff going on in he shooting sphere is most of that.
Thanks for your replies
Joe

[BRUCE MOULDS]

17 nut,
that graph just shows how drag, most if it on the nose varies quite quickly before during and after the transonic zone.
many bullets just cannot cope with that and wobble or tumble fully.
the centre of mass remains the same, but the centre of pressure muves back, and the forward again, but not fully forward.
combine this with shockwaves flying off many parts of the bullet from nose to grease grooves during this and it is wonder any bullet can do anything.
you can virtuall use a mirror image of that graph to represent what happens to b.c. in the same zone.
higher drag = lower b.c. and vice versa.
if a guy is using the lee bullet o.k. good luck to him, but there are much better shapes out there.
its shape is far more suited to supersonic flight.
as chris says, the true test is on paper at all ranges likely to be used, against a proven performer.
you can compare group size and vert quantitively.
joe,
your ability to shoot dirty with that bullet interests me.
please tell more.
where i live in oz i have designed and bought moulds for shooting dirty experiments, but am yet to find one that will function in the drier months with all sorts of lubes.
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

17 nut,
that graph just shows how drag, most if it on the nose varies quite quickly before during and after the transonic zone.
many bullets just cannot cope with that and wobble or tumble fully.
the centre of mass remains the same, but the centre of pressure muves back, and the forward again, but not fully forward.
combine this with shockwaves flying off many parts of the bullet from nose to grease grooves during this and it is wonder any bullet can do anything.
you can virtuall use a mirror image of that graph to represent what happens to b.c. in the same zone.
higher drag = lower b.c. and vice versa.
if a guy is using the lee bullet o.k. good luck to him, but there are much better shapes out there.
its shape is far more suited to supersonic flight.
as chris says, the true test is on paper at all ranges likely to be used, against a proven performer.
you can compare group size and vert quantitively.
joe,
your ability to shoot dirty with that bullet interests me.
please tell more.
where i live in oz i have designed and bought moulds for shooting dirty experiments, but am yet to find one that will function in the drier months with all sorts of lubes.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
I am in the southern wheat belt of NSW, 17 inch rainfall, (sometimes! - we have had 12 inches since end of october 2016!!)
Shooting dirty - I been pretty darn stubborn about this - not gonna argue with anyone that you might get a bit better target cleaning between shots BUT at the same time we should be able to shoot a decent string without fouling out and /or leading up the bore and we should be able to do it and maintain reasonable accuracy (good enough for hunting at the least). Not asking a whole lot - the old timers were able to do it (or were they?)
1) We need enough (suitable) lube to keep the fouling soft as we shoot - if the boolit cant carry it then we got to fool around with lube cookies and extra wads - takes up good powder space and is a PITA at the loading bench. I ruled that out as something the old timers would not have messed with.
2) cleanest burning powder we can get -- I have this licked - probably said too much about it already on this forum - in Aus we have the choice of Wano or Swiss or ......
I dont rate Wano clean enough and am too tight to pay for Swiss so ........I got some willow trees on the dam bank - plan "B" on powder
5 grains of 4227 under the black charge will take care of dirty powder but its not allowed in some matches (all matches - I dont know?)
I had no luck with shooting my sharps dirty until I got both of these in place. I had a CBE postell mold I sold - a LEE 457-450 (that one was a neat bore rider) a couple others and sample boolits from mates ... three - four - five shots = fouled out and lead in the bore - son and I shot 25 on the trot with it at Hillend with the LEE and it cleaned slick and easy.
In my uberti 1876 I am shooting the LEE 405HB (to get those same big lube grooves!) have taken the hollow base out of it and flattened the nose a bit (milled it some) - shot the 76 at our loal club last weekend 40 rounds in strings of 3, 4, or 5 - I had made a tang sight for it and messing round looking for settings - all shot at 50yards - the shooting is nothing special here, just rested my elbows on the bench standing up - but it got better NOT worse as we progressed - have posted a pic of that target, the last ten went in a nice group and the gun cleaned quick and easy - no sign of leading. Had not bore sighted this at all just screwed the sight on and went shooting (had two leftover boxes of fireform rounds to use up) I mucked around a fair bit here holding off with a circle front sight until I got the hang of it but at the end 8 of the last ten cut - strung a little vertical because of the magazine - blow tube between each string of shots but not between individual rounds - that Uberti has a pretty nice bore .
So both these guns is just good clean powder, plenty of lube, (I use beeswax and neatsfoot oil), milk carton wad over the powder, weighed charges, blow tube when and where required ------nuthin fancy here! - I think you have to use your noggin a bit with a blow tube - can easily do too much. Both 28 inch barrels helps too.

