sizing down a .30 cal.... how is it done?

[elginrunner]

I've seen it commonly noted that a .30 cal projectile be sized down to .298" for wrapping. I have a lathe, and while my skills are not stellar, "they ain't bad either". I made a simple sizing die, it measures .299". I'm casting pure lead 150 grain (lee FN) for my 336. I ran a few through my Rockchucker and die, and it wasn't easy. I did in fact wipe the drive bands off, and leave a ring of lead around my pusher rod.

I know buckshot makes a sizing die, as I've seen it mentioned in more than one thread. I now suspect however that this much reduction should be done in stages, or is tapered or some such other black magic... :veryconfu

Any one care in enlighten me?

[ShooterAZ]

I have have used Dillon's lanolin/alcohol spray lube to lube 30 cal boolits before sizing them down. It's still a lot to size down. To make things easier, I bought a purpose designed PP mold from Accurate http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=30-190P-D.png. and a .301 sizer from Buckshot. Sadly, Buckshot is no longer making custom size dies. You could go in stages depending on how fat your boolits are dropping.

[CJR]

The trick to sizing down CBs, with grease grooves, is to end up with grease grooves that are uniform in width around the whole circumference. If the grease grooves end up missing on one side of the CB and wide on the other side-you have an imbalance/off-set CG (i.e. off-set center-of-gravity) problem. Meaning, when that CB is fired it will be imbalanced and inaccurate. I resize my CBs in 0.002" increments; i.e. 0.312"D to 0.310"D to 0.308"D etc., etc. This sequence of resizing tends to swage the CB down more uniformally and eliminates any existing air voids in the CB, which is good!. Since the resizing process anneals the CB, I then oven heat-treat them before PP and then do a final "gentle resizing " of the PP to slightly less than groove diameter. Occasionally, I strip off a PP or two and mike the CB diameter to make sure the CB wasn't resized smaller/annealed again when I final sized the PPCB (to slightly under groove diameter). When you're pushing 150 gr. PPCB to 3000+fps and 200,000+RPM, CB imbalance does make a big difference and opens up the groups. Bullet quality, i.e.zero CG-offset (i.e. balance), is everything in obtaining accurate jacketed bullets and accurate CBs at high velocity.

Best regards,

CJR

[longbow]

I'd be inclined to just make a push out mould like the old Ideal smooth bullet moulds. I make mine out of 1 1/2" round bar so much beefier than the old Ideal. They are easy to make and work well. Not a lot more to them than making a sizing die or two or three as required for staged sizing. I bore some in larger calibers or make D bits to ream them in smaller calibers like .30 cal. However, it turns out that an "N" reamer is perfect for standard .30 cal. So for the cost of a reamer (cheap) and a bit of cold rolled steel you can make a bunch. Depends on the style as to whether you get adjustable weight or not. I've done through reamed with an adjustable nose form/ejector and done shaped cavity with HP pin.

219354

Longbow

[bstone5]

I use the Accurate mold designed for paper patching. Made a push thru sizing die at .300 and size with a little lube from Lee. Paper patch and size to .309 after applying the same Lee lube to the patched bullet. Load with the same powder used for jacket bullets, bullets shoot fine and are accurate. M
Look at the Accurate molds designed for paper patching.

[Dan Cash]

I had a pretty much new Accurate mould that dropped .312 x 215 gr bullets when paper patching caught my fancy. I size that bullet in a .303 push through die made by Buckshot using an old Herter press. The bullets are sprayed with lanolin based case lube from Sagebrush and wrapped back to .312-.313. The shoot like champions in my .30-40 Krag Win 95. The propellant is per jacketed bullet loading for the same weight. My castings are relatively soft at 16:1 and kill like finger of God. The sizing effort is less than neck sizing the brass.

[OverMax]

Noe molds makes a tool to resize bullets smaller. Tool itself is universal for most calibers simply by changing out its push through resizing die or band.
Lee Tool makes Pass-thru Dies also.
I bought my pass-thru dies from Buckshot. {.301 .302 .303.} for my swagging 311041s down to .301 from .310 raw dropped cast. Done so to patch and shot out of my Win 94 30-30.
Trick in using Pass-thru's . One best re-size cast having a near soft lead BHN. Otherwise there's a good chance in developing a hernia swagging higher BHN cast bullets.

[303Guy]

I have sized 357 pistol boolits down to 315 in one pass. Without lube they came out smooth sided and with lube they came out with lube grooves.

