Pulling the trigger before racking a round.

[dverna]

Over 45 years ago, I was taught to depress the trigger before racking the slide on a semi-auto. We shot 1911's, S&W M52's, High Standards, S&W M41's, etc.

Is this a safe, or recommended, practice with guns like the Glock, Springfield XD etc? How about on the Beretta 92?

Thanks

[NC_JEFF]

I can't imagine doing that as a common practice. It doesn't sound safe.
Jeff

[44MAG#1]

Why would you do something like that?

I am 65 years old and been shooting handguns since around 17 years of age and have never heard anything like that.
Who taught you to do that?

[mcdaniel.mac]

That sounds like a recipe for an unintended bang.

[fecmech]

On the 1911 that is exactly what happens every time you shoot it, the slide chambers a round with you holding the trigger back from the previous shot. The disconnector prevents the pistol from firing.

[22cf45]

I can only speak to 1911's, but in order not to batter your sear and to maintain your good and expensive trigger job, you have two choices. Hold the hammer back when you let the slide go forward or hold the trigger back. Both methods accomplish the same task. As someone else said, holding the trigger back is the same as what happens every shot you take.
Phil

[ReloaderFred]

Having witnessed first hand a 1911 and a S&W Model 59 go full auto, I wouldn't recommend it. The 1911 was in one of our Handgun Safety Classes about 6 years ago, and the Model 59 was when I was the rangemaster for our dept. back in the late 1970's. Mechanical devices sometimes fail..........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Omega]

I must not be understanding the drill. Before racking the slide, you are pulling the trigger? Or just putting tension on it?

[Preacher Jim]

Accidents happen when I pull the trigger I want my pistol aimed where the bullet can't hit anything I do not intend to shoot.
Fine tuned autos can jump a sear 45 acp 1911 can fire a primer if hammer sitting on half cock notch not in it as I said accidents do happen.

[UKShootist]

Sounds to me like bad instruction. Whenever an instructor says "Do this." it should always be followed by a "Why you do this."

[MFGordon]

When I began shooting handguns 35 years ago, A lot of Bullseye shooters, using target grade 1911 45s, would hold the trigger back before releasing the slide on a loaded magazine. The slide slamming closed on the lighter than usual trigger pull weights could sometimes cause the trigger to bounce and possibly firing the gun. I have ever seen this done on any other guns. Done on a range in the formalized and structured setting of Bullseye shooting, where range and safety rules are strictly enforced, this was not a dangerous practice.

[Char-Gar]

Never heard of that, never done that, never seen anybody else do that.

[Traffer]

I used to hold the trigger down when racking the slide on a pump action 22 rifle...it would go bang when I did that. Then I would continue to rack them as quickly as I could with the trigger down to see if I could make it go bang very fast. I know that has nothing to do with a semi-auto but I thought I would share it anyway.

[BigMagShooter]

Over 45 years ago, I was taught to depress the trigger before racking the slide on a semi-auto. We shot 1911's, S&W M52's, High Standards, S&W M41's, etc.

Is this a safe, or recommended, practice with guns like the Glock, Springfield XD etc? How about on the Beretta 92?

Thanks

no this is NOT A SAFE thing to do with a Glock, Springfield XD or a Beretta 92.

this firearms have a far different system than the 1911

[jeepyj]

I've never seen or heard of this a a common practice also I've been specifically told on a 41 Smith not to ever dryfire. It might crazy but after shooting my model 41 and prior putting away I place a spent case and pull the trigger as so not to leave tension on the trigger spring.

[bob208]

it was the drill on 1911's when they had a very lite triger. it kept the hammer from fallowing the slide forward.

[bgw45]

I have a little experience with bullseye 1911s. Every Smith doing my triggers would advise me to pull the trigger back before releasing the slide. What I was told was this practice prevents the sear from being damaged by the hammer hooks. I've been doing this with 1911s for 30 yrs.

We still need to refrain from covering anything with the muzzle, no matter what method we use to close the slide.

I don't suggest doing this with any other design firearm.

[Bazoo]

I've heard of it for target 1911s.

[dverna]

Some of you have learned something. Good job to those who knew it! It is the best way to run a tuned 1911.

I was also told, that with the trigger depressed, the disconnector will not allow the gun to go into full auto if the first round goes off as the slide rams the first round into the chamber.

