Getting a rifle for shooting black powder cartridges...recommendations?

[DakotaElkSlayer]

I have been kicking around getting a rifle for just shooting black powder cartridges. The rifles I currently own are already all dialed in for smokeless, so I don't want to mess with them. Thinking of a single shot of some sort to mess around with...longer range plinking and maybe a little hunting later. Looking for suggestions on something I can get into without breaking the bank...under $900, less is always better. Any suggestions on calibers, actions and brands? Ones to look for, ones to avoid?

Thanks,

Jim

[Edward]

Swap and sell has an H+R 45-90 in your price range now and you do not need to load it with more than you need as anything going 1200 FPS with 500+ grains kills anythin walking around here :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[Boz330]

With a budget that low it might be tough. You might slip up on a used Pedersoli for that. The H&R is an option but it is a light rifle and recoil could get to be a problem.
Stay away from anything made by IAB. You might try some of the gun sale sites. That way you can get an idea of options and prices and you might get lucky.

Bob

[marlin39a]

I'd say the H&R would be good. I use a Sharps 45-110 for serious work. For play, I have an H&R in 38-55.

[725]

^^^^^ H&R are built like tanks and the one in the Swappin' - sellin" section would be a good fit for your bank.

[Don McDowell]

You'll be hard pressed to find a rifle capable of "longer" range within your price limit.
45-70 will do most everything you listed.

[marlin39a]

I forgot about the new Henry single shots. 45/70 would be my choice. Unsure of their availability right now.

[Nobade]

Speaking of H&R, those officer model trapdoors they made a while ago are really neat and can usually be had within your budget. And those are a rifle worth owning.

[varsity07840]

Speaking of H&R, those officer model trapdoors they made a while ago are really neat and can usually be had within your budget. And those are a rifle worth owning.

They really pound you shooting off a bench.

[RustyReel]

I think there is a Taylor's sharps a few threads down that is in your price range. I'm not affiliated with the thread/seller but I've been eyeing it for a couple days......

[calaloo]

I vote for a Uberti High Wall in .38-55. Not too punishing for plinking and casual shooting and an excellent hunting round. Ain't no slouch for target work either.

[country gent]

Finding a rifle in your price range is going to be tricky. The true long range sights ( soule long range ladder and a spirit level globe) are at new cost close to your budget. Watch the gun shows, estate auctions, web sites and see whats available. I jus brought home from a local gun show a very nice Remington rolling block with 32" badger barrel MVA long range soule rear Hadley eye cup and MVA wind gage spirit level front globe along with nice walnut stock and forearm for $1000.00 so it can be done.

Watch for Remington rolling blocks, 1874 Sharps ( C SHarps Shiloh, pedersolis are the better) , Various high walls. ( again C SHarps pedersoli browning), Trap doors can be fun but are lighter and iin 45-70 with a 500+ grn bullet recoil can be interesting. A used gun may allow for better sights on it and a lower price.

Another route to go would be to buy one of the Remington rifles coming in cheap right now and set it aside. when funds allow buy the barrel blank and continue this till all the parts are on hand. Then have if built into what you want. A longer process but you get a very nice rifle and just what you want.

The 45-70 is the go to cartridge here for these rifles. Recoils is there but in a balanced rifle at 11 1/2-12lbs it isn't bad. Its common performs well an is easy to work with. The 45-90 and up are more and may be more recoil powder and lead use, and other costs than you want.

The 40s are also something to look at. 40-65 is common easy to work with and recoil is a little lighter than the 45-70 in comparable rifles. Brass can be purchased with correct head stamp or formed from 45-70 for the 40-65. 40-70SS is also in the choices a decent cartridge brass has to be made from 303 or 405 basic brass. Bullet weight is normally in the 400 grn range for these.

Last on my list is 38-55 and possibly 38-56. These are pussycats as far as recoil. I would recommend a 1-12 twist barrel for mid range / long range use. The 38-55 has readily available brass with correct head stamp, 38-56 is made from 45-70 brass I believe. It is a bottle necked cartridge. With bullets in the 335 grn -360 grn range and 12 twist barrel it performs well to 500 yds.

