38 spl "FBI load"

[Gunslinger1911]

Doing some research on the old FBI load. My daughter wants to carry my dads old Detective Special. Gotta love tradition !
Found a long thread from a couple years ago. 150 ish grain swc hp at 900 ish f/s out of a 2" bbl.
This was a swaged bullet - so soft.
My question, any ideas on how soft ?

Thanks in advance

[Bookworm]

Swaged boolits are usually very soft lead; either pure, or with a bit of antimony to help it flow.

So, 6-8 Bhn I would suggest. As soft as you can go, and still avoid leading.

[SyberShooter]

I would check that 900fps barrel length again... that sounds pretty hot for a 2"

Federal Classic +P 158 LSWC.HP clocks 778fps out of my SW638 17/8" and 883 fps from a 4" M19. It hits 913fps from a 6" M686.

I've been able to duplicate that with AA-5 and a cast LSWC.HP but I use wheel weights instead of swaged to avoid leading.

[Gunslinger1911]

It was known as a pretty hot load.
So far research says that was the goal, whether or not that's achievable........
Sure wouldn't want to run a steady diet through a 60 year old Detective Special.
I'm thinking lead, maybe just a touch antimony.
Possibly pure lead, plain base gas check, and powder coat to prevent leading. (pink, because, daughter - duh!).
This could be fun.

[FergusonTO35]

For the old Detective Special I would just stoke it with wadcutters and call it good. Easy to shoot and penetrates well. Taurus is bringing the 856 back. Looks like it might be a cheap DS substitute that can easily handle +P.

[tazman]

900fps with a 150rain boolit from a 2" revolver, while not impossible, is getting to the upper reaches of +P. Most loads are showing around 800fps or slightly less. Much depends on the particular revolver and how tight it is.
Since you are using an older weapon, I would suggest pretty much what FergusonT035 did and use wadcutters or almost any 150-158 grain boolit.
I wouldn't worry overmuch about a hollow point. Getting boolits to expand reliably at 800fps or slower can be problematic. Go for accuracy and penetration. Learn how to put the boolits where they need to go.

[fecmech]

In Marshall and Sanow's book"Handgun Stopping Power" they list the ballistics for +P 158's out of 2" barrels. All three manufacturers (WW,Fed,Rem)+P 158's clocked 780-790 fps in snubbys. Those same loads in 4" guns run 900 fps. I don't believe you can get 900 fps in a 2" bbl and stay in SAMMI +P specs. My chrono results in my Model 36 S&W mirrored those results.

[Gunslinger1911]

Good info guys. I mis-read. Looks like 900 in a 4" is the criteria. You get what you get out of shorter.
Have to fire up the pot of pure and see where we get.

[Outpost75]

X38SPD Winchester factory load chronographs 880-890 fps from 3" barrel S&W Model 13 with 0.006" cylinder gap. You can duplicate load with Speer 158 SWCHP component bullet and 4.2 grains of Bullseye 5.2 of Unique, or 5 grs. of AutoComp.

[scattershot]

Hottest load I ever saw for a .38 Special was in Speer #8, and involved 4756 powder. It was known as “the load”, and you could probably Google it.

[Tatume]

I've been carrying the 158 grain 38 Special FBI load for many years. It consists of a Federal SWC-HP Nyclad bullet loaded +P, and is quite a handful in a snub-nosed revolver. The bullet appears to be pure lead, and is enclosed in nylon to reduce airborne lead in indoor ranges.

This ammunition is discontinued and hard to come by. I doubt if a pure lead bullet without the nylon jacket can be pushed this fast without severe leading.

[lazs]

This is so far off subject I hesitate to bring it up but.... back in the day upside down full wad cutters were tried.. this (for me) was a failure with the hollow base either plugging up (making a solid) or folding over which made for erratic performance or... shattering. Recently because of HT coatings.. I boiled some hornady HBWC bullets and coated em with three coats of HT... I loaded em upside down at around 1,000 fps (from a 6" gun) and into dry magazines. I was impressed.. they all expanded perfectly and the HT seemed to hold em together. I recently seen a defense load that is similar to this with what looks all the world like an upside down 38 full wad cutter bullet that has been coated.

The detective special like all Colts is a strong gun. Much stronger than a J frame in my opinion. I am thinking the load I made using fast (231) powder would be at least 850 fps?

lazs

[Outpost75]

Colt Detective Special prior to 1972 IS NOT +P rated.

Authoritative source info:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2006/05/can-my-colt-use-p-ammunition/

Colt says:

Post-1972 (shrouded ejector rod) models: The owner’s manual says that these guns are rated for +P ammunition. The manual calls for a factory (gunsmith) inspection every 1,000 rounds for the alloy models (Cobra and Agent), and every 3,000 rounds for the steel-framed guns (Detective Special, Police Positive Special, Diamondback.)

