a military commanders take on the .223 platform..

[Mauser 98K]

and if the target has unfashionable kevlar, at ranges greater than 200m you can only hope to accomplish a wound that my or may not incapacitate or kill..

this is an article written by "Major Thomas P. Ehrhart" a commanding officer in the United States Army. this is his take on the AR platform chambered in the standard .223/5.56 caliber.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA512331&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

i happen to agree with a lot of what he says, that the .223 starts to become ineffective for killing after about 200m. the reason being that the .223 relies heavily upon the super high velocity of the round and its fragmentation to create the devastating wound cavities required to kill or incapacitate the target. at ranges further than 200m the velocity has dropped below the threshold to cause fragmentation and capability to inflict these wound cavities is greatly diminished. at ranges greater than 200m it has been found that shot placement becomes critical and that anything short of vital shots will not kill and can sometimes leave the enemy combat effective.

but at the greater ranges, being the velocity has dropped to below the critical velocity for fragmentation, the projectile then must rely on hitting vital spots and the transference of energy into the target. the problem with this is that being the standard m855 round deforms little or if at all when a certain velocity has been reached the round is more likely to just pass on through with little transference of energy to the target..

but these are one of the main reasons that for my rifle/caliber selection i do not have a .223 rifle. while the .223 was ok for what it was originally adopted for (close range jungle warfare within 200m or less) it is not ideal for a country that has ranges of upwards of 500m-1,000m. why the .223 is forced as the best and only choice by a lot of survivalist organizations despite its limitations in open country environments is a mystery. there is just too much terrain inside of the US for the .223 to be an effective combat round consideration for survival. and this is what has been found out in Afghanistan with the mountainous and open terrain. most of the time all they can hope to do is keep the insurgents pinned down till CAS or artillery arrives when faced with targets at 300m and beyond. i for one would much rather have an SKS in 7.62x39mm than the .223 for ranges up to 300m. the reason is that even though the 7.62x39mm is traveling slower than the .223, the M43 7.62x39mm at 300m has over 200FtLbs of kinetic energy over the .223. also the larger cross section of the heavier 30cal round ensures that more energy is transferred into the target at those longer ranges.

but i know this post is going to stir up a lot of feelings in people who think the .223 is the end all of calibers. im not here to poop on anyone choice of calibers, nor am i here to poop on the AR platform. if i was given an AR-10 id be a happy camper. im just pointing out the serious limitation to the AR chambered in .223 as a killing round for a SHTF situation. the limitations have been proven in warfare and are well documented.. now if your AO is all wooded area and MOUT where you are within 200m then the .223 would probably shine, as that is what it was intended for when it was adopted during Vietnam. but if your AO has mountainous terrain or ranges greater than 200m, something with more poop downrange should be taken into consideration.

[Smoke4320]

You are correct and the reason a lot of 7.62x51 rifles are being put into battlefield action

[RU shooter]

Put the 223 back in its original 20" barrel and it gains some range . I agree the 223 has its plus and minuses there are better rounds for combat but the US and its allies aren't gonna change any time soon.

[condorjohn]

I believe Jeff Cooper called them "Poodle Shooters"

[458mag]

and if the target has unfashionable kevlar, at ranges greater than 200m you can only hope to accomplish a wound that my or may not incapacitate or kill..

this is an article written by "Major Thomas P. Ehrhart" a commanding officer in the United States Army. this is his take on the AR platform chambered in the standard .223/5.56 caliber.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA512331&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

i happen to agree with a lot of what he says, that the .223 starts to become ineffective for killing after about 200m. the reason being that the .223 relies heavily upon the super high velocity of the round and its fragmentation to create the devastating wound cavities required to kill or incapacitate the target. at ranges further than 200m the velocity has dropped below the threshold to cause fragmentation and capability to inflict these wound cavities is greatly diminished. at ranges greater than 200m it has been found that shot placement becomes critical and that anything short of vital shots will not kill and can sometimes leave the enemy combat effective.

but at the greater ranges, being the velocity has dropped to below the critical velocity for fragmentation, the projectile then must rely on hitting vital spots and the transference of energy into the target. the problem with this is that being the standard m855 round deforms little or if at all when a certain velocity has been reached the round is more likely to just pass on through with little transference of energy to the target..

but these are one of the main reasons that for my rifle/caliber selection i do not have a .223 rifle. while the .223 was ok for what it was originally adopted for (close range jungle warfare within 200m or less) it is not ideal for a country that has ranges of upwards of 500m-1,000m. why the .223 is forced as the best and only choice by a lot of survivalist organizations despite its limitations in open country environments is a mystery. there is just too much terrain inside of the US for the .223 to be an effective combat round consideration for survival. and this is what has been found out in Afghanistan with the mountainous and open terrain. most of the time all they can hope to do is keep the insurgents pinned down till CAS or artillery arrives when faced with targets at 300m and beyond. i for one would much rather have an SKS in 7.62x39mm than the .223 for ranges up to 300m. the reason is that even though the 7.62x39mm is traveling slower than the .223, the M43 7.62x39mm at 300m has over 200FtLbs of kinetic energy over the .223. also the larger cross section of the heavier 30cal round ensures that more energy is transferred into the target at those longer ranges.

but i know this post is going to stir up a lot of feelings in people who think the .223 is the end all of calibers. im not here to poop on anyone choice of calibers, nor am i here to poop on the AR platform. if i was given an AR-10 id be a happy camper. im just pointing out the serious limitation to the AR chambered in .223 as a killing round for a SHTF situation. the limitations have been proven in warfare and are well documented.. now if your AO is all wooded area and MOUT where you are within 200m then the .223 would probably shine, as that is what it was intended for when it was adopted during Vietnam. but if your AO has mountainous terrain or ranges greater than 200m, something with more poop downrange should be taken into consideration.

OK I'll poop on em. I hate the **** things. I don't know who decided that a varmint rifle would be a great battle weapon and when we started calling the enemy varments, but I think their thinking was, is, flawed. And nothing ruins a good range day faster than one of the zombie appocolyps prep rednecks parking right next to you with his super whiz bang varmint rifle blasting away as fast as he can pull the trigger spraying bullets down range at a target set up at pistol range targets and dumping his hot cases all over you and your station. Give the punk something that actually has some recoil and he would probably be dangerous. Sorry for my rant but it seems that a lot of youngins shooting the military VARMENT rifles don't have any range etticut what so ever.

[Omega]

I don't know, I'd much prefer a 5.56 vs a 7.62x39. Everything else being equal, shot placement is key, and I can put steel on target much better with the 5.56. The 7.62x39 is nothing better than a 30-30, and while it has it's place it is not the end all. But, this is America, and we have choices and I chose to have a .270 or .308 instead of those two.

[gnostic]

It's always been my understanding, that killing wasn't the desired effect. A wounded adversary, that requires labor intensive treatment, was thought to be prefered.

[Traffer]

OK I'll poop on em. I hate the **** things. I don't know who decided that a varmint rifle would be a great battle weapon and when we started calling the enemy varments, but I think their thinking was, is, flawed. And nothing ruins a good range day faster than one of the zombie appocolyps prep rednecks parking right next to you with his super whiz bang varmint rifle blasting away as fast as he can pull the trigger spraying bullets down range at a target set up at pistol range targets and dumping his hot cases all over you and your station. Give the punk something that actually has some recoil and he would probably be dangerous. Sorry for my rant but it seems that a lot of youngins shooting the military VARMENT rifles don't have any range etticut what so ever.

What he said^^^^

[500Linebaughbuck]

i was in the US Army and nowhere was it found that you can use 223 rem ammo. you can use 5.56x45 ammo, and no, its not the same thing. a 62gr ball (m855a1) goes in, then it tumbles the whole way out. a 55-62 gr hornady, speer..... goes in and splinters itself.

gnostic,
you right. its desired effect is to wound, not kill.


if you use commercial ammo(like hornady, federal, speer...) , you are in violation of the Geneva and Hague Accords.

personally, i despise the 5.56. i would go with 6.8mm spc to be my primary arm. i would also go with the 45acp to be my secondary. the squad automatic weapon would be 7.62x51.


the guy, major whateverhisname is, has to be a REMF.

[Walkingwolf]

If I had a choice between 5.56, and 30-30, I would take the 30-30 every time. In fact it was my choice of carry in the trunk of my patrol car when I first started as a LEO, Marlin 336. But then I am not into the AR platform, though I will fight tooth, and nail for others to have them.

I can understand the military choice of a varmint round, it is easy to learn compared to higher recoiling rounds. The slender round in hardball can penetrate body armor, but for two legged varmints it is a wounding round, unless you train soldiers to primarily shoot for the noggin. In the proper platform I can see no reason the 7.62x39 cannot achieve the same accuracy at similar ranges.

A good look at shootings where the 5.56 was used will show more wounded than killed, and many wounded not incapacitated. Also the fatalities are usually multiple hits for the victim to go down. The 5.56 is good at spraying ammo due to the low recoil, but a slow larger caliber would probably be more devastating with less rounds, AKA 12 gauge shotgun.

[Mr_Sheesh]

For civilians you could use soft point (Non FMJ) ammo, making the round more effective; I am a big guy so I chose the 7.62x51 instead of 5.56x45 for myself.

[Mauser 98K]

lol, 458mag..

but my choice for long range is the .308. it has been proven to 800m to be effective in first round kills.. for the shorter ranges or 300m and below i use the 7.62x39mm.. i load mine with 130gr Hollow Point ammo that i swage myself. they will transfer all energy into the target and create flat disk inside the body. id much rather be able to transfer 700Ft/Lbs into the target at 300m Vs 500Ft/Lbs of the M855 that will transfer less than that in reality as at that range it will not fragment...

[RU shooter]

I don't know about some of the options some of you guys would have rather than a m16 i.e. 7:62 Russian and 30-30 think about it for a minute . At 500-600 or so yard what's your hit potential with a marlin 30-30 or SKS ? I've shot that range before with the AR15 with open sights and have have high confidence of hits on human size targets . Food for thought ,hits in a lesser caliber is better than misses With something better , marksmanship comes into play also in all this

[GhostHawk]

I can only judge by what I myself have seen.

A Most guys I have seen shoot AR platform rifles in .223/5.56 are doing good to hit a fruit box 30 inches high by 18 inches wide at 25 yards with more than 50% of their rounds.

B To be fair and honest most AK shooters I've seen had similar issues.

C On the flip side I saw a guy shooting single aimed shots from an AR-10 in what appeared to be .308 and was printing less than 2 inch groups at 200 yards. And those single aimed shots were at least 2 minutes apart.

D I don't try to shoot beyond 100 yards anymore, yeah I am over 65, getting fat, slow, nothing works as good as it used to. But I have a .30-30 single shot that will shoot MOA out to 100. Beyond that I don't know as I have not tried.

I think the average person would have difficulty hitting a human sized target at that range in outdoor conditions. On the other hand I used to regularly pop crows at 3-400 yards. And that crow vital area is a lot smaller than a human. But I did not miss many.

And while I did not shoot them with a .223 or a .30-30 my own preference would lean towards a larger caliber.

You going to stand a quarter mile away and let me pop at ya with a .357 mag or .444Marlin single shot?

Somehow I doubt it.

Everyone has their preferences, yes even the military.
I understand some of the reasons behind their thinking.
And I disagree with some of it.

I'd rather see a soldier that can place 10 killing shots in a row at 300 than a soldier that can pack 300 rounds and burn through them all in a minute or two without killing anything.

Call me old fashioned.

Make the one you have in the chamber count. Then worry about the next one.
That is my preference, YMMV.

[Mauser 98K]

well RU. you gotta take into account what the Major said in the article. it is not if you can hit the person at 400m-500m with the 5.56, it is that the power has dropped so far that it will most likely not even incapacitate unless it was a direct hit to a vital organ. and if they are wearing armor then you might as well hang it up at 500m with the 5.56. at that range even a PASGT vest like i got would offer some protection against the 5.56, as it has dropped to around 1,400fps and has 284Ft/Lbs of energy left.. the 7.62x39 M43 would be going a bit slower at 1,263fps, but it would still have 438Ft/Lbs of force left to transfer to the target. and being the cross section of the 30cal is larger, the energy transfer would automatically be greater than the small cross section 5.56.. the 5.56 was never meant as a long range cartridge, it was developed and adopted for a jungle environment where most targets were under 200m. most of the time 50m was as far as you could see in the dense vegetation, sometimes it was shorter ranges which is why there was a lot of hand to hand in Nam. so there was never an issue with the round not having enough poop to put into the target. while it was effective at the shorter ranges, when they dropped it in the open country on Afghanistan is where the thing fell on its ****, as the insurgents were using everything from the AKM in 7.62x39 to the larger PK in 7.62x54R. this US is the same in regards to ranges encountered. here in the US the range can vary upwards of 1,000m on a regular basis.. you always pick the weapon for the environment. if you stick with heavily wooded areas or MOUT operations where ranges stay under 200m then the 5.56 is in its element. but once you start stretching to 300m and beyond, it is a **** shoot at best as to what the 5.56 is going to do to the target.

but as for the 7.62x39mm not being effective at that range. here is a Russian feller with an AK47 at 500m. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qiq3szgZgjI

i think the 7.62x39 would eat the 5.56 at those ranges as far as retained energy and energy transferred to the target. would do a lot more damage anyway.

but the article also said that you also got to take into account that just shooting the 5.56 on flat terrain on targets that never move are totally different.. a lot of people might be able to hit a milk jug at 500m when it stays still on a flat range with little to no wind, but that is never the battlefield environment. 99% of those who could hit the jug at 500m would probably be lucky to be able to hit it at 200m if they were shooting angled shots, had a 10mph full value wind, or the target was moving.

[Traffer]

I scratched my head when they came out with the AR15...Still scratching it.

[Omega]

Well, not a Major, just a former SFC, so take that for what you will. First, I'd have a hard time identifying a target as friend or foe at 500 yards, specially with iron or the EOTech sights. At that range, I would need a scope, higher than a 4x some of the M4s had. Now, let's say I identify the target as foe, I'd probably have it engaged with the crew-serve, with the ARs in the support role. Second, we were already laden down with 60-80lbs of gear, some more than that, so the extra weight would not be welcome. And lastly, our current weapons have been taking care of business against the AKs, take Somalia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)) for instance, we lost 18, vs what some estimate from 100 to over 1k. You can also check body counts from Iraq and Afghanistan, they fall along the same lines. I know the M4 doesn't account for those numbers entirely, but I'd say we have a good mix of weapons and tactics at the moment.

[Rockwell]

Unless you’ve personally carried and used one in combat, I don’t much care about your opinion.

[Mauser 98K]

Omega is correct. at that range with irons it is hard to establish who or what they are. at beyond 200m id most likely switch to my .308 Mauser or my 8mm Hakim. my .308 has a 4-16x scope on it and would be no problem identifying the target.

but the thing about Somalia was that the goofs there were total idiots with no real organized leadership and no real training. we was more or less fighting gangs of savages rather than military. it was more or less the same with Afghanistan.. instead of one large organized military force, we were fighting groups that also had a habit of fighting each other. but watching a lot of these Afghan and Somalia guys fight, it was no wonder a lot could not hit the side of a barn if it fell on them.. some would just bounce out from behind a wall with a gun they could not control and fire a barrage down the street b4 diving back behind the wall. no attempts to do aimed fire was present a lot of the time.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Religious belief there, "If Allah wills it, my bullets will hit the enemy." Though the statistics seem NOT to fall in their favor, for some reason...

[dverna]

It makes little sense for civilians to worry about fmj bullets when better options are available.

I can carry a lot more 5.56 than .308, and I like having more in the magazine. At 400 yards, anyone with some marksmanship skills will be effective. And in a civilian confrontation, I doubt many shots will exceed 200 yards. But that is pure speculation and others will have better data.

I have a .308 “sniper” rifle should the need arise. But will use the AR as the main rifle if the SHTF.

A load out of 5.56 is heavy enough for me. Would not want to carry that much in .308.

[Love Life]

That varmint rifle and caliber has put a whole heap of people under the dirt. I have confidence in the caliber and the platform it is fired from. However, it is not the best for shooting through light barriers.

[shdwlkr]

1 Defense Secretary McNamara gave us the M16 I was in the Army when they were bragging about what a great weapon it was. I hated it 55 grain in a 1 in 14 twist, I had better at home
2 it was thought wounding was better than out right ending the enemy, as it was supposed to tie up more troops caring for the wounded, only thing was the enemy in Vietnam didn't care about wounded so much
3 if you want to hit the enemy at a good distance then you need a bullet of 100-130 grains leaving the muzzle of your firearm at 2800-3000 fps, it isn't rocket science.
4 we went with the 5.56mm round because recoil was less, troop could carry more ammo, learning curve was less than with the 7.62x51, weight of the weapon was less
5 as to the AK round it is good out to maybe 300 yards, it was never seen as a long range weapon by its inventor no less it was a close range weapon to take on issues in a urban situation or close combat
just the thoughts of an old guy who played many decades ago

[458mag]

That varmint rifle and caliber has put a whole heap of people under the dirt. I have confidence in the caliber and the platform it is fired from. However, it is not the best for shooting through light barriers.
And there is the icing on the cake. Why not carry something that is able for any light arms situation a Grunt might find HIMSELF in? Not saying 30-06 or 7.62 nato, but at least something above varmint caliber status. I understand a lot of politics played into the present platform and I think we all know what happens when the goobernut gets envolved with military matters, and also Generals and rear echelon pogies that don't even know which end of the GUN goes bang.

[Bigslug]

We've got boatloads of sources from the dawn of the individually-issued rifle to today that suggest the average guy on the gun is useless beyond, or won't engage past 400 yards on a good day.

The early black powder rifles displayed numerous instances of projectiles sailing over the heads of enemies if the officers didn't tell the grunts to dial their sights back down as the distance closed - not easy to accomplish after all the noise and smoke get started. Parabolic arcs are NOT something the average person can properly visualize. When you get beyond point-and-click ranges and start shooting up and down hills, they're going to need either tracers or the Law of Averages.

The first things to come off the British battle rifles in WWI when they needed to speed up production were the long range volley sights and the provision to easily adjust for windage without a punch and mallet.

The first day of the Somme was a mess on many levels, but it was at least partly so because the Brits tried to move forward through muddy, churned earth heavily loaded down with (among other things) 10-pound rifles and the ammunition to feed them.

The Germans and the Russians were looking at the probability of fighting in the wide open steppes. . .and yet they both started moving to cartridges that are gasping for breath at 400 yards.

Maybe the 5.56 IS devastating inside of 200 yards, and significantly less so beyond. That more or less instantly kills the close range enemies I'm most worried about, and put attention-requiring holes in those farther out, possibly distracting his pals from the fight. A cardiovascular hit is a cardiovascular hit, and will incapacitate rapidly enough. Hits outside the "bread box" are simply bad hits, and they don't - no different than if you botch a shot on a deer. . .even if you do use "enough gun".

I believe in "real" rifle cartridges, having spent years being geeky and nerdy about how to use them. The unfortunate reality, however, is that for every Jesse Wallingford, Alvin York, and Carlos Hathcock who could work miracles with such an arm, there are literally ten thousand walking fence posts who will complain that it's too heavy and kicks too much. As a recent 'net video said of the 8x57, "You don't need a round that powerful to miss at 200 yards".

OK, so Afghanistan is different. We've built our training doctrine around the realities described above, and that reality includes addressing long range threats with specialist marksmen, machine gunners, artillery, and air strikes. Does it really make sense for a nation that takes it upon itself to play in all areas of the world to massively alter equipment and doctrine for one little corner of it? This "arms room" concept sounds like another one of those Swiss Army Knife concepts that solves everyone's problem on paper, but is a real goat rodeo in practice:

Do you have all the spare parts for this single-mission specific weapon system?

Did you bring them to the theater of operations?

Did you correctly order/ship/receive the theater-specific parts. . .or the ones the REST of the Army is using?

When you're an Army unit, and you call on the Marines, Navy, or Air Force. . .or say, a foreign ally to drop you an emergency resupply of ammo and magazines, is what they bring even going to WORK in your rifle?

Not so simple, is it?

[Love Life]

And there is the icing on the cake. Why not carry something that is able for any light arms situation a Grunt might find HIMSELF in? Not saying 30-06 or 7.62 nato, but at least something above varmint caliber status. I understand a lot of politics played into the present platform and I think we all know what happens when the goobernut gets envolved with military matters, and also Generals and rear echelon pogies that don't even know which end of the GUN goes bang.

The M203 40mm grenade launcher firing a HEDP round takes care of the barrier issues we’ll enough, lol.

[Walkingwolf]

I don't know about some of the options some of you guys would have rather than a m16 i.e. 7:62 Russian and 30-30 think about it for a minute . At 500-600 or so yard what's your hit potential with a marlin 30-30 or SKS ? I've shot that range before with the AR15 with open sights and have have high confidence of hits on human size targets . Food for thought ,hits in a lesser caliber is better than misses With something better , marksmanship comes into play also in all this

30-30 is more than adequate accuracy for home defense, or law enforcement. Anything further would usually be the 308 in a tuned bolt action. Every shooting incident the AR platform IMO has performed poorly. Survivable wounded far outnumbering the fatalities, number of hits to incapacitate in the handgun category. This has proven true in almost every mass shooting, which is probably a good thing. Several gun experts have pointed out that one of the tactical shotguns are far more deadly. Even the famous Garand would outperform, with almost every hit in center mass a fatality. The Garand devastated the Germans, and Japanese.

It's no skin off my neck, use what you want, I am just not impressed.

[gnostic]

Bash them if you will, but my AR's drive tacks. I used to own a HK91 and in addition to destroying my cases, target acquisition was very slow, due to the weight. Make no mistake, the M16/AR15 is a killing machine, if I had to defend myself, one of my AR's would be my first choice.

With bullets and motorcycles, power thrills, but speed kills. Awhile back, a guy on youtube showed a bullet wound to his thigh from a 193-5.56. The bullet tumbled, bent in half at the cannelure and came out of his knee. I don't think a .264 or .277 bullet with a decent BC, could be driven fast to match the destructive nature of the 5.56/223...

[Walkingwolf]

Unless you’ve personally carried and used one in combat, I don’t much care about your opinion.

Fair enough, but as far as opinions go I have no problem with telling people to go pound sand. I live my live on my own terms, do not stick my nose in other people's business, and do not even attempt to control anyone other than the person in the mirror. IOW, I just don't give a **** what others care about.

[Walkingwolf]

Bash them if you will, but my AR's drive tacks. I used to own a HK91 and in addition to destroying my cases, target acquisition was very slow, due to the weight. Make no mistake, the M16/AR15 is a killing machine, if I had to defend myself, my AR would be my first choice.

With bullets and motorcycles, power thrills, but speed kills. Awhile back, a guy on youtube showed a bullet wound to his thigh from a 193-5.56. The bullet tumbled, bent in half at the cannelure and came out of his knee. I don't think a .264 or .277 bullet with a decent BC, could be driven fast to match the destructive nature of the 5,56/223...

It's not bashing, it is called preference, like some guys like redheads instead of blonde. As far as destructive, larger heavier in the same velocity wins as far as energy. Heck the old CW musket 58 caliber ripped off limbs, and it was just lumbering along.

Everybody who would hunt buffalo or bear with 5.56 please raise their hands. Guess what was the predominate round for hunting buffalo before smokeless rounds. I don't own an AR and have no intention of buying one, and I will thumb my nose that anybody that whines about it.

[Gavetta]

a good shooter with an m16 20 inch barrel in a snug sling at 600 yards should be able to keep a 9inch group.a 7.62 x 39 is not competitive.go watch an nra match and look at the targets.

[derek45]

The M4 & 5.56NATO aren't going anywhere for a while.

Lots of dead commies and terrorists, . . . deader than fried chicken, since 1965

Pretty much every nation on earth (that can afford to$$), is dumping 7.62 and adopting 5.56, 5.45, 5.8 caliber weapons.

It's easy to say " let's go back to 7.62NATO/6.5/6.8 when you back your car up to the shooting bench.

It's different when you have to hump it, along with all the other sheit

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/595d5cb0b8a79be945f59e68/595d6170b11be1a7e5814ae7/59961610bf629ae870d13fcc/1503009932377/iraq-loading-1006.jpg?format=1500w

[Love Life]

People can argue it until they are blue in the face, but the irrefutable fact is the platform and the round have earned their place on the battlefield. They are effective killers.

[WILCO]

Unless you’ve personally carried and used one in combat, I don’t much care about your opinion.




People can argue it until they are blue in the face, but the irrefutable fact is the platform and the round have earned their place on the battlefield. They are effective killers.

There are many reasons why I don't come here and participate like I used to.
The negativity and ignorance of fact is frustrating and a turn off.
So much so, in this thread that I felt compelled to comment.
Firearms are nothing more than tools in a toolbox. Learning how they work is imperative for success.
Understanding that a simple .22 lr will deliver death is a good starting point. Everything after that is relative. The two quotes above, say all I need to know about the AR and 5.56.
It would behoove the membership to realize book smart and reality are indeed, two different worlds.

[458mag]

It's always been my understanding, that killing wasn't the desired effect. A wounded adversary, that requires labor intensive treatment, was thought to be prefered.
Not when the enemies leaders could give a beggers fart about the well being of its troops, and I for one have reservations about just wounding the enemy and playing nice. You kill the SOB with as little ammo as He deserves. General Patton would be rolling in his grave at todays military. Don't think many men complained to him about My equipments to heavy.

[derek45]

ask any combat arms MOS soldier or Marine if they were trained to wound.

that old 5.56mm "designed to wound" rumor is bravo sierra

[Love Life]

I was taught center mass, and to keep shooting until they are dead.

[Duckiller]

General Curtis le may got M-16s for his airmen base guards in Vietnam. Army guys saw them and wanted them. Lots more bullets for the same weight. This is what an OLD arm,y guy remembers. I never got to shoot one and only handled one once. Did carry an M-14 a bunch. The OCR was one day away from going into Washington DC with fixed bayonets on m-14s.

[Hickory]

I believe Jeff Cooper called them "Poodle Shooters"

Yes, that's what it does best!

[Love Life]

Yes, that's what it does best!


The 5.56 kills a lot more than poodles.