For most of the calibers I listed reloading dies are available. Moulds and other needed accesaries are also readily available. A lot can be made with simple tools and thought at home, blow tubes, and cross sticks come to mind .

I currently shoot 45-70s (3), 45-90 (1), 40-65 (1), 38-55 ( 1). The center hammer rifles can be nice and on some offer a faster lock time over the side hammers, but there is also something to be said for that big graceful hammer on the side to. The rolling blocks and hepburns are easier to shoot prone and from the bench due to the lack of under levers.

[Nobade]

Hmm, the OP said longer range plinking and maybe hunting later. Everything has been focused on single shot target rifles. But depending on what is to be hunted and how far away long range plinking is, just about any pistol caliber levergun fills the bill. A 44wcf or 45 Colt with a ladder sight can be a mighty useful thing further away than you might think, and it will kill game effectively at reasonable distances.

[sharpsguy]

I have an iron frame Uberti Henry copy with the barrel ladder sight. I have killed several crows in the 200 to 250 yard distance envelope. I had to have the distance with a laser rangefinder, but the 200 grain 44-40 bullet worked just fine. I also have a Marlin 1894 in 45 Colt that is very accurate with the 250 grain Keith bullet, and it hits noticeably harder than the 44-40. Unfortunately the Marlin does not have the ladder barrel sight. Don't sell the 45 Colt short, it gives easy pass through penetration on deer.

[Deadeye Bly]

You should be able to pick up a decent 1884 or 1888 trapdoor Springfield with the Buffington sight for under $900. I got a decent one last year for $600 and won the trapdoor challenge match at River Bend Gun Club in GA with it shooting 200, 300 and 600 yards. Yes, they kick. The stock is designed for offhand shooting. The 1888 model is heavier with the ramrod bayonet. The Buffington sight works well for target work. It is not so good for hunting but certainly can be used.

The Marlin Cowboy series of lever action rifles should work OK if you want a repeater. They can be loaded with black powder and the bolt removes easily for cleaning after a shooting session. They can be had in 45 Colt, 38-55 and 45-70.

[Knarley]

They really pound you shooting off a bench.
I'll second that!!! Just got one, 405 gr. on top of 50gr FFg, I shot it 4 times and put it away.

[Bigslug]

.38-55 High Wall with a more modern, faster twist barrel for 300+ grain compatibility. Brass is readily available from Starline, it's a known mid-range accuracy round, and it won't brutalize you.

[bstone5]

I shoot a H&R Handi Rifle in 45-70. Installed peep sights with a lot of vertices adjustments.
I load Trail Boss powder in this Rifle. The Trail Boss gives reasonable accuracy and the loads do not punish the shooter. I shoot 50 rounds at one seating and my shoulder does not hurt after the day at the gun club. I have shot black powder but the rifle kicks too much for my old age.
The rifle shoots accurately from 50 yards to 200 yards.
I shoot the Handi-Rifle a lot, have a 35 Remington barrel for the same rifle a shoot a lot of cast bullets with the 35 barrel installed.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Thanks so much for the replies, gentlemen....I really appreciate all of them! Reading many of your posts on other threads, I really appreciate your answering my question since you guys are way out of my league. As for the recoil of the .45-70 Trapdoor shooting black powder, how does it compare to shooting a "modern" load through the 1895GS that I own? I don't mind the heavy push versus the BAM! of shooting 225gr, 2700fps out of my H&R RMEF Whelen...not a real fun gun off the bench. 45 Colt? Never even crossed my mind! Was looking for a single shot since I am thinking of the cleaning of black powder. My only experience cleaning BP is out of my sidelocks...are lever guns that much tougher to clean? Who is IAB?? Any of the Italian manufacturers that should be avoided?
Thanks again guys...if you have any other pearls of wisdom, please let me know. I am in no rush unless I find something that really speaks to me. I live in Reno, so I have the Big Show coming up in August...it is like a museum, but there are some deals to be found.

