Sweet's 7.62??

[Kraschenbirn]

I've been considering trying to work up a CB load for my Garand and understand that the first thing I need to do is clean the accumulated copper fouling out of the bore.

I acquired the gun in the early 80s through the old DCM program and, since then, it's fired, probably, 2500-3000 rounds of G.I. Ball and been thoroughly cleaned (G.I. Bore Cleaner or Hoppe's Bench Rest for Copper) after every trip to the range. Cleaned it using Hoppe's last night after firing 10-12 clips yesterday afternoon and, when I finished, the bore looked bright and shiney.

Then, I got a wild hair and decided to try Sweet's 7.62 just to see if it might improve anything. An hour and a half later, I was still cleaning!! First "treatment" (following the directions on the bottle) appeared to remove a lot of gunk but also left the bore looking really nasty!! Visible streaks of copper in the grooves and an overall "frosty" look to the lands. Second treatment improved the appearance considerably but (using a focused inspection light) can still see patches of copper and, while the lands look better, they don't appear as "polished" as before.

I've degunked several milsurps over the years but this is my first try using Sweet's 7.62 on a heavily fouled bore so I guess my question is: Is this something normal? And, if so, should I just keep using the Sweet's or is there something that I'm not doing that I should be?

Bill

BTW...I AM using SS bore brushes and a G.I. (parkerized steel) rod tip, so I'm not picking up copper/brass fouling from dissolving bristles.

[jonk]

Common enough yes. You can just keep at it; or switch to another cleaner. I like the foaming bore cleaners personally. last time I decoppered a bore I started with a 'clean' bore, used Outer's foaming bore cleaner for 2-3 sessions, then some JB bore paste, then another with the Outer's. The last session it came out clean.

You could also try pouring some boiling water through the gun with a funnel and hose. Hot metal will give up its filth easier.

[sundog]

The guy who set the world record 200 yard BR at Kansas City a couple years ago is a member at my club. He's really a nice guy. He uses one of the foaming bore cleaners and swears by it.

[felix]

Please ask him which one it is, Corky. I have need of some new stuff now, for Jimmy's guns. ... felix

[BCB]

Although I have never used Sweets 7.62 on military stuff, I sure have used it on a couple of Contender barrels that were "super" copper fouled! Those barrels are as rough as the proverbial corn cob and I wanted them clean when I first started to use cast boolits in them. I used a slurry of 7.62 and J&B bore cleaner and, yes, a stainless steel brush. I cleaned until I thought I wore the bore out with the brush! Nope, it wasn't so and finally, I got NO blue/green color on a clean patch when I pushed it through the bore--guess all the copper fouling was gone, gone, gone. It really took much work, but this particular Waters barrel had shoot nothing but H-355 and Hornady 120's since its beginning and that was thousands and thousands of rounds. It is now a cast boolit shooter. Good-luck with your cleaning process, but I think 7.62 and J&B will just about clean anything...BCB

[Calamity Jake]

"Wipe Out" is one of the better foaming cleaners, I use it and like it.

[sundog]

Felix, I'm pretty sure it's what Jake just mentioned - Wipe Out.

[felix]

Thanks, CJ and Corky. Something new to try, right? Gunshow, Corky? When? ... felix

[sundog]

Felix, next show in Tulsa I'll go to is in November. Not sure they'll have it there and even would be able to find it - 10 acres of stuff - , but one of the shops here in town will have. If I see one, I'll pick it up and let you know.

[dromia]

Ditto on Wipe Out, I especially like it old really dirty barrels it certainly speeds upthe cleaning process.

De-coppers really well too, never had problem shooting cast in a Wipe Out de-coppered barrel.

They also do a non foaming liquid which is just as good as the foaming version, the accelerator works good too but isn't really necessary unless you are impatient.

I find that it shifts lead too.

[PatMarlin]

Sweets is a good cleaner and indicater.

If you use a poly brush to apply it, and a patch still comes out blue... well weez ain't done yet. :mrgreen:

[Kraschenbirn]

Thanks for the inputs, guys.