Pre-1972 (unshrouded ejector rod) models: None of the Colt guns with unshrouded ejector rods are rated by Colt for +P use. These guns, made prior to 1972, were sold before the advent of +P ammunition.

However, there are some other things to consider before you load your gun with that hot ammo!

What happens?

+P ammunition is loaded to higher pressures than standard .38 Special ammunition. This results in increased muzzle velocity and recoil.

When this ammunition is fired, it puts increased stress on the chambers and cylinder, and the frame is subjected to more force than normal. Colt “D” frame cylinders are certainly up to the task of containing the pressure, but the frames and action parts really take a beating.

This means that the ratchet (ejector) and hand experience increased wear, shortening their life and requiring more frequent replacement.

For the alloy frames, not only do the action parts wear but the frame itself will stretch slightly. After a number of rounds, the frame may be so deformed as to result in headspacing problems. While the steel frames don’t generally stretch so much, the alloy frames will require replacement after a diet of +P.

This increased wear is the reason for the re-inspection intervals given in the owner’s manual. To put it another way, your gun probably won’t suffer catastrophic failure from the use of +P ammunition (it’s SAFE to use), but wear will be greatly increased (it may not be very SMART to use.)

Should you use it?

First, if you plan to use +P ammunition in any Colt, it is imperative that the gun is within factory specifications in every respect. If there is any deficiency, the increased wear patterns from +P use can render the gun unusable or even unsafe in short order.

Regardless of the model, you will experience increased wear if you use +P ammunition. Colt revolvers are not cheap to work on, and some parts are becoming quite scarce, so use should probably be restricted.

What do I recommend?

(What follows is based on my experience shooting, repairing and customizing Colt revolvers. Nothing written here is intended to be predictive, but is simply a recap of what I’ve observed. Use what follows at your own risk and expense.)

For steel-frame models, I’d limit +P use to a few hundred rounds a year, and observe the 3,000 round inspection interval. I’ve found that, if the maintenance is done properly, this will result in many years of shooting service.

Regarding the alloy models, frame stretch is a major concern. In addition, the alloy frames will suffer more wear in the action than the steel guns because their lessened mass results in a higher recoil pulse.

Since the alloy guns are so scarce, and replacing a stretched frame is essentially impossible these days, I recommend that you shoot very few +P rounds in them. If you plan to carry it, you can certainly shoot two or three cylinders full just to acquaint yourself with the increased recoil – then practice with regular pressure loads. Absolutely observe the 1,000 round inspection schedule, and make certain that the gun is in perfect condition beforehand.

What about the older models?

In general, I wouldn’t. Any of the pre-72 guns are now so collectible that it just doesn’t make sense to subject them to the pounding that +P ammo will give them.


But, should you insist…if the gun is a steel model made in the mid-50’s to late 60’s, it is probably strong enough that it won’t suffer catastrophic failure with +P loads. However, in my experience the pre-72 models have slightly softer metallurgy, which results in increased frame wear. Thus, it’s not a question of “will the gun handle it,” it’s more a question of how much expensive maintenance it will require!

If it’s earlier than that period, or any pre-72 alloy frame model, “just say no.”

The bottom line

You don’t have to be afraid of +P ammunition, just understand that each +P round you put through your Colt will result in more wear than a standard pressure load. It is up to you to maintain the gun appropriately.

Related, article because "The internet “experts” just can’t let this one go!"

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2007/09/more-on-the-use-of-p-in-older-colt-revolvers/

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, this is a topic I can speak to with a little authority but I'll bow to Outpost75 as the ultimate expert.

The "FBI Load", AKA "Chicago Load", "Dallas Load", "Treasury Load", etc. has been with us for about roughly 45 years. It consists of a soft lead, hollowpoint SWC driven at +P velocity. The size of the hollowpoint cavity and the lead alloy vary a bit but that's the basic formula.

The load seems a bit "low tech" to the younger crowd but it has a fantastically long track record of good performance. One of the excellent traits of the FBI load is that it is one of the few loads that works well in 4" barreled revolvers AND short barreled revolvers. Even when it fails to expand, it STILL performs well. In engineering terms, it fails gracefully.

I agree with fecmech that getting 900 fps or more from a 158 grain bullet in a 2" barrel is not going to happen unless you exceed SAAMI specs for +P pressures. But I also see that the OP corrected himself and he was referring to velocities fro 4" barrels. I agree that when fired from snubnose, "you get what you get" in terms of velocity.

Of the factory "FBI Loads" the Remington R38S12 (now known as the RTP38S12 or High Terminal Performance load) was always considered to have the softest bullet alloy. I can't recall what the BHn of the Remington bullet is but my best guess is that it is somewhere around 7 BHn.