220330

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
does nick harvey still live at hillend?
he might not even be alive now.
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

joe,
does nick harvey still live at hillend?
he might not even be alive now.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
never met him and only been doing Hillend spasmodically - forum quotes had him still alive in 2017 but 86 yrs old then - that type of country keeps people alive a long time if they keep active in it (and he does/did by all accounts)

[indian joe]

joe,
does nick harvey still live at hillend?
he might not even be alive now.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
400yrd target from this morning (with the 500 LEE) - 4 shot group is ok for me - spread is about on my 2MOA standard - but a little crosswind left to right and I lost the fifth shot about a foot further right - thought my hold was good - this the kind of thing you are talkin about? (have a mate gonna bring me a handfull of lyman postell tomorrow - will give me some comparison) - shot with 1876 Uberti and 1 blow between shots.
220459

[John Boy]

I've shot many of my 45-70 molds to 1000 yds and consider these from excellent to average in descending order for accuracy
1* PJ Creedmoor - Theodore Mini Groove - RCBS 82084
2* Lyman 457123 Postell
3* Lyman 457667
4* Ideal 457125
5* Ideal 457124
6* Lee 457-500-3R

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
here are some wind deflection figures for my 40/72.wind square on (90 degrees). also called full value.
5mph - 3.2 moa
10 mph - 6.5 moa
15 mph - 9.5 moa
20 mph - 12.5 moa
25 mph - 16 moa
1 moa approx 4" at 400 yds.
these figures are approximate but close.
1, 5, 7, and 11 o'clock you halve these numbers for the same wind speed.
2, 4 , 8 and 10 o'clock is 3/4 to 7/8 of full value.
your group contains too few shots to really give any meaningful stats.
personally i would say that 2 moa is quite good for an 1876, and not bad if you did it all the time with a single shot target rifle in reasonable conditions.
i prefer to shoot groups on about a consistent 5 moa full condition, as there is less light bending and better aiming.
the target appears more near more often then to where it really is, giving potentially better groups.
when the wind blows from the left, th target image moves a little to the right but not much.
a bit like it goes upward on a boil but less.
there are so many things to take into account that it is not easy, but that is the satisfaction when you get it.
if you can use windflags, it helps to shoot on a condition if possible.
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

joe,
here are some wind deflection figures for my 40/72.wind square on (90 degrees). also called full value.
5mph - 3.2 moa
10 mph - 6.5 moa
15 mph - 9.5 moa
20 mph - 12.5 moa
25 mph - 16 moa
1 moa approx 4" at 400 yds.
these figures are approximate but close.
1, 5, 7, and 11 o'clock you halve these numbers for the same wind speed.
2, 4 , 8 and 10 o'clock is 3/4 to 7/8 of full value.
your group contains too few shots to really give any meaningful stats.
personally i would say that 2 moa is quite good for an 1876, and not bad if you did it all the time with a single shot target rifle in reasonable conditions.
i prefer to shoot groups on about a consistent 5 moa full condition, as there is less light bending and better aiming.
the target appears more near more often then to where it really is, giving potentially better groups.
when the wind blows from the left, th target image moves a little to the right but not much.
a bit like it goes upward on a boil but less.
there are so many things to take into account that it is not easy, but that is the satisfaction when you get it.
if you can use windflags, it helps to shoot on a condition if possible.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
Thanks for the info
I was hesitant about shooting heavy boolits in my 76 but a feller posted pictures of a winchester advert for 450 grain 90 grain powder longrange loads from back in the old days so I figured if an original would take that safely my uberti should eat it - I had made a couple little experiments with the LEE boolit lathe turned back to about 390 grains (minus the bottom driving band and one lube groove) - loaded out on the lands that looked to shoot nice - one thing lead to another and here we are . The uberti is fun - at 8lb the sharps is not - thats a winter project.
2 MOA was my target - thats about the best my eyesight will do, if everything else is in tune - maybe the eyes are less of a hindrance than I think - learn to use what ya got hey!
I agree that I need more lead on target to draw serious conclusions but its a start. Am shooting at home so still figuring out a ""range"" that works - 500 yards with clear view of the target and a safe backdrop is not as easy as I imagined.
Anyway I appreciate the help.

[indian joe]

joe,

personally i would say that 2 moa is quite good for an 1876, and not bad if you did it all the time with a single shot target rifle in reasonable conditions.
i prefer to shoot groups on about a consistent 5 moa full condition, as there is less light bending and better aiming.
the target appears more near more often then to where it really is, giving potentially better groups.
when the wind blows from the left, th target image moves a little to the right but not much.
a bit like it goes upward on a boil but less.
there are so many things to take into account that it is not easy, but that is the satisfaction when you get it.
if you can use windflags, it helps to shoot on a condition if possible.
keep safe,
bruce.