Took the Garand back out to the workshop tonite and went at it again with Sweet's. Two more treatments and followed by scrubbing with G.I. Bore Cleaner to insure complete removal of any residues and the bore, literally, looks brand new! Matter of fact, it looks so "new" that I may, eventually, end up lapping it 'cause I can now see faint tool marks in the grooves. Lands are shiny and sharp but there is, definitely a bit of scoring in the grooves. Anyone else noticed similar in your Garands?

As I said in my original post, I obtained the gun...a '43 mfg Winchester with a 4-groove barrel...in the early 80s through the old DCM program. When it came to me, it was was shrink-wrapped onto a slab of heavy cardboard with a stenciled packing date of "02/66" and appeared to have been rearsenaled and freshly parkerized, immediately prior to being placed in storage. Given that, the barrel could, easily, have been replaced during the rework. (I haven't the removed the barreled action from the wood to check for date or inspection stamps that might verify replacement.)

Will have to shoot it again before, I give lapping any serious consideration, though. It's always shot G.I. Ball (or hand-loaded equivalent) better than I can hold using battle sights and I'm a firm believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Bill

[bigbear]

Just passing by and noticed the mention of stainless steel brushes,I have read many, many times to never use stainless stell bore brushes as you would wear the bore ,and that brash bore brushes are cheaper than nnew barrels. as a consequence i have stay clear of stainless steel bore brushes, it's brass or nylon brushes for my toys. My 2cents.

[PatMarlin]

My Garand is a 1943 Springfield with the original barrel. The barrel is very shiny with excellent rifling, but it took a whole lot of cleaning to remove the copper.

I'm still not convinced it's all out, and sweets is telling me the same thing. I've got a thread on here at Cast Boolits somewhere.

[PatMarlin]

Found the thread:


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=24440&highlight=sweets

[454PB]

I don't own a Garand, but I do have a Ruger 77 in .338 WM that seems to attract copper. I used the Sweet's and was not impressed. I then used JB bore compound and that removed it all.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I knew old Mr Sweet (Jim). He was a champ fullbore shooter in his day. An optometerist by trade and a bit of a do-er, he got sprung with a smal lens in both front and rear sight, gave him some magnification. He used to say, don't hold back on it boys, use plenty of it to clean up those barrels, i don't know if he was just trying to sell 7.62 or really meant it worked better if used liberally. Works for me, but being an aussie and having known the old guy, I suppose I'm a bit biased. Don't leave it overnight, its very strong.

Hoppe's benchrest is like Sweets on steroids.

[mike in co]

Just passing by and noticed the mention of stainless steel brushes,I have read many, many times to never use stainless stell bore brushes as you would wear the bore ,and that brash bore brushes are cheaper than nnew barrels. as a consequence i have stay clear of stainless steel bore brushes, it's brass or nylon brushes for my toys. My 2cents.


the issue is ss brush on a ss bbl.......galling. should not be an issue on regular steel. having said that, i stopped using ss brushes just cause.

mike in co

[corvette8n]

On rifles without a gas port I use a homemade electronic bore cleaner, worked great on the Carcano sewer pipe.
Not sure how to block the port as I have a Garand, an M1 carbine and 7.5 French I could use it on.

[jonk]

Stainless is softer than barrel steel.

Ergo I see no issue.

That said I usually use bronze but will use steel now and then for really rough jobs and copper removal. Better 5-10 passes with steel than 50 or 100 with bronze I figure.

[felix]

First patch out the grit. Clean as usual with normal brush. Soak a light oil on the spiral SS brush and do the barrel with one stroke, one way out through the muzzle. Take the spiral off. Patch the barrel with same light oil. If gooey black, re-do with spiral. If sorta black. you are done. ... felix

[Bret4207]

Up until a couple years ago when they stopped selling it with out a "prescription" ( thank you meth heads!) you could get "strong ammonia" at any super market or hardware. Regular ammonia will work after a fashion, but not like the strong stuff. It dissolves the copper as I understand it. Worked for me anyway. 15 minutes and you had a clean barrel.

[Doug Bowser]

During the 1920's, the US Army started using a tin coating on the .30-06 Match ammo used at Camp Perry. Frank Hoppe developed his famous #9 solvent to remove copper, tin and lead from fouled rifle bores. I have used Hoppe's #9 exclusively for my M1, 1903 and all other rifles. I get very good service from this cleaner. When my last M1 barrel lost it's 600 ayrd accuracy, I had over 10,000 rounds through it. The same goes for the 1903-A3 rifle barrel I had to replace.