[Old Coot]

Try lubing the cores with dish soap. It will wash off easily later.
Did you polish the inside of your die? That will make it go easier. What alloy are these cores cast in?
The softer the easier they will size down. You could also size the cores to say .308 or .305 as an intermediate step. Brodie

[edwin41]

+1 on the polishing that old coot mentioned , it really makes a difference !

i am currently shooting with unsized cores with good results , so i take the bullets as they come out of the mold , wrap them twice
and then run them through my lyman lubrisizer with a 50/50 beeswax -vaseline mix.
i shoot these through a husqvarna rifle in 6,5x55 mm.

if you are somewhat handy on the lathe you could easily make a sizer like mine .
pictures of this sizer is in the 6,5x55 mm thread if you are interested , these are also highly polished and size down a bullet from about 6,7 mm
to 6,55 mm in one stroke , i soak the bullets in gearoil by the way.

give the unsized core idea a try , its working for me so far !

[elginrunner]

I've made a couple sizing dies and have had some success. Sizing from .3115 to .304, and then to .3015. http://i65.tinypic.com/33jrex2.jpg

I plan on making another die down to .299" for experimentation. I used lanolin as a sizing lube. Should this be removed prior to wrapping and sizing?

[ShooterAZ]

You can remove it easily with soap & water, but I don't bother to do it. Good work on getting them sized down.

[elginrunner]

I went to the range. The results were less than spectacular. I couldn't get a entire magazine on paper at 50 yards.
http://i67.tinypic.com/2akk2tf.jpg
How does this look. I wanted to show the engagement to the rifling. The wrapped and sized bullet is .310....


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[bstone5]

Keep at it, might try seating the bullet a little deeper with less engament in the rifling.
My best results were with the bullet just touching the rifling. Paper patching takes some trial and error experimentation. I foung not to load too hot in powder weight for best results.

[CJR]

Elginrunner,

Since you've cast "pure lead" CBs, what is your velocity and estimated pressure. It makes a difference. If the pressure/velocity is too high, you may need to get them lower. Or, the other option is to use harder heat-treated lead-alloy CBs.

Likewise, if your groove diameter is 0.308"D then per the NRA's PP advice, the final sized PPCB diameter should be 0.308"OD or slightly less. Why? When your 0.310"D PPCB enters a 0.308"D groove diameter it can get stripped/cut-off and a bare CB(less PP) goes down the barrel and most likely leads the bore. Not good for accuracy.

Best regards,

CJR

[elginrunner]

I loaded and shot some more today. I seated deeper and changed powder. I used cfe223. 30 grains should have been about 1900 fps. (Unless i looked it up wrong). It chronographed at 2160. I shot three groups of five at 80 yards. They averaged about 8 inches. Much better than before. I think i will scale back another grain of powder and see what happens.


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[303Guy]

Try loading a round with a very small charge of fast powder so you capture the boolit and see what is happening. It will show whether the boolit is being impressed by the rifling and what the patch is doing. Of course, it will not represent what happens with a full power load but it gives you a starting point.

That loaded round looks good by the way. I would keep it at that engagement. What lube are you using on your patched boolit?

[elginrunner]

Try loading a round with a very small charge of fast powder so you capture the boolit and see what is happening. It will show whether the boolit is being impressed by the rifling and what the patch is doing. Of course, it will not represent what happens with a full power load but it gives you a starting point.

That loaded round looks good by the way. I would keep it at that engagement. What lube are you using on your patched boolit?

50/50 vaseline/beeswax

[robert12345]

Hummm.....
Pure lead and a paper patch.

Yur bullet is going to "slump," at velocities over about 1000 fps.

By "slump," I mean the lead will be accelerated soo fast by your powder charge, that , that bullet which exits the muzzle, will be a blob of lead, going erratically, somewhere, fast.
.
.
Paper patches work well, but you need to use an alloy which will support the desired velocity,, IE: wheelweights.
.
.
As for trying to squeeze down a bullet so it fits a patch, hum, you might actually consider to use a big ball expander in your reload die, then paper patch the standard diameter bullet to a caliber over !

............!

............!

IE: to shoot a .312, .313 or .314 paper patched bullet, down a 308 barrel....
On ignition, the oversize bullet will squeeze down in the chamber throat, and shoot normally.

It's not new science, it has been done before.
.
.
So, my suggestion is:
Cast your bullet from air cool wheel weights.
Wrap your paper patch, lube as necessary.

A big oversize ball expander in your reload die... ( Make it on your lathe... )

Load the oversize bullet deep in the ctg., case, so it fits the throat,
and, start with a reduced load, then work up.
.
It will work.

[edwin41]

My alloy is lead with a little tin in it, So is very soft.
I shoot these through a swedisch mauser
With no problems, So it can be done!
Velocities are well over 1600 ft /sec
For sure.

