Metroxfi
04-25-2018, 11:56 AM
I recently bought a Thompson Center Pro Hunter from Haus of Arms in Colorado and it bothered me enough to feel the need to post my experience.
I was actively looking for a 45 caliber rifle to shoot slow, heavy bullets through a suppressor and I was pretty open to many options until I came across the TC Katahdin 460sw. I already load and cast for 45 Colt and 454 Casull so the versatility really appealed to me. The 20" barrel of a stock Katahdin was also appealing, considering I have a Lane 458 Scorpion suppressor which would add a considerable length and weight to the gun. While looking at the different options for the TC's I came across Haus of arms, particularly their "Firehammer" model which is a Pro Hunter frame, 460sw Katahdin barrel cut to 16.5", fancy-shmancy thumbhole laminated stock, custom trigger job, and many other add-ons. The length of the gun with the shortened barrel seemed like a good fit for what I was looking for so I called Marty, the owner, for a quote on one minus some of the options.
I called early February and spoke with Marty, I told him what I was looking for and we discussed options. I had no need for the front sight to be relocated as I wouldn't be able to use it with a suppressor on it anyway, I also like to use my guns and I would hate to have a pretty and expensive stock on it and feel guilty when it gets beat up from laying in the dirt and bouncing in a truck. He highly recommended the trigger job stating that factory encores can potentially have horrible triggers in the 5-8lb range. The trigger job would cost $140 and I was rather hesitant to get it done because for one, I practice double action on revolvers quite often and I also shoot an old hand-me-down repro sharps with a 9lb trigger and i'm usually middle of the pack at the little competition I go to, so i'm not afraid of a stiff trigger. Secondly, if the factory triggers range that much then I may get 'a good one' and the job may not be needed. Being this would be my first TC I was relatively unfamiliar with the mechanics of them, I was worried that if the trigger was lightened it may have an affect on the reliability of the gun, like how when Ruger SRH's in 454 get lightened then have trouble smacking the rifle primer in the 454 ammo hard enough to ignite them. Marty informed me that they're separate springs and therefore would not change the reliability, but I still felt it wasn't quite necessary for my. I mean, this isn't going to be a long range precision rifle anyway. So I got the quote and scraped together some cash.
I called back on Feb 20th and spoke to Marty again to order the rifle. We went over all the options again, I basically ordered a factory katahdin 460sw with a shortened, threaded barrel with no add-ons. He , again, tried to sell me on the trigger job, I declined. When it came to what threads to cut I told him that I have the Lane 458 Scorpion with 5/8-24 threading, I told him what suppressor I have to avoid confusion. I didn't want to say "i already have a 45 can" then have a long discussion about shooting magnum cartridges (460sw) in something like a 45 auto suppressor, I felt it was better to state that it was meant for rifles and be done with it... or so I thought. Throughout the rest of the phone call he kept referring to it as a 458 Socom and that he would have to double check with his gunsmith and confirm what thread size the 458 socom uses. I told him no, it's just a 458 rifle suppressor and I was able to pick what thread size I wanted and I chose 5/8-24 but he seemed to ignore me. While I was on the phone with him I went on the computer and googled "458 Socom thread size" just to see, turns out there is no 'standard' for it, they can be 5/8-24, 11/16-24 or 3/4-24. Not wanting to have an issue in the future I told Marty this and told him to please mark it for 5/8-24 threading. Below is a snapshot of the order that HE wrote up after being told a dozen times what thread size I wanted. This should have been a red flag, d*mn my faith in people.
219234
I was told verbally by Marty that with the custom work it may take approximately four weeks to get, which was fine because the weather wouldn't be nice enough for a while to go shoot it anyway. Well, I called on April 3rd (six weeks to the day) to check on it and I was told that my order was complete and waiting to be shipped. Apparently it was never shipped because they didn't have the FFL info that they needed because "you (I, myself) never responded to the first email we sent you asking for the shipping info". I was very confused by this because the first (and only) email I received from them was the order/payment confirmation that mentioned nothing about the FFL info, Marty never asked for it or even mentioned it when we spoke. I was also a bit irritated because I was being accused of not responding to an email that I never got, and therefore my new gun was sitting in a box just waiting on some information... even though they have my cell phone number, home phone number, home address, and email address. You know what, spit happens. I get it, ok now move on right? well... Ten minutes later I get a call back saying that they made a mistake, the fame and stock set was there but they were waiting on the barrel from the gunsmith but they messaged their gunsmith and it would be done by the end of the week. Fantastic, squeaky wheel gets the grease right? I said "well, since it's not cut yet can I verify the thread size?" because I was still nervous about the whole socom thing.
