The reason that your SKS or AK47 will not group..

[Mauser 98K]

not sure if this is where this goes or not, but the SKS and the AK47 are military rifles so i figured it was close enough..

we all love the SKS or the AK47, they are great rifles. they will usually function when all others stop and you cannot beat them to death with a hammer. however, the SKS and the AK47 have gotten a bad reputation as being inaccurate at any range further than 100m. the reason could be the rifle itself, especially if the barrel is worn badly. in most cases it is the ammo used.

most if not all foreign made SKS and AK47 rifles have either a .310 or a .311 bore, while the variants made in the US usually have a .308 bore. it my or may not be for this reason that most commercial ammo is loaded with undersized bullets in the .308-.309 range. in this case we will be using everyones favorite dirt cheap cartridge, the Wolf 7.62X39mm.. a lot of the cheap military Russian and China ammo have similar problems as the Wolf, but the Wolf cartridge is the one most likely to be encountered when people are shooting the SKS or AK47 so it will be the one talked about. the Wolf ammo is a cheap round that almost always goes bang, so one cannot complain in that department. however, there is a reason it is a cheap cartridge. made to sloppy tolerances, each projectile can vary wildly from .307-.309 in the same lot and box.
219705

each projectile can also vary in its diameter. i have seen some pulled 7.62x39mm that was egg shaped and tapered. the bullet was pulled with an inertial puller so that there would be no deformation of the round. this is the most accurate way to pull bullets for checking. the lead core in a lot of pulled rounds were also not fully locked into the jacket and would actually rattle a little bit. this would give rise to inaccuracy itself as the core would move independently of the jacket and throw off the entire rotational stability of the bullet. but the real problem is that sub standard ammo has given rise to the thought process that the AK and SKS are inaccurate and are only good for close range spraying or plinking. in reality, with proper ammo the AK47 and SKS can be as accurate as a 30-30WIN. it takes a properly made projectile of the proper diameter so that the projectile is fully engaged into the rifling and not allowed to become misaligned in the barrel.
219706

this is the reason that when accuracy problems are encountered that one should always compare the ammo to the bore of the rifle b4 blaming the rifle itself. there is no reason the 7.62x39mm cannot be a good accurate round to 300m with the proper matching of the ammo to the rifle..

another problem encountered with the 7.62x39mm is expansion.. im not sure if it was by the Geneva convention or some other convention that has limited the 7.62x39mm to ammo that will not expand (something to do with no expandable ammo in military arms). most ammo bought today, especially the military ammo and Wolf ammo, will not expand no matter what you do. you can usually fire a Wolf Hollowpoint into ballistics gel and you can almost reload the thing into another cartridge and fire it again, it is that resistant to deformation. this has limited it as a hunting cartridge and self defense round.

but this is my 2 cents on the 7.62x39mm..

[458mag]

:razz:That explains why the zombie prep boys always set there zombie sillywet targets at the 25 yard range and still shoot shotgun groups.

[GhostHawk]

Yep!

Proper .312 to .314 bullets can make a huge difference. They did in mine.

Went from minute of 5 gallon bucket at 25 yards to picking off quarter sized pieces of broken clay pigeon at 50.

[EMC45]

Good write up Mauser. The one time I loaded for the SKS and AK I used proper 123gr. .311 soft point bullets. The SKS was very accurate and the AK not so much.

[evoevil]

Got a 311 noe mold I'm going to try for it

[nagantguy]

Good write up and confirms my findings as well. As always fit is king. As a side note I e found Silver Bear to be more accurate and consistent from box to box and lot to lot.
There can also be wide variations between lots and manufacturers in 7.62x54. Again the cure to ring out the accuracy the rifle capable of is to follow the steps,chamber cast slug the bore, polish and scrub every thing possible. My good friend and accuracy nut has an SKS that went from barn door at 50 to 1.5 consistently at 100 with the above steps and sizing his boolits to .3115 The same ammo
Shoots well in all my 7.62x39 rifles

[gpidaho]

A properly built 7.62X39 cartridge can be very accurate in a rifle built to tight tolerance. Look at all the times it's been used as the basis for wildcats that have made the grade to factory built loads. My CZ bolt action is a tack driver when you listen to CZ and feed it properly sized ammunition. AKs and SKSs are built to serve a function and that is to go bang under the worst of conditions. If a dirt, mud or sand covered round is going to chamber tolerances need to be LOOSE. This doesn't lead to match grade target accuracy. Gp