[Buckshot]

...........edwin41, one problem I see, and it's probably your MAJOR problem is that the nose of your slug is engraving in the leade. For a bore rider, a small bit of marking by the lands is fine, and desirable. However it is very important that the leading edge of the paper patch isn't getting rucked up when the slug hits the lands.

http://www.fototime.com/EBC4DF666082F0F/standard.jpg

This is a 420gr pure lead slug for a .43 Spanish. The leading edge of the patch is just over the turn of the ogive. The slug is swaged, hence has no lube groove to accept the leading edge of the paper, so it's patched over the ogive.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

The above 577-450's are loaded with 405gr soft cast Lee slugs. The leading edge of the patch is OVER the top drive band. The nose is short and does not touch the lands. Helpfull also is the fact that the chamber and leade are designed for PP'd ammo.

http://www.fototime.com/CD4D05814D1AB3A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/AA2B249CC368BD9/standard.jpg

LEFT: This is a 38-55 and as you can see, the lands engrave the slug AND impresses on the patch when chambered. Since the lands immediately engrave upon the paper, the leading edge isn't damaged. On the right is a closeup of another slug (a lube grooved design) patched for use in the afore mentioned .43 Spanish. As you can see, the leading edge of the patch is tucked into a lube groove. The leading edge cannot become damaged.

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpg

The above are 530gr grain soft lead HP cup based swaged slugs for use in a long range muzzle loading rifle. Since the entire boolit is in the barrel sitting on the powder charge, there is no need for any special care required for the leading edge of the patch as it's already IN the barrel :-)

A good 30 cal slug for sizing down and then paper patching is the Lyman 311284. At 210grs it might be too heavy for your purposes, but what makes it a good design for paper patching (which I've used it for before) is that it has one of the old fashioned 'So called' dirt scraper groove in front of the first drive band. Convenient place to tuck in the leading edge of the patch.

..................Buckshot

[edwin41]

Good info buckshot, but this isn 't my load.
I patch the 6,5 mm loverin style bullet and yes,
I also leave the nosesection of this boreriding design bare..

[barrabruce]

Well I reckon that you’s Are All right on the money
Ac ww for core.
I recon that his dies are to small or needs a bigger expansion ball on his die.
Especially for a marlin.
If he pulls a bullet I bet his pp is being compressed to 308-9”
The ring if upset lead from seating reveals that it is a tight squeeze into the case neck me and he could be puckering the bottom of the patch out.
Annealing the case may help too.
If you twist the tails you don’t get that but it still remains that the patch will size down

If he seats a few in unsized cases and single loads his groups should shrink dramatically.

My 2c worth.
Hey I’m still learning the basics

[Butterbean]

When sizing down cast bullets to .301, is that allowing for the bullet to obturate to slug up in the bore? I have used the Lee lead hardness measurement to get regular cast bullets to shoot good in my rifles. I'm wondering if the initial pressure shock of powder ignition is causing the bullet to swell to a diameter greater than the cast diameter and as it enters the lead and begins its travel into the lands it gets swaged back to bore diameter. So, should the bullet be cast smaller to allow for this swelling upon firing?

[Old Coot]

Edwin, If you are patching to .308" you may be shooting a bullet that is a bit too small. I like to patch to +- .002 to .003 " larger than the throat (or leade) of the barrel. When fired to bullet will size down easily, also at .298" you may be starting a little too small. The rifling must engrave (lightly) the bullet as it goes down the barrel. This is why we usually size to .301 to .302 for a thirty caliber barrel ( 3030, 308, 30/06 , 300 Win Mag, etc.). Your core may be rattling ( a funny term for one to two thousands of an inch less than the bore diameter of the barrel) down the barrel. Or, the patch may not be completely cut through by the lands. This could lead to all kinds of fun as the bullet with half a patch travels toward the target. Good Luck Brodie

[OverMax]

Cast Boolits library is full info concerning how too cure bewildering patching problems .
Just a few suggestions.
1. Slugging of barrel is recommended.
2. Powder section is paramount.
3. Near soft lead BHN is recommended. {If wanting to use clip on wheel weight or Lyman #2's BHN's} Its possible too. But plagued with problems.

[longbow]

I am certainly no expert here but have done some paper patching for .30 cal. with good results in .308 and poor then decent results in .303 British.

I made a push out mould that cast a 0.301" boolit then paper patched to just over groove diameter for my .308 and got good results right off the bat. Then I tried the same boolit wrapped with thicker paper to suit the groove diameter of my Lee Enfield but got poor results... very poor!

So I looked at differences and the most obvious is core diameter which is 0.301" and right at bore diameter of the .308 but about 0.002" to 0.003" under bore diameter of the .303. So, I kurled the core up to 0.304" then paper patched t groove diameter and found success.

Have you slugged your barrel?

I have read that the core should be at or slightly larger than bore diameter and my results concur with that! Using an undersize core did not work for me.

Another difference I noted is that the rifling in the .303 is noticeably deep than in the .308 which may also be a factor.

Something to look at anyway.

Longbow