Bruce
What do you think of the CBE postell mould ? Is it a worthwhile contender for a 45/70 (I can bring myself to clean between shots if that is whats needed [smilie=b:)
cheers
Joe

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
the best target accuracy comes from absolutely consistent barrel condition, and that comes from a wiping regime that needs to be established.
this of course does not suit hunting or certain disciplines.
things to take into account re any bullet are your twist, chamber and barrel dimensions, and does it function in the rifle mechanism.
that said, the postell design was a good one in the day, and so still should be.
looking at modern versions of it, compared to old ones, there seems to be some prostitution of the original design.
as best as i can see from pictures, the old ones had a nose shape thatstarted to move away from contact with the barrel straight away.
the nose base was less than bore diameter to allow chambering dirty.
this was good for that purpose, but some had problems with the nose being unsupported and going off centre on firing.
guys either hated it or loved it.
it might well have been designed for use in 45/70, and if not the 45/80, which had a 2.4" case.
modern versions seem to have gone for a bore riding nose, which will sooner or later give leading as they bump into the rifling.
the cbe mould looks like the old ones in shape, but it is hard to tell without seeing its bullets in the flesh, and also measuring them.
best bullets come from a mould which casts to the required size.
sizing bullets is a good way to get off balance bullets from bending etc.
best accuracy comes from a bullet cast to the size that slides into fired cases.
keep safe,
bruce.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
just for interest, what chamber is that 1876?
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

joe,
just for interest, what chamber is that 1876?
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce - its not the so called Uberti chamber
Dimensions below as near as I can measure
45/75 1918 winchester drawing, mine
Rim Thickness 58-62 thou 66-68
Rim to start of shoulder .970 .982
Rim to start of neck 1.270 1.282
Case OAL 1.890 1.790 (short brass) 1.950 (long brass)
Body Diameter at base .562-564 .558
Body diameter at shoulder .552 .554
Neck inside fired case .459
Neck outside fired case .483
My brass will seat a 405 grain solid to correct functional OAL without the base protruding into powder space (just) the "Uberti chamber" will not do that
I cut a bunch of brass short in order to crimp correctly for smokeless loading and then lost most of another tenth in fire forming (had thought the brass would move forwards as the shoulder formed but instead it shrunk) - The long brass above is once fired and I am aiming to get some cut to full chamber length if I can do that - I shot 40 of these the other day and thought they went better than my shorter brass that is well fire formed - dont know - just a hunch.
I have not shot smokeless in this rifle yet and at this point wonder if I ever will - did use some duplex (5 grains of 4227) at the start to utilise some ditrty burning chinese powder.
Have just cracked 1500fps a couple of times with 70 grains of FFF under the 335 grain boolit - 75 grains of good powder in this case would be a smokin good load if it shot straight.
Have not sized a fired case for this rifle yet - not neck sized even - just put a light crimp on to hold the boolit in place

[john.k]

mention of the Lee 405 HB...is the shape any good for say 500yds?..I was planning to get another and cut out the grooves to make a paper patch bullet for a 577/450.Alex Henry.

[indian joe]

mention of the Lee 405 HB...is the shape any good for say 500yds?..I was planning to get another and cut out the grooves to make a paper patch bullet for a 577/450.Alex Henry.

John I modified mine - milled a bit off the nose to make it safer in the tube magazine and then took out the hollow base - came back neat at 405 grains - the Uberti 76 seems to like it but I have not shot past 200yards with that boolit. With the nose left as is/was and the grooves filled in it would gettin up in weight - worth a try anyway !?

[rfd]

conjecture and testing/trialling is one thing, but there are already known good long range bullet moulds that make the selection process lots easier. typically, the better and more consistent currently offered moulds will not be cheap, either.

for me, that lee hollow base is a dog for target accuracy and not worth messing around with unless it's for a trapdoor or lever gun for under 200 yards. in fact, the only .45 lee mould i've found some value in is their 340 grain flat nose greaser that i load with trail boss for the kids to shoot.

imho, the tom ellis accuratemolds aluminum moulds are excellent and cheap, and i use 3 of them for 200 to 500 yards with good accuracy and match success. and then there's the jim brannon BACO really long range money moulds - top shelf all the way, and not cheap.

[indian joe]

conjecture and testing/trialling is one thing, but there are already known good long range bullet moulds that make the selection process lots easier. typically, the better and more consistent currently offered moulds will not be cheap, either.

for me, that lee hollow base is a dog for target accuracy and not worth messing around with unless it's for a trapdoor or lever gun for under 200 yards. in fact, the only .45 lee mould i've found some value in is their 340 grain flat nose greaser that i load with trail boss for the kids to shoot.

imho, the tom ellis accuratemolds aluminum moulds are excellent and cheap, and i use 3 of them for 200 to 500 yards with good accuracy and match success. and then there's the jim brannon BACO really long range money moulds - top shelf all the way, and not cheap.