Jim

[varsity07840]

I'll second that!!! Just got one, 405 gr. on top of 50gr FFg, I shot it 4 times and put it away.

70 gr loads loosen your teeth!

[rfd]

DES - you've given yerself a tough row to hoe with yer allotted gun budget.

the H&R's are light mass weight .45-70's and with the 3 or 4 buff classics i had years ago i just pulled off the butt cap and loaded it up with lead shot to bring the total weight up to 9# or so, and added a kick killer butt pad. all that made it fine to load and shoot with trap door type rounds. the real concern with the H&R's is their break open action - if you want to go really long range, you'll need a tang vernier soule sight and since it's a break open action, that sight and the front sight are on two different moving planes, repeatable sight consistency may become an issue. these will be the same considerations for the henry s/s rifle, which is poorer yet since it's got a real short sporter barrel.

you'd need to find a decent used gun that's dirt cheap, which to me means a pedersoli built gun (under a number of different rebrands, too - avoid ALL the rest of the offshore guns that are not pedersoli built). you'd still need to acquire just decent (not good) sights, as well as all the components to cast good bullets and build good cartridges. to do all this for $900 is a pipe dream and you'd need a good miracle to happen otherwise. LOTS depends on just what you want the gun to do for you, but i sure wish ya good luck!

[Bent Ramrod]

I think Deadeye Bly’s advice is the thing to go with if you’re committed to no more than 900 scoots. An original Trapdoor in reasonable outside/excellent inside condition can be gotten well within that price limit. By all means, get the Buffington sight. Set up this way, and loaded properly, I’ve seen Trapdoor shooters nipping at the heels (or better) of the shooters of dedicated BPCR target rifles with tang and globe iron sights. There are also Trapdoor Class shoots, if you are interested, and, of course, if you want to plink at gongs, you should be good to 600 yards or a little better.

They’re like Model A Fords; always there, always available, always liquid if you want to sell or trade them and spare parts will be available forever. There’s even some guy who puts a fly or something on the tumblers of originals to bring the trigger pull down to modern proportions. A friend got this done, and said the modification doesn’t take the rifle out of the Trapdoor Class in competition.

For hunting, I dunno. It won’t be a scoped Mountain Rifle, a feather to carry and shooting flat to 300 yards. But it will be hard-hittin’, brush-bustin’, wind-buckin’, and tack-drivin’ at normal hunting ranges. And something cool and historical to look at, too.

[indian joe]

Bob
I shoot an IAB marcheno sharps - good accurate barrel - pretty case hardening - sweet trigger - that rifle would suit the OP to a tee - cost me 400 when a pedersoli was selling for around 1600 - mine had been tuned pretty good - I would take another one like it tomorrow - just need to pay attention when you lookin at these type of bargains - the so called junker manufacturers made some good stuff along the way .

[Boz330]

Bob
I shoot an IAB marcheno sharps - good accurate barrel - pretty case hardening - sweet trigger - that rifle would suit the OP to a tee - cost me 400 when a pedersoli was selling for around 1600 - mine had been tuned pretty good - I would take another one like it tomorrow - just need to pay attention when you lookin at these type of bargains - the so called junker manufacturers made some good stuff along the way .

I bought one for $265 and it wasn't worth that. There was a gun store here locally that became a distributor for them and had so many come back that they dropped them. Another store bought all of the ones that came back and that is where I got mine, but with the intention of using the action to create another gun. Some of the typical problems were off center chambers, extremely oversize chambers, soft lock parts that wore out very quickly and many problems that I forgot in the 10 years since.
A good friend with a machine shop in his basement took one of them and turned it into a nice gun. Not a project for an average person though. He worked my lock over as well as the triggers and I sold it without going any further with the project. I really didn't care for the automatic safety on the breech block and the guy I sold it to was contemplating starting BPCRS. I sold it with full disclosure. It was sold by him to a gunsmith who has never done anything with it as far as I know.
If you got a good one, more power to you. If you do a search here you will find a plethora of similar experiences. There are just too many good guns to take a chance. Here if you keep a sharp eye on Cabela's or Dixie Gun Works you can find a Pedi for close to the money he wants to spend. I got a Pedi hunter model with pistol grip and 30 inch barrel from Cabela's several years ago for just under $1000. It was on sale and I lucked into a 15% Veteran's discount as well. I also had $500 in Cabela's credits so the price came in at $477. Of course as other people have pointed out I still had to put good sights on it, which cost more than I had in the rifle, but I shoot it in competition out to 1200yds and it shoots better than I can shoot it.

