38-55 rifling - 3 or 4 or 5 groove?

[KenH]

Hello all - I've been hankering for a 38-55 for a while now, finally got around to removing the barrel from a Marlin 336 type action and thinking of sending to JES for reboring. A question for ya'll - for shooting cast bullets, perhaps the 379-250-RF Lee mold, should I go with 3, 4, or 5 groove rifling?

Also, can JES set the headspace with only the barrel? OR - will he need the action also?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Ken H>

[Shawlerbrook]

Best to ask JES, but I’m guessing he will need the entire rifle to headspace. As far as rifling goes I’d also ask, but when I did my 356 Win. he said there wasn’t much difference, but I don’t shoot cast in it.

[ReloaderFred]

I had Jesse rebore my Marlin 336W to .375 Winchester with the 3-groove. I shoot mostly cast bullets through it, and it groups them tightly. I believe he'll need the barrel in the action to set the headspace, but it's best to ask him.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[WALLNUTT]

Call him about the barrel/action thing. I just removed the wood and mailed the rest. I have 3 groove, works just fine. I didn't really care for the LEE. I just can't warm up to a bevel base in a rifle but that's just me.I have 4 other 38 moulds and they all shoot good, even the 143gr gallery bullet.

[northmn]

Difference in philosophy as some think odd numbered rifling is best because there is no directly opposing lands. Makes them trickier to slug. I use a Lee mold for my 38-55 and it works fine. If I went to another mold it would be a gas check. Definitely would send the receiver with the barrel.

DP

[KenH]

Thanks for the input folks - Since the existing barrel with sights, extractor groove, etc is already indexed to the action I wasn't sure how the headspace would be set. Since a rimmed cartridge is headspaced off the rim (isn't that correct?) the headspace has to be set while boring the chamber - isn't that correct?

I removed the barrel to do some clean up on the outside, and take out a .010" swelling on outside of barrel about 6" from the crown. It's currently chucked up in lathe.

I'll call JES next week and chat with him about 3 or 4 grooves, and if he needs the action. It seems ya'll all sent action with barrel?

Thanks again for your input.

Ken H>

[ReloaderFred]

Jesse Ocumpah, (JES) only lives about 90 miles from me, and I sent him the whole rifle. He was attending a gunshow and a friend of mine hand delivered my rifle to him. I had it back in the mail 5 days later (Sunday to Friday), but that was several years ago. The turnaround time may not be quite that quick now, since I believe he's gotten busier, but it will still be pretty fast when compared to other gunsmiths.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Texas by God]

I only mailed the barreled action, no stock. Got the standard 3 groove on a .358 Win, shot it, grinned real big and never worried about the twist again.

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[KenH]

.358 win? Isn't that a rimless case based on the .308 winchester? How does the lever action handle the rimless cartridge? That's a LOT of cartridge for a lever action isn't it? Wait, you just said "barreled action" - that could be a bolt action. I've got an old lever action 30-30 which are rated for a max around 42K psi while the .358 win is rated around 52K CUP.

[ulav8r]

Thanks for the input folks - Since the existing barrel with sights, extractor groove, etc is already indexed to the action I wasn't sure how the headspace would be set. Since a rimmed cartridge is headspaced off the rim (isn't that correct?) the headspace has to be set while boring the chamber - isn't that correct?

I removed the barrel to do some clean up on the outside, and take out a .010" swelling on outside of barrel about 6" from the crown. It's currently chucked up in lathe.

I'll call JES next week and chat with him about 3 or 4 grooves, and if he needs the action. It seems ya'll all sent action with barrel?

Thanks again for your input.

Ken H>

He should be able to headspace it without the action if you provide the dimension from the front of the receiver to the face of the bold to the nearest .0005 inches. Much better to send the action and let him do the measuring and checking of completed work. He would be a fool to do the barrel without the action and then guarantee the work. Some idiot could send a barrel with a wrong measurement and then complain when it did not work.

[Texas by God]

.358 win? Isn't that a rimless case based on the .308 winchester? How does the lever action handle the rimless cartridge? That's a LOT of cartridge for a lever action isn't it? Wait, you just said "barreled action" - that could be a bolt action. I've got an old lever action 30-30 which are rated for a max around 42K psi while the .358 win is rated around 52K CUP.I'm sorry, yes it was a Rem 700 bolt action.
I'm thinking hard about sending my 94 Win to him and I'm not taking off the barrel.

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[Hickory]

I sent J.E.S. my Marlin 336 last September for Reboring and rechambered to 38-55 with 3 groove rifling. Just shooting the first thrown together load produced a group of less than 3" at 100 yards with open sights. As soon as I get time I'll mount a scope and work up a load.