I was transferred over to Marty who informed me that they were going to have to confirm what threads a 458 Socom takes, I told him as politely as I could at that time "It's actually a 458 RIFLE suppressor, not necessarily SOCOM, i'm not sure where you got 'socom' from" then he responded "well, when we first spoke you weren't sure what thread size you wanted." Right then my patience ran out. I reminded him of the dozen times I told him 5/8-24 over the phone and how I've had the suppressor in my possession and mounted on other firearms for months with 5/8-24 threading, I KNOW what thread size it is and to PLEASE change the order to reflect that.
A week later I got a shipping confirmation email. The day it was to be delivered I brought my suppressor into town along with a 5/8-24 flash hider to use as a thread protector. When I went to pick up the rifle, as we were doing paperwork, I screwed (well, tried to) the flash hider on the barrel. It went about 2/3rds the way and locked tight... hmm. When I got it to the car I tried my suppressor, same thing, 2/3rds and no further. There was also no relief on the back end of the threads so even if I could get past that tight spot it would never 'butt-up' against the shoulder on the barrel and be true and tight. Well ****, whatever. Out of curiosity I tried to drop a 45 Colt in the chamber, it plunked right in! But it was past the extractor... hmm.. I closed the action and opened it to find the extractor skipped past the case.. I tried again.. and again...no go. Luckily I wasn't planning on firing it at that time so I just tipped it up and let the case fall out. I got it home and tried a 460sw case, because the specs are a touch different and the 460sw rim is a whopping .004" wider than a colt, but the same thing happened. With the action open and extractor fully extended you can grab the extractor and rotate it 15-20 degrees of center both ways, is that normal? Again, this is my first TC so it may be normal. I called Marty and told him "i just got back from the FFL and picked it up and I gotta say, I'm not happy." I explained the thread and extractor issues, his solution was to have ME call TC and possibly send it in to have the extractor fixed/replaced and he gave me the number of his gunsmith so that I could call him about the thread issue and "work it out with him"... uhh, ok consider the buck passed.
I called the gunsmith and left a message, still have yet to hear from him but I abandoned that solution. Later that night I hammered a .457" ball into the end of the barrel to get some measurements and I was surprised/confused/aggravated with what I saw. See the picture below .
219235
Yup. Copper fouling on a "brand new" barrel. That's not the worst part! The worst part happened when I shined a flashlight down the end of the barrel and saw this:
219236
It was really hard to get a picture of it but about 3-4" in there is a ring. I ran a zip-tie in and I could feel it snag hard as I past over it. It's a full ring. On the lands and the bore. A full ring.
I called Marty in the morning and asked him if he was at his computer and I emailed him those two pictures. I said "see that first one? That's copper fouling." his response was a smart a$$ "Yeah, and what does that mean?" I said "oh, well, that means that this 'brand new' barrel you sold me is NOT brand new." He called BS and blamed it on being test fired at the factory, whatever dude. The I pointed out the ring, he didn't really have a response but he did ask if I got ahold of his gunsmith. I told him that I left a message but even if we got the threads fixed, and the extractor fixed I do NOT feel safe shooting the gun with that ring in the barrel and as far as I'm concerned this barrel is *****. You know what he said? "all the issues you're having with this barrel are completely out of my control." He didn't want to do anything other than pass me off on someone else. I understand that dealers can only do so much and a lot of the work does revert to the factory but come on man. Did you not look down the barrel? did you not screw anything onto the threads once they were cut? Hell I do that every time I use a 1/4-20 tap, I tap the hole and use a spare 1/4-20 bolt and spin it in before I move to the next hole. Was there a visual inspection of the rifle AT ALL before it was shipped?