[Larry Gibson]

Having actually used both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO along with the 30 Carbine and 45 ACP in hotly contested adversarial situations I know which one I would rather have regardless of the engagement distance. I have also seen the immediate end use results of the 30-06, 7.62x39, 9mm and 7.62x54R cartridges on friend and foe alike. All were with FMJ ammunition.

In my last deployment they kept trying to give me an M4A1 because it was easier to carry and get in and out of vehicles with. I told them I would take an M14......that got me a "deer in the headlight look" so I just kept my M16A2. I did not feel undergunned with it but I was not in an offensive posture.

In a non combative environment I have shot numerous critters with all the afore mentioned cartridges using soft and hollow pointed ammo.

While I have 3 ARs in 5.56 and a 9mm CZ75 in a SHTF scenario it is my M1A in 7.62 NATO and M1911 45 ACP that will go out the door with me.

"7.62 NATO.....better than Master Card of VISA......accepted worldwide.....never leave home without it......"

"What is cover to 5.56 is only concealment to 7.62 NATO...."

[458mag]

The 5.56 kills a lot more than poodles.

Yeah but you only have to shoot the poodle once with it. Ussually.

[Mauser 98K]

"7.62 NATO.....better than Master Card of VISA......accepted worldwide.....never leave home without it......"

lol. exactly.. i like to call my .308 rifle AT&T. "reach out and touch someone. reach out and just say die"..

but for accuracy with the 7.62x39mm.. it can be done with the SKS out to 400m-500m. you will not do it with undersized .308-.309 cheap ammo or one of the dust cover scope rails.. that is a lot of the problems with secondary sights or scopes that i have seen put on the SKS, they were 99% of the time the dust cover mounts that shift with every shot. those rails are mediocre at 100m, much less 200m and beyond.. i have the only SKS receiver scope rail i have seen, although i see them for sale online..
219982

it is a little rough as i finished machining it, tested it, sprayed a little rattle can on it, and never finished the final coating of the thing.. and that was 10yr ago. i might sit down and finish it being i got the thing out.

but as to the 5.56 killing. i never said it would not kill. a .25Auto will kill. a 22CB Cap will kill. a .177cal pellet gun will kill if it hits the right spot. a spear or a bow and arrow will kill. even a well placed rock will kill. i wouldn't want to get hit by the thing either way. does that make it the ideal weapon? no. it just means that it will work for within the design parameters it was intended for, and those parameters being close range jungle warfare. it is the same with the 7.62x39. it was never intended to be a long range sniper round, it was designed to be very reliable at ranges upward of 300m. for anything longer get a bigger gun..

[Walkingwolf]

I am baffled, if 5.56nato is the be all of all long range calibers~why is the M24 chambered in 7.62nato?

[Loudenboomer]

"What is cover to 5.56 is only concealment to 7.62 NATO...." Well said.
The M 16 seemed fine when plenty of M 60's we around. The little 5.56 bullets from a 1-14 twist were barley stable. I didn't realize how much so until I went to a night fire all tracer range. Those 5.56 bullets turned and bounced every direction. It's what makes it a high causality producing round. It's weak on hardened targets and extended ranges. That's where the 7.62 shines and every squad needs one. Just my 2 cents.

[kens]

Nearly ALL the AR platforms at the local gun range are little more than Hornet rifles, .22 Hornet that is. And I chronographed that.
Just about everybody with a AR-5.56 has the shortest barrel with the compensator/flash hider that gives 2 more inches to be BATF legal. Whats that leave you, an effective barrel of what? 14 inches???
I was at the range with my chrono and the guy next to me had one of the AR that I am describing. I was having a hard time understanding why my muzzleloader was chronographing at 2400fps. After several shots and misunderstanding, I figured out that my chrono was picking up the shots of the AR next to me. All 2400fps of it. Do the math.
If you lose 100fps per inch of barrel, and if .223 is good for 3000fps on a 24inch barrel, and most guys have a mere 14" barrel, then yeah, a proper .22 Hornet with a sporter barrel will throw 55gr at higher speed.
Nowadays I call them things Hornet rifles.

[TCLouis]

Wonder what SPC stands for and why/where it originated?:coffeecom

[derek45]

Wonder what SPC stands for and why/where it originated?:coffeecom

Special Purpose Cartridge

6.8SPC and 6.5Grendel are a lot of fun

but I seriously doubt either will ever replace 5.56NATO for standard use.
.

[Love Life]

I am baffled, if 5.56nato is the be all of all long range calibers~why is the M24 chambered in 7.62nato?

I don’t recall the 5.56 being called the end all, be all of long range calibers.

[Love Life]

Having actually used both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO along with the 30 Carbine and 45 ACP in hotly contested adversarial situations I know which one I would rather have regardless of the engagement distance. I have also seen the immediate end use results of the 30-06, 7.62x39, 9mm and 7.62x54R cartridges on friend and foe alike. All were with FMJ ammunition.

In my last deployment they kept trying to give me an M4A1 because it was easier to carry and get in and out of vehicles with. I told them I would take an M14......that got me a "deer in the headlight look" so I just kept my M16A2. I did not feel undergunned with it but I was not in an offensive posture.

In a non combative environment I have shot numerous critters with all the afore mentioned cartridges using soft and hollow pointed ammo.

While I have 3 ARs in 5.56 and a 9mm CZ75 in a SHTF scenario it is my M1A in 7.62 NATO and M1911 45 ACP that will go out the door with me.

"7.62 NATO.....better than Master Card of VISA......accepted worldwide.....never leave home without it......"

"What is cover to 5.56 is only concealment to 7.62 NATO...."

Often times my buddy would turn his SAW in, and draw a pig for missions and patrols. The pig turns cover into concealment in a real hurry, lol.

[Omega]

While 5.56 is not for long range, as I've stated, don't underestimate it's penetration. I still will not depend on a 5.56 to go through all cover, but I wouldn't hesitate to try. As a soldier, my 5.56 M4 was just fine..but now that I'm retired, I hunt with .270 and .308, with some 300 Blackout thrown in.. why you ask? Because I care about my targets now.

http://www.justanothersoldier.com/?p=265
219987

[mcdaniel.mac]

Nearly ALL the AR platforms at the local gun range are little more than Hornet rifles, .22 Hornet that is. And I chronographed that.
Just about everybody with a AR-5.56 has the shortest barrel with the compensator/flash hider that gives 2 more inches to be BATF legal. Whats that leave you, an effective barrel of what? 14 inches???
I was at the range with my chrono and the guy next to me had one of the AR that I am describing. I was having a hard time understanding why my muzzleloader was chronographing at 2400fps. After several shots and misunderstanding, I figured out that my chrono was picking up the shots of the AR next to me. All 2400fps of it. Do the math.
If you lose 100fps per inch of barrel, and if .223 is good for 3000fps on a 24inch barrel, and most guys have a mere 14" barrel, then yeah, a proper .22 Hornet with a sporter barrel will throw 55gr at higher speed.
Nowadays I call them things Hornet rifles.I get 2300FPS from a 7.5" barrel and 2700 from a 10" barrel with 55gr .223 loads. From an 11.5" I get just under 2700FPS, my 14.7" get to 2900FPS pretty easily with the same, and when I was shooting an 18" I was getting 2900FPS from a 62gr load. Most manufacturers don't pick. 14.5" barrels because they know people want to change muzzle devices. I'm not a chronograph expert but I'd say having two projectiles, one of them flying at a different angle is a recipe for a bad chronograph reading. Also, the .223 doesn't need a 30" barrel to reach 3300FPS any more than a .44 Magnum needs a 30" barrel to reach maximum velocity, and starting from 30" and subtracting 100FPS per inch is just a puzzling abuse of the word estimation. If you move up to a 77gr SMK, a 20" barrel pushes 2800FPS and a 12" barrel about 2400. Maybe your neighbor was shooting heavy-for-caliber from a short barrel?

Now for the rest of the thread, my issued M16 weighed 11lb after the optic, rail, laser/IR/visible light, and sling were attached. My M4 was only a little lighter at 9.5. an AR10 isn't much heavier, 10-14lb with appropriate optics, but recoil is more intense and you're still balancing between barrel length and weight/handling, and with much more muzzle blast to deal with in close quarters. Ammo weighs twice as much, 1lb for a loaded STANAG mag vs 2.2lb for a similar 30rd AR10 magazine. 6.5x39 puts you back in an AR15, but now you have to rearsenal every rifle and optic and change magazines and you're not providing much more lethality at 400 or 600m to begin with. 6.5 Creedmore or similar, you're back to big and heavy and less recoil but also burning through barrels faster.

The new rifle needs to serve as the rifle for everyone from 4' 10" to 6'8" and must be manageable for anyone from 91lb to 285lb. It must be able to fight in house to house combat without blinding and deafening everyone and cannot reduce the ability no the individual to engage in close quarters combat, as well as fighting out to at least 400m, but the USMC will still want to keep at least 500m engagement capability.

What works for one individual to make good hits at 800m with no incoming fire is no judge of what will be a good service rifle. Infantry squads are already reinforcd by M240 machineguns and marksman rifles like the M110 and M24 (although some of those are moving to 300WM) crewed by experts selected for their ability to handle that weapon system efficiently. The GP service rifle or carbine needs to be suitable for everyone from the clerks and cooks to truck drivers and tankers, because as PFC Jessica Lynch (and he 3 male soldiers in her vehicle who also had their rifles in the cargo area of their vehicle) quickly learned, there's no such thing as a non-combat role on a deployment. Maybe the Army still hasn't learned, but every Marine and Corpsman attached will still be capable of locating, closing with, and destroying the enemy by fire and manuver, or repelling the enemy assault by fire and close combat.

And the M14 is right out of the question. It's time is long passed in the same way that the Willys MB is no longer a serviceable infantry vehicle.

[Walkingwolf]

The reason the m16 was chosen was based on cost to train, not magical myths like many who can't stand others using different calibers. It was a relative cost effective rifle, less labor intensive to build, lower cost materials, and the added benefit of 22lr recoil. Nothing wrong with being an AR fanboy, just stop acting like Glock fanboys. As far as range of a Marlin 336 here is an interesting video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8bPEPc3fnA

[reddog81]

Ammo weighs twice as much, 1lb for a loaded STANAG mag vs 2.2lb for a similar 30rd AR10 magazine.

Anyone can easily see the 7.62 offers better ballistics but the fact that you can carry twice as many rounds is what makes 5.56 the caliber of choice for the majority of soldiers. 1 round of .7.62 is better than 1 round of 5.56, but when compared to 2 rounds of 5.56 it changes the outcome. 5.56 is good enough for most situations and most units will various other options available for those other situations. In open areas such as Afghanistan we probably should have utilized 7.62 more, but that doesn't mean 5.56 needs to be replaced.

[Walkingwolf]

Anyone can easily see the 7.62 offers better ballistics but the fact that you can carry twice as many rounds is what makes 5.56 the caliber of choice for the majority of soldiers. 1 round of .7.62 is better than 1 round of 5.56, but when compared to 2 rounds of 5.56 it changes the outcome. 5.56 is good enough for most situations and most units will various other options available for those other situations. In open areas such as Afghanistan we probably should have utilized 7.62 more, but that doesn't mean 5.56 needs to be replaced.

Bingo! That is why the military has choices for different needs/missions. There is not one size that fits all, the 5.56 was intended to be cost effective, probably not so much when a lot more rounds are expended. Same can be said for the 9mm vs the 45acp, 9mm is considerably less expensive. But when one looks at the tendency for soldiers/police officers to fire more rounds of the less expensive ammo it turns out it is not so inexpensive. But the training costs are way lower when the two are compared in side by side training, plus the lower recoil round needs less range time. Put all BS aside government makes decisions on weapons based on cost IIRC the US only paid a couple hundred dollars for each M16, maybe less. It is the same reason that police depts initially went to Glocks, it was the extremely low price of the guns when they were first brought to the LE market.

[Omega]

The reason the m16 was chosen was based on cost to train, not magical myths like many who can't stand others using different calibers. It was a relative cost effective rifle, less labor intensive to build, lower cost materials, and the added benefit of 22lr recoil. Nothing wrong with being an AR fanboy, just stop acting like Glock fanboys. As far as range of a Marlin 336 here is an interesting video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8bPEPc3fnAWas more impressed by the dog, not even a flinch.

[RU shooter]

Was more impressed by the dog, not even a flinch.
Poor ole dogs probably deaf !

[BAGTIC]

The 'designed to wound not kill' is an urban myth.

My first center fire rifle was a.222. I had no problems with jack rabbits out to 400 yards with a non adjustable 2 position peep sight. Of course I never practiced spray & pray as I was paying for my own ammo. Don't see why a man should be harder to hit. It also killed deer, one shot, though with 63 grain soft points .

The 7-08 would actually be a better infantry cartridge than the 7.62x51. Better long range performance because of better bullet BC.

[Larry Gibson]

The article in discussion concerns the military replacement of the 5.56 cartridge. That prohibits the use of SP, HP and other expanding bullets as used in the civilian world. Any valid comparison should be with FMJ bullets.

[Omega]

The article in discussion concerns the military replacement of the 5.56 cartridge. That prohibits the use of SP, HP and other expanding bullets as used in the civilian world. Any valid comparison should be with FMJ bullets.Not sure how it will all play out but the Sierra Matchking has been adopted for the military. And now they are considering hollow points for the handgun as well.

http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1262
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2015/07/09/army-to-consider-hollow-point-bullets-for-new-pistol/
https://loadoutroom.com/16493/u-s-army-adopts-hollow-point-ammo/

[Larry Gibson]

The Sierra MKs were deemed to be designed that the HP is not there to enhance expansion. SPs, HPs for hunting and varmint shooting are designed to enhance expansion. Ergo they were not approved for use. The new cartridges for potential 5.56 replacement will not have bullets designed to expand. Such would be to disregard the Hague Convention provisions. Even though not a signatory the US has abided by those provisions for over 100 years. It remains to be seen whether the 9mm HPs will be approved for general combat use. The use of HPs for LE use by MPs is a different matter as is the use of such in some counter terrorists special operations as neither of those fall under the laws of land warfare.

[Smoke4320]

Yeah but you only have to shoot the poodle once with it. Ussually.

until you are attacked by the ultra tall, hairy bad breath stumbling Hillary Clinton Look alike , then you need 2 mag dumps

[edp2k]

A few of the original design advantages of 5.56 which drove adoption at the time (Viet Nam):

1. full auto rifle with 5.56 is more controllable than FA with 7.62x51 (i.e. M14).
2. weight of 200 round loadout (or whatever count) is much less than weight of equivalent count of 7.62x51,
so a grunt humping the load X miles can either carry more ammo for same weight or less weight for an equivalent count.
This weight savings also comes into play with resupply costs/shipping capacity, cost of mfg, etc.

Neither of these are particularly applicable to someone who is not a mil infantry grunt.
i.e. not real important to a civilian shooter/survivalist.

[white eagle]

lol, 458mag..

but my choice for long range is the .308. it has been proven to 800m to be effective in first round kills.. for the shorter ranges or 300m and below i use the 7.62x39mm.. i load mine with 130gr Hollow Point ammo that i swage myself. they will transfer all energy into the target and create flat disk inside the body. id much rather be able to transfer 700Ft/Lbs into the target at 300m Vs 500Ft/Lbs of the M855 that will transfer less than that in reality as at that range it will not fragment...

one better would be the 6.5 Creedmoor better at long range
goes subsonic at 1300 yds

[Mauser 98K]

i am already setup for the .308. i can get brass just about everywhere. i can find loading data for .308 while non of my books got 6.5 Creedmoor because .308 is not an oddball caliber. and the barrel will last a good long while if i do not max load the snot out of it. and i can't see 1,300m where im at, usually lucky to get 500m on a good day. to many hills and wooded areas.

[Brassduck]

in 1970 in vietnam in the middle of a fire fight damm m16 would not fire (broken fireing pin) in the middle of a sapper attack emptied a mag into a sapper he kept coming (doped to the hilt) found me an M 14 and never looked back. I just can't get comfortable with the AR platform.

[458mag]

For some reason the military went to a 38 cal sidearm during a philipino squabble at the turn of the century of some sort. The enemy would get doped up and our troops found out their side arm was woefully innafective to stop them. Shortly the army pulled their 45 colt armys out of storage and the problem was eliminated with just one slug. Of course we are talking sidearms here but I believe the 45acp 1911 platform and the 9mm would have simular comparisons.

[Lloyd Smale]

how many battles have we been in that the bad guys had Kevlar? Heck some of them couldn't afford shoes. The 556 has kept us free since viet nam and there isn't to many soldiers that are standing in line to trade there m16 for some other countrys guns. As a matter of fact even Russia has switched to a 22 cal vs of the ak47. LOTS of dead men in there graves that would argue with that Major. A mear major trying to tell the military his opinion of what a battle rifle should be is about like the mayor of our little town telling the president how he should deal with Korea. the Navy Seals are arguably the most knowlegable combatants in the world. they can choose from many different weapons. Bottom line is they use variations of the 16 in 556 more then the rest of the choices combined. Id say that says it all

[Texas by God]

I'm not a combat veteran but thanks to them I have the freedom to voice my opinion. And I will agree with what Lloyd just said.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[bruce drake]

I'm good friends with and have served alongside Lieutenant Colonel (P) Thomas P. Ehrhart when he was a Captain in the same brigade I was in. He now is a senior instructor at our National Training Center in Fort Irwin where we put our Army Brigades through their capstone training events prior to overseas deployments. I agreed with his SAMS article when he wrote it in 2009 and I agree with it still today 9 years later.

And his personal rifles of choice are chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and 6XC.

And the military does listen to the guys who actually slog through the mud as this news article will espouse.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23/ussocom-adopts-6-5-cm/

[Rick R]

Not my lane as I spent 30 years as an LEO, no military.
IMHO The young shooter blasting away at 25 yards beside you with an AR/AK is at least a shooter and not playing video games or marching in a pink fuzzy hat protesting your Constitutional Rights. He/she is a young’n possibly with their first rifle and needs nurturing not scorn.

It was my understanding that the Air Force adopted the M-16 for their security people about the same time the Army and Marines were trying to shore up the ARVN. Guys I’ve known over the years who were there said that when you handed a typical ARVN soldier an M-14 and 200 rounds of ammo he just toppled over or didn’t go very far. So a smaller rifle seemed like a good thing. Add in the accelerated rate that the M-16 was adopted and fielded and it’s amazing there weren’t more American deaths. But 40 years later we know a lot more and the platform and ammo are pretty mature. US soldiers and our allies have put a LOT of our enemies in the ground with a “varmint” cartridge.
I have a 20” AR that is more accurate than any boltgun I’ve ever shot. ARs are very prominent in the winners circle at Camp Perry. I’ve taken deer with my various AR rifles without drama. But I took my deer last year with a .45-70 and a cast boolit. ;)

Soldiers in the field will be wanting more effective weapons even after we begin issuing “Phased Plasma Rifles in the 20 watt range” because you can’t kill someone who is trying to kill you fast enough. The AR-10 / M-14 / FAL are big rifles that shoot heavy over powerful ammo and the M-16 could use an update beyond creating over pressure 5.56 rounds. Maybe someone needs to develop a whole new AR-12.5 rifle midway between an AR-10 and AR-15 with a 6 to 7mm cartridge that makes sense?

[bruce drake]

We have been developing the new rifles in the middle range of calibers. 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor are just 4 of the cartridges that have been developed for use in the AR15 and AR10 rifles. Of course, the 6.5x55 and the 6.5x50 cartridges have been in use for more than a 100 hundred years each in bolt rifles...But Americans have a hard time accepting a cartridge designed on other continents some times...

[WILCO]

IMHO The young shooter blasting away at 25 yards beside you with an AR/AK is at least a shooter and not playing video games or marching in a pink fuzzy hat protesting your Constitutional Rights. He/she is a young’n possibly with their first rifle and needs nurturing not scorn.

Agreed. I make time for new shooters. Gives me an opportunity to preach the love of military surplus and MILSPEC AR's.

[Drydock]

Individual weapons are one thing. BUt in terms of line infantry, well, since the US Civil War, the vast majority of casualtys are caused by artillery/detached ordnance (air dropped). Infantry weapons rarely engage beyond 200 yards, and then mainly in suppression. Infantry act as noisy lethal bulwarks to direct opposition into kill zones for artillery and air dropped weapons. Certian conditions, urban combat, heavy vegitation, result in more individual engagements, but this comes at close range (I believe the average engagement distance for the last 40 years has been 75 feet!) Thus the adoption of intermediate calibers.

Spec ops have different requirements, and always have, but line infantry are well served by the 5.56. "In Range" TV has an entertaining series called WWSD (What Would Stoner Do) on modern developments in the AR platform.

[Walkingwolf]

I want to point out that any cartridge does not put bodies in the ground by itself, that is mostly done with training, intelligence, and logistics. And probably the biggest superior air power. The A10 WartHog probably deserves a lot of credit, but even it relies on a pilot.

Here is what I think, the troops always want something better, and some will always have gripes. Ground pounders equipment is not as important as the high tech soldiers, planes, copters, tanks, drones, ships. I will concede that a trooper can carry more ammo of 5.56, but he WILL without a doubt shoot twice as much for the same result. 200 rounds is not but a pea in a bucket when fired full auto.

Put a 110 year old grandma in the fastest formula one race car, and she will still finish last.

[Drydock]

One of the reasons the Army no longer issues full auto rifles, and has not for 30 years. 3 round burst is all you get. Most infantry would be served well with simple semi auto, with FA reserved for Squad Leaders.

[Omega]

One of the reasons the Army no longer issues full auto rifles, and has not for 30 years. 3 round burst is all you get. Most infantry would be served well with simple semi auto, with FA reserved for Squad Leaders.
I don't know about the rest of the army, but my last unit got rid of the 3-round burst M4s. All ours are select fire, the 3-round ones were just plain dumb. They would always cycle 3 rounds, so if you only fired one round, it would fire two next time you pulled the trigger, and only one if you got two off.

[EDG]

That depends on who has been shooting at you and what they have been shooting at you with.


Unless you’ve personally carried and used one in combat, I don’t much care about your opinion.

[Rick Hodges]

Everyone talks about the lack of stopping power of the 5.56, yet I know a few guys who are walking around today after taking multiple hits with an AK's 30 cal. rounds.

My family's insurance man, when I was a kid, got stitched with a MG34 as he crossed an open field...took 7 hits from his left thigh, across his abdomen, chest and right shoulder on the way to dropping a grenade on the gun and crew. He won a silver star and purple heart for that stunt and lived to sell us insurance. Do you suppose if one of that machine gun crew would have lived they would be complaining about the lack of stopping power of the 8mm Mauser?

Watch the video and read about Sgt. Benavidez in the post here.....do you think there might be some NVA wondering about the stopping power of their weapons?

Sometimes people are just hard to put down.


The fact is the AR platform in 5.56 has served as the front line rifle of the US armed forces for over 50 yrs. It is effective enough that it is the most widely used rifle and caliber in the free world. It is so effective that our adversaries adopted a cartridge that duplicates its performance.

[leebuilder]

I have read this post since the start.
I served and I preferred to carry a 12GA, no matter where you go in this world everyone knows and understands the sound of a 12GA pump action being racked.
I like the 5.56 and it has limitations but it's history keeps it in service.
Once during a team fire and movement match with steel plates as targets that would/should/hopefully fall, we were soundly beaten by the Canadian Rangers and their 303's, we were still plinking away when they were at the mess on the first beer.
5.56 lacks hitting power!!!!!

[303Guy]

I went hunting with a guy who had survived three AK47 hits to the chest. The first one put him down and the terrorist stood over him (or near him) and fired two more into his chest.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup lots (well not some much anymore) of American soldiers came back from the war with 857 and 7.7 jap rounds that wounded. Lots of japs and germans wounded by the 06 too. Some of this is silly. Put a 556 in the chest of a man and theres a pretty slim chance hes going to survive. Put a 458 mag in the leg and chances are hes going to get a purple heart and be able to brag about it.
The fact is the AR platform in 5.56 has served as the front line rifle of the US armed forces for over 50 yrs. It is effective enough that it is the most widely used rifle and caliber in the free world. It is so effective that our adversaries adopted a cartridge that duplicates its performance. yes sir that's a fact. Its also a fact that even when given a choice many of our special service guys still grab a 5.56. ANY battle weapon is a compromise of some sort. Even if there is a SLIGHTLY better option do you realize what it would cost to rearm our entire military with them?? Like rick said the funny thing is that Russia who citizens don't have a choice or say in how there money is spent did make a big change and what did they do? They went with a round about identical to the one we already have. Why? Because it works. Not because we have a mental block against a round designed by a foreign government. If you believe that then tell me why we now arm our troops with 9mm's. Seems to me to be just the opposite today. Foreign countrys haven't or don't see the need to waste there money trying to improve on whats proven to work and work well. Want a more powerful military spend the money building another carrier and some planes to put on the deck. build better troop vehicles that are more resistant to ied's spend a fraction of what it would cost to rearm our frontline troops and keep them in boot camp one more week to learn to use what they already have!!!!!!!! Whats tragic isn't the weapon we issue to our troops but the fact that they go from mommas little boy to getting thrown into a gun fight with only 8 weeks of training and half of that is learning how to march, salute and wear there uniform and how to act around girls and gays!
Everyone talks about the lack of stopping power of the 5.56, yet I know a few guys who are walking around today after taking multiple hits with an AK's 30 cal. rounds.

My family's insurance man, when I was a kid, got stitched with a MG34 as he crossed an open field...took 7 hits from his left thigh, across his abdomen, chest and right shoulder on the way to dropping a grenade on the gun and crew. He won a silver star and purple heart for that stunt and lived to sell us insurance. Do you suppose if one of that machine gun crew would have lived they would be complaining about the lack of stopping power of the 8mm Mauser?

Watch the video and read about Sgt. Benavidez in the post here.....do you think there might be some NVA wondering about the stopping power of their weapons?

Sometimes people are just hard to put down.


The fact is the AR platform in 5.56 has served as the front line rifle of the US armed forces for over 50 yrs. It is effective enough that it is the most widely used rifle and caliber in the free world. It is so effective that our adversaries adopted a cartridge that duplicates its performance.