Bob

[rfd]

IMHO, all offshore bp guns other than pedersoli or investarms will be a cr@pshoot of sorts. YMMV.

[ELFEGO BACA]

In the late 90s I bought a used Pedersoli 1874 Sharps in 45/70 for $800.
I then added a front sight with level.
After a few more $$$ was saved I added a MVA Buffalo Soule rear sight for under $500.
It now works well if I do my part.
Ocassionally I can hit the 1000 yard gong wind permitting.

[Knarley]

Those high dollar Pedersoli rear sights are not a good idea either. They have twice the lines on them, making it real tuff to set. And they have considerable back lash too.

[rfd]

Those high dollar Pedersoli rear sights are not a good idea either. They have twice the lines on them, making it real tuff to set. And they have considerable back lash too.

i fully agree - those pedersoli sights are at best just ok and are missing key features. about the cheapest of the good vernier soule tang and spirit globe front sights will be the lee shaver super grade set, just under $500.

[Boz330]

I've had good luck with Red River and Distant Thunder sights. Easy to read and repeatable. The last I bought were under $500, which was several years ago.

Bob

[dagger dog]

With my H&R Buff I slip on one the Limbsaver boots and am shooting from a stool with sticks, the rear sight is one of the Pedersolis that I bought off TOTW for $85.00 the front is stock but I use Lee Shaver inserts.

Stuffing the 45-70 case full of Goex FFg and packing over top with a 500+ grain boolit gives a kick about like from a 12 gauge slug.

[Knarley]

I have a pair of Kelly sights, one on my Pedersoli and one on my Shiloh. Really like them.

[EDG]

With some shopping skill you should be able to get a used but like new Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Replica for $900.
If you shoot a .45-70 you really need the rifle to weigh about 10 lbs or more.
An original Trapdoor in nice condition would be good at $900 I guess.

I also own the H&R Buffalo Classic. It is shootable but the rifling is very shallow and is probably not too good for black powder. The rifle is too light for serious shooting unless you weight it down. The quality of engineering and workmanship is not going to give many pride in ownership.

Still one of the best deals around are the Browning 1885 BPCR models which run about $1500 to $1600 used. These rifles come with a good set of sights if you get all the original components. However they are too heavy for most hunters at 12 lbs.

The standard Browning 1885 is not a bad rifle and they sell used in the $700 to $900 range. They do not have a tang for a tang sight but the WILLIAMS FP works well for ranges out to about 300 yards and for hunting. These rifles are very easy to find. They are very strong and mine are also accurate.
For the most part less is NOT more coming from an eternal bargain hunter. Your $900 budget is barely at the bottom of the range it takes to get a fairly
good rifle. Consider bumping up the money to about $1100 to $1300. Research and shop wisely for a like new but used Pedersoli and you will have a decent rifle.

[rfd]

in the past i've had at least 2 buff classics and both were 1:18 ROT with bore/groove of .450/.458 = .004 rifling, which is the norm. it works just as well as any other similar barrel for black powder and both greaser and ppb alike. however, this rifle has inherent issues which will not make it even decent for bpcr/bptr use.

i think that for the most part these dayze, pedersoli cartridge bp rifles are finally being recognized as not inferior and are commanding good resale value if in at least good condition. as such, one can save about $300 or so on a used one, IF a good one can be found. however, for $1100 to $1200 a new one can be had at DGW. as always, if to be used for bpcr/bptr a good sight system will be required along with assorted other accoutrements for shooting/cleaning, and cartridge making, and that alone can run durn near another $1k or so. ain't dis stuff fun?