Interesting !!! I have several LEE molds and the one you pick is the one out of em all that I do not like ....... Bought it to use in the 76 with smokeless loads - wanted a different shape so I would never get my smokeless and black rounds mixed up - never went there - that 340 is dead set useless with blackpowder - the 405 HB is a good blackpowder boolit for hunting and general shorter range stuff - I think not many fellers would be able to outshoot that boolit with the issued barrel sights to 200 yards.
Aussies pay double plus and wait six weeks to two months for stuff you can order and have in your hand in a week - so its natural we will look to use what we got and to alter and innovate stuff in order to save a buck (that can even be fun when it works out) - if we could get prompt delivery and no hassles the price hurdle would be much less daunting - we have one custom mold maker here doing good work at reasonable price but there are limits
This is not a whine - just a little bit of an explanation why some of us fool around with stuff that is apparently beneath your dignity. :drinks:

[rfd]

Interesting !!! I have several LEE molds and the one you pick is the one out of em all that I do not like ....... Bought it to use in the 76 with smokeless loads - wanted a different shape so I would never get my smokeless and black rounds mixed up - never went there - that 340 is dead set useless with blackpowder - the 405 HB is a good blackpowder boolit for hunting and general shorter range stuff - I think not many fellers would be able to outshoot that boolit with the issued barrel sights to 200 yards.
Aussies pay double plus and wait six weeks to two months for stuff you can order and have in your hand in a week - so its natural we will look to use what we got and to alter and innovate stuff in order to save a buck (that can even be fun when it works out) - if we could get prompt delivery and no hassles the price hurdle would be much less daunting - we have one custom mold maker here doing good work at reasonable price but there are limits
This is not a whine - just a little bit of an explanation why some of us fool around with stuff that is apparently beneath your dignity. :drinks:

not at all "beneath my dignity", just stuff i've tried and has been either marginal or failed. it's all subjective stuff, for sure, and why it's important to sometimes see for yerself. and i do agree - the lee 340 is also a dog for me with a full bp load, but decent with trail boss at 50 to near 200 yards. for light and very accurate bp loads i look to the accuratemolds 45-405P with 60 grains of 1-1/2f and a 6 wad stack.

i hear ya on shipping from the states to oz. i've waited weeks and weeks for ball moulds to come from england. it is what it is, we all do the best we can.

[Lead pot]

There is no dignity decision when deciding a bullet mould when your a serious competitive shooter. If one will only punch holes through paper at 50 or 100 yards then most anything that will pass through the barrel will punch holes through the paper.
I look at it this way. Buying a low cost production mould is not saving money if it does not do what you expect for accuracy. The cost of the lead/tin/powder/primers you send down range trying to make that bullet hit soon adds to the cost of that mould and most generally that mould ends up in a drawer and you start looking for a replacement. Yes the custom moulds will run twice or three times to a over the counter mould but you will have that mould build that matches your rifling twist and profile you like.
I admit that I don't have the Lee moulds short of a round ball mould and that has not seen the light for many years but I see them on the tables at gun shows when I scan the tables and I call them leaverrights (leaver right there) because the way they are build and their small aluminum blocks that will over heat in short order.
Lee does have some very fine tools and I have and use them but their moulds are not one of them.

[rfd]

lee is also my go-to for most ball moulds.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

the first pre requisite for a long range shooter is to jettison all dignity.
if you don't, the targets will strip it off you in droves.
that is whatever bullet you use.
this is not a sport for the instant gratification mob.
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

not at all "beneath my dignity", just stuff i've tried and has been either marginal or failed. it's all subjective stuff, for sure, and why it's important to sometimes see for yerself. and i do agree - the lee 340 is also a dog for me with a full bp load, but decent with trail boss at 50 to near 200 yards. for light and very accurate bp loads i look to the accuratemolds 45-405P with 60 grains of 1-1/2f and a 6 wad stack.

i hear ya on shipping from the states to oz. i've waited weeks and weeks for ball moulds to come from england. it is what it is, we all do the best we can.

yah - (dignity) that was a poor choice of words there - but I bought ya a beer to make up fer it - I've been all over these forums (since you fellers popped my bubble on that LEE mold) searching for the magic boolit (mold) yeah even read that article said there werent any such thing - just when I think I got the right one picked out - up pops some dude says NAH!! that one dont work - you need this one here - get the money boolit - NO - get a snover - NO - get a postell - ??????????? The money boolit and Postell name tags have been hooked to so many different designs its difficult to find the realone anymore - I have some Lyman boolits to test but seriously looking at the Saeco 745 at this point.(if I buy a mold)

[Gunlaker]

Indian Joe, if you want to find out which bullets work well then I'd suggest looking at equipment lists for big matches, and see what the top three finishers are using. Often the advice you get on the internet will be quite different than what the match winners are using.

Of course the bullet needs to work well with your rifle's chamber and twist, but that's not too tricky to get sorted out as long as the chamber has reasonable dimensions.