[Texas by God]

Good write up Mauser. The one time I loaded for the SKS and AK I used proper 123gr. .311 soft point bullets. The SKS was very accurate and the AK not so much.This is my experience. My best load in the SKS featured the Remington rnsp 180gr .311" bullet intended for the .303 British. This was in the 80's before you could buy 123gr .310" component bullets. The Chinese ammo we used back then was little better than Russian ammo today.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Retumbo]

I think most off shore commericial ammo is .311 like S&B. To be honest its the first time i heard of an SKS with a .308 barrel, but we still get the Chinese and Russian imports up here.

[Shiloh]

The advantage of cast. Adjustable diameters.

SHiloh

[GooseGestapo]

I recently discovered why my recently aquired Mosin-Nagant shot basketball groups at 100yds.
The bore mikes .3115” x .3119”, so call it a .312” bore.
I checked some Czech 148gr FMJ that miked .308” and Russian 182gr at .3095”. I pulled the bullets and substituted 150gr Hornady and 174gr Hornady .312” bullets and got golf ball sized groups. BIG difference.

After multiple cleanings and fire lapping the bore, it’s now shooting 2-2.5” groups with .314” cast bullets at over 2,000fps.

[rbuck351]

My sks would not hit a 2 foot square target every time at 50yds. Some bullets were going through sideways and some missed completely. After checking the gun carefully, I found the crown looked like it may have been cut with a spoon. I cut about 1/4" from the end and used a round head brass screw and some valve grinding compound to recrown it. I shoots 123gr .311 bullets to 3"" at 100 now. Not exactly match grade but good enough for what it is.

[Multigunner]

The Hornady .312 150 gr bullets work great in the 7.62X54R, if they can be seated to the proper COAL they should work very nicely in a AK or SKS with the properly balanced charge.

[Retumbo]

My sks would not hit a 2 foot square target every time at 50yds. Some bullets were going through sideways and some missed completely. After checking the gun carefully, I found the crown looked like it may have been cut with a spoon. I cut about 1/4" from the end and used a round head brass screw and some valve grinding compound to recrown it. I shoots 123gr .311 bullets to 3"" at 100 now. Not exactly match grade but good enough for what it is.

I bought a crowning tool. It improved on SKS while it did nothing for another.

[RU shooter]

That overly large chamber don't help any either !i can only imagine how misaligned that factory spec ctg./bullet is to the bore , I know when I only do a partial resize of the case accuracy improves greatly . Just for kicks take a couple measurements of a unfired factory rd vs a fired one .

[GhostHawk]

I pulled apart 20 rounds of Tulammo once (mexican match, used my cast and 4895)

Just out of curiousity I weighed each bullet, and each powder charge.

Bullets were not too bad, most were in a 5 grain range from low to high.

Powder was a 4 grain range light to heavy. Combine those two together, you get a light load with a heavy bullet that shoots low. Next up is a light bullet with a heavy load that shoots high. You get the picture.

I have bought no more Tulammo period.

With moderate loads of IMR 4895 and my cast bullets accuracy improved dramatically.
No more cheap factory loads for my sks. You get what you pay for.

A little bedding work in the stock does not hurt any either IMO.

[tbx-4]

not sure if this is where this goes or not, but the SKS and the AK47 are military rifles so i figured it was close enough..
So the poor accuracy of the SKS and AK is because of the ammo? Well...

I can take that cheap Wolf FMJ ammo and shoot it in my CZ 527 Carbine and group just fine. 1.5-2” at 100 yards with iron sights all day long. I installed a Skinner peep sight on the receiver which also increases sight radius compared to the factory V notch sight on the barrel. Now, one could suggest I just happen to get a better batch of ammo combined with the peep sight to get this kind of accuracy but I read the same report from those who have a 527 in 7.62x39 so it’s not an anomaly. But the Wolf soft points group in the 2-3” range with the same rifle. I can’t complain though at the low price.

So, unless you try the same ammo in a rifle capable of better accuracy you shouldn’t blame the ammo.