[robert12345]

I've never been much of a war booster.
The majority of war's victims are not soldiers; playing the game..;

they are moms, dads, grandma, grandpa, ......and the little kids who get in the way, ....or, who are shot down in revenge by angry soldiers. (It matters not which side....)
.
.
Setting that aside, the Geneva Convention prohibits expanding bullets.
.
.

The original 55 gr ball ammunition in the 5.56 was slightly unstable in 1/12 twist, and... a little known fact, was that the lead core was melted by the hot powder gas when the bullet exited the muzzle.

On impact at high velocity, the 55 gr. bullet flattened, then broke apart at it's cannalure.

.
.
The newer 62 grain m885 ( green tip )has a lead base, a steel anvil, and a hollow capped point.
On impact, (at high velocity), the hollow capped point goes flat, the lighter steel anvil ......slows.... faster than the lead base.

The soft lead base does then smash against the steel anvil, and the bullet pops open at it's cannalure.
.
.
Military studies concluded that folks in the Middle east were too malnourished, and too thin to cause the m885 bullet to expand ( along with newer shorter gun barrels, and resulting lower velocitys ) so two new bullets are in the pipeline.

For the Army:
The newest bullet is M885a1, it is an all copper hollow point, with a ...... "Remington type," .... bronze point over the hollow.
Idea is the bullet will expand on impact,, at the surface entry, even on small bodied people, and at low (short barrel )muzzle velocities..

For The marine Corps:
They are moving toward a bonded lead core, copper jacketed hollow point bullet , virtually identical to the newer big game bullets. (Trophy bonded hollow point )

For the new 9mm pistol, a hollow point is in the works.
.
.
So much for the Geneva Convention.

[Bigslug]

It's the Hague Accords, not Geneva, but at any rate, all the non-expanding bullet decree did was immediately spur worldwide engineering of fully-jacketed projectiles that tumble and often fragment on impact, the effect of which is that pretty much everybody rejected the spirit of the law while obeying the letter.

That being the case, use of traditional soft and hollow points merely calls a spade a spade. The rationale behind requiring infantrymen to poke clean holes with their rifles in the same enemy that moments before they were trying to vaporize with artillery has always seemed more than a little tweaked to me.

[Larry Gibson]

"The original 55 gr ball ammunition in the 5.56 was slightly unstable in 1/12 twist, and... a little known fact, was that the lead core was melted by the hot powder gas when the bullet exited the muzzle."

Gotta say I've never heard that one before.

[Love Life]

I heard that the original powder used in the 5.56 used powdered tyrannosaurus bones as part of its make up. Powdered tyrannosaurus bone burns at 25,000,000 degrees which is hot enough to melt the lead in the core of the bullet.

[shortlegs]

Wow guess my cast boolits are melting in my barrel. Wonder why they dont smear lead everywhere?

[RU shooter]

I heard that the original powder used in the 5.56 used powdered tyrannosaurus bones as part of its make up. Powdered tyrannosaurus bone burns at 25,000,000 degrees which is hot enough to melt the lead in the core of the bullet.
That's why you gotta use gas Checks even with jacketed bullets ! Don't want that stream of liquified lead plasma to just go flying into your flash hider . Maybe that's why they used the pickle fork type ? Easier to get the lead out of it ........;)

[AggieEE]

Larry Gibson, I agree I never hear about the lead base melting. IIRC the way Mr. Stoner designed the M16 was with a 1-14 twist so that the 55gr. bullet was marginal stable. I believe Gen. LaMay wanted the 1-12 because the bullet was totally unstable in arctic temps. I don't remember what year but a Handloader's Digest, I think, had a article about bullet stability. The 147 gr 7.62x51 would turn base first after about +-24 inches. The 5.56 was almost instantaneous. Even the 7.62x39 would go base first after a distance. The only one that stayed point on was a 30-30 soft point. The mushroom kept it headed straight. Precision Shooting had an article one time about "sleepy bullets". The article stated that basically all bullets yaw on exit from the muzzle. How fast the bullets went into a non-yaw condition, went to sleep, was a function of twist and velocity They were looking at minimum twist for a given velocity where everything is stable for the distance they were shooting. They were also using light for caliber bullets.

[Mauser 98K]

if it is the 30-30 soft point im thinking of it was more or less a jacketed round nose with exposed lead. the reason they would do so well with the slower twist was that the center of gravity was more or less centered and there was no heavy end or light end.. if the projectile velocity is too low or the rotational velocity is too slow then most bullets will tumble as the heavy end always wants to go forward. that is why for a subsonic bullet you want a lead round nose as they are the most stable at lower velocities. it is simple physics and is like the arrow or dart effect. the tip of the arrow or dart is always the heaviest end and the lighter portion acts as a stabilizer to keep the heavy end going forward. the same thing happens with bullets that are traveling too slow or rotating too slow, the heavy end will try and go forward.. rotational velocity is directly coupled with linear acceleration of the projectile, the faster the slug is driven the more spin that is imparted upon it by the twist of the barrel. but as speed drops so does rotational velocity and so the bullets gets all wonky in flight.

[Bigslug]

That's why you gotta use gas Checks even with jacketed bullets ! Don't want that stream of liquified lead plasma to just go flying into your flash hider . Maybe that's why they used the pickle fork type ? Easier to get the lead out of it ........;)

But is this plasma rifle phased and in the 40-watt range?

I got to sit in on an AR/5.56 gelatin shoot in which we had everything from a 24" pseudo-sniper to the little 11" SMG. I forget the exact range to the blocks, but probably the FBI standard - close. The interesting thing about it was that as the barrels got longer and the velocities faster, the penetration of the military spec FMJ's DECREASED because the tumble-and-fragment effect was more violent. The slugs yaw and tear apart at the cannelure but on the shorter barrels, they would mostly just yaw, swap ends, and sometimes start travelling backwards. As I recall, the stated threshold for M193 coming apart was somewhere around the 100-120 yard mark out of 14-20" barrels.

The problem with all this stuff is that the desired bullet/rifle combo will have an effective range of 6,000 yards, weigh less than an I-Phone, kick like a Daisy Red Ryder but be much less hard to cock, travel to the enemy guided by GPS, dodging around baby carriages and little old ladies, penetrate nine feet of granite cover, to liquefy an entire adult African elephant to the point its DNA cannot be identified, and be stopped by a single sheet of wet newspaper on the exiting side.

Acceptance of the laws of physics is what's often lacking.

[Mauser 98K]

well. im not looking for the perfect platform for others, im looking for the perfect one for me and my AO that i can effectively use. upwards of 100m-150m ill go with the 7.62x39 and my home brew ammo. if i want to shoot 200m and beyond ill get Vera.

but im not sure the "ideal weapon" even exist. everyone has their own opinions on that subject as to what constitutes the "ideal weapon". but one must take into consideration, yes you can carry 2x-3x the ammo with the 5.56 as you can with the larger .308. but if you must fire 2x or 3x as many rounds to achieve the same objective then the loadout difference becomes null. or what if the target is beyond 300m? that is a must take into consideration here in the USA. there is a lot of old hunting rifles out there, there is also a lot of wide open spaces. during a hypothetical collapse there will be idiots trying to take what others have. but there will be no CAS like we keep doing in Afghanistan when our weapons will not reach. there will be no artillery support and no drones. there will be no option to keep the enemy pinned down and call in the coordinates. you will then have to rely on either a retreat (if possible) or hitting a vital spot when the projectile has dropped below the fragmentation velocity, if the round will even reach. what i have seen is too much reliance on the cool wonder toys in the modern military, and it has put a Band-Aid on the fallacy of the 5.56 platform. if we cannot hit them then we just call it in and let the fly boys bomb the snot out of them. but in the civilian world, when the wonder toys are gone, then the entire world changes. then it is the guy who can put lead on target consistently that will come out on top. im sorry, but i just do not see the 5.56 being a battlefield superiority weapon during a hypothetical collapse when there is too many open spaces and large caliber rifles..

[Love Life]

5.56 will kill you stone cold dead well beyond 300 meters. Humans are a wild card. I’ve seen them drop dead right there from one center mass shot with 5.56, and I’ve seen them run several streets after getting hit with a burst from from the SAW.

I’ve also seen the same with 7.62X51.

Nobody runs from the Ma Deuce, lol.

[Mauser 98K]

Or the barret. Lol

[Lloyd Smale]

me either and find it VERY doubtful that the lead melted. Ive recovered cast 223 bullets from an ar15 shot into a snow bank at 2800 fps and they showed no sign of melting the base. Add to that the alloy I use is hard so it would melt easier then a pure lead core in a jacketed bullet. Ive also recovered MANY 55 grain ball bullets with exposed lead cores shot at full power with 844 and 846 and none of them showed any melting of the base.
"The original 55 gr ball ammunition in the 5.56 was slightly unstable in 1/12 twist, and... a little known fact, was that the lead core was melted by the hot powder gas when the bullet exited the muzzle."

Gotta say I've never heard that one before.

[Gray Fox]

I'm as much of a chair-borne ballistic nut as anyone else, but I also had 25 years in the Army and shot on a bunch of unit level rifle and pistol teams, coupled with the obligatory year in 'Nam where I occasionally walked platoon point positon, even as an intel weenie. Within that context it still seems to me that for short to moderate distance shooting with lethality, that the ballistics of the old Jack O'Conner .270 130 grain load sighted 3" high at 100 yards will do most of what anyone needs for sporting or military tasks. I can still shoot to center of mass within that weapon's useable range with an aperture sight and tri-focals and don't have to worry about dead batteries. I guess that a Ruger stainless 18" barrel scout rifle in 7mm-'08 would do that job just fine. GF

[303Guy]

I've picked up bullet jackets when operating the target trenches. Just empty jackets. I have an empty 303 jacket too that I fired. The lead cores melted on impact and the jackets were falling into the trench. This kind of thing may give the impression that the core melts in the bore where there is an obvious source of heat. In actuality, the heat to melt the core is being carried by the bullet in the form of kinetic energy.

An empty 303 jacket.
https://s19.postimg.cc/6ew1cc977/MVC-201F_(2).jpg (https://postimages.org/)

An unmelted boolit base.
https://s19.postimg.cc/qzfizvif7/214_Pig_Gun_20gr_2205_Dacron.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Mauser 98K]

actually this is usually what happens when the core is not bonded to the jacket. sometimes what can happen is that the bullet will hit the target and strip the jacket off, and being the jacket has no real mass itself it deforms a lot less and the core just goes splat leaving the jacket behind. this is a very common thing if the jacket is aluminum or other material that will not bond to the core.

[Mauser 98K]

but this right here is one reason why the skinnies in the Mog could not hit anything with the AK..
220724

[303Guy]

Yeah, that empty jacket probably just lost the core. The berm empty jackets were melted out though. The core had to come out the base and being boat tails the only way to get out was being liquid. Of course, the jackets were deformed from impact into gritty soil.

High speed impact videos show the lead going splat and there is some liquid but not all the lead melts.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Yeah, that empty jacket probably just lost the core. The berm empty jackets were melted out though. The core had to come out the base and being boat tails the only way to get out was being liquid. Of course, the jackets were deformed from impact into gritty soil.

High speed impact videos show the lead going splat and there is some liquid but not all the lead melts.With high speed impact it's not necessary to become a liquid, the lead is soft enough to act as a liquid *relative to the brass and surface* under high heat and pressure. It's just deformation. Also note that the impact and pressure spike will cause an increase in heat through friction.

[Mr_Sheesh]

When you swage Copper, Brass, or Lead they don't melt; They sure deform, though! Same on bullet impact, inertia & the force of impact "swage" the heck out of the bullet...

[303Guy]

In the video I was watching there was what appeared to be mostly plastic deformation but some impacts showed distinct liquid from the nose area of the bullet.

Any melting would be the conversion of kinetic energy into heat energy on impact. There would of course be considerable energy dissipation in deformation and transfer to the impacted plate. In the case of the 7.62 bullets striking the berm, there would be energy dissipation into the berm itself. I suppose the core only has to go plastic with some melting (or maybe none) to completely escape the jacket.

I have a picture of a boolit deformed on impacting sand. No melting, just plastic flow.

https://s19.postimg.cc/jho9bmblv/SMOKELESS_PPCB_BUMP_UP_007_(3).jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/evs539q2n/)

[Lloyd Smale]

heres what nosler says about bullets melting. Add to the fact its only in the barrel for one fifteeth of a second that as soon as it leaves the barrel its being cooled but the air makes it pretty tough to believe a core can melt. Considering it has to heat through the copper jacket and get the lead core up to over 600 degrees in a 1/15000 of a second makes it an impossibility. If it did youd see shotgun like patterns on a 25 yard target and your bullets wouldn't even pattern let alone group. Now were talking 3000 fps in a military rifle (06,308,223) Ive got a 220 swift that adds a good 1000 fps on to that and shoots sub moa at a 100 yards. Why aren't the bullets melting in that gun? My 7stw uses LOTS of powder and pushes 150s to 3500 plus fps. If anything was going to melt a bullet that gun would and it do shoots sub moa. Nothing but urban legends. Another good example is my 50 beo when I use lilgun. 10 rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger and you can about light a cigarette off the barrel but if I shoot 10 that fast and heat the barrel up reload and shoot a 3 shot group fairly quickly with lead bullets or plated it will easily do 1.5 inch at a 100 yards. I can see flame cutting do to gas pressures but bullets don't melt. I cant imagine the temps it would take to melt lead in 1/15000 of a second but it must rival the temp at ground zero of a hydrogen bomb!!!.
The polymer tip contained in Nosler’s AccuBond®, AccuBond® LR, Ballistic Tip®, E-Tip® and Varmageddon® bullets have three main functions. First, it is meant to maintain sharp tip shape and not deform which is common on lead tipped bullets. Second, because of this sharp spitzer nose, the ballistic coefficient is improved for better long range accuracy. Third, the polymer tip acts as a wedge upon bullet impact which initiates expansion as the bullet penetrates; maximizing dependable and reliable would channel destruction. The tip does not melt away from the bullet while traveling through the barrel or before terminal impact. Based on a bullet traveling 3000 fps, it only takes 1/15000th of a second for a bullet to travel through a 24” barrel so there is little time for heat to affect the integrity of the bullet in any way. Most often, the tip “washes” away along with a partial amount of the nose of the bullet during expansion.

[303Guy]

I can see flame cutting do to gas pressures but bullets don't melt. I can't imagine the temps it would take to melt lead in 1/15000 of a second but it must rival the temp at ground zero of a hydrogen bomb!!!.
This is exactly right. The only way to melt the lead core would be to suddenly stop that bullet so that the kinetic energy is converted into heat energy. That assumes the bullet has enough kinetic energy after losses.

[Texas by God]

I guess that molten lead core is the reason a 22-250 will shoot through steel quite easily.......

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[458mag]

I have a savage 22-250 with a 1in 12 twist that if I load 40 grain thin jackets and push em hard some of them will vaporize into a grey colored vapor about 20 feet in front of the muzzle. Thought I was shooting one hole groups there until I realized what was going on.

[Mauser 98K]

it is not melting, it is the malleability of the lead. at high velocity the molecular cohesion of the lead molecules are not strong enough to prevent the kinetic energy from shifting them around. what appears to be a liquid state is more or less an illusion caused by the forces imparted upon the bullet as it strikes an object. in order for the lead to melt the entire core would have to end up over 621.4°F..

[one-eyed fat man]

Been around the M16 since 1968. I am of the opinion Stoner got more right with his version than the Marine Corps fixed with the A2. In RVN it was a 6.5 pound rifle that would let you hit a man about as far as you had any business shooting at one. Back then M193 ball from a 20 inch barrel made some gruesome holes too. Now an M4 comes within ounces of weighing as much as an M1 Garand and the short barrel works against ammo the depends on velocity foremost for its effectiveness.

Despite all that, the deadliest thing in an infantry squad is the push to talk switch on the radio. You should not shoot anyone you can get someone else to shoot for you. Fire that rifle and you immediately announce to all that you are there. Call in indirect fire and any survivors will be left to puzzle out who, if any one, saw them and called it in, and where they could possibly be.

For the most part, I was pleased with the terminal effects of M377 canister.

220977

[M-Tecs]

Been around the M16 since 1968. I am of the opinion Stoner got more right with his version than the Marine Corps fixed with the A2. In RVN it was a 6.5 pound rifle that would let you hit a man about as far as you had any business shooting at one. Back then M193 ball from a 20 inch barrel made some gruesome holes too. Now an M4 comes within ounces of weighing as much as an M1 Garand and the short barrel works against ammo the depends on velocity foremost for its effectiveness.

Despite all that, the deadliest thing in an infantry squad is the push to talk switch on the radio. You should not shoot anyone you can get someone else to shoot for you. Fire that rifle and you immediately announce to all that you are there. Call in indirect fire and any survivors will be left to puzzle out who, if any one, saw them and called it in, and where they could possibly be.

For the most part, I was pleased with the terminal effects of M377 canister.

220977

Enjoyed your post. That is not the first time I have heard "You should not shoot anyone you can get someone else to shoot for you."

[303Guy]

it is not melting, it is the malleability of the lead. at high velocity the molecular cohesion of the lead molecules are not strong enough to prevent the kinetic energy from shifting them around. what appears to be a liquid state is more or less an illusion caused by the forces imparted upon the bullet as it strikes an object. in order for the lead to melt the entire core would have to end up over 621.4°F..
Which is what one can see in the video I watched. Thing is, the core has to stop dead for the kinetic energy to be converted to heat. A lead boolit does not stop dead, it deforms and flows and splashes out so the energy is merely being redirected. Of course there will be heating in the process but not enough to actually melt the lead. A jacketed bullet on the other hand can contain the core thus stopping it suddenly. Will that actually liquify the core? Well, those jackets falling into the target trench sure looked like the core had melted out and that is what I assumed had occurred. I still haven't done the calculation.

Ok so the kinetic energy of a 147gr 7.62 bullet at 2700 fps is 3250 Joules.
Energy to melt the core is around 2300 Joules. So stopping that bullet suddenly will more than melt it. But that energy does not all go into heating the core.

[Lloyd Smale]

if they melt show me the money. The government and ballisticians studied every aspect of 5.56 performance and this is the first ive ever heard of melting cores. Show me some hard proof of where you gleamed this knowledge. I'm not being sarcastic. I just want to see some real scientific proof.

[Thundarstick]

Ok, to the original SHTF situation? Why, in a SHTF situation are you shooting at someone at a long range? Is it just too announce your presence and be picked off by the other guys, or are you a long range sniper type hoping to take from the other guy? Just wondering why would long range matter in SHTF one man against the world imaginary scenarios?
The statement about not shooting some one you can have killed by someone else is very true. If you are the lone ranger, as soon as that shot breaks everyone in a mile knows theis a guy with a gun and he has something worth talking, or he wouldn't be shooting at us!

That melting core thing has GOT to be the funniest thing I've ever heard in all my years of shooting. I recovered a jacket just like the one pictured from a white tailed deer that my son hit with a strafing shot from close range, o the rest of the bullet was there to, just as dust! I thought everyone that hunts knows that non bonded boat tails are notorious for jacket shedding! I've seen a million jacket sheds just like the one pictured where the jacket slows down but the core don't. I'm still laughing at that one!

Apples and oranges with the SHTF vs military use of small arms. Yep, I've got a cashe of stuff nobody else has, so I'm going to start shooting at them from 800 yards out?

[Mauser 98K]

Ok, to the original SHTF situation? Why, in a SHTF situation are you shooting at someone at a long range? Is it just too announce your presence and be picked off by the other guys, or are you a long range sniper type hoping to take from the other guy? Just wondering why would long range matter in SHTF one man against the world imaginary scenarios?
The statement about not shooting some one you can have killed by someone else is very true. If you are the lone ranger, as soon as that shot breaks everyone in a mile knows the is a guy with a gun and he has something worth talking, or he wouldn't be shooting at us!

the idea is to engage a threat as far out as you can effectively hit so that he bleeds out b4 he even gets close and his chances of hitting you are diminished. if you can engage at ranges beyond the other guys range then there is not much the other guy can do except do area fire. it is a one tracked and limited mind who thinks that everything is going to be at 20feet or less in a SHTF situation. im like i got a frickin gun with a range of 800m, why the hell would i get into snuggling range if i can take them from the next county over? i for one will not allow them to get that close if at all possible. and who said they was gonna be taking from others? is that your plan?

but unlike some idiots, who idea of combat is what they seen on the TV or in the COD games, you do not just sit in one spot and spray rounds at the target, you relocate after every shot if possible. who the heck is just gonna sit there in one spot and wait for their location to be pinpointed? only the untrained trigger happy cowboy. and you also forget about suppressed weapons. a properly suppressed weapon can be effective at 300m and there is no shot to tell the other idiots there is a guy shooting. 90% of the time the target does not know what side of cover to jump behind.

but you never fight on equal terms. a weapon with a long range is many times more effective at shorter ranges than a short range weapon system, and the kinetic transfer is devastating. but i intend to be as unfair as i can possibly be if the SHTF. there is no such thing as a weapon system that is an overmatch. why the heck everyone gets it in their head that they need to be limited to the OPFORs limits is beyond me. if the enemy can only get you at 200m then you engage at 300m. make it so that he cannot do **** to you but you can dominate him. know your enemy and learn his weaknesses and learn to use them against him.

[303Guy]

It was about the hot burning propellant gases melting the core in the bore. I mentioned that I had experienced jackets landing in the pit after striking the berm. I brought up the question of whether the kinetic energy was enough to melt the lead core on impact which it seems it is. Whether it does melt or not would depend I suppose. While we know that an unbonded core can and sometimes does leave the jacket behind, that does not explain an fmj jacked leaving the core behind since the opening is at the rear. I had assumed that the empty jackets were the result of the core melting on impact (and perhaps there was some partial melting?) but it seems that plasticity of the core could be the explanation. I did show that there is more than enough kinetic energy to melt the core of a 7.62 bullet.

However, it is highly unlikely that a bullet striking flesh would come anywhere near melting its core.

Anyway, I had a look at a few high speed impact videos and it seems that mostly the lead flows under plastic deformation. But there were a few impacts that showed some liquid behaviour from the nose area on initial impact, followed by what appears to be plastic flow and shattering.

https://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs/rmrs_rp104.pdf

Thermal infra-red video and temperature sensitive paints suggested that the temperature of bullet fragments could exceed 800°C.
Melting point of lead is 327.5°C so would those fragments be molten if they were lead?

[mcdaniel.mac]

the idea is to engage a threat as far out as you can effectively hit so that he bleeds out b4 he even gets close and his chances of hitting you are diminished. if you can engage at ranges beyond the other guys range then there is not much the other guy can do except do area fire. it is a one tracked and limited mind who thinks that everything is going to be at 20feet or less in a SHTF situation. im like i got a frickin gun with a range of 800m, why the hell would i get into snuggling range if i can take them from the next county over? i for one will not allow them to get that close if at all possible. and who said they was gonna be taking from others? is that your plan?

but unlike some idiots, who idea of combat is what they seen on the TV or in the COD games, you do not just sit in one spot and spray rounds at the target, you relocate after every shot if possible. who the heck is just gonna sit there in one spot and wait for their location to be pinpointed? only the untrained trigger happy cowboy. and you also forget about suppressed weapons. a properly suppressed weapon can be effective at 300m and there is no shot to tell the other idiots there is a guy shooting. 90% of the time the target does not know what side of cover to jump behind.

but you never fight on equal terms. a weapon with a long range is many times more effective at shorter ranges than a short range weapon system, and the kinetic transfer is devastating. but i intend to be as unfair as i can possibly be if the SHTF. there is no such thing as a weapon system that is an overmatch. why the heck everyone gets it in their head that they need to be limited to the OPFORs limits is beyond me. if the enemy can only get you at 200m then you engage at 300m. make it so that he cannot do **** to you but you can dominate him. know your enemy and learn his weaknesses and learn to use them against him.How do you plan on identifying an "enemy" in this situation?

[Mauser 98K]

How do you plan on identifying an "enemy" in this situation?

there is this invention called a "scope" and another called "binoculars". it is a relatively old invention that makes things look closer than they really are. they are really neat, making it easy to tell better details about something that you normally could not see too good.

but put it this way. if they are looting and doing other stupid **** like preying on innocent people, then they are the enemy.

[mcdaniel.mac]

there is this invention called a "scope" and another called "binoculars". it is a relatively old invention that makes things look closer than they really are. they are really neat, making it easy to tell better details about something that you normally could not see too good.

but put it this way. if they are looting and doing other stupid **** like preying on innocent people, then they are the enemy.

How do you know a looter from someone picking up their own stuff through a scope?

I'm well versed in the use of a scope but unless you plan on just shooting everybody it's pretty difficult to tell friend from foe. It's not like the movies or the garbage books where the evil raiders run up flags and play heavy metal while saying "WE'RE THE BADDIES WE'RE THE BADDIES!"

[Thundarstick]

"WE'RE THE BADDIES WE'RE THE BADDIES!"
This is my point about these SHTF fantasy head games. We had a guy around here that went nuts before the y2k scare and hoarded up all kinds of stuff. Every one knew he had it because and his extended family blabbed about it all the time. Do you really think you can keep your supplies secure by yourself if starving folks know you have it? I dont buy the one man against the world bull flatulence! Communities will organise very quickly, form local governments, and protect the community. Sort of like a small country in a lawless country. If your shooting at someone at long range it will be because you are a sniper guarding a no man's land buffer zone for a said community, or are an invader intent on taking from the weaker community! Snipers are treated very badly when caught in any situation, the only thing that keeps any sniper safe is having a line to fall back to before being cut off from that safety!
As far as the 5.56? Is perfectly suitable for what it was designed for and probably isn't going away any time soon.