The man who told me this was an accomplished Bullseye shooter who shot Clark’s. I was a kid and listened to him. But I wanted to hear what others thought of the practice.

Now....why would Glocks etc be any different? My other SD pistols are Glocks and Kahrs. I will contact the manufactures and report back.

BTW, I stopped the practice when I started using Berettas, Glocks etc as I did not know if it was a good idea. I was worried that my muscle memory would fail me when switching guns. My gut tells me it should work but I am not sure.

[Walkingwolf]

But~But~But I thought the gun was unloaded...

ETA the number one cause of negligent discharge is the booger hook on the bang switch when it should not be.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'll have to join the "never heard of it" and "that's news to me" group. But, it's interesting, and I'll give it some thought and perhaps change my ways.....

[M-Tecs]

That was taught on 1911 bulleye guns. It prevented the hammer from following down from the slide impact. Mostly used when closing the slide on an empty chamber. The hammer following down could damage the sear.

[Kawriverrat]

Mostly used when closing the slide on an empty chamber.

I find it very surprising the amount of people that have never heard of this regarding the 1911.

Especially 1911's that have a worked over trigger. However it is a simple thing to release the slide with the thumb of the right hand while grasping the slide with the left so it doesn't slam home with out the cushion of stripping a cartridge from the magazine.

[44MAG#1]

I am probably the most stupid person on here but I dont let my slide slam forward when there are no cartridges in the magazine.
If the slide is locked back I take out the magazine pull backward on the slide slightly, the slide release drops down and I hold my slide and easily let it go forward easily.
Pretty stupid right?

[RGrosz]

I've heard of it for target 1911s.

When I was shooting on a USAR Bullseye pistol team, we were told that when you got ready t shoot there was a precise way to load and fire the 1911.
1 Insert the mag into the gun
2 Rotate the non shooting hand up till the thumb was holding the hammer down
3 Use the pointer finger to move the slide release down, allowing the slide to go forward
4 move the pointer finger up to a position between the hammer and the slide
5 let up the presser with the thumb on the hammer till it's resting on the sear
6 get your good grip and prepare the shot

I've used that method to fire my 1911 since then
Rob

[kgb]

This procedure for 1911s always causes cries of horror when brought up. Once past the shock, affected individuals can read through Bill Wilson's book The Combat Auto to see where he describes the process. I don't think he addresses the use of it on target/bullseye guns but I haven't reviewed it in a while. It does look to me to violate some rule of trigger safety/discipline, and is more for the preservation of the firearm, no matter what one decides the gun should still be pointed safely when closing the slide on anything.

[JBinMN]

This procedure for 1911s always causes cries of horror when brought up. Once past the shock, affected individuals can read through Bill Wilson's book The Combat Auto to see where he describes the process. I don't think he addresses the use of it on target/bullseye guns but I haven't reviewed it in a while. It does look to me to violate some rule of trigger safety/discipline, and is more for the preservation of the firearm, no matter what one decides the gun should still be pointed safely when closing the slide on anything.

Thanks for mentioning that book!
:)

Free .PDF file of this book for anyone who would like to read it online or save to their computer for later:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/wilsoncombat/files/the-combat-auto.pdf

A quote from the book, on pages 38-39:


The proper sequence for loading
a 1911 pistol begins with
keeping the gun downrange,
cock the hammer, retract the
slide and lock it back. Then
insert a magazine.
Next, with the magazine in
and keeping the muzzle
downrange, pull the trigger back
and then drop the slide
with the slide release button.

The quote is in italics and is accompanied by pictures showing the process as well...

[dverna]

JBinMN,

Thanks for posting this information.

[Omega]

Thanks for mentioning that book!
:)

Free .PDF file of this book for anyone who would like to read it online or save to their computer for later:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/wilsoncombat/files/the-combat-auto.pdf

A quote from the book, on pages 38-39:


The proper sequence for loading
a 1911 pistol begins with
keeping the gun downrange,
cock the hammer, retract the
slide and lock it back. Then
insert a magazine.
Next, with the magazine in
and keeping the muzzle
downrange, pull the trigger back
and then drop the slide
with the slide release button.

The quote is in italics and is accompanied by pictures showing the process as well...Well now, that makes much more sense. I understood it as pulling the trigger before racking the slide back. Thanks for the link, will add it to my reading list.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Seems to me, upon reflection, that even if we're talking about bullseye tuned 1911s only a pistol which has a hammer that might follow the slide down is an unsafe pistol.