The whole "YOU need to deal with MY gunsmith" thing is so irritating. If you as a company sub-contract someone to do work for you then YOU are responsible for the work they do, just as any other employee of yours. I work with mobility and medical equipment, I can't sell someone a brand new power wheelchair and when they call the next week because something doesn't work tell them "oh, YOU will have to call Permobil and work it out." NO! that's not how it works and it's a spitty way of doing business. I understand TC has warranties and all that but I can't expect them to honor the warranty on #1: a barrel with custom work, #2: a barrel as mucked up as this one was. I actually did call TC to get an outside opinion, when I asked if there was any reason there would be copper fouling in a brand new barrel I was given a firm "no, absolutely not". When questioned about the ring the said they have experienced issues with powder and other fouling collecting in one spot in the barrel and being 'ironed' into the barrel with each shot, that was their best guess without seeing it. My dad said it looks like the sharp edge of a pilot/bushing when it was put on the lathe. He also said that he's 100% sure the threads we cut using a die, also fantastic.
All-in-all I'm thoroughly unimpressed with Haus of Arms. The customer service is lacking, the custom work they pride themselves on is also lacking. In my first two calls to them we talked more about me not wanting the trigger job than we did about what I actually wanted in the rifle if that says anything. I didn't even give them the option of making it right, I asked for a refund of the barrel and custom work and I shipped the barrel back on my own dime. I kept the frame and stock set. Funny thing too, since I couldn't got out and shoot it I decided to do a trigger job on it myself. I found Bellm's instructions online very easily and even with me being completely unfamiliar with TC's I was able to use some nice, new, high quality stones to polish the trigger, sear, and hammer engagements all within an hour. Even with the stock springs I now have a 3-4lb trigger on it with no creep and no need to spend $140 on something that would have probably been screwed up too.
Sorry for writing a book. I just needed to let people know what my experience entailed. I'm not going to say don't do business with them, just be aware. First gun I ever bought online/ sight unseen. Don't know how much more of that I'll do.
Ha, and to think I passed up doing a Mauser 45acp build with one of the Rhineland kits because I figured it would be "too much headache".
I was actively looking for a 45 caliber rifle to shoot slow, heavy bullets through a suppressor and I was pretty open to many options until I came across the TC Katahdin 460sw. I already load and cast for 45 Colt and 454 Casull so the versatility really appealed to me. The 20" barrel of a stock Katahdin was also appealing, considering I have a Lane 458 Scorpion suppressor which would add a considerable length and weight to the gun. While looking at the different options for the TC's I came across Haus of arms, particularly their "Firehammer" model which is a Pro Hunter frame, 460sw Katahdin barrel cut to 16.5", fancy-shmancy thumbhole laminated stock, custom trigger job, and many other add-ons. The length of the gun with the shortened barrel seemed like a good fit for what I was looking for so I called Marty, the owner, for a quote on one minus some of the options.
I called early February and spoke with Marty, I told him what I was looking for and we discussed options. I had no need for the front sight to be relocated as I wouldn't be able to use it with a suppressor on it anyway, I also like to use my guns and I would hate to have a pretty and expensive stock on it and feel guilty when it gets beat up from laying in the dirt and bouncing in a truck. He highly recommended the trigger job stating that factory encores can potentially have horrible triggers in the 5-8lb range. The trigger job would cost $140 and I was rather hesitant to get it done because for one, I practice double action on revolvers quite often and I also shoot an old hand-me-down repro sharps with a 9lb trigger and i'm usually middle of the pack at the little competition I go to, so i'm not afraid of a stiff trigger. Secondly, if the factory triggers range that much then I may get 'a good one' and the job may not be needed. Being this would be my first TC I was relatively unfamiliar with the mechanics of them, I was worried that if the trigger was lightened it may have an affect on the reliability of the gun, like how when Ruger SRH's in 454 get lightened then have trouble smacking the rifle primer in the 454 ammo hard enough to ignite them. Marty informed me that they're separate springs and therefore would not change the reliability, but I still felt it wasn't quite necessary for my. I mean, this isn't going to be a long range precision rifle anyway. So I got the quote and scraped together some cash.