[Boz330]

in the past i've had at least 2 buff classics and both were 1:18 ROT with bore/groove of .450/.458 = .004 rifling, which is the norm. it works just as well as any other similar barrel for black powder and both greaser and ppb alike. however, this rifle has inherent issues which will not make it even decent for bpcr/bptr use.

i think that for the most part these dayze, pedersoli cartridge bp rifles are finally being recognized as not inferior and are commanding good resale value if in at least good condition. as such, one can save about $300 or so on a used one, IF a good one can be found. however, for $1100 to $1200 a new one can be had at DGW. as always, if to be used for bpcr/bptr a good sight system will be required along with assorted other accoutrements for shooting/cleaning, and cartridge making, and that alone can run durn near another $1k or so. ain't dis stuff fun?

Yes it is. It is pretty amazing how quick you get use to the cost of accessories. At first it is WOW and slowly, "well that's not so bad" and then you just order it and figure "cost of doing business".

Bob

[indian joe]

Thanks so much for the replies, gentlemen....I really appreciate all of them! Reading many of your posts on other threads, I really appreciate your answering my question since you guys are way out of my league. As for the recoil of the .45-70 Trapdoor shooting black powder, how does it compare to shooting a "modern" load through the 1895GS that I own? I don't mind the heavy push versus the BAM! of shooting 225gr, 2700fps out of my H&R RMEF Whelen...not a real fun gun off the bench. 45 Colt? Never even crossed my mind! Was looking for a single shot since I am thinking of the cleaning of black powder. My only experience cleaning BP is out of my sidelocks...are lever guns that much tougher to clean? Who is IAB?? Any of the Italian manufacturers that should be avoided?
Thanks again guys...if you have any other pearls of wisdom, please let me know. I am in no rush unless I find something that really speaks to me. I live in Reno, so I have the Big Show coming up in August...it is like a museum, but there are some deals to be found.

Jim

Jim
I shoot lever guns and muzzle loaders and cleaning a top eject lever gun is way easier and quicker than cleaning any muzzle loader - my lever guns are 44/40, 38/55 and 45/75 (so all blackpowder design cartridges that dont have a problem with blowby crud getting in the action - ) They no more difficult to clean than a single shot rifle - maybe I have a few tricks but its easy!!!!! .......and yeah if you want to PLINK longe range - you can have a lot of fun with a 44/40 with a ladder sight or a cheap tang sight (Track has a 5 inch vernier tang sight for 85 bucks - they work fine) --- Country Gent tells us he got a long range outfit for $1000 - the sight equipment he describes would cost most of that - he should have twinges of guilt every time he thinks of the person on the other side of the deal - a feller could tear the hip pocket off his jeans in the rush to get the wallet out for a deal like that!!!

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Jim
I shoot lever guns and muzzle loaders and cleaning a top eject lever gun is way easier and quicker than cleaning any muzzle loader

Now, you have me intrigued... Is it much different cleaning a Winchester than a Marlin? I find cleaning muzzleloaders quick and easy, so your saying lever guns are easier to clean is good to hear.

Black powder rifle is delayed a bit... Was in Idaho last weekend and stumbled across an older custom 257 Roberts that screamed for me to take home to Nevada.

Jim



Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=DakotaElkSlayer;4366699]Now, you have me intrigued... Is it much different cleaning a Winchester than a Marlin? I find cleaning muzzleloaders quick and easy, so your saying lever guns are easier to clean is good to hear.

Black powder rifle is delayed a bit... Was in Idaho last weekend and stumbled across an older custom 257 Roberts that screamed for me to take home to Nevada.