Having used the 1911 almost all my life, owning a dozen of them, and having built a number of them, I'm having a little trouble wrapping my mind around the mechanical damage aspect of this. First, other than cocking the hammer, the slide only interacts with the interrupter which prevents rearward movement of the trigger. It has a nub on the top that when the slide is closed moves up into a slot on the bottom of the slide and lets the trigger move rearward. When the gun fires the slide moves rearward and depresses the interrupter, and the little paddle on the bottom of the interrupter part then presses against and blocks the rear of the trigger bow. True, the interrupter is held in place by the same pin that also holds the sear in place, but the two parts are independent of each other on the pin and do not interact. So the slide slamming forward can not itself do damage to the sear/hammer relationship, and I think that is a legend. If the slamming forward of the slide caused the hammer to fall, we're back to my first statement.

If you are restricting the scope of the conversation to a finely tuned target gun, and are willing to live with it's questionable safety condition, then by all means follow the procedure you consider the best for safety's sake. But this procedure is absurd for a combat/duty weapon, is at least one additional step in recharging the weapon, and time = lives. I don't believe this is what John Browning had in mind when he designed the pistol. I'm sure that all present have seen, handled, fired finely turned duty/combat 1911s that are subjected to monthly qualification sessions and which suffer no ill effects from skipping the pre-trigger pull step, which in fact is not practiced at all by field professionals. Of much more importance to maintaining a good trigger pull once attained is propely hardened parts. It should also be noted that 1911s, like any mechanical devices, will wear with use, and proper periodic maintenance is important.

How could the proposed pre-trigger pull procedure possible apply to a double action/safe action? Noooooo........ don't do it.

[Walkingwolf]

Does anybody know Jeff Cooper's rules of handgun safety? One of those rules directly relates to this notion.

[35remington]

“Disconnector” is the term to use.

[str8wal]

I am probably the most stupid person on here but I dont let my slide slam forward when there are no cartridges in the magazine.
If the slide is locked back I take out the magazine pull backward on the slide slightly, the slide release drops down and I hold my slide and easily let it go forward easily.
Pretty stupid right?

I guess we both are pretty stupid then, ha ;-)

[Biggfoot44]

Yes, on 1911 pattern guns , dropping the slide puts stress on the sear . Yes on finely tuned( aka very light) triggers with shallow sear engagement , this is somthing to be concerned with . These are triggers with " zero creep, breaks like glass rod " .

For stock configuration, or most fire controls considered suitable for Duty or "street" use , will have enough engagement surface to be of much less concern .

Don't obsessive drop your slide just for entertainment, but with my guns I don't sweat over the dropping of the slide in normal use . Your Mileage, and degree of extreme caution may vary .

[Dan Cash]

When I was shooting on a USAR Bullseye pistol team, we were told that when you got ready t shoot there was a precise way to load and fire the 1911.
1 Insert the mag into the gun
2 Rotate the non shooting hand up till the thumb was holding the hammer down
3 Use the pointer finger to move the slide release down, allowing the slide to go forward
4 move the pointer finger up to a position between the hammer and the slide
5 let up the presser with the thumb on the hammer till it's resting on the sear
6 get your good grip and prepare the shot

I've used that method to fire my 1911 since then
Rob

This and other methods offered for releasing the m1911 slide while holding the hammer make me scratch my head regarding what pattern pistol was being used. The hammer is pretty well tucked up under the slide between the slide rails so holding on to it while releasing the slide seems a hazzardous and impractical. The above lteps seem to require 11 opposable thumbs to achieve.

[dverna]

This and other methods offered for releasing the m1911 slide while holding the hammer make me scratch my head regarding what pattern pistol was being used. The hammer is pretty well tucked up under the slide between the slide rails so holding on to it while releasing the slide seems a hazzardous and impractical. The above lteps seem to require 11 opposable thumbs to achieve.

The procedure as described in Wilsons book and posted by JBinMN addresses an easy way to accomplish the goal.

It seems to take care of the sear issue as well as vastly minimizing the chance of a pistol going full auto as the disconnector is engaged when the trigger is depressed.

I have sent an email to Glock and have not heard back from them.

[Char-Gar]

Seems to me, upon reflection, that even if we're talking about bullseye tuned 1911s only a pistol which has a hammer that might follow the slide down is an unsafe pistol.

