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View Full Version : PP a 30-30 ?



randyrat
09-11-2008, 07:43 AM
I'm trying to paper patch a proven cast bullet and load.(WW cast- seated OAL 2.56- over 26.5 grs of 3031) Marlin 336 w/ ballard riffling... I cast the .309-170 f out of soft lead this time and sized to .308, wraped 2 wraps with cig papers just past the ogive, then sized to .309, no lube. I made a dummy round and chambered it, took a little force. I noticed it engraved the rifling almost half of the exposed bullit nose. Do i need to choose a different bullet? or seat it deeper? Or wrap only part of the bullet? I have some lighter bullet molds for the 30 cal but i would like to use a nice heavy bullet if possible.

pdawg_shooter
09-11-2008, 08:15 AM
Size your bullet to .301 and give it 2 wraps of 16# paper. Let dry, clip tail, lube and run through a .309 push through die. Works in an .308 bore.

45 2.1
09-11-2008, 08:54 AM
Your trouble is coming from sizing a soft boolit down after wrapping it. Any undue force will expand the nose if your pushing it in base first. Get yourself the proper size Lee push thru sizing die to size the boolit the first time, no matter which way you choose to patch.

9.3X62AL
09-11-2008, 04:31 PM
My only question about PP in the 30-30 WCF concerns the leade profile often found in lever rifles or other chambers of the WCF genre--their contours are like those of a concrete city curb edge, and peel back/shred paper patching pretty readily. The "Government Ballseat" in my Ruger #1 x 45-70 has similar leade characteristics, and peeled my PP's quite reliably. Undersized soft lead slugs proceeding downbore with all that nice gas pressure flowing past the boolit sidewalls bushed the barrel down to about 42 caliber in under 6 rounds. The cartwheeling boolits going downrange added to the charm of the process. NOT.

ETA---Rather than sweat the peel-back, I limit my paper-patching to rifles with gently-tapering leade angles. The leverguns and the #1 get their cast hunting boolits poured using BruceB's softpointing procedure.

pdawg_shooter
09-11-2008, 05:40 PM
I have 3 marlins in 3 cals. All shoot PP fine. My enfield #4 mk2 had a bore with severe reamer marks when I got it, after 600+ PP bullets it looks like a Douglas tube.

randyrat
09-11-2008, 09:28 PM
So the general concenses is to size smaller to begin with and put enough paper to bring it up in diameter with paper, then size it to almost grove size. I guess i never thought that pushing bottom first would fatten the nose more. It is kinda a fat nose bore riding bullet to begin with.

docone31
09-11-2008, 10:31 PM
With paper patching, I would go .301, or .304 to start with. That said, I go .308. Go figuire.
I have on hand some sized .304, wrapped with notebook paper two wraps. These unsided are .310.
Sizing to .308, with two wraps of Meade Tracing Paper, with tow wraps gives me .3135, I then size it to .311. All my .30 cals like that size with paper. I do not however have lever guns.
I recently had some undersized paper patched castings for .303 British. I added some 400 grit lapping compound to the exposed paper. Didn't seem to hurt the bore. I do not know how it will affect my larger wraps. Wrapped at the size they were I got miserable groups.
I sized to .308 for the .303, then wrapped with three wraps of Meade paper. I got .314.
The point in this is, you have versatility with paper patching. If you have a sharp transition, it will mellow out with paper patching with enough shots.
The general concensus is to cast to bore, or rather size to bore, patch to groove plus up to .002.
When I first started casting, and then paper patching, I was lucky if I hit the berm at 100yds. I am now getting 2ft to 3ft groups. I am also not done with load development. I am able to push them fairly hot with paper.
Each rifle has what works for it. My rifle, the .303, gets 2ft, or 3ft groups with commercial jacketed loads, 1" to 3" groups with cupromagnetic loads, or surplus ball ammo. So, I can at least get the grouping with paper jacketed that I can with commercial jacketed. I expect to really close the numbers with load development, breaking in the bore, and experience with paper jacketing.
I have heard of good results in a lever gun. You need to find the bore size. Without that, it is a guessing game untill you luck out. With the .30 cal, using a cigarette paper roller will make short work of patching. I use one with my .303, and it is a snap.
I measured the dry length of two, and three wraps, made a template for each. Thicker paper meeds slightly longer length.
.301-.304 for the core diameter with notebook paper.
Lee can make a push thru sizer, and, you can use your original casting to size for paper. The sizer cleans up the lube lands, and what is left helps hold the paper. It contracts down showing the lands. I am using a .312 mold to size to .308. These are push thru sizers and do not seem to deform the casting. I use the end of a drill bit to bell the throat for seating the paper patched boolitt. Slips right in. I just wobble it a tad, not much.
Enjoy the journey, it has been great for me with my rifles. I have learned a very great deal. I have not damaged anything with my experiments. The first time I fired a patched round, it was like the first reload I ever fired. It went well, except it needed dialing in.
Just make sure you can close the action on a patched round. From there it gets nit-picky.
Write down so you can remember, when it hits, you will want to repeat it.
I forgot to add, cigarette papers are nitrated. I wonder how this will affect the loading.
I would push the patched boolitt deeper so the action is easy to close.
Do not crimp.