Chris.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Lead pot;4373981]There is no dignity decision when deciding a bullet mould when your a serious competitive shooter. If one will only punch holes through paper at 50 or 100 yards then most anything that will pass through the barrel will punch holes through the paper.

hmm that all depends whether you want a splatter pattern or a decent group - some of those 100 yard 'punch holes through paper' fellers are just as serious competitive shooters as anyone else about the place

[rfd]

at least some of the off-the-shelf moulds by lee, lyman, rcbs, saeco, etc. can be out of round as this is the nature of industry production. i found that out with a lyman postell. having a custom mould built for you means that will be unlikely, and if so as you check yer first castings, you can deal direct with the mould maker.

[Lead pot]

But Rob even a 5 thousand out of round bullet will be perfectly round when it leaves the barrel, but it might wobble a bit going down range :)

[indian joe]

at least some of the off-the-shelf moulds by lee, lyman, rcbs, saeco, etc. can be out of round as this is the nature of industry production. i found that out with a lyman postell. having a custom mould built for you means that will be unlikely, and if so as you check yer first castings, you can deal direct with the mould maker.

Just checked a few boolits from my LEE 500-3R its average measurement is .4585 - nothing over .459 nor under .458
The 405 HB average measurement was .459 nothing under .4585 nor over .4595
So both of those were inside one thou out of round (surprised me)
This was with boolits already match weighed.
It seems to me that the problem (if there is one and that seems to be so) is either /or ....1) the deep lube grooves allowing distortion 2) the nose design is sensitive to wind .
I know there were crappy molds went out .....I had two of em - undersized by heaps .. and yes they might be difficult to cast consistently with because of the design - I would argue that, I have crook wrists and find iron or brass molds hard work where the alloy blocks light weight makes them easy to work with - but I have put all that aside because the molds I have are casting decent boolits with consistent weight and dimensions so it comes back simply to a design problem .....yes?
Now if I could just figure out how to monitor hits on my 500yard target with my mobile phone / tablet computer combo ..testing all this would be fun!

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
over on the bpcr forum under technical information, is an article by dan theodore that goes against all i believe.
he is extolling the virties of pointed bullets and stability and b.c. in our velocity range.
i believe he was shooting pointed bullets at raton creedmoor before he died, out of a fast twist 38/70.
it would be interesting to see where that would have led.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Monitoring hits with an cellphone, iPad etc is a pretty simple thing to do if you get ahold of one of the Caldwell target camera's.

[Lead pot]

Or use your phone with a hot spot and a laptop and do a face to face

[Don McDowell]

That might work if you're somplace that has cell service... but the target camera is relatively inexpensive, will give you group measurements etc..

[Gunlaker]

Don I'd forgotten about those target cameras. I've been thinking this morning of getting a gong built to emulate the 600 yard bull out to the 9 ring, but maybe that camera is a better investment?

What do think if it now that you've had it a while?

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

But Rob even a 5 thousand out of round bullet will be perfectly round when it leaves the barrel, but it might wobble a bit going down range :)

Kurt it's funny how many people you hear say that they don't worry too much about the bullets being a little out of round as they will bump up to be round. You are correct, there will almost certainly be some drag inducing wobble. There is nothing at all in the laws of physics that ensures that that bumped up, newly round, bullet will be dynamically balanced. It's pretty much a 100% certainty that it will not be :-)

Interestingly though, my two Shiloh's in .40-65 absolutely love the my Saeco #740 bullets out to 300 yards even though that mold does not produce bullets as perfectly round as my BACO molds will.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris when I go out on the range here, I take it along just like any other piece of equipment. It's a valuable tool. At 600 you don't need to use the receiver, the transmitter will have enough power to feed the picture. Beyond 600 the receiver is needed. It's just a handy thing to use anywhere from the muzzle to 1000 yards.
You can use a pallet covered with cardboard with a couple of 2 x4's for braces to hold it up right , or just set a couple of steel posts, and then a box of either the 600 yard targets or the centers, and off you go to the world of learning experience.

[Lead pot]

Kurt it's funny how many people you hear say that they don't worry too much about the bullets being a little out of round as they will bump up to be round. You are correct, there will almost certainly be some drag inducing wobble. There is nothing at all in the laws of physics that ensures that that bumped up, newly round, bullet will be dynamically balanced. It's pretty much a 100% certainty that it will not be :-)

Interestingly though, my two Shiloh's in .40-65 absolutely love the my Saeco #740 bullets out to 300 yards even though that mold does not produce bullets as perfectly round as my BACO molds will.

Chris.

the same thing happens when that bullet is run through a sizing die You cant compress lead, you just make it flow to a different place and this throws it out of balance at the high rpm these spin when they get pushed through the bore.

[indian joe]

Or use your phone with a hot spot and a laptop and do a face to face
more detail please! I have a phone with a hotspot and a laptop and cell reception - how do I set this up in the field - I want to shoot tomorrow this would be extremely helpful!