I called back on Feb 20th and spoke to Marty again to order the rifle. We went over all the options again, I basically ordered a factory katahdin 460sw with a shortened, threaded barrel with no add-ons. He , again, tried to sell me on the trigger job, I declined. When it came to what threads to cut I told him that I have the Lane 458 Scorpion with 5/8-24 threading, I told him what suppressor I have to avoid confusion. I didn't want to say "i already have a 45 can" then have a long discussion about shooting magnum cartridges (460sw) in something like a 45 auto suppressor, I felt it was better to state that it was meant for rifles and be done with it... or so I thought. Throughout the rest of the phone call he kept referring to it as a 458 Socom and that he would have to double check with his gunsmith and confirm what thread size the 458 socom uses. I told him no, it's just a 458 rifle suppressor and I was able to pick what thread size I wanted and I chose 5/8-24 but he seemed to ignore me. While I was on the phone with him I went on the computer and googled "458 Socom thread size" just to see, turns out there is no 'standard' for it, they can be 5/8-24, 11/16-24 or 3/4-24. Not wanting to have an issue in the future I told Marty this and told him to please mark it for 5/8-24 threading. Below is a snapshot of the order that HE wrote up after being told a dozen times what thread size I wanted. This should have been a red flag, d*mn my faith in people.
219234
I was told verbally by Marty that with the custom work it may take approximately four weeks to get, which was fine because the weather wouldn't be nice enough for a while to go shoot it anyway. Well, I called on April 3rd (six weeks to the day) to check on it and I was told that my order was complete and waiting to be shipped. Apparently it was never shipped because they didn't have the FFL info that they needed because "you (I, myself) never responded to the first email we sent you asking for the shipping info". I was very confused by this because the first (and only) email I received from them was the order/payment confirmation that mentioned nothing about the FFL info, Marty never asked for it or even mentioned it when we spoke. I was also a bit irritated because I was being accused of not responding to an email that I never got, and therefore my new gun was sitting in a box just waiting on some information... even though they have my cell phone number, home phone number, home address, and email address. You know what, spit happens. I get it, ok now move on right? well... Ten minutes later I get a call back saying that they made a mistake, the fame and stock set was there but they were waiting on the barrel from the gunsmith but they messaged their gunsmith and it would be done by the end of the week. Fantastic, squeaky wheel gets the grease right? I said "well, since it's not cut yet can I verify the thread size?" because I was still nervous about the whole socom thing.
I was transferred over to Marty who informed me that they were going to have to confirm what threads a 458 Socom takes, I told him as politely as I could at that time "It's actually a 458 RIFLE suppressor, not necessarily SOCOM, i'm not sure where you got 'socom' from" then he responded "well, when we first spoke you weren't sure what thread size you wanted." Right then my patience ran out. I reminded him of the dozen times I told him 5/8-24 over the phone and how I've had the suppressor in my possession and mounted on other firearms for months with 5/8-24 threading, I KNOW what thread size it is and to PLEASE change the order to reflect that.
A week later I got a shipping confirmation email. The day it was to be delivered I brought my suppressor into town along with a 5/8-24 flash hider to use as a thread protector. When I went to pick up the rifle, as we were doing paperwork, I screwed (well, tried to) the flash hider on the barrel. It went about 2/3rds the way and locked tight... hmm. When I got it to the car I tried my suppressor, same thing, 2/3rds and no further. There was also no relief on the back end of the threads so even if I could get past that tight spot it would never 'butt-up' against the shoulder on the barrel and be true and tight. Well ****, whatever. Out of curiosity I tried to drop a 45 Colt in the chamber, it plunked right in! But it was past the extractor... hmm.. I closed the action and opened it to find the extractor skipped past the case.. I tried again.. and again...no go. Luckily I wasn't planning on firing it at that time so I just tipped it up and let the case fall out. I got it home and tried a 460sw case, because the specs are a touch different and the 460sw rim is a whopping .004" wider than a colt, but the same thing happened. With the action open and extractor fully extended you can grab the extractor and rotate it 15-20 degrees of center both ways, is that normal? Again, this is my first TC so it may be normal. I called Marty and told him "i just got back from the FFL and picked it up and I gotta say, I'm not happy." I explained the thread and extractor issues, his solution was to have ME call TC and possibly send it in to have the extractor fixed/replaced and he gave me the number of his gunsmith so that I could call him about the thread issue and "work it out with him"... uhh, ok consider the buck passed.