randyrat
09-12-2008, 08:31 AM
I made some more dummy rounds and they chamber just fine, with a slight amount of force and no paper ripping. I may have had a fat bullet due to casting temp. This Marlin likes .309 cast bullets a lot and is very accurate. I was just worried about pressure with the bullet being setted so deep in the rifling, no jump. My goal is a long heavy bullet with very soft lead, higher velocty for some THUMPIN large whitetails and longer range targets. Sure i could just load some of my cast with GCs and make it easy but thats not as much fun. I'll have to work up some loads, i'll just start lower than usual.

beemer
09-12-2008, 03:26 PM
The throat of my old 336 would not let me chamber anything with a nose bigger than .300 of an inch. A 311291 Lyman was the only boolit I could load,accuracy was good sometimes. On advice from Ed Harris I got a reamer and cut a taper in the throat. I haven't got to shoot it a lot but things seem to have improved. The Lee 170 flat point will chamber properly and will do 2" or a little less with 5 shots at 100 with 12.5 gr. of 2400. Funny you should bring up PP in the 30-30. It had occured to me while reaming the throat that this would be one to try paper patch in. If I can come up with the proper combination I'll have at it.

beemer

catboat
09-13-2008, 02:35 PM
Can you size your wrapped bullet in your sizer down to ~ .310/.309/.308? This may help. I haven't done it, but perhaps modifying one of these press mounted Lee sizing dies ($<20) will help you. The modification (I'd venture to guess) would be to slightly open up (hone out) the entrance to ~ .315 +/-" so you could enter the wrapped bullet, then push it through the .~.308" Lee die.

FWIW cigarette paper is HIGHLY filled with calcium carbonate ( Ca CO3)inorganic filler). Could be up in the 25%-30% range. CaCO3 is purposely added to cigarette paper for two primary reasons: 1). it is cheaper than fiber 2), it provides a slow steady burn when used in wrapping a cigarette. It is abrasive (bore polishing vs wear).

Since cigarette paper is so highly filled with inorganic pigments, it is weaker than if it were "not filled" (inorganic fillers interfere with the fiber:fiber bonding). The relatively thin (weak) sheet may be a problem in "post wrap" sizing experiments. It MAY work. I'm just alerting you to a point that if it does fail, don't blame the process of post-wrapped sizing. Try a different style of paper and try the post-wrap sizing again. Lens paper may suit your needs (no filler, and strong fibers used).