[Sawdust]

Kurt it's funny how many people you hear say that they don't worry too much about the bullets being a little out of round as they will bump up to be round. You are correct, there will almost certainly be some drag inducing wobble. There is nothing at all in the laws of physics that ensures that that bumped up, newly round, bullet will be dynamically balanced. It's pretty much a 100% certainty that it will not be :-)

Chris.

The driving band section will bump up to fit the bore, but the nose portion will still be out of round in relation to the driving bands. The bullet will be a camshaft.

[Chill Wills]

joe,
over on the bpcr forum under technical information, is an article by dan theodore that goes against all i believe.
he is extolling the virties of pointed bullets and stability and b.c. in our velocity range.
i believe he was shooting pointed bullets at raton creedmoor before he died, out of a fast twist 38/70.
it would be interesting to see where that would have led.
keep safe,
bruce.

I am not aware of this. Can you link this please. I would like to see if I get the same impression as you.
Thank you, CW

[indian joe]

I am not aware of this. Can you link this please. I would like to see if I get the same impression as you.
Thank you, CW

This might be the bit you are looking for ? I googled Dan Theodore bullet stability

Some findings that were a bit of a surprise might shed some light on this bullet stability issue. A very good example can be shown by relating what bullet holes looked like at 1,000 yards through the target using two different rifles and bullets. One rifle is a 10-twist 38-72 and the other is a 12-twist 38-70. The bullets in question are a 1.496” long grooveless G3 design that weighs 405 grains and the other is a 1.54” long spire point what weighs 373 grains. One would assume using current common wisdom that the 405-grain, 1.496” long bullet would be more stable out of the 12-twist barrel than the lighter, longer spire point. Not at all! The 1.496” long bullet produces quite elliptical holes through the target even at 800-yards. It shoots great out of the 10-twist barrel. That seems reasonable. But here is the kicker, the 1.54” long spire point that only weighs 373 grains will punch round holes at 1,000 yards when launched out of the 12-twist barrel. Go figure! So what is going on? My current understanding is that the CP for the spire point is much closer to the CG than that distance for the 1.496” long, 405-grain 3G bullet. This phenomenon has been seen with a number of other bullet designs, calibers and twists also.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

michael,
try www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm
if this does not take you to the page, on that site index is technical information.
go there, and look for a dan theodore article on bullet stability.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Gunlaker]

I agree Kurt, that's why I don't generally size bullets ( except that I do sometimes size PP bullets down 0.001" ).

Thanks for the info Don.

Bruce, I think the key to understanding what Dan called counter to common wisdom is simply that the concept of stability as a function of bullet length and barrel twist is only very approximate. These formulae that people have come up with are only functions to approximately fit some data, there is nothing fundamental about them.

Chris.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

chris,
i get what you say.
however i wonder if dan had shot that bullet every 100 of range out to 1000 what might have emerged.
my own experiments have shown that you can get a wobble at say 600 or 700, and then round holes again further out.
the distance where this happens is just about the line between transonic and true subsonic, or mach 0.8.
some nose shapes resist this better.
ways to increase b.c. include meplat diameter and ogive length and radius.
with our cast bullets, wa cannot have really pointy meplats because they are too hard to cast, and there is the added issue of releasing the boundary layer if we could.
ogive lengths cannot be much more than 1.5 calibres due to setback and the possibility of them bending as they slump.
transonic aircraft and missiles do not have sharp long pointy noses.
this is because it was discovered that airflow at those speeds was not smooth and regular on that shape.
among the preferred shapes is the ellipse, and something like the metford/money nose.
both economics and safety caused research into this.
certainly shortening the overturning moment will increase stability, and reducing pressure on the nose is an obvious way to do this.
but a bent nose will move the centre of mass from the physical axis and that will override all the gains.
the question remains open:veryconfu
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

LEE vs LYMAN

Well fellers heres this mornings effort
220928

ah ha you say !!!
this n proves two things (neither of which was the intention)(
1) ya better pay attention ALL OF THE TIME
2) me powder is gettin better as I go

so 6 shots with the LEE, one barrel warmer in the dirt - first at target is a good hit (my target is 10mm ply so I can hear em)
lets go to it - but hang on ????we getting dust in front of the target and no hit noise - theres a little tricky breeze up there and these guys on the forum have almost got me convinced that LEE boolit is a waste of time - I hear a hit on no 4 and that only reinforces their idea . Its a long drive over rough plowed ground to investigate so I went ahead with part two (continue shooting - look later) - the Lyman postell is gonna shoot straight but its gonna need some extra elevation so I screwed the sight up 38inches and shot one -----still in the dirt out front -- another yard up and we got a hit - goody!!!-- only got three left now so here they go - blowtube between shots - I can feel a little breeze trickin around down on the flat where I am - know it will be more at the target - but I didnt bother with a flag - what ya see is what I saw - four hits with the lyman postell strung sideways about 14 inches but nice vertical - theres two clear hits of that 500grain LEE absolutely dead sideways!! one in the main group and one up about a foot or so - another just clipped the bottom of the board if ya look close ........WTHeck.....is going on - yeah it might wobble some but clean as that sideways - nah!!!! .....think about this .....I take a walk around and find em about ten yards infront - there five boolit strikes on the hard ground right close together - woulda made a nice group no more than ten inches or so either way and further down is the lone strike from the first postell - I got that difference right - but - still puzzling - then the lightbulb - I used 2015 powder instead of 2017!!! hmmmmmpff.
So proved nothing really as far as testing that LEE boolit against the LYMAN - but the dang thing still seems to be shooting not too bad