I called the gunsmith and left a message, still have yet to hear from him but I abandoned that solution. Later that night I hammered a .457" ball into the end of the barrel to get some measurements and I was surprised/confused/aggravated with what I saw. See the picture below .
219235
Yup. Copper fouling on a "brand new" barrel. That's not the worst part! The worst part happened when I shined a flashlight down the end of the barrel and saw this:
219236
It was really hard to get a picture of it but about 3-4" in there is a ring. I ran a zip-tie in and I could feel it snag hard as I past over it. It's a full ring. On the lands and the bore. A full ring.
I called Marty in the morning and asked him if he was at his computer and I emailed him those two pictures. I said "see that first one? That's copper fouling." his response was a smart a$$ "Yeah, and what does that mean?" I said "oh, well, that means that this 'brand new' barrel you sold me is NOT brand new." He called BS and blamed it on being test fired at the factory, whatever dude. The I pointed out the ring, he didn't really have a response but he did ask if I got ahold of his gunsmith. I told him that I left a message but even if we got the threads fixed, and the extractor fixed I do NOT feel safe shooting the gun with that ring in the barrel and as far as I'm concerned this barrel is *****. You know what he said? "all the issues you're having with this barrel are completely out of my control." He didn't want to do anything other than pass me off on someone else. I understand that dealers can only do so much and a lot of the work does revert to the factory but come on man. Did you not look down the barrel? did you not screw anything onto the threads once they were cut? Hell I do that every time I use a 1/4-20 tap, I tap the hole and use a spare 1/4-20 bolt and spin it in before I move to the next hole. Was there a visual inspection of the rifle AT ALL before it was shipped?
The whole "YOU need to deal with MY gunsmith" thing is so irritating. If you as a company sub-contract someone to do work for you then YOU are responsible for the work they do, just as any other employee of yours. I work with mobility and medical equipment, I can't sell someone a brand new power wheelchair and when they call the next week because something doesn't work tell them "oh, YOU will have to call Permobil and work it out." NO! that's not how it works and it's a spitty way of doing business. I understand TC has warranties and all that but I can't expect them to honor the warranty on #1: a barrel with custom work, #2: a barrel as mucked up as this one was. I actually did call TC to get an outside opinion, when I asked if there was any reason there would be copper fouling in a brand new barrel I was given a firm "no, absolutely not". When questioned about the ring the said they have experienced issues with powder and other fouling collecting in one spot in the barrel and being 'ironed' into the barrel with each shot, that was their best guess without seeing it. My dad said it looks like the sharp edge of a pilot/bushing when it was put on the lathe. He also said that he's 100% sure the threads we cut using a die, also fantastic.
All-in-all I'm thoroughly unimpressed with Haus of Arms. The customer service is lacking, the custom work they pride themselves on is also lacking. In my first two calls to them we talked more about me not wanting the trigger job than we did about what I actually wanted in the rifle if that says anything. I didn't even give them the option of making it right, I asked for a refund of the barrel and custom work and I shipped the barrel back on my own dime. I kept the frame and stock set. Funny thing too, since I couldn't got out and shoot it I decided to do a trigger job on it myself. I found Bellm's instructions online very easily and even with me being completely unfamiliar with TC's I was able to use some nice, new, high quality stones to polish the trigger, sear, and hammer engagements all within an hour. Even with the stock springs I now have a 3-4lb trigger on it with no creep and no need to spend $140 on something that would have probably been screwed up too.
Sorry for writing a book. I just needed to let people know what my experience entailed. I'm not going to say don't do business with them, just be aware. First gun I ever bought online/ sight unseen. Don't know how much more of that I'll do.
Ha, and to think I passed up doing a Mauser 45acp build with one of the Rhineland kits because I figured it would be "too much headache".