[KenH]

Ya'll sure have convinced me I really "need" a 38-55:wink: I do plan to call JES tomorrow and see what he says, and if he thinks my barrel is ok to bore to 38-55 with the swelled spot in the barrel. I would think it'd be ok since the outside of barrel was only about .010" larger and that should leave plenty of room for boring inside.

BTW, with JES doing the boring, does this use the longer 38-55 brass (2.125" long) vs the shorter (2.080"?). Do most folks use the Starline brass? I do MUCH prefer Starline in 45-70, 50-70, and .43 Spanish.

Ken H>

[WALLNUTT]

JES recommends Winchester(short) brass but Starline short or long works fine in mine. Depending on the dies used the Winchester brass will grip a smaller diam bullet better. JES recommends bullets sized .376-.377 but mine will accept a larger diam using Starline. Accuracy is good either way but I don't hot rod my loading so excess pressure is not an issue for me.

[KenH]

OK, I just got off phone with JES and the barrel will be shipped out this week for a 38-55 rebore and 3 land riflings. He says since this barrel came off the Marlin 336 action, there is no need to send action, barrel only. The 30-30 and 38-55 both headspace off the rim, and he won't be touching the rim in rechambering the barrel, so the only concern is the barrel indexing, and since it's off the same action, no problem with indexing.

Wallnutt - JES confirmed short Winchester brass and .376-.377 cast bullets as best, so we're in business. Only a week or two turn around. I've screwed a Glenfield 30-30 barrel into the action, so I'll have to hurry up and do some shooting with it if I want to test the Glenfield barrel in the action. It indexed nicely, and headspace checked good.

Thanks to all for their help.

Ken H>

[TXGunNut]

Glad to hear you got it worked out. You won't be disappointed.

[Hickory]

Ken;
You're going to like the 38-55.
It's a mild shooter that has better ballistic coeffency then the 44 mag with the same weight boolit and with the modern gun you should easily get 200 fps more than what a 44 magnum would get. You can consider it a 200-250 yard shooter.

[KenH]

Update on my 38-55 saga. JES should be getting the barrel today. Thanks to WALLNUTT I've got a Lee 379-250-RF mold "out for delivery", and order a set of Lee 38-55 dies that are "Out for Delivery". Yesterday I made a .377" sizing die for the cast bullets. If that's a tad small, I can easy open it up another thousandths.

This is gonna be fun!! :lovebooli

[T-Bird]

You will! I love mine. He rebored a Win mod 94 for me last year I got 3 groove, It shoots great with that Lee boolit. I shoot at about 1350 fps with 4227, because I wanted the level it started with without the black powder hassles. I save those for my muzzleloaders.

[KenH]

OK, another update - I got the mold in over the weekend, cast some bullets with the mold, the dropped out right at .379", powder coated them -I still lube for black powder but LOVE PC for smokeless shooting. The sizing die I bored/polished for .377" (a loose fit with a .377" pin gauge) sized the PC'd bullets .379".

I made another sizing die for my old Lyman 450 which has a loose fit for a .376" pin gauge. The PC'd bullets mic at .377" from this die. So, I've got some PC'd bullets ready for testing that are sized at .377" and some at .379". We'll see what actually chambers in the JES bored barrel. This is for loading in Starline brass, and perhaps some in old fireformed 30-30 brass. We'll see how it all works out, once I get the barrel back from JES. He received the barrel on Sat.

Ken H>

[ole_270]

My JES 3 groove rebored Marlin likes both .377 and .378 sized bullets with a slight preference for .378. Started out with the Lee mold and switched to an Accurate 38-250B plain based mold, much easier to cast good bullets with. The rifle likes both bullets though with the lower velocity loads I typically use. 10 gr Unique or Universal are great for plinker type loads, 31 or 32 gr 3031 makes a fairly stout hunting load. Both are really accurate in my rifle.
I use the RCBS Cowboy dies with the larger neck expander to keep from resizing the softer bullets I use during bullet seating.
I've only used the Starline 2.082 short brass and it works great in this setup.

[KenH]

I just got 50 of the Starline 2.082" brass today from MidwayUSA. The expander in the Lee die set seems to work, but doesn't expand the neck as far down as I would like. That will be one of the next things I make, an expander plug so the bullets won't be hardly as tight in neck. Do you know what diameter your expander is?

I suspect the lower velocity loads will be 90% of my shooting since that's all that's needed to put holes in paper or ring steel gongs.

Now, just playing a waiting game until JES gets my barrel shipped.

Ken H>

[Pioneer2]

What R.O.T. will shoot 250-300gr bullets ? The factory win 1894 is like 1-20 I think?