[indian joe]

chris,
i get what you say.
however i wonder if dan had shot that bullet every 100 of range out to 1000 what might have emerged.
my own experiments have shown that you can get a wobble at say 600 or 700, and then round holes again further out.
the distance where this happens is just about the line between transonic and true subsonic, or mach 0.8.
some nose shapes resist this better.
ways to increase b.c. include meplat diameter and ogive length and radius.
with our cast bullets, wa cannot have really pointy meplats because they are too hard to cast, and there is the added issue of releasing the boundary layer if we could.
ogive lengths cannot be much more than 1.5 calibres due to setback and the possibility of them bending as they slump.
transonic aircraft and missiles do not have sharp long pointy noses.
this is because it was discovered that airflow at those speeds was not smooth and regular on that shape.
among the preferred shapes is the ellipse, and something like the metford/money nose.
both economics and safety caused research into this.
certainly shortening the overturning moment will increase stability, and reducing pressure on the nose is an obvious way to do this.
but a bent nose will move the centre of mass from the physical axis and that will override all the gains.
the question remains open:veryconfu
keep safe,
bruce.

Question for Bruce (and anybody else likes to help out)
If I take a CBE postell (quite traditional old style postell from what I can see) - its 550 grains, shallow lube grooves - and we delete the driving band and one lube groove - should make it about 490grain with three grooves instead of four - what would you expect that to do to stability at 45/70 speeds and mid range - 500 yards mainly???
Thanks
Joe

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
my assumption is that it would be stable.
assuming it is an 18" twist,
it will be a little more stable than necessary, which means that it will have a little more yaw of repose in flight.
with the proviso that dynamic stability cannot be calculated like gyroscopic stability.
if you can do it in a lathe, it might pay to shorten some that way for firing tests prior to spending money.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Better yet, just get a Saeco 645 mould and go.

[indian joe]

joe,
my assumption is that it would be stable.
assuming it is an 18" twist,
it will be a little more stable than necessary, which means that it will have a little more yaw of repose in flight.
with the proviso that dynamic stability cannot be calculated like gyroscopic stability.
if you can do it in a lathe, it might pay to shorten some that way for firing tests prior to spending money.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
gotcha - thanks - yes its 18 twist - yes can do in the lathe . That boolit is 550grain and I didnt want to go that heavy in my 76. CBE make decent molds and can get that one reasonable price - still nutting this stuff out. lots of good info coming forward here and my thanks to all for that
Joe

[indian joe]

Better yet, just get a Saeco 645 mould and go.

Don
Thanks ---- was looking at the Saeco 745 - they both look ok to me - litle more lube than some of the others maybe? - searched around some and both these out of stock where I looked.
Changed my range around today so got a bit more opportunity to test stuff - still playing with that LEE and it seems like wind is the issue.
cheers and thanks
Joe

[rfd]

i started using a led sled for 200yd load testing, and i believe it's helped. wind, if present, is the only real bugaboo.

[Don McDowell]

That 645 bullet carries plenty of lube, and it shoots well to 1000 yards from 45-70's. If I were to limit to one greaser in the 2.1 case that 645 would be my choice.

[indian joe]

That 645 bullet carries plenty of lube, and it shoots well to 1000 yards from 45-70's. If I were to limit to one greaser in the 2.1 case that 645 would be my choice.

Don
Shot again today - I guess we might call it dis proving the 500grain LEE !
I have two versions of that mold they a little different shape at the nose - thought that might make some difference - the wide base band old version is what I have shot most and it has seemed ok - there was a bit of wind today - I already had my elevation setting so I let one go - got a hit - shot four more - went to investigate (this is 500yards and my scope is just not that good) anyhow the group is dead on for elevation but far right of the target - its ten inches high by seven inches wide, two are keyholed bad a third is definitely wobbly and a fourth the hole is not quite round - so we obviously have serious instability but from the look of it only in the last fifty yards or so ?
So finally that has kinda made the point - I returned to fire five of the later version of that same mold - these boolits 15 grains lighter, same powder, same lube, same everything and from the look of the strikes they make a half reasonable group - BUT about four feet lower (on the ground in front of the target) still trying to figure that one out - the strikes were in line with the hits on the target with the other boolit - no sight change ??????????????? (something must have shifted there that I havent figured yet)
Along the way I also tried the Lyman 490 grain Snover my mate gave me ten of - all over the place!!! I did manage to fell a small branch from a grey gum tree overhead at the 300yard mark - that was kinda fun.
So at this point the saeco mold looks my best move - I want something with enough lube that I can shoot with the blow tube. While I wait I might put a few of those LEE boolits through the lathe and shorten the nose some - it might be interesting to figure just what is the problem.
anyway thanks for the advice
Joe