[mcdaniel.mac]

"WE'RE THE BADDIES WE'RE THE BADDIES!"
This is my point about these SHTF fantasy head games. We had a guy around here that went nuts before the y2k scare and hoarded up all kinds of stuff. Every one knew he had it because and his extended family blabbed about it all the time. Do you really think you can keep your supplies secure by yourself if starving folks know you have it? I dont buy the one man against the world bull flatulence! Communities will organise very quickly, form local governments, and protect the community. Sort of like a small country in a lawless country. If your shooting at someone at long range it will be because you are a sniper guarding a no man's land buffer zone for a said community, or are an invader intent on taking from the weaker community! Snipers are treated very badly when caught in any situation, the only thing that keeps any sniper safe is having a line to fall back to before being cut off from that safety!
As far as the 5.56? Is perfectly suitable for what it was designed for and probably isn't going away any time soon.Too many action movies and bad post-apocalyptic murder-pron has infected the gun and prepping communities. If everything goes to pot reality looks a lot more like "Alas, Babylon" and "The Postman" then "One Second After" or anything by the super creative pseudonym "A. American". Build strong communities instead of daydreaming about murdering hoarders of "bad guys" from the bushes.

[Multigunner]

Theres an old Twilight Zone episode about a guy showing off his fall out shelter to his neighbors, and of course when an alert comes on the radio they end up ripping the door off that shelter trying to get in.

As for bullet cores melting. A friend and I were test firing the old 55 grain FMJ at targets placed behind a stump. To see if the bullets were stopped or deflected.
A bullet passed through about three inches of wood before reaching the target a couple of feet behind the stump.

The empty jacket struck the cardboard sideways barely penetrating the surface. Not sure if it even passed through the cardboard. The core was turned into tiny droplets smaller than rat shot that peppered the paper around the indentation made by the jacket.
I remember my friend saying that it would not have even passed through a field jacket.

PS
Friction of the bullet passing through the bore heats up the core. If the bullet is not well constructed the jacket may sperate but the core remains hot for some distance so heat of compression when striking the target may be added to the heat of bore friction.

[Mauser 98K]

I'm done talking to these imbeciles about the SHTF stuff, no imagination and at just here for the sake of arguing their own opinions like they prove something. But to answer the scope question. I never said I was going to be running around sniping people for the hell of it. Stop assuming and stop putting things that don't belong in the conversation. It was all about having more range than the other guy, not about just killing indiscriminately from long range. I do not know how the conversation ended up as such except for some butthurt individuals who misunderstood the point and jumped to conclusions.

But a looter is usually an individual or group of idiots who smash in windows, attack the owner, and steal the stuff that belongs to the victim.. They do not have to shout they are the baddies or wear uniforms to be known. If I see an idiot or group of idiots dragging a owner out in the streets then hell yes I will send them to Jesus. anyone who calls themselves Americans would and should protect those who cannot protect themselves. But in a SHTF situation,within a few months most of the idiots would have killed each other off, would have been killed off, or will have starved, so those first couple of months are the most critical and where you try to blend into the background till the machine gun joes are gone.. But I don't want to hear another word from these self proclaimed experts about how everyone else is wrong because they say so..

Now let's get back to a civilized conversation that was taking place b4 the survival experts ruined it.

[Traffer]

So what is the berm made of? Are you shooting into a berm in Hawaii that is molten lava? Then MAYBE I could imagine the lead melting out at impact.

[Thundarstick]

but i know this post is going to stir up a lot of feelings in people who think the .223 is the end all of calibers. im not here to poop on anyone choice of calibers, nor am i here to poop on the AR platform. if i was given an AR-10 id be a happy camper. im just pointing out the serious limitation to the AR chambered in .223 as a killing round for a SHTF situation. the limitations have been proven in warfare and are well documented.. now if your AO is all wooded area and MOUT where you are within 200m then the .223 would probably shine, as that is what it was intended for when it was adopted during Vietnam. but if your AO has mountainous terrain or ranges greater than 200m, something with more poop downrange should be taken into consideration.


It seems you answered your own question on the first post. If you pick your weapon according to your needs, is all good. You started the SHTF stuff on the first page, what ever!

Personally, I'm a 6.5 Grendel fan boy and have more than one. The reality though is that a 5.56 will handle better than 90% of the things I would find myself needing to shoot. I just don't see where anyone can compare military need vs civilian needs, and if we find ourselves in a free for all lawless land, I bet we'll be glad for anything that shoots! If you get to pick, then pick what YOU need for the situation. Personally, I've got more than one rifle, and I'd bet you do to.

[Mauser 98K]

6.5 is a good round.. it's flat shooting and good range. and im not saying that the 5.56 is garbage either. for what it was intended for it is fine. i was just going by what the guy in the article was talking about, that after 200m-300m it is something to be left desired on rough and hilly terrain. but it is true (more or less) that most people would probably never shoot past 100m in a SHTF situation, as it will most likely be against a looter trying to break into your house or garage in the middle of the night or the idiot who comes up to you and tries to mug you. for that the 5.56 would be great, but so would a 9mm and 45ACP. i just like to keep my options open for if i have to, if the situation arises, shoot further.. but that is what i was trying to get at. i might not have said it that clearly, but that is what i was getting at.

[303Guy]

So what is the berm made of? Are you shooting into a berm in Hawaii that is molten lava? Then MAYBE I could imagine the lead melting out at impact.

It's a soil with small spherules of weathered rock. It has a name but it eludes me. Anyway, it's dry and stops bullets pretty quickly. And that's the point - stopping the bullet quickly converts its kinetic energy into heat energy. Fragments of bullet striking steel plate at an angle can be above red hot and will start fires. That's kinetic energy converted into heat energy.
For most metals, upwards of 90% of the energy dissipated during rapid plastic deformation is manifested as heat (Rogers 1979, Yildirim and others 2011), which is maintained within the bullet fragments for some period of time after impact.

laboratory studies of plastic deformation heating at less than ballistic velocities have yielded temperature rises exceeding 350 °C (Hartley and others 1986)

Just remember that heat cannot be transferred instantaneously. It just doesn't happen so shooting into molten lava will not melt lead. In fact, it will cushion the impact with a splash and the bullet will come to a halt still fairly cool. Then heat will transfer into the core by conduction and melt the lead core. Impact heating is virtually instantaneous.

Anyway, we are a bit off topic so getting back to the 5.56 NATO. What ammunition would folks be using? I would use soft points and I know the effective range is greatly increased on smaller critters.

[Lloyd Smale]

shoot some cast at steel plates. My 4570 is a good example. I can shoot pure lead bullets with 3 grains of bullseye and pick up flattened lead pieces. Shoot them at 1500 fps and you get dust. WHY? because your shooting them faster then the lead can hold together at. Jacketed bullet shed there jacket because its not bonded to the lead. Two dissimilar metals that expand at different rates. Even that said ball bullets do a commendable job of staying together. Like a previous poster said if the lead was molten it would splatter when it hit steel. How do you explain a 223 55 grain bullet making a perfect hole through 1/4 in steel plate. Is it so hot its melting its way through?? If a bullet is truly over 600 degrees (what it would take minimum to melt the lead) wouldn't it show signs of cauterizing a wound channel? Youd think minimum that youd see signs of it with a soft nose jacketed bullet that shed some of its nose. Wouldn't you also see something as fast and hot as a 257 wby shedding its core in flight? :Surely burning 3 times more powder and traveling a 1000 fps faster the core wouldnt have a chance in something like a 257 or 220 swift. Lead is heavier then steel and the melted nose would keep going and the copper jacket would be laying on the ground. Remember too that a bullet is spinning very fast as it goes to the target so would centrifugal force throw the melted lead out before the bullet arrived? How would we get nicely mushroomed bullets recovered out of animals. does the lead melt and come back together when it hits flesh? this is all so silly!

[Lloyd Smale]

most people I know and that's about 90 percent of the hunters ive had experience with around here couldnt place a kill shot on a man past a 100 yards anyway and VERY few could at 200 and that's with a good rest. Bottom line is in a shtf situation youd be smart to let someone keep on walking at 200 yards or more anyway rather then start shooting and drawing attention to yourself. Your not at war where your trying to stack up body counts. Your trying to stay alive. Best way to do that is to stay out of gun fights that aren't necessary. To me that makes a suppressed 5.56 ALOT more practical then a barrette 50bmg. I could care less if someone is looting the local food mart and am not a seal sniper that's going to set up 500 yards from the store to protect it. I'm not even going to be there in the first place. I'm going to be at home defending my family. Everyone lives in a different environment. Around here to get a 200 yard shot you going to have to set up on a road, power line, farm field or out on lake superior in a boat! Its kind of why 90 percent of the hunters are good enough past 200 yards. Most of them during hunting season are lucky if they can see a deer that's 50 yards from there stand. Lots of good calibers for the AR platform. Problem is ammo. If you can afford to buy 5000 6.5 brass and bullets and load it and keep it in stash then your doing great. But then you still have to have guns and ammo for the rest of your family. Whats a 6.5 rifle cost today? I can buy a new ar15 for 450 bucks. I can and own a half a dozen of them and LOTS of ammo that can be shared by all of them. Ive got lots of handguns too but more 9mms and 9mm ammo then the rest put together. Sure faced with a man wanting to kill me id prefer one shot out of a model 29 to any 9mm but which is more practical. I cant see my wife sharing 44 mag ammo with me or my grandkids. Heck if bigger is better then maybe my 500 linebaugh is the way to go. I could carry that and my 50ak marlin. Bottom line is if your alive 2 years after a REAL shtf situation you've not doubt got most if not all of your ammo still and you haven't pulled the trigger on anyone more then 20 yard away from you and for sure a 100 yards away. Now if you think different theres lots of sites that sell nija warrior equipment. Another downside to odd ball calibers is a guy with a ton of 5.56, 9mm and 22lr ammo has lots of barter material. Id rather trade for food then kill for it.
6.5 is a good round.. it's flat shooting and good range. and im not saying that the 5.56 is garbage either. for what it was intended for it is fine. i was just going by what the guy in the article was talking about, that after 200m-300m it is something to be left desired on rough and hilly terrain. but it is true (more or less) that most people would probably never shoot past 100m in a SHTF situation, as it will most likely be against a looter trying to break into your house or garage in the middle of the night or the idiot who comes up to you and tries to mug you. for that the 5.56 would be great, but so would a 9mm and 45ACP. i just like to keep my options open for if i have to, if the situation arises, shoot further.. but that is what i was trying to get at. i might not have said it that clearly, but that is what i was getting at.

[Mauser 98K]

i just couldn't live with myself if i couldn't hit something past 100m. im an accuracy nut and if the rifle won't hold 1 MOA or less then i don't like it and it drives me nuts.

but speaking of SHTF situations that a lot have probably not considered and that would tell how bad it would get real fast. how many here remember when the EBT card system went down? https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/national-international/EBT-Card-Food-Stamps--227525591.html?amp=y

it was in 17 states and was only about a day or two but the welfare garbage who depends on the cards for everything didn't take any time to start their looting and robbing. muggings in that short span skyrocketed and a lot of stores were looted and robbed.. that was only about a 48hr period. now multiply that by a total collapse where the things stop working completely, which could easily happen if we got EMP attacked or something else happened to the power grid. the inner city would turn into a meat grinder real fast. those wastes of skin who depend on the system would immediately revert to their jungle tribal warfare mentality and start looting and mugging people on a massive scale. anyone caught in the middle would be in a bad way. which brings me to my other points..

how many here have food storage? can you effectively protect that storage? if there are a lot of looters and muggers then you will most likely have to defend your stuff from them, this is especially true if you live in city limits. the problem with this is that if you start killing the attackers then others will know that you have something to protect and will most likely hit you from a distance when you come outside one day and then just walk in and take your stuff. you cannot just scare them off either as they would know you have something worth protecting. also where are you going to put the bodies of the attackers? you could go back to the old castle days where they would be under siege from an opposing force.. bodies laying around have a bad tendency to draw flies and pollute the ground water and ground around them. not going to get to the smell. the flies can also spread disease. they would either lob them out of the castle with a catapult or trebuchet or pile them up and burn them. being most people do not have the means to fling them out of their AO, burning or burying would be the only way. too many bodies buried will poison the ground and water table. burning makes smoke and can been seen for miles and will most likely draw in more idiots. it will be a never ending cycle. sure you can burn them at night, but then you run into light from the fire and the smell itself.. that is one thing to consider.

the other things to consider is this.. how many here have generators for a emergency situation? i know a lot of people who say they will just use their generator in a SHTF situation. there is several problems with this idea. one is the smell of exhaust and gasoline. the smell would not really present itself as too big a problem as most generators are noisy. they are dam loud.. most of the standard generators that most people have run at 3,600rpm and can be heard for several miles on a cool quiet night. this itself would tell every baddie in the AO that there is someone out there with a generator so maybe they have food and other supplies too. so that there will bring in the looters and muggers there. and with several days of starving belly you best friend and family can turn onto your worst enemy too. so that there must be taken into consideration when picking those who you tell what you have. but back to the generator and electricity backup systems..

a lot of people will get it in their head that being the generator is noisy and needs fuel, ill just use solar power.. that would actually be a lot better but also has its problems.. lets say the power grid is out. no lights anywhere. you have your trusty solar or other backup systems so that you can run your lights and freezer/fridge.. how is that house going to look to a bad guy who is hungry? they will be drawn to the lights of your house like a moth... then you have idiots to contend with.

and how many here think they are going to just disappear and live off the land? sure you can hunt and fish, but how many other people have this same idea? you will be lucky to not get shot by someone else wanting that deer or fish you just bagged. and think how small the animal populations will get as soon as people start hunting them..within a month or less there will be no critters to hunt. this is why the old Native American tribes were nomadic, they would move where the food was. but then you risk running across others in your travels, as which was very common in the old hunter gather days, and those lead to looting other tribes and possibly becoming food yourself.

and how many here think they are just going to plow up their land and grow their own food? talk to some of the older folks who lived in the depression about what happens to crops unattended.. they magically pick themselves and you are left with nothing. it also will tell people that there are people living in the area that might have things they can take..

but "what caliber i have" is the least of your worries in a true SHTF collapse of society. that is why you do not live in city limits if at all possible, as those will be the first places to burn to the ground. think back to the LA Riots and multiply that x1000 for a good idea of the violence in the streets when the idiots start getting hungry. but the part where you will still have most of your load is a load of malarkey. when things collapse (not a matter of if, but when) most people will have to defend their stuff at least once. there is no way around this.. starvation has a tendency to destroy any resemblance of civilization. after 2-3 days a lot of people would kill their own grandmother for food. i have went 3-4 days without food and ill tell you now, things you would normally not consider start to look like a real good idea, including cannibalism. so man will hunt man for food.

but do not think you will get out of this because you are harmless or because you are prepared. most people will have to leave their houses and a lot of their stash behind. it does not matter how prepared you are or how much ammo and food you have, you cannot fend against hundreds or thousands of starving people wanting a piece of the pie, and there will be millions across the country.. i found out a long time ago that most of us will not survive a real collapse. there are just too many idiots who are not prepared and who rely on the system for their survival. these are the entitlement idiots, and they will think they are entitled to your stuff. there is no way around this fact, they will come for your stuff if they know you are there. if there is a house there then they will be there eventually. and they will go door to door in most places and if they feel they can get away with it then they will kick in the door and take your stuff.. i laugh at most people who think they will not have to get their hands dirty in a SHTF situation. that is only wishful thinking. you have not seen desperate till they start starving.

but b4 anyone ask me about what im planning on doing. i do not know. every trigger is different and causes a different chain of events. if the situation is fluid then you become fluid. it moves you move. we will just have to burn that bridge when it happens.

[303Guy]

Like a previous poster said if the lead was molten it would splatter when it hit steel. How do you explain a 223 55 grain bullet making a perfect hole through 1/4 in steel plate. Is it so hot its melting its way through?? If a bullet is truly over 600 degrees (what it would take minimum to melt the lead) wouldn't it show signs of cauterizing a wound channel? Youd think minimum that youd see signs of it with a soft nose jacketed bullet that shed some of its nose. Wouldn't you also see something as fast and hot as a 257 wby shedding its core in flight? :Surely burning 3 times more powder and traveling a 1000 fps faster the core wouldnt have a chance in something like a 257 or 220 swift. Lead is heavier then steel and the melted nose would keep going and the copper jacket would be laying on the ground. Remember too that a bullet is spinning very fast as it goes to the target so would centrifugal force throw the melted lead out before the bullet arrived? How would we get nicely mushroomed bullets recovered out of animals. does the lead melt and come back together when it hits flesh? this is all so silly!
The lead core only melts if the bullet stops suddenly. Like when it hits hard soil or a steel plate. It is nowhere near molten during its flight. Warm to hot maybe from its passage through the air, not from powder heating. Remember the SR73 Blackbird canopy gets so hot you can't touch it. In fact, the SR73 is painted black to radiate the heat of friction through air. Ok so a bullet doesn't fly quite as fast but it does lose velocity as it travels and that loss is in the form of heat and the pressure wave.

A 223 bullet punching a hole in steel is not being stopped suddenly so it won't melt, or if it does it will be too late for the steel to resist it. I have punched holes in steel plate with a high velocity cast boolit.

There is no significant heating of the bullet by the burning powder gases in the bore. The old 303 MkVII ammo burned very hot yet the cad wad behind the bullet doesn't scorch.

I once recovered a bullet fired into polyester type bunched up rag and it melted itself to the rag. Other bullets actually stopped in the bore from jacket heating and expanding (very small powder charges). Once they cooled they just dropped out. These bullets had heat scorching. So bullet jackets do warm up in the bore but from friction with the bore. By the way, those bullets were very inaccurate, even with full power loads. I would guess they need a high pressure load to bump up the core to sit firmly in the jacket.

[Mauser 98K]

the higher the velocity the more heat is imparted to the projectile due to friction.. air friction and barrel friction impart heat as well as the propellant charge.. it has been shown that if the projectile is driven fast enough it will actually catch fire in flight. this is seen with some of the Electrothermal-chemical weaponry, where the projectile can actually hit 12,000fps. some of these do not have traditional gunpowder but a conductive liquid mixture that turns into a hot expanding plasma gas upon ignition. i have played around with these a few times with a conductive mixture of aluminum powder and salt water. a high energy capacitor bank is used to store the required energy to flash the mixture to plasma. this is and a rail gun are about the only technology i know of where the projectile can actually get hot enough to melt the lead out.

[Omega]

i just couldn't live with myself if i couldn't hit something past 100m. im an accuracy nut and if the rifle won't hold 1 MOA or less then i don't like it and it drives me nuts.

but speaking of SHTF situations that a lot have probably not considered and that would tell how bad it would get real fast. how many here remember when the EBT card system went down? https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/national-international/EBT-Card-Food-Stamps--227525591.html?amp=y

it was in 17 states and was only about a day or two but the welfare garbage who depends on the cards for everything didn't take any time to start their looting and robbing. muggings in that short span skyrocketed and a lot of stores were looted and robbed.. that was only about a 48hr period. now multiply that by a total collapse where the things stop working completely, which could easily happen if we got EMP attacked or something else happened to the power grid. the inner city would turn into a meat grinder real fast. those wastes of skin who depend on the system would immediately revert to their jungle tribal warfare mentality and start looting and mugging people on a massive scale. anyone caught in the middle would be in a bad way. which brings me to my other points..

how many here have food storage? can you effectively protect that storage? if there are a lot of looters and muggers then you will most likely have to defend your stuff from them, this is especially true if you live in city limits. the problem with this is that if you start killing the attackers then others will know that you have something to protect and will most likely hit you from a distance when you come outside one day and then just walk in and take your stuff. you cannot just scare them off either as they would know you have something worth protecting. also where are you going to put the bodies of the attackers? you could go back to the old castle days where they would be under siege from an opposing force.. bodies laying around have a bad tendency to draw flies and pollute the ground water and ground around them. not going to get to the smell. the flies can also spread disease. they would either lob them out of the castle with a catapult or trebuchet or pile them up and burn them. being most people do not have the means to fling them out of their AO, burning or burying would be the only way. too many bodies buried will poison the ground and water table. burning makes smoke and can been seen for miles and will most likely draw in more idiots. it will be a never ending cycle. sure you can burn them at night, but then you run into light from the fire and the smell itself.. that is one thing to consider.

the other things to consider is this.. how many here have generators for a emergency situation? i know a lot of people who say they will just use their generator in a SHTF situation. there is several problems with this idea. one is the smell of exhaust and gasoline. the smell would not really present itself as too big a problem as most generators are noisy. they are dam loud.. most of the standard generators that most people have run at 3,600rpm and can be heard for several miles on a cool quiet night. this itself would tell every baddie in the AO that there is someone out there with a generator so maybe they have food and other supplies too. so that there will bring in the looters and muggers there. and with several days of starving belly you best friend and family can turn onto your worst enemy too. so that there must be taken into consideration when picking those who you tell what you have. but back to the generator and electricity backup systems..

a lot of people will get it in their head that being the generator is noisy and needs fuel, ill just use solar power.. that would actually be a lot better but also has its problems.. lets say the power grid is out. no lights anywhere. you have your trusty solar or other backup systems so that you can run your lights and freezer/fridge.. how is that house going to look to a bad guy who is hungry? they will be drawn to the lights of your house like a moth... then you have idiots to contend with.

and how many here think they are going to just disappear and live off the land? sure you can hunt and fish, but how many other people have this same idea? you will be lucky to not get shot by someone else wanting that deer or fish you just bagged. and think how small the animal populations will get as soon as people start hunting them..within a month or less there will be no critters to hunt. this is why the old Native American tribes were nomadic, they would move where the food was. but then you risk running across others in your travels, as which was very common in the old hunter gather days, and those lead to looting other tribes and possibly becoming food yourself.

and how many here think they are just going to plow up their land and grow their own food? talk to some of the older folks who lived in the depression about what happens to crops unattended.. they magically pick themselves and you are left with nothing. it also will tell people that there are people living in the area that might have things they can take..

but "what caliber i have" is the least of your worries in a true SHTF collapse of society. that is why you do not live in city limits if at all possible, as those will be the first places to burn to the ground. think back to the LA Riots and multiply that x1000 for a good idea of the violence in the streets when the idiots start getting hungry. but the part where you will still have most of your load is a load of malarkey. when things collapse (not a matter of if, but when) most people will have to defend their stuff at least once. there is no way around this.. starvation has a tendency to destroy any resemblance of civilization. after 2-3 days a lot of people would kill their own grandmother for food. i have went 3-4 days without food and ill tell you now, things you would normally not consider start to look like a real good idea, including cannibalism. so man will hunt man for food.

but do not think you will get out of this because you are harmless or because you are prepared. most people will have to leave their houses and a lot of their stash behind. it does not matter how prepared you are or how much ammo and food you have, you cannot fend against hundreds or thousands of starving people wanting a piece of the pie, and there will be millions across the country.. i found out a long time ago that most of us will not survive a real collapse. there are just too many idiots who are not prepared and who rely on the system for their survival. these are the entitlement idiots, and they will think they are entitled to your stuff. there is no way around this fact, they will come for your stuff if they know you are there. if there is a house there then they will be there eventually. and they will go door to door in most places and if they feel they can get away with it then they will kick in the door and take your stuff.. i laugh at most people who think they will not have to get their hands dirty in a SHTF situation. that is only wishful thinking. you have not seen desperate till they start starving.

but b4 anyone ask me about what im planning on doing. i do not know. every trigger is different and causes a different chain of events. if the situation is fluid then you become fluid. it moves you move. we will just have to burn that bridge when it happens.

We can what-if a SHTF scenario all day long, and there is no way to prepare for every possible happenstance. But, caliber selection is an important part of most any strategy, and the 5.56 would be a wise choice for many. It is easy to carry a full load, easy to place steel on target, easy to make follow-up shots, and no matter how hungry, we'll get to that, a person is, none of them will be in a hurry to rush a place defended by a rapid fire rifle. Now back to hunger, most of these people will succumb within a week of running out of food, in two weeks, the ones that are semi prepared will be in the same boat. Those that survive into the third, and fourth week will have some knowledge, something to stock up on, and those will be worthy opponents, or worthy of making friends with. At the end of the day, a lone survivor will have less of a chance than those who have a group of like minded individuals working together to survive.

[Mauser 98K]

you are failing to take into account what happen till they succumb to hunger. it takes a lot longer than a week to die of starvation if the person has any body mass. it can take several weeks. water would be the one that kills in a few days.

but if it is a group you fail to take into account the tactic of the flanking maneuver. a few will keep you occupied and have some others to come in behind you and take you out from behind. and while you are blowing away ammo in rapid fire, everyone within several square miles will know there is someone there and you will have a small army converging on you in short order. but never underestimate the power of hunger and what people will be willing to face down to stop it, all you have to do is look at some of these 3rd world countries to see what people will do for food. that includes blitzkrieging troops with automatic rifles to get to the relief aid..

but most people will not even know the muggers are even there till they hear a few pops from the bushes and they fall over.. everyone still thinks that the bad guys will just run up to them, announce they are going to mug you, and then allow you to defend yourself. that is not what id do. id hide in the bushes till you come out of your front door and put one in your forehead. then i do not have to worry about you anymore. this is the most likely thing to happen if someone wants your stuff. bad guys are notoriously cowards. they will get you from behind and when you cannot see them and not expecting them. so you can shoot 30rnds from that AR real fast. what good is that if you never even know they are there? think like a bad guy.

[Omega]

you are failing to take into account what happen till they succumb to hunger. it takes a lot longer than a week to die of starvation if the person has any body mass. it can take several weeks. water would be the one that kills in a few days.

but if it is a group you fail to take into account the tactic of the flanking maneuver. a few will keep you occupied and have some others to come in behind you and take you out from behind. and while you are blowing away ammo in rapid fire, everyone within several square miles will know there is someone there and you will have a small army converging on you in short order. but never underestimate the power of hunger and what people will be willing to face down to stop it, all you have to do is look at some of these 3rd world countries to see what people will do for food. that includes blitzkrieging troops with automatic rifles to get to the relief aid..

but most people will not even know the muggers are even there till they hear a few pops from the bushes and they fall over.. everyone still thinks that the bad guys will just run up to them, announce they are going to mug you, and then allow you to defend yourself. that is not what id do. id hide in the bushes till you come out of your front door and put one in your forehead. then i do not have to worry about you anymore. this is the most likely thing to happen if someone wants your stuff. bad guys are notoriously cowards. they will get you from behind and when you cannot see them and not expecting them. so you can shoot 30rnds from that AR real fast. what good is that if you never even know they are there? think like a bad guy.No, I'm not failing to take any of that into account; but what you fail to take into account is that if they can do all that to a guy with an AR, what makes you think a guy with a bolt action, revolver, or even an M1 will fare any different? The point is, I've chosen my platform, I've trained with said platform and have cast my die. But I'm no fool, I'm also ready to pickup my 308 to reach out and touch someone. But, the reality is that old age will catch up to us sooner than any maurauder will, so hopefully there are younger defenders in your clan to take up the slack.