[Schreck5]

What R.O.T. will shoot 250-300gr bullets ? The factory win 1894 is like 1-20 I think?

I talked to JES about my 38.55 project and he is using a 1:15 twist. He also recommended the 250 gr. bullet, but that the heavier (285gr.) should work also.

[KenH]

OK for a quick update on the 38-55 saga. I got the barrel today, got it blued and it looks pretty good. I screwed barrel into action. Boy did that have to be TIGHT!!! to index properly. By laying a 12" ruler across the sight dovetail, then another across the action flat on top, it was pretty easy to tell when index was correct. Got the barrel screwed in, but still have to finish up with magazine and misc stuff, but just can't wait to fire something.

I loaded up a 30-30 brass with 5 grains Bullseye, put some filler to fill space, then plugged end with beeswax. Shot and it fireformed nicely. Looks just right and would work just fine. It is about .055" too short for the 2.082" 38-55 brass I ordered. I'm sure ya'll remember there are two different lengths, 2.082" and a 2.125" length brass. Take your pick - either works in long chamber. JES says he recommends the 2.082" so that's what I ordered when I ordered new Starline brass. Looks like I could have got by with fire forming the old 30-30 brass, but didn't wish to take a chance. 50 new brass with correct headstamp only cost $30 shipped so I decided to get new brass, but did want to try fireforming.

Now to finish rifle and load some shells.

Ken H>

[Texas by God]

That sounds great, post it up when it's lined out!

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[KenH]

OK, you asked for photos - here are a couple. First photo is of the barrel showing the Western Auto brand.
https://image.ibb.co/cnoNAy/38_55_barrel_info_s.jpg

Next is the full rifle - looking at the photo, not sure what those stripes are showing on barrel. They're not there in real life. I used Brownel's Oxpho-Blue which seems to do an excellent job.... for a cold blue:lol:
https://image.ibb.co/mjmyiJ/38_55_full_rifle_s.jpg

So far I'm having fun with rifle and it seems to shoot just fine. Using the Lee .379-250-F cast bullet with lead/tin alloy and around 10-11 BNH around 1200 to 1300 fps seems to be about max before groups start opening up. Not having a good bench rest, the best I've done is 1"X1/2" group at 50 yds (max I can shoot in backyard). That's with 17 grains of IMR-4759 powder.

[T-Bird]

I have a JES 3 groove modified Win '94 that I wanted to use at black powder velocities with smokeless. Found that with IMR 4227 and dacron filler. I'm getting that sized group at 100yds (with a 3x9 scope). I size mine .378.

[KenH]

Congrats T-Bird on your rifle - you're getting for sure a good group at 100 yds. Hopefully I can close my group up some with a bit more work. What bullet and lube are you using? When you say "black powder velocities" - are those in the 1200 to 1300 range? Or, just what are the black powder velocity for 38-55 with black powder?

I've not considered black powder because of the hassle of cleaning a lever action rifle..... but maybe since removing the bolt is only 1 screw it wouldn't be so bad? Does the action need cleaning much down in the magazine portion when using BP?

Again, congrats on a good group at 100 yds.

Ken H>

[Dan Cash]

I've not considered black powder because of the hassle of cleaning a lever action rifle..... but maybe since removing the bolt is only 1 screw it wouldn't be so bad? Does the action need cleaning much down in the magazine portion when using BP?

Again, congrats on a good group at 100 yds.

Ken H>


I only use BP in my original 1893 Marlin.
The bore is cleaned with water and the receiver is blown out with an air hose perhaps once a year. My load is 42 grains of Old Eynsford 2Fg under an Accurate 250 (260 gr as cast). There is no discernable blow back so receiver stays clean and rust free. Go ahead and try BP, you might like it.

[T-Bird]

Ken, I shoot the Lee 250gr boolit formerly with Lyman Super moly lube, now with Hi-Tek supercoat. The load I use now is 16.5gr 4227, dacron,Lee boolit for 1350ish fps.I was under the impression that this is a load comparable to a 250gr 38/55 load with BP. Dan, none of the BP fouling from the brass falls into the receiver when they are ejected? I've shot BP in muzzleloaders for years, but I can take them apart and wash them good. Are you using the Lee boolit with BP Dan?

[Dan Cash]

............ Dan, none of the BP fouling from the brass falls into the receiver when they are ejected? I've shot BP in muzzleloaders for years, but I can take them apart and wash them good. Are you using the Lee boolit with BP Dan?

I don't have any problem with residue from the fired cartridge infiltrating the receiver. The gun dates to 1893 and except for the ejector which I replaced, the innards look original so what ever lands in side the action does not seem to do harm. My bullet comes from an Accurate mould, 250 grains but don't remember which one.