Try Hoppe's #9 it may surprise you. Some of the bore cleaners in use today will rust a bore if it is left in the bore for an extended period of time. Hoppe's #9 will not rust anything.

Doug

[MtGun44]

"Stainless is softer than barrel steel"

YIKES! NOT necessarily true at all. First point - the term "stainless" is almost
completely meaningless. Like saying 'dirt', could be clay, sand, loam,
or any combination of the above. Too generic to mean much at all.

There are two broad categories of "stainless" steels, the 300 series
and the 400 series with very different characteristics. The 400 series
are high enough iron content to be magnetic and to heat treat about
like normal carbon steels. They can be soft or hard, depending on the
alloy and heat treatment. The 300 series has less iron and are not
attracted to magnets, and CANNOT be hardened by heat treating, but
will work harden until they are harder than the hinges of hell. Try
drilling 304 stainless with a dull drill bit and you are totally screwed
as the dull bit will work harden the surface so that nothing except
carbide will cut it. A brand new high quality drill bit will be instantly
destroyed trying to drill after this work hardening has happened.
Work hardened 300 stainless is much harder than top quality tool
steel.

Heating it up to red heat and cooling (cooling rate makes no
difference for 300 series) will anneal 300 series stainless steels.
Rapid cooling from red heat will harden 400 series stainless steels, very
slow cooling from red heat will anneal 400 series.

I HOPE that the SS brush makers use annealed 300 series, which MAY
be soft enough to minimize scratching in modern steel barrels. I
own an old Rem RB with a nearly mint bore with nice deep scratches
lengthwise that jump straight over the lands and go straight along
the bore axis, not manufacturing marks. My bet is somebody
used a stainless brush on this soft old steel barrel.

Bottom line - stainless steel hardness can be all over the map, and
so can barrel steels. No blanket statement can possibly be accurate.

Bill

[PatMarlin]

Ditto on the hoppes. It stays on my bench.

[9.3X62AL]

NO to stainless steel brushes--YES to Hoppe's. I've used Sweet's quite a bit, but NEVER leave it in place longer than about 20 minutes before patching it out and giving the bore a wash with Hoppe's on a patch. If you're patient--Hoppe's will remove copper fouling. The Wipe-Out seems to work about as well as Sweet's, but again I don't leave it in place and do a Hoppe's Wash after patching it out.

[eka]

I use Hoppe's as a check to see if I have really got the barrel as clean as I think I do. After cleaning with the strong ammonia based cleaners, I coat the barrel with the Hoppe's and put it away (as with all my guns). The Hoppe's, being a mild copper solvent, will tell me if any copper remains when I run a clean patch through in a day or two. Most of the time, I'm in no particular hurry, so I just let Hoppe's finish the job off. Every couple of days, I run a couple of clean patches through the bore and then re-coat with the Hoppe's. After a few cycles of doing this, no more green patches, ever.

When checking the bore, I cut a small square from a plastic grocery bag and put in on my jag first, then put the patch on over it. You can get false positives from residue on the jag.

Keith

[felix]

If you use a hard brush, make sure it is the spiral one and is SMOOTH on all edges, and even then use oil and not solvent. The idea is to loosen the garbage so it can be pushed out normally. ... felix

[bruce drake]

Doug Bowser,

If you used to post on the Cruffler Forum about 8 years ago it is so nice to see you made it to the site. Lots of information flows here and I'm glad you are here to add your knowledge as well.

Bruce

Back on topic. I use Hoppes along with CLP and RBC to protect my rifles. They've all work wonders in keeping my weapons clean as long as I used them properly.

[nicholst55]

Anybody tried KG-12? The test results posted on Militec's website looks very, very impressive. I haven't gotten round to trying it yet, and all my guns are in storage while I'm overseas.

IIRC, this test was conducted a few years ago - before Wipe Out was available if I'm not mistaken. I'd like to see them update this test and include some of the newer bore cleaners. KG-12 kicked Sweet's butt, I do know that!

http://www.laniganperformance.com/kg12testresults.html