[glockfan]

i just couldn't live with myself if i couldn't hit something past 100m. im an accuracy nut and if the rifle won't hold 1 MOA or less then i don't like it and it drives me nuts.

but speaking of SHTF situations that a lot have probably not considered and that would tell how bad it would get real fast. how many here remember when the EBT card system went down? https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/national-international/EBT-Card-Food-Stamps--227525591.html?amp=y

it was in 17 states and was only about a day or two but the welfare garbage who depends on the cards for everything didn't take any time to start their looting and robbing. muggings in that short span skyrocketed and a lot of stores were looted and robbed.. that was only about a 48hr period. now multiply that by a total collapse where the things stop working completely, which could easily happen if we got EMP attacked or something else happened to the power grid. the inner city would turn into a meat grinder real fast. those wastes of skin who depend on the system would immediately revert to their jungle tribal warfare mentality and start looting and mugging people on a massive scale. anyone caught in the middle would be in a bad way. which brings me to my other points..

how many here have food storage? can you effectively protect that storage? if there are a lot of looters and muggers then you will most likely have to defend your stuff from them, this is especially true if you live in city limits. the problem with this is that if you start killing the attackers then others will know that you have something to protect and will most likely hit you from a distance when you come outside one day and then just walk in and take your stuff. you cannot just scare them off either as they would know you have something worth protecting. also where are you going to put the bodies of the attackers? you could go back to the old castle days where they would be under siege from an opposing force.. bodies laying around have a bad tendency to draw flies and pollute the ground water and ground around them. not going to get to the smell. the flies can also spread disease. they would either lob them out of the castle with a catapult or trebuchet or pile them up and burn them. being most people do not have the means to fling them out of their AO, burning or burying would be the only way. too many bodies buried will poison the ground and water table. burning makes smoke and can been seen for miles and will most likely draw in more idiots. it will be a never ending cycle. sure you can burn them at night, but then you run into light from the fire and the smell itself.. that is one thing to consider.

the other things to consider is this.. how many here have generators for a emergency situation? i know a lot of people who say they will just use their generator in a SHTF situation. there is several problems with this idea. one is the smell of exhaust and gasoline. the smell would not really present itself as too big a problem as most generators are noisy. they are dam loud.. most of the standard generators that most people have run at 3,600rpm and can be heard for several miles on a cool quiet night. this itself would tell every baddie in the AO that there is someone out there with a generator so maybe they have food and other supplies too. so that there will bring in the looters and muggers there. and with several days of starving belly you best friend and family can turn onto your worst enemy too. so that there must be taken into consideration when picking those who you tell what you have. but back to the generator and electricity backup systems..

a lot of people will get it in their head that being the generator is noisy and needs fuel, ill just use solar power.. that would actually be a lot better but also has its problems.. lets say the power grid is out. no lights anywhere. you have your trusty solar or other backup systems so that you can run your lights and freezer/fridge.. how is that house going to look to a bad guy who is hungry? they will be drawn to the lights of your house like a moth... then you have idiots to contend with.

and how many here think they are going to just disappear and live off the land? sure you can hunt and fish, but how many other people have this same idea? you will be lucky to not get shot by someone else wanting that deer or fish you just bagged. and think how small the animal populations will get as soon as people start hunting them..within a month or less there will be no critters to hunt. this is why the old Native American tribes were nomadic, they would move where the food was. but then you risk running across others in your travels, as which was very common in the old hunter gather days, and those lead to looting other tribes and possibly becoming food yourself.

and how many here think they are just going to plow up their land and grow their own food? talk to some of the older folks who lived in the depression about what happens to crops unattended.. they magically pick themselves and you are left with nothing. it also will tell people that there are people living in the area that might have things they can take..

but "what caliber i have" is the least of your worries in a true SHTF collapse of society. that is why you do not live in city limits if at all possible, as those will be the first places to burn to the ground. think back to the LA Riots and multiply that x1000 for a good idea of the violence in the streets when the idiots start getting hungry. but the part where you will still have most of your load is a load of malarkey. when things collapse (not a matter of if, but when) most people will have to defend their stuff at least once. there is no way around this.. starvation has a tendency to destroy any resemblance of civilization. after 2-3 days a lot of people would kill their own grandmother for food. i have went 3-4 days without food and ill tell you now, things you would normally not consider start to look like a real good idea, including cannibalism. so man will hunt man for food.

but do not think you will get out of this because you are harmless or because you are prepared. most people will have to leave their houses and a lot of their stash behind. it does not matter how prepared you are or how much ammo and food you have, you cannot fend against hundreds or thousands of starving people wanting a piece of the pie, and there will be millions across the country.. i found out a long time ago that most of us will not survive a real collapse. there are just too many idiots who are not prepared and who rely on the system for their survival. these are the entitlement idiots, and they will think they are entitled to your stuff. there is no way around this fact, they will come for your stuff if they know you are there. if there is a house there then they will be there eventually. and they will go door to door in most places and if they feel they can get away with it then they will kick in the door and take your stuff.. i laugh at most people who think they will not have to get their hands dirty in a SHTF situation. that is only wishful thinking. you have not seen desperate till they start starving.

but b4 anyone ask me about what im planning on doing. i do not know. every trigger is different and causes a different chain of events. if the situation is fluid then you become fluid. it moves you move. we will just have to burn that bridge when it happens.

a dozen sks or ak's...many tens of thousands of norinco bullets to feed them.....and come to get me and my family!!

seriously now.

in a SHTF scenario, what you need the most is many bows, arrows, a dozen SKS's and thousands and thousands of bullets .the ammo should be used as a ''one round one kill'''' defensive device. you don't want to spill any.

as for food,i guess that basic elements ,seeds for crops, salt,sugar,flour,cannings etcetcetc ....and of course games around would suffice for some time. you must gang with minded people,so everyone has a job. you can't welcome every persons who is on its way to find a way
to survive.impossible. however, you still can help the people who are still sane in their mind,you still can help them to set up IF gthey worth it from YOUR point of view and the conditions of the moment.

you MUST be far away from the ''dancing floor''' where zombies are pop'ing up as the shortages of everything are piling up. mountain top is a good spot to see the events scrolling your way if it has to happen.

for the people who are alone, but well armed with at least a bow and couple firearms and ammo,being mobile and nomade is your best bet to survive.the fartest of large cities you go,the higher the chance to find a spot , OR , a micro society willing to welcome you to survive.as you said,inner cities small or big is where the worse the human being has to offer will be seen.

i have a cabin far in the north,kind of a no man land area where humans are scarce. you must at least fuel your pick up 4 times to reach the place.it,s 16 hours full north from where i live. i've lways thought this place would be a good safe just in case...so i keep couple axes, 1 excalibure 480 fps cross bow, 3 hunting bows 1 being a pulley bow dedicated to precision shooting , a truck load
of hunting arrows...in the real, i've inherited the cabin from dad who was an avid hunter,fisherman ; along the last 3 decades , i've built a set up i'm leaving there because ahummmm....there's no real rule up there,you can go fishing and hunting small games all year round without fear of being checked out by ''officials''' . it's a very remote area ,and there's only 3 months in the year where hunters are ''assaulting'' the area for hunting endeavors.otherwise it's the total wild.i really think that this location is a perfect shtf safe location. in case of chaos,there's no way anyone could find enough gas to reach the place.

[Thundarstick]

M98K remind me again where your 800 yard rifle fits into you're last several post?

I seem to remember that some of the best things you can have stocked up in a collapse is booze and cigarettes!

About the depression, my Great Aunt told me you'd get shot over a chicken during those times, as chicken theaving was a killing offence, and having a milk cow was a big deal as well!

We live together, or die together, in real bad times!

[lefty o]

ima go find my hip waders. its getting deep in here.................................

[303Guy]

the higher the velocity the more heat is imparted to the projectile due to friction.. air friction and barrel friction impart heat as well as the propellant charge.. it has been shown that if the projectile is driven fast enough it will actually catch fire in flight. this is seen with some of the Electrothermal-chemical weaponry, where the projectile can actually hit 12,000fps. some of these do not have traditional gunpowder but a conductive liquid mixture that turns into a hot expanding plasma gas upon ignition. i have played around with these a few times with a conductive mixture of aluminum powder and salt water. a high energy capacitor bank is used to store the required energy to flash the mixture to plasma. this is and a rail gun are about the only technology i know of where the projectile can actually get hot enough to melt the lead out.
That is interesting, thanks.

12,000fps! Holy cow! That would get hot but no doubt those projectiles would not be of standard construction. To actually catch fire! Remember the space capsule re-entry heating from the early days. The heat shield was made of glass IIRC which melted and evaporated for cooling and of course, shielding. Then came the ceramic tiles.

Just how much heat is transferred to a normal rifle bullet base from the propellant?

Ok so here is the temperature of a bullet in flight. Muzzle velocity here is 1070fps.
https://s19.postimg.cc/ugt7jeilv/Bullet_Temperature.png (https://postimages.org/)

So it actually cools down during flight. Realize this for a pistol bullet. The temperature measured would be surface temperature so cooling would be quite rapid and the major source of that heat would be barrel friction. The core would not get anywhere near that hot.

A 5.56 NATO bullet gets to about the same temperature at the muzzle.


We concluded that the bullet's temperature was around 267 degrees Celsius (513 degrees F). The bullet gets very hot as it is forced down the rifle barrel at supersonic speeds.
Not sure this next bit is factual.

Many years ago when the 220 swift was a big thing, some thought the lead was at the melting point for some time due to friction of the bullet in air. This would explain the 'gray mist' seen when the jacket comes apart.
This next one is interesting.

It's not uncommon for expanding bullets to exhibit more expansion at long range due to core liquefaction than if they strike a medium up close at the reduced velocity equivalent to their arrival at a long range target.

So there is enough frictional heating to liquefy the core, but we're talking somewhere north of 500 yards.
This could be due to core softening due to heating rather than liquefaction.

[Mauser 98K]

M98K remind me again where your 800 yard rifle fits into you're last several post?

I seem to remember that some of the best things you can have stocked up in a collapse is booze and cigarettes!

About the depression, my Great Aunt told me you'd get shot over a chicken during those times, as chicken theaving was a killing offence, and having a milk cow was a big deal as well!

We live together, or die together, in real bad times!

you more or less hit it on the head there.. united we stand, divided we fall.. the problem is, how united is the country today? if anything there is more division than ever b4, and it seems to only be getting worse..

and booze and cigarettes. actually are good barter items. and do not forget toilet paper. that stuff will be worth its weight in gold if the stores are not open. lets not forget the collapse in Venezuela, where there is actually a black market for toilet paper.

but the 800m rifle. the more accurate a rifle is at long range the more accurate at closer ranges it will be. am i going to be shooting that far? probably not, as my AO is hilly and has wooded areas. about 400m is about the max around here, and that is down a power line cut or highway usually.. mostly it is 200m or less, and that is why i got the semi auto rifle. it fills in where the bolt gun falls short of fire rate and the bolt gun fills in where the semi auto falls short of range.. but if you cannot see where you would need a long range bolt gun in a SHTF situation then i don't figure you will ever need one..



but Omega. not trying to tell you what platform to use. not trying to tell anyone what platform to use. use what you are good with and are willing to use. i was just saying what my preference was. if you are proficient with the AR in 5.56 then have at it. i never said it was worthless for a SHTF situation. but the part where "if they can do all that to a guy with an AR what could they do to a guy with a bolt gun".. that is something we all have to think about in that situation. i was just pointing out possibilities so that one can hopefully be halfway prepared for that situation. situational awareness comes into play there.. it can come down to something as small as an odd looking bush or a pile of grass that was not there the day b4.

but everyone forgets that Germany conquered a large portion of Europe with bolt action rifles. if we had not have jumped in then they would have taken over the entire area over there. with the bolt gun, if they could see you then they could hit you. in open warfare the bolt action is superior to a semi auto rifle. it is more accurate at range. in fact the Wehrmacht preferred the bolt action over a semi auto for that exact reason in open country. of course one must take into account the different thought processes then as opposed to now.. in the 30s and 40s the troops were taught to do aimed fire. spray and pray was strictly frowned upon and would get you reprimanded real fast. you were taught accuracy over volume fire and to take the target with as little ammo expended.. fast forward to today and most of the time there are thousands of round expended per enemy kill. also the semi auto changed a persons mindset. they know that if they miss with the first shot that it is just a matter of pulling the trigger again and again till they hit the target. you cannot do this with a bolt gun so you were forced to actually aim b4 pulling the trigger. it forces you to shoot accurately the first time.. i am more scared of a guy with an old bolt gun than i am of a guy with a semi auto, especially if the guy knows what he is doing.. if the guy with the bolt gun knows his stuff then there is no shot to be heard as the first shot is the last you ever hear. i subscribe to this ideology of "hit with the first round or do not even attempt it" school of thought. if i cannot do it with the first round then i consider it wasting ammo. this is something else people must take into account. in a real SHTF situation ammo will be a precious resource. if you just hose or do rapid fire then that is ammo that cannot be replaced. do enough of the rapid fire spray and pray stupidity and you burn through your ammo. it does not matter if you can carry that 600rnds of ammo to my 200rnds if you do rapid fire and miss 2/3 the time. if you have to shoot many times to get the job done then that extra ammo is just wasted. but that is what i always see when they are using the AR platform. a lot of rapid fire and hope to hit the target. just think how devastating a squad could be if they would get accurate rifles that they could do accuracy over volume fire with. they would have a lot higher shot to kill ratio, that is for dam sure..

but use the rifle you want. i don't really care what you use if you can hit the target with accuracy and it keeps you alive...

[Mauser 98K]

but i need folks to keep their .223 rifles. that way i can pick through the mountains of spent cases and make brass for my CZ-52. :D

[Mr_Sheesh]

Look at what Col. Cooper does around his house; Couple hundred yards of white gravel covering the ground. Not exactly "covert", but, it will make someone heading towards your house stand out a little.

And in the "Old days", they used to have signs by the entry to a ranch etc., "Ranged for my 45-70" or whatever rifle they owned, basically reminding visitors to come in peace. As the places' owner knew exactly where their rifle would hit out to that range, maybe more.

In a SHTF situation I could see the people defending a given area marking an area as NO-MANS-LAND; it has been done before. Hoping that isn't any of our only plans for if things go bad, that helping others live will be in there somewhere, too.

[Lloyd Smale]

but everyone forgets that Germany conquered a large portion of Europe with bolt action rifles. if we had not have jumped in then they would have taken over the entire area over there. They conquered large portions of Europe that also used bolt guns and most of those were inferior to the 98. but we did show up and showed up with semi auto guns and the germans found they were hamstrung by there bolt guns and scrambled to bring out semi autos of there own. Fact is theres not a military today that doesn't use a semi auto. None use bolts and for good reason. Same reason jets made prop fighters obsolete. Id have to wager that other then snipers theres not a single man in the service today that would rather have a bolt gun then a semi auto.

[Mauser 98K]

uh.. the The Danish elite naval unit "Sirius Patrol" uses the M1917 Enfield in 30-06..

the picture is in India.
221295

and to say the bolt action is slow as molasses and is inferior to the semi auto is a farce. ever heard of the "mad minute"? in the correct hands a bolt gun can be as fast as a semi automatic rifle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_a7pXWi6xo

but the idea is to hit the dang target, not just rapid fire and expect a cumulative hit. they used to teach this even with the semi auto rifles in the old days. but the problem with Germany and the largest reason they lost was they were fighting on 3 fronts. they were fighting the Russians, the US and the British all at the same time. they had spread their resources way too thin. that is what caused their loss.. Hitler got greedy and tried to bite off too much at once. if he had waited to invade Russia and England till after he had built up his troops and armaments again he would have been hell to stop, especially if they had succeeded in deploying a few of the new wonder toys he never got a chance to use.

but when a sniper is in the area, why is it they usually call a sniper team instead of sending in the 5 man fire team to do the counter sniper operations? after all the sniper only has a crappy old bolt action rifle.

a semi auto is only good to a certain range, short range. fast fire at ranges further than 100m will usually be all over the map due to recoil and shooter error.. semi auto don't mean **** if you cannot hit the target with it. at ranges further than 50m-100m you are back to slower fire rates that can be done with a bolt gun. most modern semi auto and automatic military arms are meant for close range MOUT and CQB operations. they are not designed for open country warfare. that is why they are all chambered in 9mm, 5.56, 40cal, and the other smaller cartridges that are of no use past short range. if you was to put these new guys up against the older WWI and WWII troops with the 03-A3 and the Mausers, the guys who know how to do accuracy with them in open terrain, the new guys would fail in epic manner. that is why CAS, drones, and other indirect fire is used so much in the sand box in the east. the commander in the opening article states this clearly. with the old bolt guns that everyone seems to hate, 200m and 300m would be no big deal. with them 600m is a real possibility. at longer ranges semi auto fire is meaningless except for area dispersion to keep an enemy behind cover.. the only place semi auto shines is at close range, usually within 100m.

[Love Life]

The semi-auto is quite effective beyond 100 meters. Especially when a whole Branch is trained to engage 300 meter rapid fire.

[one-eyed fat man]

i will note that the M1903 Springfield is STILL a legal service rifle to fire the National Match Course. When is the last time one finished in the President's Hundred?

[Rick Hodges]

This nonsense about not being able to hit anything is pure rubbish. I have killed running coyotes at over 300 yds. with a 5.56 AR.

I trained with the M-16 A2 after the introduction and correction in training, maintenance, and ammunition issues. (1971) Hits to 350 meters on 1/2man sized silhouette targets are routine. We had to train and qualify in automatic rifle mode as well. Full auto, 3 shot burst (no automatic burst mode, trigger discipline) making hits to 450 meters on the same targets...single and in groups, with regularity. I would not want to be downrange with a rifleman shooting at me.

The bolt action rifle as a standard infantry arm was rendered obsolete by the Garand in WWII. The AR platform rendered the large bore, heavy ammunition load infantry rifle obsolete. It has set the standard for over 50 yrs., longer than any other in the country's history.

The only place it lacks is as a club, and bayonet mount.....I would much rather have a Garand for that....but then as my instructors told me...."if you have ammo shoot the ......-......'s!" Seeing how I can carry 3 or 4 times the ammo with the AR platform, I can live with that.

[ofitg]

Despite all that, the deadliest thing in an infantry squad is the push to talk switch on the radio. You should not shoot anyone you can get someone else to shoot for you.



Excellent point, sir. The development of radio communication after WW1 transformed the battlefield. As close air/armor/artillery support evolved, the rifleman's role (and his rifle) became more specialized.

[Mauser 98K]

Was this 5.56 AR a stock AR with no modifications and military issue ammo when you killed those coyotes at 300m? A coyote is a smaller creature than a man, man is dam hard to kill sometimes. But the only thing the AR has over the heavy large bore weapons is A:weight is lower, and B:you can carry more ammo.. That is it, and is the main reason it was adopted. Go read the history behind the platform and it will say this.

But long range hits in controlled conditions is not an accurate assessment of what happens in a battlefield situations. The variables change real fast. The opening article also says this, that everyone expects the target to remain stationary for long enough for them to aim and fire, this is hardly ever the case. You can do hits on stationary targets at 400m, add in the target that moves and other real world varbles and first round hits are dropped to under 200m.

[Love Life]

That applies to any rifle platform concerning moving targets in a battlefield situation.

[Mauser 98K]

That applies to any rifle platform concerning moving targets in a battlefield situation.

exactly..

[Multigunner]

Early testing of jacketed bullets used with the .303 with Mk1 Cordite resulted in many jacket separations and blown through cores.
In further testing they drilled a tiny hole nearthe base of the bullet and observed a spiral pattern of atomized lead on screens and with high speed photography the could see a spiral cloud of lead surrounding the bullet in flight.
Bullet to bore friction was enough to melt the pure lead core where it contacted the jacket.

When .220 Swift bullets disintegrated in flight it was because they were still using .22 bullets manufactured for much lower velocity cartridges.
Heating of the core wasn't the only factor the centrifugal force of rotation of the bullet was enough to rip apart a softened core that by heating had lost most of its tensile strength (if that's the right term).

As for bullets heated by friction in penetration of materials When I shot a bowling ball with an M2 AP round the ball split and I found the core with tip melted just inside the far side of the ball. I don't remember seeing any remains of the jacket.

When a bullet strikes a structural steel plate thick enough to prevent the bullet core from passing through intact but not thick enough to stop it, the core , whether steel or lead, flattens then punches a hole much larger than bullet diameter in the plate. The plug pushed through the plate is generally white hot. I've seen these arc through the air behind the plate looking like a bright light bulb. The hole left by the plug was about 5/8" diameter for a .303 bullet and smooth sided and shiny as if cut by a laser beam.
Effects on armor plate are no doubt very different.

[Mauser 98K]

strange that i am using pretty much pure lead for the core of my .308 varmint rounds and have never seen any melting of the core.

[Mr_Sheesh]

If the rotational speed of the jacket is so fast that the jacket is ripped apart by centripetal force, the lead (having less tensile strength) will likely follow suit. Something else to consider. If lead is melting a lot, how exactly does Paper Patching EVER work, I'd think the paper would smear instead of engraving (if the lead's melting) - and how do lead boolits with lube in the groves, EVER manage to make it to the target, without the lube vaporizing en route? Something's wrong in that model or reality, seems to me, it doesn't match the real world data we see accurately.

[Lloyd Smale]

that a bolt guns is magicaly more accurate is hog wash. Military 98s, springfields, enfields ect were not tack drivers. Especially with the ball ammo they shot. An m16 is every bit as accurate out to any distance. Many military snipers today use semi auto ar10s and the might 50bmg barrett is a semi auto last I checked. It has made the longest sniper shots ever. Look at what the m14 has done at camp perry! bottom line is most military bolt guns were two to three moa guns out of the box.

Shoot one just as fast?? In a pigs eye. You sit on the firing line with your 8x57 or 3006 bolt and put some clay pigeons out at 200 yards and see. Sure you might be able to make it go bang fast but that is if you don't care where the bullets are going. Making hits with an ar15 is much easier. For one you can see your misses and stay on target MUCH easier because of the fact theres MUCH less recoil. You don't have to take your hand off the trigger to work a bolt and take the time to insure your trigger finger is precisely where you want it. Your eye doesn't leave the optic and have to be repositioned. Now there are some that can run a bolt FAIRLY fast. But there very rare and didn't learn to do it in 8 weeks of boot camp.

This whole thing is kind of silly. If there was some superiority to a bolt wed still be using mausers and springfields. They wouldn't be antique collectors items like a model T ford. Even third world countrys that have no money seem to find a way to put Aks and ARs in the hands of there soldiers. I too was trained and used a M16 in the military. Ive heard them bragged on and bashed (much more bragging then bashing) . I HAVE NEVER HEARD A SINGLE MAN want to swap his for a 98 mauser. Seem some that would rather have a m14 or an ak but never (other then a few snipers and even that is changing as many are switching to the ar10 platform) saw one of them looking for a bolt gun.

Its about right up there with a abrams tank commander wishing he had a Sherman. theres some cool factor to old military guns. Never did much for me other then a few years that I was into m1 carbines in my teen years. Bolt guns are hunting guns and do a fine job of shooting something that doesn't shoot back. the military moved on in the 40s. 15 years before I was even a sperm cell.

[AggieEE]

I'll chip in my 0.02 cents on the bullet temp question. When I was in college I ran across a formula for something called stagnation temp and pressure. When you have a bullet, airplane etc. in flight the air at the nose stacks up, becomes stagnant, with the higher the speed the higher the temp and pressure. Just for fun I plugged in a speed of 3000 fps turned the crank and out popped 600 degrees F. I don't remember the pressure but it was several thousand psi. I was wondering why the tip didn't melt but now know heat transfer takes time. I think this might be where that 600 degree number might be coming from. My dad was telling me one of his uncles was telling about being shot in WWI and said it was like being burned by a cigarette. Don't know I've never been shot.

[Rick Hodges]

For the record the coyotes at 300 were with a Ruger A5.56 with a 3x optic. Really not much different than current issue M-4. 16" bbl. instead of 14.7"....but pretty close. Stock trigger and all. Ammo was reloaded LC cases and 55 gr. Sierra's at just under 2900fps.

I love bolt action rifles....for hunting. The Garand made all of them obsolete as a fighting rifle. Col. Cooper talked of a practical rifleman controlling a radius 300 meters....his solution was a 30 cal. bolt action rifle with forward optics. The scout rifle. I suggest he was wrong. 7.62x51 is more power than is necessary for unarmored men and not enough if they are armored. The rate of accurate aimed fire is much too slow. The AR does a better job.

Shoot an AR platform for a while...with optics if your eyes require it, or a red dot or as issue sights if you are still young enough to use them well. Sight it in...learn where it hits.....then engage targets at multiple ranges...rapidly. Shoot the same course of fire with your bolt, or Garand, or M1A. If you don't make accurate hits twice as fast as the big bore semis' or 5 time faster than with your bolt gun you aren't trying. You will walk away with a smile on your face. The beauty of the AR lies in the ease of making hits rapidly.
Try it and see, the hits come easier and faster, the weapon doesn't beat you up and I don't know of anyone who wants to act as a bullet stop for 5.56 ammo at any range.