[T-Bird]

That's cool Dan. I briefly shot my Pedersoli 45/70 sharps in the '90's with BP got good results, just lost interest in that pursuit I guess, washing brass etc decided that when I'd go black, I'd muzzle load, might revisit that area.

[Texas by God]

I'm so tempted to send my 94 30-30 to get rebored. And I can use the same bullet in a .375 H&H.

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[northmn]

I tried fire forming 30-30's and they work, but it is a PITA and Starline brass is so much better and not that expensive. 4198 is also a good powder for the 38-55. I guess if some are getting accuracy with BP then it works, but many BP barrels had wide grooves and narrow lands to allow for fouling. In another discussion I asked an owner of an original Ballard if his rifling was the same as Marlin's "Ballard" rifling. He mentioned that difference.

DEP

[KenH]

I tried fire forming 30-30's and they work, but it is a PITA and Starline brass is so much better and not that expensive........ DEP

Yep, I'm with you, I just had to fireform some 30-30 brass, and it works nicely, but is a tad short. My fireformed brass is only 2.020" long while the Starline is 2.082" or 2.125" long. Since a tuber magazine almost requires a crimp, I really like to have brass all the same length.

[Prodigal Son]

My JES rebore is a 5 groove paid extra for it, but it's a tack driver! I am using a 254 PB from a Lyman 375xxx mold that cast some wonderful boolits!222387
Using w-w brass with IMR 4198 getting squirrel gun accuracy!

[indian joe]

I tried fire forming 30-30's and they work, but it is a PITA and Starline brass is so much better and not that expensive. 4198 is also a good powder for the 38-55. I guess if some are getting accuracy with BP then it works, but many BP barrels had wide grooves and narrow lands to allow for fouling. In another discussion I asked an owner of an original Ballard if his rifling was the same as Marlin's "Ballard" rifling. He mentioned that difference.

DEP

I reformed 30/30 brass for a 375 Big Bore ages ago (PMC brass) just made a 3/8th expander from a high tensile bolt - nice gentle taper on the end and threaded into one of my RCBS dies - one pass and its done - yes they end up a little short for 38/55 - would work but proper brass is cheaper now.

[9.3X62AL]

I am really enjoying my JES-rebored Win 94 in 38/55. It is the 3-groove form that Mr. Ocumpah considers "OEM", and it has shot very well with plain-base Lee 250 grasin flatnoses and with both the RCBS and the Lyman flatnose 250 grainers with gas checks. 50 yard groups hover just a bit over 1", and 100 yard groups run 2.5" to 3.0". Using open irons on a carbine that has two iron straps binding the barrel and magazine tube.......I find that acceptable. It's a LEVERGUN--1.5" of radial distribution from group center will make venison and whomp coyotes very well at any range appropriate for the 38/55.

The only anomaly I have noted while playing with this rifle--and I am about 750 rounds into it--is that published data for the 38/55 can be a mite over-pressure. My belief is that a lot of what gets published concerning the 38/55 was derived by using undersized bullets in oversized bores. When you assemble ammo with close dimensions to the rifle using same, some caution is indicated as far as powder weights are concerned. Make haste slowly while stair-stepping your loads upward from published starting powder weights.

Pet Load so far--the Lee 250 atop 22.0 grains of IMR-4198, which corresponds to Ross Seyfried's writings on smokeless-powder-for-black-powder-ballistic results. This load consistently stays at 1.1"-1.3" at 50 yards (1375-1400 FPS), and I am so happy with its performance that I have set aside 10 cases and filled them with this load and the Lee bullet cast as a Bruce B Soft Point. Cal-DFW says I didn't draw a desert muley tag (again) this year, so this brush load will get the call in the local mountains this coming deer season.

[KenH]

Interesting comment on the 5 groove, I asked JES about which to get (difference in price was not an issue), and he says 3, 4, or 5 all shoot the same. Only reason to get 4 over 3 was for ease of measure a slugged barrel. So, based on his advice I went with the 3 groove. Sometimes I wish I'd got the 4 groove - you know the old saying, you always want what you didn't get. :)

9.3X62AL: your results are about what I'm getting with IMR-4759 power and shooting around 1200 fps on chrono. With 9 grains Unique powder (1157 fps; ES=29) best I've got was a 7 shot group with 5 shots in one hole, and two shots about an inch away in one hole. I've got that much wobble with my shaky rest.

Ken H>

[9.3X62AL]

The country I'll hunt this Fall offers shots on bucks between 10 and 50 yards, max. This load will be fine in that environment.