Having used the 1911 almost all my life, owning a dozen of them, and having built a number of them, I'm having a little trouble wrapping my mind around the mechanical damage aspect of this. First, other than cocking the hammer, the slide only interacts with the interrupter which prevents rearward movement of the trigger. It has a nub on the top that when the slide is closed moves up into a slot on the bottom of the slide and lets the trigger move rearward. When the gun fires the slide moves rearward and depresses the interrupter, and the little paddle on the bottom of the interrupter part then presses against and blocks the rear of the trigger bow. True, the interrupter is held in place by the same pin that also holds the sear in place, but the two parts are independent of each other on the pin and do not interact. So the slide slamming forward can not itself do damage to the sear/hammer relationship, and I think that is a legend. If the slamming forward of the slide caused the hammer to fall, we're back to my first statement.

If you are restricting the scope of the conversation to a finely tuned target gun, and are willing to live with it's questionable safety condition, then by all means follow the procedure you consider the best for safety's sake. But this procedure is absurd for a combat/duty weapon, is at least one additional step in recharging the weapon, and time = lives. I don't believe this is what John Browning had in mind when he designed the pistol. I'm sure that all present have seen, handled, fired finely turned duty/combat 1911s that are subjected to monthly qualification sessions and which suffer no ill effects from skipping the pre-trigger pull step, which in fact is not practiced at all by field professionals. Of much more importance to maintaining a good trigger pull once attained is propely hardened parts. It should also be noted that 1911s, like any mechanical devices, will wear with use, and proper periodic maintenance is important.

How could the proposed pre-trigger pull procedure possible apply to a double action/safe action? Noooooo........ don't do it.

And I give a big AMEN to that!!

[RJM52]

I can only speak to 1911's, but in order not to batter your sear and to maintain your good and expensive trigger job, you have two choices. Hold the hammer back when you let the slide go forward or hold the trigger back. Both methods accomplish the same task. As someone else said, holding the trigger back is the same as what happens every shot you take.
Phil

I was told the exact same thing by two 1911 smiths...especially if you have one of those Bullseye quality 3# trigger pulls and want to keep it for as long as possible...

Bob

[Walkingwolf]

I was told the exact same thing by two 1911 smiths...especially if you have one of those Bullseye quality 3# trigger pulls and want to keep it for as long as possible...

Bob

The disconector disengages the sear whether the trigger is pulled or not. The hammer WILL catch on the sear even if the trigger is pulled, or it should, that is it's purpose. So I see it as a dangerous practice of putting the booger hook on the bang switch when not engaging a target. Your choice but I prefer to follow Mr. Cooper's safety rules they have served me well, no ND's.

[RichardB]

MY 1911 use has always been LE/Combat and defensive in nature. So any training with them is done with that in mind. Knowing that fine motor skills go almost completely to hell under stress, using the slide stop to release the slide is a poor practice. It was designed as a slide stop, not a slide release, no matter how many places like to modify them as a trick piece. The best way to release the slide is by racking it with your support hand. Under other conditions your belt, edge of cover, etc can also do the trick.

Practice for when SHTF and you won't be left bumbling or worse, lying in the gutter.

If all you do is shoot paper be my guest but someday you might not have paper to engage.

RB

[35remington]

Hmm. If the lever on the side of the 1911 was never intended as a slide release, I wonder why they bothered to checker it and make it stick out so much? If one hand is disabled, having a prominent slide release does not seem like a bad idea.

Sometimes drinking the Glock Kool-Aid and applying it to other guns makes little sense. If your gun has a flat slide stop and your finger is apt to slide off, do not use it as a slide release.

If it has a prominent slide release that sticks well out from the gun and is specifically roughened for good purchase and happens to be within reach of the support hand as the magazine is inserted, this is no more a fine motor skill than hitting the mag release button and is actually much less so. If such a gun is your regular carry piece speedier reloads are obtained with no loss of reliability.

If all your guns are Glock inspired or your mix the two types better learn the slower method.

[Bazoo]

I use the slide release on both a 1911 and a glock.

[M-Tecs]

What did I miss? Who said anything about not using the slide release?

[str8wal]

What did I miss? Who said anything about not using the slide release?

Seems like nary a 1911 thread is posted that someone doesn't offer up that little tidbit ;-)