There is a reason why the AR platform dominates Service Rifle Competition. There is a good reason it has been the US service rifle for longer than any other in this nations existence.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

the original post talks about SHTF and civilian use by comparing it to Military use.

this seems apples to oranges for comparison.

at 200 meters you can't even see someones face without magnification , how would you be positively identifying them to shoot them ?
how would you justify the use of force if they were not already shooting at you ?

if you take into consideration that the effective range far exceeds most civilians ability to shoot or that they are comparing an ammo that is not prohibited for civilian use to military ball ammo.

last summer I was at a clinic the girl next to me was 17 we were all shooting AQTs 100 yards 2 minutes standing , 200 yards transition to seated 55 seconds with reload , 300 yards transition to prone 65 seconds with reload, and 400 yard prone slow fire 4 minutes .

isn't the hole point of the M16 so that you can get a 17 year old girl qualifying on an AQT with a few days training ?
no one said they couldn't move on to something bigger but certainly your support troops making up more than 50% of your enlisted personnel would be well severed with a 200 meter light easy to use rifle.

the police department was discussing building a range , they were saying they needed 75 yards , when asked why not 100 , 200 or more , they qualify with the M4 at 75 yards they just are not seeing a need for longer engagements. that is what SWAT or ERT teams are for they can practice further but John or Jane police officer handling patrol duties really don't need 100 meter + qualification.

yes a lot of it is budgets

but in some cases not everyone is going to be a 600-1000 meter rifleman

[Multigunner]

If the rotational speed of the jacket is so fast that the jacket is ripped apart by centripetal force, the lead (having less tensile strength) will likely follow suit. Something else to consider. If lead is melting a lot, how exactly does Paper Patching EVER work, I'd think the paper would smear instead of engraving (if the lead's melting) - and how do lead boolits with lube in the groves, EVER manage to make it to the target, without the lube vaporizing en route? Something's wrong in that model or reality, seems to me, it doesn't match the real world data we see accurately.

How many paper patch loads exceed 2500 FPS, much less 3,000+?
How many paper patched .303 boolits were driven by a full charge of Cordite Mk1?
How many paper patched Boolits have you put through a structural steel I beam Web?

The higher the muzzle velocity the higher the rotational speed of the bullets even when the rifling twist rate is the same. A bullet exiting the muzzle at the higher level .220 Swift's 4,000 FPS will be rotating at far higher RPMs than the same bullet fired from a .22 Hornet.

The major factor in high bore friction heating of Cordite Mk1 loaded .303 bullets was the remarkable lack of fouling in the bore. To provide a barrier between bullet and bore (after the first shot burned away any residual oil) Mineral jelly was added to the Cordite formula.

A great deal of work was done on hardening of bullet cores and redesigning of jackets and their alloys and claddings to prevent further problems with bullet over heating and core separations.
Modern powders contain additives to cool the gases of combustion and in some cases Teflon or similar additives have been introduced to the formula of some powders to reduce bore friction.

The reality is that friction produces heat and compression produces heat. If the bullet is designed to stand up to the heat there will be no ill effects, if not there will be ill effects.

I've picked up a soft point bullet from a mild 2500 FPS 7.92 Mauser load after it passed through a stump and it was as hot as a match head. Due to compression on impact along with friction of passing through solid wood. Of the dozen or so bullets of the same type dug from a clay bank half had lost their core or in some cases the core simply fell out of the jacket when I picked it up.

[Shingle]

I'm not going to start a caliber debate but we have two of the best choices available to us rite now. The 6.8spc spec.2 and the 6.5grendal sec.2.IMHO either one would be great choice of range and weight.

[Mauser 98K]

Lloyd, you do know that Rem700 that the military uses and that people are so proud of is a copy of a Mauser, don't yall? the 03-A3 was a direct rip off of the Mauser, which is why Mauser sued after the war and collected.. almost every bolt gun made to date uses Mauser designs. if the Mauser was so antiquated and obsolete then why does everyone seem to want to copy the design in one way or the other? and if you still think it is obsolete and useless then stand 500m out and let me shoot at you with it and 200gr FMJBT.. and b4 you get your panties in a wad over the accuracy, get a new barrel in one that is not shot out and does not have cleaning rod wear at the muzzle as 90% of the surplus mausers usually have.

and the Barret M82 semi automatic .50cal was originally intended as an EOD rifle, it was never meant for sniping operations. it is by no means a MOA or sub MOA rifle platform. and i think you will find that it is the mcmillan tac 50, a bolt action rifle, that holds the worlds longest recorded kill shot at 3,871 yards using the Hornady A-MAX.

and as for "An m16 is every bit as accurate out to any distance". tell you what we will do.. we will do an easy test that you should be able to do at home. get your AR or M16 and go outside right now and fire a 20 shot group at 100m. if you can cover the group with your thumb then we will talk, because i can do that with my obsolete and antiquated Mauser. hell back it up to 50m and try it. ill wait. and if you ever get a chance, take that 5.56 to 1,000m and tell me how well it does.

and b4 you call BS on me, here is a picture of my group..
221365

and a bunch of moron drunks in the woods with their 30-06, who groups get worse and worse the more beers they get in them using cheap ammo is not an accurate assessment of the capability of civilians. im by no means a great shot, there are people i know who make me look like and idiot child as with accuracy.. just because you or your drunk buddies can't hit the side of a barn from inside the barn proves nothing.

but show me this super accurate 5.56 hits on clay pigeon at 200m rapid fire exercise that you speak of. video or pictures or it never happened.

the "Bolt guns are hunting guns and do a fine job of shooting something that doesn't shoot back." tell that to Carlos Hathcock.. he more or less had a modified 30-06 bolt action and went up against guys with AK47, SKS, and full auto ****, and got over 100 confirmed kills. he would not say that bolt action was garbage.

but the reason that a lot of snipers in the middle east are using the M110 7.62x51mm is that everything is urbanized and multiple targets arise at the same time. hell even "The Devil of Ramadi", Chris Kyle used the bolt action, against guys with RPGs, RPK, AK47 and 74s, and did quiet well. became one of the deadliest guys on the planet. because of tactics. it all comes down to tactics and training. you never see the snipers bouncing around in the open trying to spend as many rounds as possible as you see with the AR guys, it is one shot, one kill. there are many ways of concealing oneself during sniper operations. that might be from inside a room shooting through a keyhole, or shooting through a gap created by buildings.. or between trees from deep inside the woods. but if the bolt gun was so dam worthless in combat, how is it that a single guy with a bolt gun can rack up so many kills on guys with the wonderful semi automatics?

but this is how it usually goes with the spray and pray morons when they go up against a sniper.. i laugh at this video..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soWjZgEpReI

here is another..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN8EXUgNJpk

how many rounds did the moron fire and still got taken out by one round? rapid fire accounted for nothing. but it takes a totally different thought process to use the bolt action effectively.. you can not go rushing people. but it is the old fight that has raged on for over a century between the regular grunt who waste thousands of rounds per kill and the sniper.. everyone poos on the sniper and the bolt action rifle he carries, but who do they call on for effective direct long range fire when pinned down by another sniper? why even have snipers if the bolt action is so dam ineffective against guys with AR and AK47s? because they are effective..

but as for "the bolt gun is not useful in combat anymore". i think that has been proven to be 100% Grade-A grass fed and pasture raised BS..

and no. you will not learn in 8 weeks. i myself have been shooting since i was 6yr old. started with a Daisy lever action in the hallway of house and worked to 22cal at 8 and then worked up the older i got. but ill tell you right now, you need to learn about bolt action rifles and how snipers operate b4 poo pooing on them.

recommended reading is FM 23-10.

[dverna]

M98K

Do not confuse the attributes of a sniper rifle with the needs of a battle rifle. I have a few of each and will keep it that way. I see the need for both.

For your situation and abilities,you may be correct. That does not mean it is the correct solution for everyone.

[Texas by God]

The Remington 700 (721) is based on the 98 Mauser like the Glock is based on the 1911.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Mauser 98K]

same here dverna. i also see the need for both the standard battle rifle and the bolt gun. and you are also correct about what is correct for one person is not for the next person..

but on the 700 Vs mauser design.. the mauser has a locking lug design, the 700 has a similar design. the metals may be different between the two and the feed system may be different, but the similarities are there. The 700 descended from the Model 721 - 722 designed by a Remington engineer named Mike Walker in the early 1950's. They were designed from the ground up using proven Mauser 98, Winchester Model 70, Remington Model 30 & other similar proven features but designed to be made on automatic lathes out of round bar stock with very little to no hand fitting required. go read the history on the 700 if you think im lying.

[Rick R]

There are a lot of matches won every year with Stoner pattern rifles. I have owned several that were sub MOA at 100 when scoped. My eyes don’t cooperate as well with irons as they used to. Once upon a time I got to play out to 600 yards with my heavy barrel AR shooting 69gr SMK ammo and once dialed in the 12” gong was hurting by the time I was done.

I believe the biggest problem with the M-4 is the 14.5” barrel. The 5.56mm round needs velocity to create wounds. Shortening the barrel to 10”, 12” or 14.5” robs the cartridge of wounding ability. I attended an Urban Carbine class a few years ago and during breaks it was interesting to listen to other students discuss what I call “Boutique” loads that were designed in their opine to make their SBR of choice wound as well as a 20” rifle with 62gr fmj (ss109). They were touting high pressure loads with exotic bullets loaded to the point the brass was junked after one firing. I was sold! Sold on going back to a 20” AR. So I built one with a free floated 20” FN barrel, ALG ACT trigger, Leupold 1.5-4x scope with a BDC regulated to 77gr OTM ammo, backup irons and Magpul fixed stock that doesn’t pluck my mustache hairs like a collapsible stock does. ;) And ‘lo n behold! Every round it shoots is as lethal as a 20” AR. The dudes on the various AR -centric forums call a 20” AR a “musket”. Guess I’m an old fashioned kinda guy.

If the military is going to stick with short SBR type rifles they should look to move to something that shoots a 6-7mm bullet. I believe that the 6.8SPC would benefit from a total magazine redesign, probably making it wider to stack the fatter rounds properly. Then redesign the M-16/M-4 lower to accept the new magazine with normal size fire control group, upper, buffer tube and start phasing them in as an M-5 or something. 80% as effective as a .308 and light as a mouse gun.

[Love Life]

Holes kill stuff. Poke holes in a person and they tend to knock off what they were doing.

[Mauser 98K]

Holes kill stuff. Poke holes in a person and they tend to knock off what they were doing.

i know i would. lol. them holes hurt, and you tend to leak a little afterwards.

[Texas by God]

I know Mauser and Remington history just fine. The 700 has dual front lugs and a staggered feed magazine and that's the only features it shares with the Mauser variants you mentioned.
Sorry for the thread drift, I'll be sit.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Mauser 98K]

Sorry for the thread drift

not a problem. people ought to speak their mind. and this is the "Military Rifles" section after all.

[jmort]

I will trust the words of those who have been there and done that.
I know that one member here has been there and done that and his posts in this thread make nothing but sense to me. I have one AR dedicated to XM855LC1 AC1 ammunition which I keep handy. My other two are used with soft-point ammunition designed for deer and hog hunting. If the military could use that ammunition, a hit most anywhere would be problematic for the recipient . Regardless, a solid hit with the XM855LC1 AC1 ammunition is a strong deterrent.

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd, you do know that Rem700 that the military uses and that people are so proud of is a copy of a Mauser, don't yall? the 03-A3 was a direct rip off of the Mauser, which is why Mauser sued after the war and collected.. almost every bolt gun made to date uses Mauser designs. if the Mauser was so antiquated and obsolete then why does everyone seem to want to copy the design in one way or the other? and if you still think it is obsolete and useless then stand 500m out and let me shoot at you with it and 200gr FMJBT.. and b4 you get your panties in a wad over the accuracy, get a new barrel in one that is not shot out and does not have cleaning rod wear at the muzzle as 90% of the surplus mausers usually have.

and the Barret M82 semi automatic .50cal was originally intended as an EOD rifle, it was never meant for sniping operations. it is by no means a MOA or sub MOA rifle platform. and i think you will find that it is the mcmillan tac 50, a bolt action rifle, that holds the worlds longest recorded kill shot at 3,871 yards using the Hornady A-MAX.

and as for "An m16 is every bit as accurate out to any distance". tell you what we will do.. we will do an easy test that you should be able to do at home. get your AR or M16 and go outside right now and fire a 20 shot group at 100m. if you can cover the group with your thumb then we will talk, because i can do that with my obsolete and antiquated Mauser. hell back it up to 50m and try it. ill wait. and if you ever get a chance, take that 5.56 to 1,000m and tell me how well it does.

and b4 you call BS on me, here is a picture of my group..
221365

and a bunch of moron drunks in the woods with their 30-06, who groups get worse and worse the more beers they get in them using cheap ammo is not an accurate assessment of the capability of civilians. im by no means a great shot, there are people i know who make me look like and idiot child as with accuracy.. just because you or your drunk buddies can't hit the side of a barn from inside the barn proves nothing.

but show me this super accurate 5.56 hits on clay pigeon at 200m rapid fire exercise that you speak of. video or pictures or it never happened.

the "Bolt guns are hunting guns and do a fine job of shooting something that doesn't shoot back." tell that to Carlos Hathcock.. he more or less had a modified 30-06 bolt action and went up against guys with AK47, SKS, and full auto ****, and got over 100 confirmed kills. he would not say that bolt action was garbage.

but the reason that a lot of snipers in the middle east are using the M110 7.62x51mm is that everything is urbanized and multiple targets arise at the same time. hell even "The Devil of Ramadi", Chris Kyle used the bolt action, against guys with RPGs, RPK, AK47 and 74s, and did quiet well. became one of the deadliest guys on the planet. because of tactics. it all comes down to tactics and training. you never see the snipers bouncing around in the open trying to spend as many rounds as possible as you see with the AR guys, it is one shot, one kill. there are many ways of concealing oneself during sniper operations. that might be from inside a room shooting through a keyhole, or shooting through a gap created by buildings.. or between trees from deep inside the woods. but if the bolt gun was so dam worthless in combat, how is it that a single guy with a bolt gun can rack up so many kills on guys with the wonderful semi automatics?

but this is how it usually goes with the spray and pray morons when they go up against a sniper.. i laugh at this video..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soWjZgEpReI

here is another..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN8EXUgNJpk

how many rounds did the moron fire and still got taken out by one round? rapid fire accounted for nothing. but it takes a totally different thought process to use the bolt action effectively.. you can not go rushing people. but it is the old fight that has raged on for over a century between the regular grunt who waste thousands of rounds per kill and the sniper.. everyone poos on the sniper and the bolt action rifle he carries, but who do they call on for effective direct long range fire when pinned down by another sniper? why even have snipers if the bolt action is so dam ineffective against guys with AR and AK47s? because they are effective..

but as for "the bolt gun is not useful in combat anymore". i think that has been proven to be 100% Grade-A grass fed and pasture raised BS..

and no. you will not learn in 8 weeks. i myself have been shooting since i was 6yr old. started with a Daisy lever action in the hallway of house and worked to 22cal at 8 and then worked up the older i got. but ill tell you right now, you need to learn about bolt action rifles and how snipers operate b4 poo pooing on them.

recommended reading is FM 23-10.

other then both being bolt actions the 700 shares very little with the mauser. now the springfield is much closer.
Saying the 700 is a copy of a mauser is like saying a glock is a copy of a luger. Or a new corvette is a rip off on the model t ford.

Accuracy. Ive got 8 ar15s right now. All by the way standard weight barrels. Nothing heavy barreled. Two of those shoot sub moa and the others (other then my AR pistols) are moa or darned close to it and I'm sure if I put in enough time could find something moa for them. I own 12 bolt action rifles right now. 2 of them are moa guns. One is a 240 wby. one is a rem classic in 6mm. Ive got only one that shoots sub moa and that is a 700 varmint 22250. Out of all of them my colt lower (inexpensive) model one 1-7 stainless barreled upper is the most accurate. It will shoot 1/2 moa and my 700 will do about 3/4s of an inch. I'm talking an average of 3 5shot groups. Ive owned probably close to 50 bolt action rifles in my lifetime. I can count on one hand how many shot sub moa.

Replace a worn out barrel? Take your bolt gun to a gunsmith because you are going to need to have it head spaced. An AR barrel is about a 15 minute swap. So easy that you could even swap calibers in 15 minutes.



Want a real test that will show in a shtf situation which is more accurate. Fire 30 rounds as fast as you can out of your out of the crate 98. While your doing that have someone sitting next to you that is going to get real bored shoot an accurate ar15 at the same rate of fire. After that shoot a 5 shot group and see not only which group has opened up the most but how far that group has wondered from zero.

Ive shot a barrette 50 bmg semi auto gun. My kind of wealthy neighbor has one. If you don't think its moa ive got a news flash for you. We had it out on a bench one day and two of us each shot 3 rounds at 250 yards and even with two different shooters you could cover the group with a quarter and if you doubt the accuracy of a semi auto look at groups shot with OPEN sighted m14s in competition. I once went to one with a buddy who shoots and those guys and guns were shooting 200 yard groups with open sights that I would be jumping up and down about with a heavy barreled bolt gun and a 16x scope.

I wont argue that a bolt gun will not outshoot a semi auto in a 1000 yard competition but then those are specialized high dollar guns. Compare out of the box under a 1000 dollar American bolt action guns to out of the box ar15s and your odds of finding a sub moa ar15 are no less likely then finding a sub moa bolt gun. Looking at what ive owned through the years in guns I call turd guns. Guns that wont shoot under 2 moa. Ive had many more bolt guns (thanks mostly to rugers) that wouldn't shoot under 2moa. Ive yet to own an ar15, again other then pistol length that wouldn't shoot 1.5 moa. Sure you can take a bolt gun and crown it, float the barrel bed the stock ect but were talking out of the box guns. Stand out there at 500 yards and let me shoot at you with any of my ar15s and see the results. don't stand there to long though because ill dump a whole 30 round mag into your chest and I don't need match grade bullets to do it. 1000 yard kills are in the realm of very highly trained snipers not an infantry soldier. they are not even close to trained enough to do it and sure don't need a gun capable. Just doping wind at a 1000 yards takes months of training.

Do you really believe that carlos Handcock is a typical soldier? Do you really believe that someone that talented coudnt have done the same with a accurized m14? He used a bolt gun because that's what was issued to him. Add to that that theres probably only one percent of the military that are snipers and can really get everything out of there rifle and just like in sports in the sniper world there are super stars that stand above the rest and he was one of them. because jimmy Johnson could beat me in a corvette around a nascar track with a pickup doesn't make the pickup as good of a track weapon as the corvette. Even then your comparing a 98 mauser to a accurized model 700 sniper rifle and that's just about back to the vette/truck comparison. Out of the crate 98s issued to german soldiers were not moa guns. They were a darned fine battle weapon in there day. probably the best bolt rifle issued to troops but they were made obsolete like all main line battle bolt guns were the day americans stepped into the battle field with a garand.

This is all nonsense. You can preach and make justifications all you want but id bet if you were an honest man and served in the military in a position that you were actually shot at and had to shoot back today you wouldn't choose a 98 mauser or any bolt gun. At least not if you wanted to see your family again. Remember saying this that your not a sniper. You can walter middy all you want dreaming of being carlos Handcock but shooters like him come around about once in a generation. Probably 75 percent of the recruits showing up today only exposure to shooting a gun came in a video game. Ill make you a wager right here. Ill put a full sized silhouette target out at 500 yards and ill let you choose which of my ars you want me to use and you can bring your ringer and we will shoot standing on our feet with no rest and ill bet you a 100 bucks to a 1000 I can put 15 hits on that target faster then you can. Ill probably be done while your stuggling with your first reload. Then we can put 10 targets out at 50 yards and ill take the same bet that I can put two bullets on each target before you put one on each. Probably 3. Then you will say that your 857 puts as much power on a target as my 556 does with two shots. then I will say ill borrow my buddys m1a and take the same bet. Heres the bottom line. You find me ONE active duty infantry man that would swap his m16 for a 98 mauser and I will bow to your superior knowledge. Even find me ONE sniper that would swap his 700 for a 98 and youll have me bowing. My guess is that you either haven't put time in with a ar15 or love your old nostalgic gun. Nothing wrong with that. Id love to have my old 70 ls6 chevelle back too but I sure know it doesn't hold a candle to a new zl1 Camaro.

[Rick R]

Lloyd Smale wrote;
“Do you really believe that carlos Handcock is a typical soldier? Do you really believe that someone that talented coudnt have done the same with a accurized m14? He used a bolt gun because that's what was issued to him. ”

Actually Carlos Hathcock used the M-14 when it served him AND had a mount fabricated so he could attach a scope to an M-2 .50 Cal. for when he needed real long range thump. He held the World Record longest kill with a shot he made at 2,500 yards using a Browning M-2. Hathcock didn’t just use a bolt gun.

[Mr_Sheesh]

I like the 223, just not so much for anti-personnel use. (Managed to avoid having to do much about it, fortunately.) At 6'5" tall, I will take a 7.62x51 over 5.56x45 - If someone's shooting at me, sorry, but I want to ruin their week badly, because there's NO dang good reason for that behavior.

A 257 or 30-06 or 243 would do, I just am picky and want to STOP them from ruining what's LEFT of my factory warranty, if any. Little enough left!

I'd rather be using 7mm Rem Mag and have a quite sore shoulder, than be bleeding, even. I know, I'm unreasonable.

Also I'm allergic to paper patching, led boolits, j-word jackets, sabots, those make me break out in bad bleedy wounds and I just do not like those...Same thing for car bumpers, be they chrome or plastic.

[one-eyed fat man]

and if you ever get a chance, take that 5.56 to 1,000m and tell me how well it does...

I have shooting variations of the M16 since 1968 and watched them evolve to fit a myriad of roles from combat rifle to target gun. About 15 years ago I was in the 1000 yard butts at Fort Knox's Scott Mountain range pulling targets for another relay during an ordinary monthly club match. Watching an AR post a 97-3x with iron sights on hot hazy July afternoon impressed me. While I like shooting service rifles that are steel and walnut, if you are a serious competitor in High Power you either shoot an AR or lose to one.

[Mauser 98K]

Lol Lloyd.. I never said my Mauser was a full military configured in 8x57. And I changed my own barrel in about 20minutes, did the reaming and head spacing myself. But if that 5.56 is so superior at long range, why don't the snipers use it at long range instead of the 7.62? At over 600m the 5.56 energy and velocity has usually dropped below that of a 22short. It does not matter how well you can hit at long ranges, it only matters if it will do any real damage to the target. But as I keep saying, hell the commander basically said the same thing, controlled range conditions means diddly squat.

[Mauser 98K]

but if we are going to go to long range applications. don't just take my word for it. talk to the guys over at "snipercentral.com" about the 5.56 in a sniper configuration. talk to the guys over at "thehighroad.org" or "snipershide.com". a lot of these guys were snipers, some still are. if anyone would know about the 5.56 in long range killing applications it would be these guys. ask them why they prefer the .308 and bigger bolt guns for longer ranges past 200m.

but apparently you didn't see my 20rnd group i could cover with a quarter in the post above that i did with my mauser that you say the group would open up after shooting several rounds..

but Lloyd. for the 50m test. we will be going for accuracy, not speed. speed with no accuracy is meaningless. there are no cumulative hits outside of video games. but go outside right now, while it is dark, and do a dime sized 15rnd group in the standing supported position.. my support was a fence post.
221451
this is mine i just did about 5 minutes ago, in the dark, with 165gr lead round nose, with mismatched reformed 7mm-08 brass, and a 400$ hand built Mauser rifle that should be wondering all over the map according to you. this was after i fired 10 fouling shots to warmup the barrel. think how good a group i could get if i sat down and weighed the charges (im using the lee cc dippers leveled off with a card), if i cc the cases, and weighed the bullets..

but if you really want it to be accurate side by side accuracy comparison. it needs to be 95% humidity at 78*F. it needs to be drizzling rain with a small 3-5mph full value wind from 3 O'clock. the light needs to be from the left at about 9 O'clock. altitude needs to be around 500feet above sea level and the barometric pressure needs to be 29.93. the shooting angle needs to be about 2*.

but if we were gonna go for 500m the target would be the size of a grapefruit.

but in some of my other post i said that the semi auto has advantages over the bolt action, even said that i got one for those situations when things get closer. never called the semi auto inadequate like you called the bolt action Mauser that has been proven to be anything but. the Parker Hale was a M98 action and was used for sniper operation by England. the M67 Norwegian, where my rifle barrel comes from, was also a M98 action.. a lot of old custom firearms companies got their start using the Mauser actions. H&H was one of the companies that built a lot of large bore elephant and dangerous game rifles out of the Mauser action.. if the Mauser was so dam bad in its designs and so obsolete then a lot of world class target rifles would not have been built on them. and some armies still use the modified Mauser action for their sniper rifles. not so antiquated and useless in my book.

but all i did was more or less agree with a military commander and the studies into the 5.56 in the terrain of Afghanistan. i even said that id have no problem with an AR-10 if i was handed one.. where people got that i was saying that the semi auto was less superior is beyond me. hell the Dragunov is a semi automatic rifle capable past 800m. the M21 is a semi auto 7.62NATO rifle also capable to 800m. i never said the semi auto was worthless or could not put rounds on target faster than a bolt action. the problem is that even though the semi auto is capable of fast rates if fire, the further the range the slower the fire rate must be in order to do aimed fire and put rounds on target effectively. sure the AR has a capability to fire over 600rnds a minute, how many rounds will hit the target at 300m, 400m, 500m, at those fire rates? all you can do with rapid fire at long range is area fire and suppression fire. and if the guy with the bolt gun can get that one perfect round on target then it does not matter how fast you can pull that trigger because you will not be able to return fire. then fire rate becomes null and void. this was what i was getting at. never said the semi auto was useless. i got several. i just prefer, when range gets long, to use a round that is proven to do first round accurate hits that incapacitate. the entire deal was on the 5.56, not bolt Vs semi automatic.

[Multigunner]

I'd as soon have a dedicated survival rifle and a hi capacity all metal handgun as to carry a semi auto rifle in the supposed post apocalypse scenarios.

A over under Savage with .223 rifle barrel over a 12 ga shot barrel would be far more useful and weigh a lot less than most of the military type rifles.
A chamber adapter to allow use of .22 rimfire rounds would complete the package.
A lightweight hide out piece in .22 Rimfire would be optional for emergency use.

In a post apocalypse world those not eating long pig would most likely be eating dog, cat and rat than Moose and Elk.
The lucky ones would be feeding on squirrel and rabbit. A bucket full of .22 RF could go a long way.

Not much on this continent that a 12 ga slug won't drop if need be and a load of buck shot has settled a lot of disputes.