Jim

Jim
I never owned a Marlin - but a top eject gun is easy - I made a cleaning rack (the one pictured is collapsible for travelling but a better deal is a solid one for the shed on a base board 8 or 10 inches wide) ------upside down is the trick I reckon - you dont want ever to get water in the magazine tube - also made a flush bottle - so I hold the gun muzzle down but upside down as well - so we maybe at 45 degrees - put the plastic tube in the chamber give it a flush - onto the cradle - one stroke with a wet patch (or a brush if you prefer) in hand another flush - on the cradle another stroke with the brush - another flush -- probably do the flush and brush three times then dry patch it and oil the bore - once the first of the flush water comes out clean its good to go - I leave my solid cleaning rack on a bench in the shed with the cleaning rod, a ice cream container of clean patches, flush bottle, a gallon of water, and a can of wd40. I dont shoot a lot of rounds like the CAS fellers do but that '76 has had 200 through it in the last month plus I shot a couple of muzzle loaders and a 92 - those open top lever guns are really really easy. I clean my sharps the same way - and from the front end (got a 45 degree brass muzzle protector on all my rods - I have watched the guys that clean from the back and most of em end up with the steel rod flopping onto the rifling as the patch clears the end of the barrel - I dont figure I am doin any worse and its a heap easier)



220228220229

[EDG]

Still have a Buffalo Classic and the bore dimensions are .452/.458 and appear noticably shallower than my other .45/70s.


in the past i've had at least 2 buff classics and both were 1:18 ROT with bore/groove of .450/.458 = .004 rifling, which is the norm. it works just as well as any other similar barrel for black powder and both greaser and ppb alike. however, this rifle has inherent issues which will not make it even decent for bpcr/bptr use.

i think that for the most part these dayze, pedersoli cartridge bp rifles are finally being recognized as not inferior and are commanding good resale value if in at least good condition. as such, one can save about $300 or so on a used one, IF a good one can be found. however, for $1100 to $1200 a new one can be had at DGW. as always, if to be used for bpcr/bptr a good sight system will be required along with assorted other accoutrements for shooting/cleaning, and cartridge making, and that alone can run durn near another $1k or so. ain't dis stuff fun?

[Randy Bohannon]

I just looked at a Rem. Rolling Block at Rocky Mountain Discount store in Sheridan WY. It's $700. With fluted 30" 40-65 barrel, very nice barrel unknown who made it, nice case colors still remain and a great trigger, has unknown maker of what appears to be a decent LR vernier sight, quality looked good. Lyman front sight. The not so good, someones attempts at a pewter fore end, it show's. has original Remington R.B stock with CC butt plate. It would make a great intro/project gun you could shoot and work on the issues as $ came available. I liked this rifle and had I not spent a pile $ on new revolver I would have this rifle. Could work a deal with them, they deal.http://www.rocky-mountain-sports.com/

[Chill Wills]

Complete with the fluted barrel :lol:. Now that was someone's interesting choice on a traditional rifle. The rifle IS priced right for someone to buy and get started. That is for sure.

[Boz330]

Complete with the fluted barrel :lol:. Now that was someone's interesting choice on a traditional rifle. The rifle IS priced right for someone to buy and get started. That is for sure.

Inverted octagon barrel. A good price especially if the tang sight is any quality at all. Probably pre 98 so it could be shipped direct. Somebody should jump on this.

Bob

[Randy Bohannon]

If it's still around next month I might grab it,I see a nice Treebone Crarving restock and for end,It would be good to go.It needed a really good cleaning and waxed up. The weight of it would make a great hunting rifle and it's 40-65 a huge plus for a light rifle.

[Boz330]

If it's still around next month I might grab it,I see a nice Treebone Crarving restock and for end,It would be good to go.It needed a really good cleaning and waxed up. The weight of it would make a great hunting rifle and it's 40-65 a huge plus for a light rifle.

Like this one; Treebone stock and in 40-65, my deer gun.

Bob

[Randy Bohannon]

Gorgeous Boz, Yes. something like that.

[Knarley]

220600 Tree Bone too

[Boz330]

220600 Tree Bone too

What kind of wood is that Knarley? Very nice.

Bob