Oh, and no, I don’t love the SKS or AK nor do I think they are great rifles. Functional? Yes. Great? No.

[Mauser 98K]

What does the bore on your cz 527 measure? And just because one round will do good in one rifles does not mean it will do good in another. There are too many factors in play to make that judgement.

[gpidaho]

My CZ 527 7.62X39 slugs a tight .301X.312 and has good accuracy with either .313 or .314 cast bullets. Gp Edit: The owners manual for the 527 says it will not shoot .308 bullets worth beans. They were purpose built to take advantage of cheap surplus Russian ammo. None the less I refuse to run that steel cased ****** Ammo through a fine little carbine. Gp

[tbx-4]

Mauser,
My response is to your first post and premise to this thread, that is 7.62x39 Wolf ammo is one of the main contributing factors to the SKS and AKs poor accuracy.

You are blaming the ammo for the rifle’s inherent inaccuracy. Because when the same ammo is used in a rifle designed to CIP standards and built just for the cheap ammo, it performs better than the price of the ammo would suggest. So much so that it’s at least as good as factory ammo from the US. So it’s a false premise to blame the ammo.
And this isn’t just one rifle, its all CZ 527 rifles in 7.62x39 perform this good with the Wolf ammo.
Also, unless specially built or cast bullets sized to the bore and hand loaded, all SKS and AKs have poor accuracy. But they were not meant to shoot MOA or even close.

Don’t take it personally because it’s not meant to be.

[tbx-4]

gpidaho,
I understand you consternation about steel case ammo but the 527 was designed for it so that’s what I shoot. I’m working through a case of Wolf FMJ and another of soft point. My 527 is mostly for plinking and coyote hunting.

[Mauser 98K]

Mauser,
My response is to your first post and premise to this thread, that is 7.62x39 Wolf ammo is one of the main contributing factors to the SKS and AKs poor accuracy.

You are blaming the ammo for the rifle’s inherent inaccuracy. Because when the same ammo is used in a rifle designed to CIP standards and built just for the cheap ammo, it performs better than the price of the ammo would suggest. So much so that it’s at least as good as factory ammo from the US. So it’s a false premise to blame the ammo.
And this isn’t just one rifle, its all CZ 527 rifles in 7.62x39 perform this good with the Wolf ammo.
Also, unless specially built or cast bullets sized to the bore and hand loaded, all SKS and AKs have poor accuracy. But they were not meant to shoot MOA or even close.

Don’t take it personally because it’s not meant to be.

apples an oranges.. you cannot compare one rifle with another, even if chambered in the same caliber, they will always behave differently. but ask any real shooter about matching ammo to the rifle and they will tell you the exact same thing, that if the bullet is too small for the bore then accuracy will suffer. that was the entire point of the post, that most ammo bought in the US is around a .308-.309 bullet when the barrel is a .311-.312. it is a proven fact that has been documented in just about every gun publication on the planet, that a undersized bullet will be misaligned to the bore of the rifle and this will throw off the POI.. but just because one rifle shoots good with the ammo proves nothing as it might be matched to that rifle but not another. it would be like me chambering a 7mm-08 in my .308 rifle. it might do sub MOA out of a rifle chambered in 7mm-08, but accuracy would go out the window in a .308 bore. in this case the ammo is to blame. the ammo is fine, so long as it is shot out of a rifle that is fitted for that ammo. it is just like with the SKS and the AK platform and the 7.62x39, an undersized bullet will destroy accuracy. this is not debatable, as it has been proven time and again and is documented..

but it all comes down to design and function of the platform. with a few modifications and the correctly fitted ammo an sks can be accurate.
220610
little something i been playing with. making a baby marksman rifle out of an SKS. got the adjustable cheek pad made today and finished the scope rail yesterday. it is a side mount scope rail and not the stupid dust cover rails that flop when you shoot, so the POI never changes due to scope alignment. gonna use it with my home brew bullets. we will then get to see exactly how accurate an SKS can be after i get everything done.

[43PU]

Well my little Yugo shoots decent with Barnaul surplus ammo. This is 100 yards off of a rest only 4 shots that’s all I had left....220649

[Mauser 98K]

hey now. all these experts know that the sks is not capable of that.. at 50m it is a 8in pattern and at 100m 3feet across. that is why the 5.56 is kicking butt, because the 7.62x39 is so inaccurate that they would be lucky to hit the ground if they threw it. and this is always the argument by those who cannot shoot to begin with..

but not bad 43PU.