[Mauser 98K]

yep. in a SHTF situation, especially if the power is out, you run into food storage problems with big game, so smaller critters would be ideal. in the winter food storage is not as much a problem, but the middle of summer the larger critter would have a half life of about 3-4 days b4 ya couldn't stand to be around it. ya would have to go back to making jerky and the old ways of preservation if you wanted to store any of it without refrigeration.

but i consider the semi auto rifle i got as a just in case item reserved for 2 legged vermin only. it will most likely not be used much, if lucky maybe at all. fingers crossed. but id probably rely on the single shot .22cal i have and the bolt gun for game getting if the opportunity arose. but if you do find a critter in those situation you do not want to fire more than one shot in any case. the first shot lets them know someone is out there, the second shot paints a large red bullseye on ya britches. someone might decide to try and take your critter if they are desperate enough. but this is where i feel suppression technology come into play the best. you can game get and not alert anyone to your location. but game will get real scarce real fast in larger population areas, so the opportunity may or may not arise. it'll be a mess, that is for sure.

[Mauser 98K]

but as to the challenge.. i got no doubt that under controlled conditions and when the target that never moves that you could hit that full sized silhouette at 500 yards. i do not doubt it a bit. how many bullets does it take to get a hit cold bore though? can you dial the scope (if equipped) and achieve a first round hit every time? if not then you just warned the target. and will the bullet do critical damage to a man at that range? how is it with barriers? this is why the police abandoned the 5.56 for longer than 75m shooting, as it had trouble going through barriers, the bullet would fragment with every little thing it hit and go who knows where, and would usually not immediately incapacitate the target who took a hostage, especially if the suspect was doped up on something. if he was doped up on something then there was cases of the suspect was hit several times with the 5.56 and would still be fighting if a vital spot like the heart or nervous system was not hit. then it came to blood loss, which sometimes could take a little while. and what if im wearing armor? armor is very common here in the US. will that 5.56 do any damage out past 150m-200m if they are wearing armor? then head shots come into play. smaller target and the aim needs to be more precise. unless you just want to wound, which is a viable option if you just want to get out of the area. shoot for the groin area and legs and this will allow you to get out of the area.

the problem is that a man is not gonna just stand there in the open like your stationary targets. i know i wouldn't. it is human nature that when rounds start popping to dive behind cover, especially if the guy has any sense. then that full sized man target that you can put rounds on at 500m if it never moves turns into a moving target that ends up the size of a milk jug (the size of a head), smaller if he starts shooting back through a hole or gap. then it makes no difference if you can fire one round per second or as fast as you can, as you will then have to do controlled aimed fire to get any results, unless you just want to waste ammo.. plus in a true SHTF situation there is no backup and no CAS to call. the standard military combat tactics do not apply in a SHTF situation. training for clearing rooms and pinning the enemy down with thousands of rounds waiting on CAS or other indirect fire becomes useless. the rifle will be the main weapon used and will have to be all direct fire.

but the people who have this spray and pray mentality were and still are known as "machine gun survivalist". they were the butt end of jokes in survivalist and militia circles for years. and still are. i am part of and know people in the militia. some of these guys still are and most were military for many years. they don't see my bolt action as a handicap. there is a reason the M40 and M24 bolt gun is called a "Force Multiplier".

the (volume over accuracy) people actually got it in their head some where that the more rounds fired the better,this may be the case when engaging human waves or the targets pop up in the open.. but some people think that there is a point where it turns into a cumulative hit, totally ignoring that only hits that are on target count. so you can carry 400rnds or more. how fast does that go up at 800rnds a minute, which the AR and other semi automatics are fully capable of? do the math.. 400rnds at 800rnds a minute rapid fire... you will be out of ammo b4 one minute is up. even if you carried 600rnds that still is only around a minute or to 5 minutes tops depending on fire rate b4 you are out of ammo with the rapid fire. where is your supply chain? where is you wagon of ammo you pull behind you? it is best that in a world where ammo will become scarce real fast to not waste what little you do have. accuracy over volume fire is a must. but i understand that there is a trade off with any platform.

[Lloyd Smale]

so what you have is a deer rifle not a combat rifle. Never said the 223 was a good 1000 yard sniper round. But probably less then one half of one percent of soldiers in combat shoot past 500 yards anyway. A infantry weapon is a compromise. Every gun and every caliber has good and bad points. The m16 is low in recoil so that the average soldier isn't intimidated by it. It has much less muzzle blast then a 308 or 06. Something that matters a lot in close quarters. Its light. Much lighter then a ar10 ect. So its easier on the troops to carry around all day. Ammo is lighter and takes up less space so more can be carried comfortably. It is a heck of a lot easier to slap a new mag in a gun then to top feed a mauser or any other bolt. It is adequately powerful for the ranges 99 percent of combat happens at. Its an easy gun to maintain and about anyone with a half hour of training can replace any part on it. Find yourself a firing pin or firing pin spring spring for your mauser on ANY battle field. Its just as accurate as any bolt action mass produced gun at the ranges it is designed to work for. By the way what gives you the right to claim our soldiers today are so poorly trained that spray and pray is the norm. We have the best trained military front line soldiers fighting for us today that ever were. Were not talking a bunch of drafties forced into service trained for 6 weeks and thrown into the jungle.

You give up about all these advantages for one advantage with your bolt gun. the ability to engage targets better out past 500 yards. Which is maybe an advantage to wanabe snipers. The military isn't stupid. they issue a darned good battle rifle to there troops and maybe on in a 100 that is a QUALIFIED SNIPER gets issued a gun to take care of those small percentage shots and are highly trained soldiers capable of doing it. they not only can shoot smaller groups then you but can do it under the pressure of battle. The sniper himself is more the weapon the the rifle he uses. Ill put it simple.

Anyone here that would rather have mauser 98k backing him up with his deer rifle if being attacked by enemy troops 500 yards away then would choose a navy seal sniper with a scoped m16. Now I haven't seen a thing about his combat experience here. Maybe he served most likely he didn't. But even if he did hes not going to be my first choice to neutralize a target at 800 yards with his deer rifle. At least unless that target is a piece of paper or water jug. Way to much wanabe and walter middy stuff here.

But maybe we should have our polititians spend 10 million dollars of our tax money doing studys and billions of dollars of our tax money on a replacement for a gun that already works as good or better then any battle rifle on earth. One that very few REAL soldiers have a problem with. Its more of a problem with internet experts. Ive said my peace. Nothing I posted here isn't true. Good enough for the navy seals and every branches special forces its good enough for this guy.

Seems a bit strange that even the communist block countrys have gone our way and use 22 cal automatic guns and they don't even have to ask permission to spend money to find what works and what doesnt. Seems odd to me that they didn't go bigger or at least stay the same. Maybe they've decided they don't want to kill us anymore. Just wound us. Or maybe none of them are near as sharp as some of the experts here:roll:. Ill bow out of this one now. Obviously my firearms knowledge isn't on the same level as some.

[FLINTNFIRE]

In regards to post #160 , it was before the war that an agreement was reached on the 03 infringements , it was the spitzer bullet that was settled years after the war and payment to the munitions firm .

[Mauser 98K]

agree on most of that Lloyd. for within the range it is intended for and under most conditions it is fine. but as to top the reason they switched to the 5.56. you can argue this if you want, but it is well documented that the reason they switched was that most fighting went to close range and they needed a lighter weapon that was more controllable with automatic fire an could carry more ammo for long jungle patrols.. it was developed when we were in the jungles of Nam for jungle environments and close engagements. but how much military fighting these days is open range? a small percentage. the rest is MOUT and Cordon and Search. unless you get into the mountains of Afghanistan or the rural areas of the US most of everything is within 200m, and the 5.56 will be no problem. but where they are having problems with the 5.56 is when the insurgents are using their *** antiquated and useless Lee Enfield and Mauser rifles out past 300m-500m.. then the 5.56 becomes near useless as the research and first hand stories say, and it then all turns into indirect fire. tell me im wrong. this is all well documented. this was one thing i was trying to get at for the SHTF situation. in that situation there will be no CAS for you to call. this relying on the fancy CAS and other indirect means is shielding the shortcomings of the 5.56 in long range combat. if they were to remove the radio and all the indirect fire methods then i can bet the situation would change drastically. in the civilian world there is none of this stuff and you must equip accordingly. that is the point i was trying to make. this is not the military. this is civilian world where the rifle is the only means of fire you will have available.

but lets go to the 1980s when Russia was trying to empire build in Afghanistan like we are currently doing.. they had the exact same problem we are having now, the larger bore WWII weapons were an over match for their shorter range AK designs. remember that the 5.45x39 was already in service since the 70s at this time and was also inadequate for the long open spaces of Afghanistan. this stuff is all documented and has been studied to death. it is also why the military is currently actively seeking a better longer range cartridge. if the 5.56 was the perfect round then they would not be looking to upgrade.

but does this look like a dang deer rifle?
221530
this is a modified M67 Norwegian rifle. it is the Mauser action and the same forged .308 barrel used by their elite guys. the only difference is the scope, the stock, and the added muzzle brake..

but im still waiting on your grouping with that 5.56. i showed you mine, now show me yours. go outside tonight, while it is dark like i did, and do a 15rnd group that can be covered with a dime. ill wait. i mean if you are so good and the 5.56 is so Superiorly accurate then this should be something you could do in your sleep. in a real SHTF you will most likely have to do night fire, as it is when the idiot cowardly looters like to come after you. this will make it an accurate assessment. and walking around with a flashlight is a big no no. that is like saying "here i am"..

but, somehow this always keeps getting turned into the AR platform Vs full military dress K98. i said i had no problem with the AR. where did i ever say the AR was a ***? for some reason you keep getting a pole stuck up the wazoo about the M98 Mauser and just go after it as if it makes it obsolete and you automatically correct... if you still think the M98 is an obsolete killing rifle then stand down range and let me shoot you with it. but apparently you have never fired a good Mauser with good ammo.

but this is supposed to be about the 5.56 cartridge, not AR Vs M98.. stop getting butt hurt because i insulted you favorite cartridge that is obvious you never used in open range combat. the US will be open range. there is a lot more open spaces than city spaces.

but you never did ever go over to the snipers hangout websites i posted and ask them about the 5.56 and why they do not use it did ya?

but as to the civilian and a bolt action being combat ineffective. who are we fighting in the middle east? they sure as heck are not conventional forces. we are fighting farmers, mostly civilians. and are doing a pretty good job too, being they can tag someone from 600m with a crappy old bolt action that you keep saying will not hold up to a modern military force with the 5.56. and the Russians in the 80s didn't think they were ineffective either. if it were not for the radio and the indirect means of fire the taliban would have a very good advantage with the bolt action SMLE against the 5.56. but as said, in the civilian world you do not have this capability.

and as for recoil being a problem. with a proper muzzle brake the 7.62x51mm can have the recoil of a 9mm carbine. mine is low recoil, actually has less than my SKS. and at 6ft 4in tall and 240lbs (not all fat either) recoil is not a problem for me. now obviously if your a 2feet tall 25lb leprechaun you are gonna have problems with recoil.

[glockfan]

but where they are having problems with the 5.56 is when the insurgents are using their *** antiquated and useless Lee Enfield and Mauser rifles out past 300m-500m.. then the 5.56 becomes near useless as the research and first hand stories say, and it then all turns into indirect fire. tell me im wrong. this is all well documented.

exactly.

...and this is the why UK are slowly replacing their 5.56 by the good ol .308.

they already started with some ''speciality squads'''. but word is it's gonna be extended to the land soldiers.

the middle east and the high top mountains engagements....it's far from being over.

[Multigunner]

In regards to post #160 , it was before the war that an agreement was reached on the 03 infringements , it was the spitzer bullet that was settled years after the war and payment to the munitions firm .

Correct. I've tried to explain this many times in the past. An infringement is not a legal issue so long as the manufacturer reaches an agreement with the inventor. The U S Chief of Ordnance negotiated for payments to Mauser by way of his legal representatives in the U S. The payments were for various details of construction of the magazine , extractor and stripper clips and modifications to accommodate these.
The dual opposed front mounted lugs which are the heart of the Mauser design were either not patentable since they were lifted from the French Lebel by way of the Spandau GEW 88, or the protection had run its course before protection for the 1893 Mauser magazine and clips ran out.
In fact the American Greene bolt action rifle of the 1860's had dual opposed front mounted lugs. I think it was patented in the late 1850's.

A conflict between the Chief of Ordnance and the Comptroller of the Treasury was over the details of the contract with Mausers representatives, it was not made clear that there would be no reason to pay a royalty once the patent protections ran their course.
The U S Government withheld payments when we went to war with Germany and at the end of hostilities had to pay Mauser back pay with interest, but I've found no case number to indicate an actual lawsuit as such. Most likely settled in arbitration.

The .223/5.56 is deadly on medium size game at reasonable ranges and has a distinct advantage in very lightweight survival type rifle because of much reduced recoil compared to larger bore cartridges.

The ability to use Milspec ammo or soft point hunting ammo, both widely available is another plus compared to dedicated hunting cartridges like the .30-30.

A chamber adapter or two allowing use of .22 rimfire, from CB cap on up to LR or even .22 Magnum allows one rifle to perform several roles.
CB caps make so little noise that a silencer isn't needed to prevent announcing your presence when bagging small game.

In general the winner of any gunfight is the one who first puts a round into the opponents vitals.
Firing off ten or twenty rounds to take down one bad guy would certainly announce your presence.
If they are too close to avoid contact or disengage quickly that's where a hi cap handgun comes in handy.
The 12 gauge under barrel of the Savage is also a great close quarter persuader . Nothing will chill their ardor as quickly as one of their crew catching a face full of buck shot.

Main thing is to see them before they see you.

[Mauser 98K]

thanks for the extra info multigunner and FLINTNFIRE.

and agreed glockfan. that mess over there could very well drag out for another 20 years.

[Mauser 98K]

but back to the 5.56..

this is a Statement for the Record of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Airland Subcommittee May 18, 2017 By Major General Robert H. Scales.. http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/STATEMENT-Scales_05-17-17.pdf

in it you will find a quote of a guy from Walter Reed who was wounded and another guys killed by a suicide bomber. he states that with the 5.56 M4 that him and his buddies fire at least a full mag into the insurgent who was still able to get close and detonate the bomb he was wearing. said that the 5.56 rounds had little to no effect on the doped up insurgent.

here is the quote..
"Yesterday I was at Walter Reed and among others spoke at some length with a fine young Marine infantry officer, Lt David Borden, who lost a leg in Ramadi to a suicide bomber. He lost a leg along with other serious wounds, blast killed one of his lads, wounded others. Most notably, he emptied a magazine into the man charging them, at close range, even as his fellow Marines riddled him as well at close range. Certainly, the guy was on drugs, but the bottom line was that our assault rifle did not have
the stopping power to put the enemy down on first, second, third...fifteenth etc. rounds to the body... "

but this is not the first time this has happened..there are multiple accounts of this happening where the enemy combatant still was able to kill someone after taking 30rnds or more of the 5.56 to the body. but there was a guy over at the high road forum who said that in Nam one of his buddies emptied a mag into a Commie soldier who just sort of half way grinned at them and walked comely down the hill. they found his body the next morning with a glass vile and some bamboo stickers for injecting opium into the body.. the point is that even with a full clip of 5.56, sometimes the bad guy can still kill you b4 dying of his wounds, especially if he is high on something. in a lot of cases the 5.56 just does not have the power to stop the assailant, especially if he is high or a real big guy. you might kill him but sure as the day is long he will kill you b4 dying. that is why i do not advocate anything smaller than a 7.62x39 if you really want to put them down. but the 5.56 was too small for Nam, and it sure as hell is too small for today at the ranges encountered..

but here is the article from The Atlantic from Major General Robert H. Scales. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/01/gun-trouble/383508/

[Thundarstick]

I think the military is holding out for caseless ammo to be perfected. It does appear to be just around the corner and then all us reloaders will be just above a muzzleloader in firearms evolution! When caseless is perfected you will probably see a larger caliber projectile, in a more compact case(that burns up), larger round count loadouts that weigh the same as today, and more compact magazines to boot.

[Mauser 98K]

they been experimenting for decades on the caseless ammo. one experiment was the Heckler & Koch G11. https://modernfirearms.net/en/assault-rifles/germany-assault-rifles/hk-g11-eng/

one of the big problems with the caseless was that it does not like wet and humid environments and the charges can crack and fall apart if rough handled.

[Thundarstick]

(They been experimenting for decades on the caseless ammo.)

Yes, and when I was in high school if you'd told us a few years down the road I could carry a device in my pocket that I could talk to someone half way around the world, send written messages, pictures, watch videos, capture photos and video then post them to an internet site, order a pizza, buy just about anything from a ride to ammunition, find an answer to just about any question you can think to ask, find where you're at and where your going and turn by turn directions to get you there, then find your favorite food when you get there, share personal details no one cares about or needs to know, and debate endlessly about if the 5.56 will "get it done" I'd said you where just crazy! Yep, caseless ammo is coming. :wink:

[Mr_Sheesh]

I remember the Trounds, among other failed attempts at caseless ammo. Also heard about some work on liquid propellants, and so on. We'll see it when it arrives.

One rather nice thing is a lot of ways in the 'Stans is that the structure of society there causes a lot of hostiles there to not learn the basics of shooting, maintenance, etc, with some exceptions, I've been told. Not been there to check. Basically "Allah" will make the bullet go where he wills it, make the weapon go Bang! or not, as he wills it, etc. There's a military adage, "Never stop your opponent when they're making a mistake" and IMO that's definitely a mistake; If the folks over there were all good long range shots, that'd be far nastier. (Mind you, it's nasty just having someone lob a round in your general direction...)

[Mauser 98K]

(They been experimenting for decades on the caseless ammo.)

Yes, and when I was in high school if you'd told us a few years down the road I could carry a device in my pocket that I could talk to someone half way around the world, send written messages, pictures, watch videos, capture photos and video then post them to an internet site, order a pizza, buy just about anything from a ride to ammunition, find an answer to just about any question you can think to ask, find where you're at and where your going and turn by turn directions to get you there, then find your favorite food when you get there, share personal details no one cares about or needs to know, and debate endlessly about if the 5.56 will "get it done" I'd said you where just crazy! Yep, caseless ammo is coming. :wink:

i seen what ya done there. :p subtle, just like a bowling ball to the head.. but you are probably correct, the 5.56 thing has run its course and needs to be laid to rest.. nothing more can come form arguing in this thread anymore..

[Mr_Sheesh]

There ARE plenty of good uses as a civilian, for 5.56; Mine are varmints (Chucks, and Yotes, mainly, though a Raccoon aka 'Trash Panda" would be quite acceptable too) - Also lots of alternate calibers for the AR platform. Main thing I see is, ENJOY shooting! It's fun and a good skill to work on for your whole life :)

[Lloyd Smale]

In general the winner of any gunfight is the one who first puts a round into the opponents vitals.

Ill play off of that quote. The m16 in its various configurations is probably the easiest infantry weapon to do that with. It weights a 1/3 less then any gun before it (other then the m1 carbine) Ammo weights a 1/3 less or more. So our soldiers (keeping in mind we have women in combat today too) can carry it all day with much less effort and after carrying it for 8 hours are going to shoot it better. Add to that theres MUCH less recoil so it doesn't intimidate less capable shooters when they do have to use it. A 5.56 bullet in the lungs or heart is going to kill someone just as dead as a 7.62 bullet. A shot not in the vitals might see the 762 making a more horrific wound but it wont kill most times either. I remember when the 9 replaced the 45 and people would say a hit with a 45 would bowl someone over like they were hit with a sledge hammer. Not even close to being true.

Then add to this the versatility of the gun. It can be shot with open sights a red dot, accog, conventional scope or night vision. Any of which can be kept sighted in and swapped in seconds. No other infantry gun before it had that versatility. You cold mount a grenade launcher, lazer designator, flashlight ect in seconds so it can be configured in a few minutes to be ideal for the situation your called to enter. Want suppressed fire. 15 minutes it could be converted to 300 black out with a simple swap of a barrel. Same mags bolt ect. Granted most main line infantry troops don't swap a lot of things day to day but our special forces do. Would there be better choices. YUP. Maybe the same gun shooting a slightly larger caliber. But then like I said in other posts is it going to improve it enough to justify rearming every soldier we have with a new gun? At what cost to tax payers? Billions of dollars. Like ive said too its not the soldiers that are clammering for a replacement. Most of them are happy with the m16. Its internet experts and self proclaimed ballistics experts that make all the noise. So some major says we need a new gun. Some major sitting at his desk in his office trying to get a name for himself so that he gets promoted?? If some Navy Lieutenant commander wrote an article saying we had to redesign all of our submarines or air craft carriers because in HIS opinion or the opinion of a bunch of guys on the internet wed be better off with diesel subs or ww2 era air craft carriers hed get laughed out of the room. Even if he wanted newer more modern stuff being just a major or lieutenant commander he wouldn't even be asked.

For every low to mid level officer in the military that wants the m16 replaced I can probably find 50 that think what we have works just fine. Like it or not our military can only afford to spend 8 weeks training a new recruit. In that time he has ALOT more to learn then marksmanship. We don't graduate snipers and special forces that have a mastery of every weapon system right out of boot camp. Take a company of army boots. Some of them are women, some are city boys that never shot a gun before, most are kids that maybe hunted deer or rabbits but probably haven't shot a 100 rounds in there life. Put most of them behind a 308 or 06 and have them shoot a couple hundred rounds a day for a week (about what happens in boot camp) and half of them are just going to be afraid of there gun and flinch.

The 5.56 takes that problem out of the equation. Anyone can shoot one. Its easier to maintain then about any platform used in the military today. An hour of training and about anyone can at least field strip it and clean it. that includes even tearing the bolt down for cleaning. Then we would have to go through the NATO approved thing. Most nato countrys use 5.56 guns. Are you going to force them all to switch? Nato compatiblilty is probably the biggest reason we switched from the 45acp to the 9mm. Do you really think your reinventing the wheel here? Let me ask this. What would you really feel would contribute more toward winning a war? A switch from 556 to something like the 6.8 or buying another air craft carrier or a handful more fighter planes or some more drones that can kill without even exposing our troops to fire.

Some here don't like it. So what? Navy seals and other special forces guys that can about choose any weapon they want still for the most part grab and ar15 when the going gets tough. I guess I value there opinion over some guys on a cast bullet forum or even my own opinion. Bottom line is no matter what the military decides to do they have to do it in a real big way. We cant have two or three different rounds being used at the same time. Wonder what that would cost? Wonder how much money we have in guns, ammo and parts for m16s out there already that would probably just get destroyed because the liberals sure would balk at selling those full auto weapons to civilians. Or we could give them away to some foreign army that 10 years from now will probably be using them against us.

Our troops for the most part aren't gun nuts. there not like you and I that live and breath guns. Id bet over half of them never heard of a 300 bo or 6.8. Probably 80 percent of them never shot a o6 or 308 or even a 45 acp. I doubt but a small percentage would trade there m16 for something 3lbs heavier that kicked harder and held less ammo and allowed them to carry less ammo. Shots over 500 yards call up the squad sniper. Need some heavy caliber support bring up the saw gunner. Better yet use your lazer designator and call in the drone or hornet and stay on the other side of the mountain. that's what makes our military one of the most powerful in the world today. The fact that we have technology that others only dream of. We have special forces troops that are the best trained fighting men in the world that have the most sophisticated equipment on the planet.. that's where the future of our military lies. High technology. Why send in a whole company of infantry men with rifles when you can fly over a stealth bomber with smart bombs to level the enemy and be back having a cold one in a couple hours. All this replace the military issue rifle stuff is fun to talk about.

I'm 62 now and id bet theres not much more then talk that's going to be done until well after they put me in the ground. Even if they do change the issue weapon (m16) id about bet the 5.56 isn't going away. News flash. The military adopted a new handgun. The new sig. Still in 9mm though! News flash. Our police and federal agencys are switching guns. There going back to the 9mm. Not going bigger but going smaller. they too use the m16 and ar15. Don't see the fbi or state police depts. looking to swap out there 5.56 guns for something bigger. Don't see any of them willing to spend $$$ on studies to replace what already works. Last question before I do go for the last time. HOW MANY of you guys here that are bashing the 5.56 or are saying its obsolete actually were in the military and carried one and had it fail for them? How many of you have taken a bullet or watched a buddy take one because a well placed shot with a 5.56 failed to incapacitate the enemy soldier shot by it? How many were special forces guys here that had a choice and left the 5.56 back in the armory because it might cost you your life? Special forces guys are pretty vocal. If they felt we were sending them into harms way with an inadequate rifle id bet they would be screaming from the top of the mountain. But its pretty quiet. that is other then the experts on the internet.221647

[Multigunner]

Just remember not to expect more from a weapon than it was designed to deliver.

[Mauser 98K]

OK Lloyd.. Just one more question b4 I'm through... What unit did you serve with?

[glockfan]

5.56 has its utility at close distance.it lack stoping power at longer range in large open field. how a 40 to 85 grs bullet can display as much terminal stoping power as a 150 to 180 grs bullet at 600+ yards on
zombies stoned with CAPTAGON ? !!!

simple math and logics.

[Mauser 98K]

here is an article on just that situation glockfan.. http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan/13/world/fg-iraqdrugs13

from the article.. ""On the second day of the fight, word came down to focus on head shots, that body shots were not good enough," said 1st Lt. Tim Strabbing, a platoon leader with the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, one of the lead units in the assault to oust the insurgents. The battalion, known as the Thundering Third, suffered 23 dead and 300 wounded.

Strabbing said his platoon found five locations with stockpiles of needles and adrenaline. "My guys put five [machine gun] rounds into a guy who just stood there and took it and then took off running," he said.

Stimulants enable the body to continue functioning despite mortal wounds, forestalling, although not preventing, death, medical experts say.

Many combat veterans recall watching insurgents in Fallouja who had been shot at close range return fire and hurl grenades at Marines who stormed their strongholds.

"We actually shot four or five guys multiple times and they got up and moved across the room," said corpsman Quinton Brown, who had accompanied a front-line platoon to treat wounded Marines."