[maxiblu]

Lee 500-3R is OK till ya get a crosswind. Me also thinks the heavy nose is the problem. Only took about 18 months to figure that out.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that a man was testing a pointed bullet for the 45-70 at 1500 yards and placed results on utube. I couldn't find it. Could someone be a bit more specific in describing how it could be found?

[dirtball]

Is this the one you were looking for?

Dave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfRqwUcas3o&t=143s

[Carrier]

What COL is being used by those of you who have loaded the Lee 459-500-3R?

[indian joe]

What COL is being used by those of you who have loaded the Lee 459-500-3R?

Load mine with the front band just touching the lands and that puts the crimp just inside the last lube groove - so the boolit is well into the case.
When I came on here I did not know of Don McDowell or his rep as a shooter - but he has this boolit figured (maybe a bit harsh on it) we have had good results to 700 yards on calm days but a bit of wind and it all goes to h#ll -- keyholing from about 400yards out. I tried some modifications - lathe turned a small flat nose and I think that inproved it . I stuck with it too long because of those big lube grooves - shoot a long string and not foul out is pretty darn attractive

[Carrier]

Load mine with the front band just touching the lands and that puts the crimp just inside the last lube groove - so the boolit is well into the case.
When I came on here I did not know of Don McDowell or his rep as a shooter - but he has this boolit figured (maybe a bit harsh on it) we have had good results to 700 yards on calm days but a bit of wind and it all goes to h#ll -- keyholing from about 400yards out. I tried some modifications - lathe turned a small flat nose and I think that inproved it . I stuck with it too long because of those big lube grooves - shoot a long string and not foul out is pretty darn attractive

That’s probably a lot longer shooting that what I’ll be doing because of eye sight. So far the 405 hollow base is working out well but thought I might try the 500 grain as I bought the mold the same time. I cast a few of them and was eye balling the bullet beside the case and that’s about what I came up with for COL as well.

[indian joe]

That’s probably a lot longer shooting that what I’ll be doing because of eye sight. So far the 405 hollow base is working out well but thought I might try the 500 grain as I bought the mold the same time. I cast a few of them and was eye balling the bullet beside the case and that’s about what I came up with for COL as well.

If you only shoot to 200yards (or maybe even 300) put a decent wad under that pointy LEE boolit - you likely be surprised at how well it does - provided that you didnt get one of those undersized molds they put out when they first changed to the newer style blocks (measure some of your casting - it should be .459 and right close on the 500 grain weight) - on these big lube groove boolits its important to get the lube grooves full all the way round for accuracy.

[Carrier]

If you only shoot to 200yards (or maybe even 300) put a decent wad under that pointy LEE boolit - you likely be surprised at how well it does - provided that you didnt get one of those undersized molds they put out when they first changed to the newer style blocks (measure some of your casting - it should be .459 and right close on the 500 grain weight) - on these big lube groove boolits its important to get the lube grooves full all the way round for accuracy.

I just started casting a couple months ago and have been concentrating on the 405 hollow base. I finally got those dropping at 405ish and .461 to .463. I only cast a few of the 500’s and they were about 490 or a little less in weight and .458 to .459. Now that I figured out the right temperature for the lead and moulds I think I should be ok with the 500 one.
I’m going to powder coat them as well.

[indian joe]

I just started casting a couple months ago and have been concentrating on the 405 hollow base. I finally got those dropping at 405ish and .461 to .463. I only cast a few of the 500’s and they were about 490 or a little less in weight and .458 to .459. Now that I figured out the right temperature for the lead and moulds I think I should be ok with the 500 one.
I’m going to powder coat them as well.

Ahhh I only shoot black powder - assumed from your choice of molds you were doing likewise - if you gonna go smokeyless and powder coat - there no advantage (over a bunch of others) in either of those boolits

[Carrier]

Ahhh I only shoot black powder - assumed from your choice of molds you were doing likewise - if you gonna go smokeyless and powder coat - there no advantage (over a bunch of others) in either of those boolits

Will be using both smokeless and black powder.

[indian joe]

Will be using both smokeless and black powder.

Never done it but I believe powder coating would be a bad idea with blackpowder
Dont believe either that powder coating will gain you anything at all on those LEE boolits compared to a decent grease lube. ????

[Carrier]

I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel but so far for me this has worked out very well.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?373488-Lubing-powder-coated-bullets