windrider919
09-27-2008, 11:05 PM
I was not a fan of the 30-30 but my 78 year old Mom will not hunt with anything else but her bolt action, box magazine fed 30-30 which she has used since the late '50s. I had been getting exceptional results with PP in large bore rifles so decided to try small bore. There was a learning curve, too tight case necks swaged bulets underbore and gave bad accuracy. By that I mean that the PP wrapped bullet would mike .297 instead of .309 after seating in the case. Solution was to lap out an old die so the sized case necks were larger. I also found that just as in my big bore rifles when using smokeless it helped to have the bullet just over bore instead of at or under bore. IE: .302 instead of .300. Then PP to .309/310. I also found that the bullet nose had to be fairly round, the more pointed bullets just would not group. The PP has to go up the bullet nose far enough to be smaller than bore size and I got best accuracy when the rifling just touched the PP. She claims that the PP rounds kick less and since she gets great accuracy she loves it. What is amazing is the accuracy, groups are half of what jacketed were which was 3" at 100yds. She took a fine doe last year at just over 150 yards in East Texas 'Piney Woods' near Groveton on a pipeline right-of-way. One shot right through the heart, never made a step.

barrabruce
07-30-2009, 09:19 AM
Iv'e had a bash at 30-30 pp ing.
I used a 150 grain sized to about .302. By bore is .302 at the tighest point and opens up to .303
This is a comercial cast job and the nose is about .300-.301.
I then wrapped to 0.309-.3095. The nose was still small enough to allow me to seat the bullet out far enough to normal leght seating with cast projectiles.

1.6 inch groups at 100 yrds is not bad for a start.

Working on a 180 grn resized and patched.

With a cigarrette paper folded so the front of the patch is half the thickness of the doubled paper it is keeping the nose diameter down enough I can chamber them with out the base going past the case neck.
Case end about 0.3095.Nose end up to the folded paper 0.305-6

Reading the post a bout cig papers being abrasive I may have too try something else.
Haven't shot them yet but but I think it is a way around the chambering issue with my 30-30 to get a longer bullet in.
Either that or cast a bullet with a stepped down nose diameter.
Let us know how yours are getting on.

Hope it helps
Barrabruce

303Guy
07-30-2009, 02:26 PM
I have tried the double thickness paper trick. I have a few variations of the theme to try out. I have come up with a two-diameter boolit with a taper transition in the middle. The idea is to set the seating depth to neck/shoulder junction and the taper to just about engage the leade. The bore ride section can then be as long as I like to control the boolit weight. The boolit works in principal i.e. it seats in the neck, fits the throat and rides the bore. Now for range testing![smilie=1: I shall be lapping the seating section to get a diameter that seats tightly without swaging under groove during seating. That means adjusting the sizer to suite. I make my own sizers so that part is a brease.

barrabruce
07-30-2009, 11:37 PM
Sounds about what I would like to do too.
How about knocking up a split mould with a gas check/taper seat in the rear that is to the neck lenght so wrapping the ends are easy and an adjustable nose section???
Bullet weights from 110 to 200 grns.

Don't know how I'd achieve it but you could put little gooves on it too for paper holding the bullet as well.

Just need a 4 jaw and two blocks of material.
Drill out the dia of the nose and then use a "small" boring bar to relief the rest!!

have of the nose section hole make up a adjustable screw with the nose portion on it with a round nut type thing and tack it into one half with silver solder.
Ajustable and changeable.

Sounds easy don't it???
:(
While your at it knock one up for me. :)

Barra

303Guy
07-31-2009, 04:20 AM
I've been thinking just of doing just that. Mmmm.....:roll:
But just when I want to do something constructive in my spare time, I don't have any! Been working hard-out and gonna work all week-end.
I'll PM you for design details.

barrabruce
07-31-2009, 09:33 AM
Well randy rat
This is a 182 ish grn Lee rnd nose set up.
the rough looking whack'em through die gets the diameter down the .301.
I tried double wrapping with cig papers dry 2x round with a smaller patch for the chamber end....but the nose is too thick by a nats whisker.
Bugga..by wetting the front end it didn't help much and if I done the whole paper then the base worked out to be just bore size. The bullet pushed back too far into the neck for my liking.

Tried a different patch makeup...1x around nose wrap and 2.5 around the base.
Success..well at least they will chamber.
I will let you know how they shoot on sunday if I can make the range.
Shoot at least one into a bowling pin at 50 ydrs..maybe 100 if I can get them to shoot good enough.
I will try 170grn Adi 2207 starter loads minus a 1.5 grains around I think 1800 fps.
These should slap be around a bit with my light rifle off the bags. :)

I have done the same with some cut down to 150 grns but they can be seated futher in the neck so they don't pose a problem.
With some hard cast 150's they just went in to the wood about 2 " across the grain with a big wide channel and fragmented.