[Mauser 98K]

ans here is another article by Maj. Anthony F. Milavic, USMC on the stopping power if the 5.56.. https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html

from the article.. "American warriors reported enemy soldiers continuing to close and fire their weapons after sustaining multiple hits by 5.56mm bullets."

also from the article."several Marines commented that they had to shoot Iraqi soldiers 2—3 or more times with the 62—grain 5.56mm green tip ammo before they stopped firing back at them . . ..' That report is exemplified by one of an Iraqi officer who was thrown from his vehicle and set afire by an explosion: 'Somehow he managed to hold on to his AK—47. He also got up, still on fire, faced the firing line of Marines and charged forward firing his weapon from the hip. He didn't hit anyone but two Marines each nailed him with a three round burst from their M—16A2s. One burst hit him immediately above his heart, the other in his belly button. [He] . . . kept right on charging and firing until his magazine was empty. When he got up to the Marines two of them tackled him and rolled him in the sand to put out the fire. . . . He was quickly carried back to the battalion aid station . . .. The surgeons told me he certainly died of burns, but not necessarily from the six 5.56mm wounds . "

more from the article..."in Mark Bowden's book Black Hawk Down: 'His weapon was the most sophisticated infantry rifle in the world, a customized CAR—15, and he was shooting the army's new 5.56mm green tip round. . . . The bullet made a small, clean hole, and unless it happened to hit the heart or spine, it wasn't enough to stop a man in his tracks. Howe felt he had to hit a guy five or six times just to get his attention."

these reports of the 5.56 inability to stop a man in his tracks are everywhere. the ability of the 5.56 to kill a person has never been disputed, only the ability of the 5.56 to take the target down fast enough to prevent the target from getting you..

[500Linebaughbuck]

Lloyd Smale,

in the army, the 11B(infantry) is 13 weeks of basic training. 12B(combat engineer) is 14 weeks of basic training. they don't usually go to AIT.

everybody else(i think) goes 8 or 9 weeks of basic training and then they go to AIT (advanced individual training).

[one-eyed fat man]

Lloyd Smale,

in the army, the 11B(infantry) is 13 weeks of basic training. 12B(combat engineer) is 14 weeks of basic training. they don't usually go to AIT.

everybody else(i think) goes 8 or 9 weeks of basic training and then they go to AIT (advanced individual training).

19D (Cavalry scout) training is 16 weeks, 19K (armor crewman aka tanker) is 15 weeks.

[RU shooter]

I agree and believe all the reports about multi hits with the 22 cal even in the vitals But just like deer or other similar sized animals adrenaline can and will kick in and keep the animal be it deer or human going until the blood pressure drops to zero . I have seen and I'm sure lots of others deer hit with lots bigger calibers take a hit to the heart or lungs and still run quite a ways with the heart turned to mush from an expanding hunting bullet from a 308 or 7 mag ect . Point being don't think a different medium size caliber using ball ammo would have made much difference unless it hits CNS or breaks bone to instantly stop the actions

[EDG]

Yes animals can run about 10 seconds or about 100 yards when shot through the heart. But many do not run at all.
I have shot deer with 11 different calibers and some of those more than 10 deer each. I find the .223 class of rifles very lacking in killing power and tissue destruction.

[glockfan]

here is an article on just that situation glockfan.. http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan/13/world/fg-iraqdrugs13

from the article.. ""On the second day of the fight, word came down to focus on head shots, that body shots were not good enough," said 1st Lt. Tim Strabbing, a platoon leader with the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, one of the lead units in the assault to oust the insurgents. The battalion, known as the Thundering Third, suffered 23 dead and 300 wounded.

Strabbing said his platoon found five locations with stockpiles of needles and adrenaline. "My guys put five [machine gun] rounds into a guy who just stood there and took it and then took off running," he said.

Stimulants enable the body to continue functioning despite mortal wounds, forestalling, although not preventing, death, medical experts say.

Many combat veterans recall watching insurgents in Fallouja who had been shot at close range return fire and hurl grenades at Marines who stormed their strongholds.

"We actually shot four or five guys multiple times and they got up and moved across the room," said corpsman Quinton Brown, who had accompanied a front-line platoon to treat wounded Marines."



this post highlight this fact that either captagon or such deshinibitor combined with an opioid gives the result that,the pressure of the bloodstream stays ve'''normal''' ,even in critical situations like facing a death or life scenario. that means for a ',dedicated''' fighter that,even wounded to death, the dude will not react to it mentally, only a drastic and sudden loss of blood pressure is gonna take it down. with such small bullet, it takes many into the body to instills sudden and drastic losss of pressure in the blood stream,which means the doped dude will continue to fight witnh precision till the blood pressure goes completely flat or close to flat.

a 165grs bullet makes bigger holes,then imply more blood vessels cut for a single round ; more of these bullets in the body means a really fast loss of vascular pressure....and we're not talking about shots in the vitals here.

[Rick Hodges]

I wonder if the Soviets sat around carping: Geeze Sergei, we have to do something there are all these reports of American GI's getting hit with 7.62mm 130 gr. AK rounds running around and shooting up our surrogates with 22's. Why Ivan told me about this case of hitting this guy 3 times and he still closed and killed half an NVA squad. Hell, this SF Sgt. took multiple hits, grenade shrapnel and still closed and killed two with his bare hands. Those crazy GI's shoot often, shoot accurately and tear us up....we have to do something. Lets design a cartridge that duplicates theirs.

[500Linebaughbuck]

19D (Cavalry scout) training is 16 weeks, 19K (armor crewman aka tanker) is 15 weeks.

thank you!!!

[one-eyed fat man]

....took multiple hits, grenade shrapnel and still closed and killed two with his bare hands...

Got to see this quite a bit over the years and a couple of wars.

"Our guy' gets shot to pieces and keeps fighting = Medal of Honor; "their guy" does the same thing = "They must be high on some kinda drugs!"

"Sarge, it took half a mag to drop that VC (skinny, Haj, dink, etc) @#@^^*&&$!!!!" They do not like it much when you kick over the body, point out two holes and ask, '"Where did the other 18 go?"

By and large its been fifty years since any significant number of recruits grew up hunting. They have never tried or even seen anything killed bigger than mosquito. Having grown up watching TV, the movies, or currently, the latest iteration of "Grand Theft Auto" soldiers today are often extremely disappointed after their first firefight when the actual effects of small arms on live targets does not come close to their expectations.

[Mauser 98K]

The only program I have ever seen get it even remotely close is the "VBS" simulation from BIS Studios. VBS stands for "Virtual Battle Space". It was developed in conjunction with and for the military for virtual combat simulation. In it you can hit the bad guys in the legs,arms,abdomen,etc,and this will normally result in a wound and he can still fightback. More than once I seen an AI bad guy crawling around like a worm shooting because his legs were buggerd.. The closest civilian simulation that has the first generation VBS software in it is "Operation Flashpoint". It is close to the military version of it,except the bad guys do not shoot from tops of trees,windows,and roof tops.. They will get wounded and out flank you though. The best civilian version I know of is called "ArmA" or "Armed Assault". The first ArmA was and still is the most realistic military simulator available to the general public. Has realistic weapons physics, wounding capabilities,the bullets create sonic cracks,and the AI do unit tactics. These are not your COD idiot AI.

But in the end you still gotta remember it is a simulation.

[Lloyd Smale]

posted a whole long story of my 8 years but then thought who the heck am I trying to impress?? Someone who didn't ever serve. So ill leave it at this 4 years in the coast guard and 4 in the navy.
OK Lloyd.. Just one more question b4 I'm through... What unit did you serve with?

[Larry Gibson]

Lloyd

Thank you for your service.

[Lloyd Smale]

back at you larry!!

[Multigunner]

The Soviet 5.45 had a nose cavity that caused wounds similar to a hollow point varmint bullet. It was nick named "the poison bullet" because Afghan rebels hit just about anywhere were not likely to survive due to almost complete lack of medical care.
The Vietnam era 55 grain bullet could also tumble and fragment at close range causing devastating wounds.

No one doubts the severity of wounds from those cartridges when the target wears no body armor. These days any one can obtain body armor that can stop or at least absorb most of the energy of a 5.56 round.
The first thing Jihadis go for when hitting Afghan or Iraqi police stations is the stockpile of body armor. Its more and more common to see jihadis sporting armored vest of various makes.

The SMG has been put aside in favor of the assault rifle because pistol type rounds aren't all that effective against even minimal home made armor.
Body armor used by late WW2 Japanese air commandos was proof against the .45 ACP at point blank range but the .30 carbine would walk right through it.
Even Vietnam era flack vests could stop the .45 or 9mm at a reasonable distance.

A 5.56 bullet with penetrator tip may pass through most vests, but the resulting wound may not incapacitate an enemy even if he is not worked up or drugged.

PS the reason deer can run quite a distance after the heart has stopped or been destroyed is that there are internal valves in their blood vessels, similar to those in the human leg , that close up and exert back pressure to prevent sudden drops in blood pressure. The G suit used by fighter pilots work on a similar principle. The valves in the human leg blood vessels prevents you from blacking out when you stand up too fast, otherwise we couldn't walk upright.

[white eagle]

think 6.5 Creedmoor
nuf said

[Lloyd Smale]

just saw on another fourm where a poster posted a link to the military possibly adopting the 6.5 for sniper support. Not for the actual sniper. An ar10 type gun in 6.5 for his spotter. Now that makes real sense put them both in the field with different ammo and neither one having a long gun that's worth more then a paper weight if the run out because nobody else on the battle field will have ammo for it either. ONLY sane way to do it would do it all at one time. Infantry, special forces, marines, all branches and jobs. I don't know. I guess I'm not a general or politician. But it seems to me that slowly adapting a new round would cause LOTS of headaches. If snipers and special forces can benefit from it then do just them but all of them. Sure don't here many of them bad mouthing there 762s though or for that matter front line combat troops badmouthing the 5.56. Mostly internet experts. . Personaly I think its more of a matter of some upper echelon officer wanting to make a name and get promoted. Taking viet nam out of the picture because there was some learning curve and mistakes made with the 16 at the beginning that left a bad taste lets here from people that USED a 5.56. I don't care if you were a soldier or a police officer. But lets here some real experienced trigger pullers instead of this urban legand walter middy internet **** from guys that MIGHT have shot 4 deer in there life and none with a 5.56. then out of those guys who would swap your 5.56 for a springfield, mauser, or even a garand in REAL combat?? Remember now "call to duty" video games don't count. Must be at least some REAL experience here from Granada, Desert storm and even present day guys. Keep in mind too whos going to pay for it! You and me! Raise your hand if you can afford your taxes raised again. One thing for sure is whichever country we donate all our ars to will be well armed when they turn on us. What? Government wont give them away? What do you think they will do with them? Sell them to us!!!:roll::lol:
think 6.5 Creedmoor
nuf said

[Lloyd Smale]

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2018/06/07/futuristic-mini-sub-could-be-valuable-weapon-for-navy-seals.html this is the kind of technology we should be spending our money on. Not wasting it on a problem that doesn't exist. We already have a battle rifle at least as good as anything else out there. Bet not to many navy seals would rather switch to a 6.5 then have one of these. Technology and training are what makes a difference today in this high tech world. I'm all for sitting back on the back line sucking on a beer and letting a drone do the shooting.

[Mauser 98K]

So I take you was never a boots on the ground soldier?

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I didn't read the whole thread, but when Dad was in the Corps, they came one day, took his beloved M14, packed it in cosmoline, and handed him a slow twist 5.56. He still mourns the day...

[Mauser 98K]

a lot of guys hated that day. they were good with the M14, trained with the M14, and some stuff shirt legislates them a new weapon that handles totally different and has half the power and range.

but to answer any questions about me Lloyd.. no i have not served. i will not lie about this nor try to lead anyone on. i will not assume to be an expert on combat as i have never been in combat in the military definition.. i have been in a few altercations and got shot at a few times in bad section of town, but that is the limit of my real world experience. i however have friends in the military, in law enforcement, and got blood kin who have died in every conflict this country has ever fought. if it were not for the fact that the military does not take people with certain health problems i would have served after i graduated school.. i tried but got denied. but do not get me wrong, im as willing as anyone to put boot to *** for this great nation if the situation arose.. the best i can do right now is information. that is why i do tutorials and give my information freely to help others be better prepared in the event that something does happen...

but all i did on this thread was to agree with those who have fought with the 5.56 in places where you are more than likely using the weapon system in the upper limits of its design..here in the US there will be a lot of places where the 5.56 is seriously under powered. what i was pointing out is that in a civilian world where you have no CAS or other indirect fire methods, where there is no medevac, you need to put the target down as fast and as accurately as you possibly can. if it takes half a mag load to stop the intruder who just popped out to stab or shoot you then it is very possible for him to do enough damage to you to kill you b4 he finally dies. especially is he is high on drugs, which is a very large problem in the US right now. but the information i have given can be verified by military studies and first hand accounts of troops who have been in combat. to deny this first hand information is to call these guys liars.. i fully believe that what happened to them happened, and i will take the first hand experience of a guy who has fought in combat over someone who never did any day..

[RoyEllis]

Well, the actual problem is not with the caliber....it lies with the fact that fmj bullets are mandated for military use. All the hoopla surrounding the 5.56 is to be expected when 1 shot stops are the expectation albeit unrealistic. Similar stories abound from clear back in WW1 of men shot several times but would not go down. Also well known was fmj milsurp ammo's poor record on game animals....shot 'em & shot 'em but they just run off. Expecting anything less than a .50 BMG fmj round to knock down the enemy is folly, as my first team Sgt. told us "Keep shootin the SOB til your certain he don't need any more killin".
Mauser98K, before you bet on that x39 round just because it's bigger, has more energy etc. let me apprise you of the story of a man shot 7 times by AK47 fire and not only survived but was able to continue a firefight for 6 hours. As you stated "and i will take the first hand experience of a guy who has fought in combat over someone who never did any day". Without further ado, I introduce you to one of the finest men I had the honor to serve with MSgt Raul "Roy" Perez Benavidez. In quotes is his CMH Citation detailing action.

"BENAVIDEZ, ROY P.
Rank: Master Sergeant
Organization: U.S. Army
Company: Detachment B-56
Division: 5th Special Forces Group
Born: 5 August 1935, DeWitt County, Cuero, Texas
Departed: Yes
Entered Service At: Houston, Texas June 1955
G.O. Number:
Date of Issue:
Accredited To:
Place / Date: West of Loc Ninh on 2 May 1968




Citation

Master Sergeant (then Staff Sergeant) Roy P. Benavidez United States Army, who distinguished himself by a series of daring and extremely valorous actions on 2 May 1968 while assigned to Detachment B56, 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne), 1st Special Forces, Republic of Vietnam. On the morning of 2 May 1968, a 12-man Special Forces Reconnaissance Team was inserted by helicopters in a dense jungle area west of Loc Ninh, Vietnam to gather intelligence information about confirmed large-scale enemy activity. This area was controlled and routinely patrolled by the North Vietnamese Army. After a short period of time on the ground, the team met heavy enemy resistance, and requested emergency extraction. Three helicopters attempted extraction, but were unable to land due to intense enemy small arms and anti-aircraft fire. Sergeant Benavidez was at the Forward Operating Base in Loc Ninh monitoring the operation by radio when these helicopters returned to off-load wounded crewmembers and to assess aircraft damage. Sergeant Benavidez voluntarily boarded a returning aircraft to assist in another extraction attempt. Realizing that all the team members were either dead or wounded and unable to move to the pickup zone, he directed the aircraft to a nearby clearing where he jumped from the hovering helicopter, and ran approximately 75 meters under withering small arms fire to the crippled team. Prior to reaching the team's position he was wounded in his right leg, face, and head. Despite these painful injuries, he took charge, repositioning the team members and directing their fire to facilitate the landing of an extraction aircraft, and the loading of wounded and dead team members. He then threw smoke canisters to direct the aircraft to the team's position. Despite his severe wounds and under intense enemy fire, he carried and dragged half of the wounded team members to the awaiting aircraft. He then provided protective fire by running alongside the aircraft as it moved to pick up the remaining team members. As the enemy's fire intensified, he hurried to recover the body and classified documents on the dead team leader. When he reached the leader's body, Sergeant Benavidez was severely wounded by small arms fire in the abdomen and grenade fragments in his back. At nearly the same moment, the aircraft pilot was mortally wounded, and his helicopter crashed. Although in extremely critical condition due to his multiple wounds, Sergeant Benavidez secured the classified documents and made his way back to the wreckage, where he aided the wounded out of the overturned aircraft, and gathered the stunned survivors into a defensive perimeter. Under increasing enemy automatic weapons and grenade fire, he moved around the perimeter distributing water and ammunition to his weary men, re-instilling in them a will to live and fight. Facing a buildup of enemy opposition with a beleaguered team, Sergeant Benavidez mustered his strength, began calling in tactical air strikes and directed the fire from supporting gunships to suppress the enemy's fire and so permit another extraction attempt. He was wounded again in his thigh by small arms fire while administering first aid to a wounded team member just before another extraction helicopter was able to land. His indomitable spirit kept him going as he began to ferry his comrades to the craft. On his second trip with the wounded, he was clubbed from behind by an enemy soldier. In the ensuing hand-to-hand combat, he sustained additional wounds to his head and arms before killing his adversary. He then continued under devastating fire to carry the wounded to the helicopter. Upon reaching the aircraft, he spotted and killed two enemy soldiers who were rushing the craft from an angle that prevented the aircraft door gunner from firing upon them. With little strength remaining, he made one last trip to the perimeter to ensure that all classified material had been collected or destroyed, and to bring in the remaining wounded. Only then, in extremely serious condition from numerous wounds and loss of blood, did he allow himself to be pulled into the extraction aircraft. Sergeant Benavidez' gallant choice to join voluntarily his comrades who were in critical straits, to expose himself constantly to withering enemy fire, and his refusal to be stopped despite numerous severe wounds, saved the lives of at least eight men. His fearless personal leadership, tenacious devotion to duty, and extremely valorous actions in the face of overwhelming odds were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflect the utmost credit on him and the United States Army."

Following is a slightly more detailed account...

“Get us out of here! For God’s sake, get us out!” The cry for assistance came from a twelve-man Special Forces Recon Team that was pinned down in thick jungle and surrounded by a North Vietnamese Army (NVA) battalion (approx 1000 men) west of Loc Ninh. Three choppers had already attempted a rescue but were driven back by small arms and anti-aircraft fire. Benavidez did not have orders to go, but with a medical bag in one hand and a knife in the other, he jumped into the bay of a Huey revving up for another rescue attempt.
Intense enemy fire in the area kept the chopper from landing. Hovering 10 feet off the ground, Benavidez made the sign of the cross across his chest and leaped off the chopper. The long-suffering recon unit was 75 yards away. Benavidez began the deadly gauntlet, fell when an AK-47 round pierced his right leg, sprang back to his feet but was immediately knocked off his feet again by a hand grenade that ripped his back and neck. Those initial wounds were the first of thirty seven separate bullet, shrapnel, and bayonet injures he would receive during the next 6 hours of violent combat.

Praying aloud to his Creator, Benavidez mustered the valor to rise again and run under fire to the crippled 12-man squad. He found 4 dead and 8 others badly wounded. He began passing out ammo to the soldiers still able to fight; he injected morphine into the wounded; he called in air strikes, then was hit again. Bleeding and in pain, Benavidez dragged dead and injured men to the hovering chopper while providing cover fire with an assault rifle he found on the ground. The chopper moved to recover even more bodies. The enemy fire increased.

Benavidez made another mad dash to retrieve classified documents of radio codes and call signals still secreted on the body of the dead team leader. As he seized the documents, Benavidez took another round in the stomach and additional shrapnel fragments in his back. Coughing up blood, he attempted to return to the chopper only to see the pilot receive a mortal wound. The Huey crashed to the ground.

Undaunted, Benavidez pulled wounded from the overturned chopper, called in more airstrikes, and directed the fire from helicopter gunships. Blood trickled into his eyes, temporarily blinding his vision. In the midst of deadly fire, Benavidez sat up a defensive perimeter and continued to rally injured soldiers to fight on. He later recollected, “I made the sign of the cross across my chest so often my arms looked like an airplane propeller.”

Before the second chopper came in Benavidez was wounded several more times. Urging the injured to fight on and keep praying, he slung a wounded soldier over his shoulder and scurried for the chopper. En route to the Huey, an enemy soldier jumped up and clubbed Benavidez from behind with the butt of a rifle; Benavidez and the wounded soldier fell to the earth. Bayoneted in both arms, Benavidez managed to grasp the bayonet which gouged his hand but gave him enough time to pull out a knife and kill the enemy soldier. Now with a shattered jaw, both arms lacerated, a slashed hand, bullet holes and shrapnel in his body, Benavidez assisted the last remaining injured man onto the Huey – their Vietnamese interpreter.

The rescued soldiers inside the Huey pulled Benavidez’s battered body aboard the chopper. Blood pooled, then flowed out the bay door. The flight back to Loc Ninh was a 20 minute ordeal with Benavidez holding his intestines in his hands during the entire trip. At Loc Ninh, Benavidez was triaged and pronounced dead. As the doctor attempted to zip up the body bag, Benavidez could only marshal enough strength to do one thing to prove he was still alive: he spit in the doctor’s face.

As you ponder this, keep in mind he was shot 7 times (one bullet transversed his chest destroying his right lung and exiting just below his heart) he was bayoneted in both arms, and had 28 grenade shrapnel wounds along the length of his body (including 2 pcs lodged in his heart muscle where he carried them til his death). He fought non-stop 6 hours with these wounds and was not on drugs as the ones in your quoted stories. I submit to you this thought...use expanding bullets no matter what the round is, fmj can't be relied upon to do the job expected with any efficiency. Oh and never believe a story told by military brass when they have a financial agenda...ie kickbacks for helping a company a new weapons contract. Don't believe me? Do the math yourself, figure civilian cost for 7 mags, a barrel and bolt in either 6.8sppc or 6.5 grendel, multiply that by approx 100,000 line battle troops, add $500.00 each for ammo. Now subtract your total from the "projected cost for upgrade" and ask yourself "where in the H is all that extra money going?"
Remember, prostitution is the oldest business but war is the most profitable business.

[Mauser 98K]

agreed. FMJ is not the ideal stopping design. the big reason i don't have much of it on hand except for practice or for better barrier penetration. if it were up to me id let the guys who wanted to load their 5.56 with the A-Max 75gr. problem is that is a big no no according to the conventions and you're buggered if they catch you doing it..

[Mr_Sheesh]

Non FMJs are fine for civilian use - Just not for .mil use.

[303Guy]

I've mentioned the combatant who took three AK rounds to the chest at close range and lived to tell me about it. I've also mentioned the 7.62 fmj passing through small critters (cat size) and not stopping them while the 5.56 blew those same critters apart - at close range. I've compared the effects on game of 55gr soft point .224 bullets with .308 bullets and they were indistinguishable. That's not even fired from a 223 but a 22 hornet (a hot load though). Range was 200 meters, measured on one occasion and closer on other occasions.

That said, I have no experience shooting people, with or without body armor. What I did find though is that I could really shoot with my little mini-14 in 5.56 fitted with a scope. I was known to never miss. Where it failed miserably was getting through the lightest of obstructions. The largest game animal I killed with it was an African bushpig (big mama) and all it did when hit was run off. I aimed for the heart and heard the hit. We found it about forty paces into the long grass and bush. That would be about the distance it would have run with a heart shot. No different from a larger caliber. I wouldn't hunt pigs or any other fair sized game with a 223 again but I wouldn't feel inadequately armed with a mini-14 in a SHTF situation (unless I needed to hunt for survival). Not in the environment I can imagine finding myself in anyway.

[Lloyd Smale]

read post 207.
So I take you was never a boots on the ground soldier?

[Multigunner]

A tid bit of information. Much was made of some of Saddam's troops being found to be armed with M16 rifles. Liberalistas were claiming the USA had armed Saddam's regime. Turned out the M16 rifles found were Viet Nam era rifles actually sold off by the Vietnamese who'd captured these rifles decades earlier.
They had tried converting those captured rifles to 7.62 with limited success, so found it better to just sell them off and buy rifles they could more easily obtain ammo for.

[Combat Diver]

My magazines are loaded with M855A1 and Mk262 Mod 1 (77gr OTM) lately as these are the most accurate. Seems to work for me and others. If I know they are wearing armor, while then I'll get some belted M995 and delink that AP ammo. If not M855A1 will still work and still fragments inside bodies at distance from the short 10.3" bbls. I only fire M855 for range fodder. I practice shooting the 5.56mm out to 800m when I can.

My kit with G17
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/32677/IMG_5053-575226.JPG

If I had a 7.62x51, I'll carry that instead. Have carried the FAL and M14 in Iraq and Astan before. However that is a rifle who's time has been passed. The Mk17 SCAR is better for todays battlefields. Here's my oldest son and I in Baghdad 04', pistol is a M1911A1
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/P1000225.JPG

Those are all secondary weapons as my primary are the Mk44 Mod 3 (M134) 7.62mm Minigun, Mk47 40mm Advanced Lightweight Grenade Launcher or the M3 84mm Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifle. Learn to shoot everything you have available to your utmost. I've engaged steel targets at 300m with a M9 Beretta before cause I could.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/zeus_rz.jpg
https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/16/48/54/01/img_4612.jpg (https://servimg.com/view/16485401/1129)

CD

[glockfan]

^^^^

such opinion coming from a proffessional is food for thoughts.

[Geezer in NH]

Elmer Keith disliked the M1 for what that is worth.

Old guys dislike change . I know I am an old guy. However a 7.62 platform is heavy. I got rid of the best liked ones when I could not pull back with my left hand the charging handles.

I have no problem with the AR platform that way and they weigh much lighter. Don't shoot good at 1000 yards I have no where to shoot that far in NH let alone would need to shoot that far away.

Seems in our military they need more mortar units or more air cover if the truly need 1000+ yard support. Why don't they have that???

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't think anyone here is saying the standard foot pounder needs a 1000 yard gun. Truth be told a 300 yard shot is a stretch for most infantry men. Especially when theres bullet flying back the other way and your heart is in your throat. This 1000 yard bs is just the realm of snipers and internet commandos. 1000 yard shots are even extreme for trained snipers.