[john.k]

You see some nice AK groups on car doors and screens ,bullets sideways at 50 feet.Still,result is the same.

[roverboy]

I had a Chinese 56 SKS years ago that shot pretty decent with USA 123 gr. fmj. It shot about 3"-4" at 100 yards.

[Mauser 98K]

and another reason for poor grouping.. im working up some lead 165gr and the SKS has one deeeeeep throat, lots of free bore.. so far what i have come up with b4 the LRN even touches the rifling is this..
220760

as you can see that is gonna be one long cartridge. lots of jump b4 the bullet hits the rifling when using standard ammo. no wonder people cannot get MOA or less with the things. excessive jump b4 the bullet contacts the rifling, .308-.309 bullets in a .311 bore.. not built to be a tack driver, that much is obvious. gonna have to use all my knowledge to tame this critter to hit POA.

[roverboy]

and another reason for poor grouping.. im working up some lead 165gr and the SKS has one deeeeeep throat, lots of free bore.. so far what i have come up with b4 the LRN even touches the rifling is this..
220760

as you can see that is gonna be one long cartridge. lots of jump b4 the bullet hits the rifling when using standard ammo. no wonder people cannot get MOA or less with the things. excessive jump b4 the bullet contacts the rifling, .308-.309 bullets in a .311 bore.. not built to be a tack driver, that much is obvious. gonna have to use all my knowledge to tame this critter to hit POA.
I think if u can get fairly close to the rifling it'll shoot good. May not get moa but will still be good.

[Mauser 98K]

that is what im gonna have to do with the jacketed 130gr i load, get close.. about 3/16 is about as close as i can get with jacketed. if i was to try and seat the jacketed bullets to touch the rifling then the bullet is not in the case. with the lead i can get away with it, but then the load using unique powder im using makes it a straight-pull bolt action... all im doing is seeing if it can be made to group anyway so ill manually cycle the bolt. lose less cases that way anyway.

[Harter66]

I got an SKS down to 3×5 . It would chamber a 325-175 sized .323 for a slip fit in a fired case and the barrel was .305×316 . It was 3 moa of gallon anti freeze jugs at 25 yd with factory loads .

[Mauser 98K]

I got an SKS down to 3×5 . It would chamber a 325-175 sized .323 for a slip fit in a fired case and the barrel was .305×316 . It was 3 moa of gallon anti freeze jugs at 25 yd with factory loads .

0.316, that's a big bore.. was it heavily used? mine is practically new, the blue was not even worn off the gas piston and the rifling is still sharp and square. barrel mics to a tight .311 at 20in long.

but got my loads developed with the resized .323 LRN 165gr.
220859
resized to .312 and loaded to just touch the rifling. gonna try to dial in scope and try some groups tomorrow.

[Harter66]

Probably well used but I gave $210 for it and a sported and an Arisaka .

[Mauser 98K]

i learned a valuable lesson about the cheap 7.62x39 steel cases today, the internal dimensions vary wildly. i weighed them after my accuracy test went Tango Uniform, some of them was upwards of 1gram variation between cases. that is upwards of 15.4324 grains variation between some cases.. so ooooook.. will use the steel cases as close range blasting ammo.

[Tazman1602]

Love those little SKS'! If only I knew in 1995 what I know now I would have bought HUNDREDS of them at $75/each and been very wealthy today....

I really never had an issue with the accuracy of any of the six I've owned.....just wish I had kept one for ME.

Just for giggles and grins....the mid 90's were still pretty much the Jack Daniels days for me......a couple of buddies told me I was full of poopy if I thought an SKS at $75 would still fire after being submerged in mud......and after a 12 pack and a fifth of Jack between us four guys, I took one, filled the clip (no chambered round), tied it to the back of my truck after a rainstorm, and drug it back and forth across an 80 acre muddy field.

We then stopped, didn't even bother to untie the rope, jacked a round into the chamber and all ten fired without a jam. They were dumbfounded when the words "you guys are buying next time" came out of my mouth.

Can't be old and wise unless you've been young and stupid....

Art