With the 180's acww at low speed (@1k fps) they will go into the bowling pins just over half way and the nose just sems to bend over in half.

These new loads will be interesting to try with just acww.
A hornady 150 grn will go through the pin but the plastic wrap on the pin holds whats left of it in at 100 yrds at normal loads.

BABore
07-31-2009, 10:05 AM
I made up a die for my 338 WM boolit about 4-5 years ago. I had Mnt Molds cut me a 230 gr GC boolit that had a full diameter front band that then stepped down into a BR nose. It shot ok but it turned out my seating length was a bit off. I made up a die fron a piece of 7/8-14 thread rod. I drilled and reamed it to 0.331 first. I then bored the end of the die to 0.340 dia., to the appropriate depth. With the tail stock preset at 3 degrees, I cut a taper from the end of my 0.340 diameter to the smaller 0.331 diameter. After final polishing I ended up with a 0.332 BR section and 0.3405 dia. section. I used a long nose punch the protrudes from the top of the die to pop the boolit back out with a plastic mallet. With sized, checked, and lubed boolits I insert them in the die bottom and run them up flush with the die bottom, in my Rock Chucker. End result is a nice BR section the tapers into a full diameter front band.

I'm using the same setup with my PP boolits. Sized to 0.333, then 2 wraps of 0.002 tracing paper. After drying, clipping, and lubing they go into the taper die for nose forming only. They seat to the same length as my standard lubed boolits. It would be real simple to make the same thing in 30 cal.

303Guy
07-31-2009, 02:36 PM
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-195F.jpg

I am trying the same thing as barrabruce. These fit the throat and seat snugly by hand. No range tests as yet.

My preference is a casting shaped like BABore's die.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-205F.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-209F.jpg

This one just fits the bore and seats tight in a sized neck.

barrabruce
08-02-2009, 03:52 AM
Things didn't go to well for me today at all.
Hardly hit paper with all the loads I tried. :(
The 180's with 1x wrap cig paper left a smear of lead at one stage on a portioin of the barrell. Probably not enough cig paper thickness.
Good news is I dry wrapped some 150's with cig papers and now me barell shines!!! No lead or fouling besides powder residue I could make out. No confetti just a grey smoke out the end.
The rest of my patches I had smeared a coat of Alox on them and different papers varied in the size of the confetti. Some looked like a half a shotgun wad .ishh thing.
Think they were to small for the gun.The barrell didn't like it but Hey !!Still had fun and learnt a few things.

Images.
Ist is the only bullet I recoverd from the bowling pin. Ol' lightening here with the axe (never strikes the same place twice) lost some small fragments somewhere hacking away with one and the other bullet exited closer to the neck portion.

150's bullet and wound channell in the bowling pin.
You maybe able to make out in the fuzzy pic below the others the round base of the projectile.
Estimated speed 2000 fps ish..er.

Both 180's middle and right hand side pics travelling at maybe roughly 1800 fps ..hard to tell or estimate but about it.
Didn't boot half as much of the bench as I though. :) About as flat out as I can get with this powder.
The one the right went in to the pin at tad over half way shows a definate spray of lead when it hit the cavity. and small splattery bits fell out of it too.Din't expand like the 150's but seemed to bore more into it.
Must be some forces there!!!
I don't know but I think the plastic coating may help keep the wood from splitting expanding within the pin compared to just wood and stop some effect.
Who knows????I don't...
Any way hope it helps.
The extra weight seemed to be not only penatrate more but also hadve a more splattering/vaporizing effect. All where ACWW 2 days 'old.
Pins was shot at 50 yrds. Can't see them performing much different at 100.Plus I couldn't even hit at that today :)
Got no ideas as to how bowling pins relate to pigs/dear /bone whatever. But at least its something.
Anyways hope it helps

Barra:-D