As for the backwards loaded HBWC - I tested that years ago and like lazs - I was very UNIMPRESSED. In fact, that may be one of the greatest urban myths on the firearm's related internet forums. When I could get those to expand, the skirt would either fold back on itself or completely separate. When it separated, the loss of mass significantly hindered its ability to penetrate. Those results only occurred when I could hit the target ! The reversed HBWC proved to be woefully inaccurate at any kind of range beyond a few yards. Having actually tested the reversed HBWC, I would never recommend it for SD. Nuff said there.

As for the Federal Nyclad load that Tatume speaks of, the bullet used in the Nyclad loads was very soft, maybe even pure lead. The coating allowed that soft lead projectile to work without severe leading. The Nyclad loads went through a few iterations with different bullet and hollowpoint profiles but they were all very soft. NYPD issued the Nyclad for a while but got away from them when the Speer Gold Dot 135 grain "Short Barrel" load was adopted.

As for the OP's Detective Special project - I concur that some form of the "FBI Load" would be an excellent choice.
My first choice would be a solid SWC of around 158 grains loaded to standard pressure for a PRACTICE load and the Remington factory RTP38S12 load for carry. That would just be the simplest setup and wouldn't require that you re-invent the wheel when trying to find the right alloy/HP configuration. I also would not shoot a lot of +P loads in the Detective Special, not because it's weak but just because there's no need to stress the gun in practice.

If you want to roll you own FBI Load, I would follow Outpost75's advice. When seeking the right alloy/HP balance and configuration, I would err on the side of softer lead and smaller hollowpoint cavity. At snubnose velocities the bullet must reliably penetrate and expansion is just the icing on the cake. I would rather depend on a soft alloy instead of a big hollowpoint in order to achieve that expansion. When fired from a short barrel, you do not want the expansion of the 158 grain slug to limit the penetration too early in the process.

Good Luck

[Petrol & Powder]

I'll second everything Outpost75 wrote above and add a bit.

I've owned many snubnose DA revolvers over the years and I have a lot of experience with them.
The snubnose Colts such as the Detective Special, Agent and Cobra were good guns but as Outpost points out, they are getting into the collector's world more and more every day. I wouldn't want to abuse a fine example.
I still have my 3rd generation Detective Special:
218857

That is not a gun that I would want to fire a large number of +P loads through. It can handle them but there's no need to wear it prematurely.

When I had my Colt Agent's and Cobra's, I didn't shoot +P ammo in those alloy framed guns.

[9.3X62AL]

I would check that 900fps barrel length again... that sounds pretty hot for a 2"

Federal Classic +P 158 LSWC.HP clocks 778fps out of my SW638 17/8" and 883 fps from a 4" M19. It hits 913fps from a 6" M686.

I've been able to duplicate that with AA-5 and a cast LSWC.HP but I use wheel weights instead of swaged to avoid leading.

I have had very similar results from my chronography of the W-W, R-P, and F-C versions of this load. I believe this load to be the single-best 38 Special loading carried in harm's way, and it would be my choice in this venue. Have a look at the Alliant shotgun powder data for 38 Special +P to get guidance on charge weights. I greatly respect the lady's choice of Detective Special for defensive carry. I truly think it is the best example of snub-nose 38 Special ever produced in this country. The post-1969/3rd Series examples with the shrouded ejector rod are +P rated; the older examples should have limited exposure to +P loadings--i.e., enough firing to familiarize the user with the recoil and bark, then practice with standard-pressure 158 grain ammo. There is not much difference in recoil or shot distribution downrange between the 2 loadings, but it is noticeable in a smaller platform and I like to prevent surprises with the folks I help.

[Outpost75]

...I still have my 3rd generation Detective Special:
218857...

Yours looks like a clone of mine which was tweaked by Sandy Garrett at NoVA Gun Works.

Maybe we should "breed" them 8-)

[9.3X62AL]

By all means--PLEASE breed them! :-)

[Hickory]

Whether 800fps or 900fps, it will take the starch out of a bad guy.

[Livin_cincy]

Do you reload ?

https://www.speer-ammo.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/Handgun/38_caliber_357-358_dia/38_Special_158_L.pdf

[Gunslinger1911]

Just WOW ! The knowledge base of this group is amazing ! Thanks to all for the input.
It's a mid 70's shrouded ejector. Excellent shape. Was my fathers till he died.
My daughter "permanently" borrowed it. lol She isn't a fan of the 9mm mini XD her husband and I bought her.
And it was "Papaw's" !
Cast some dead soft 150 swc hp's. PC'ing with Smoke's pink (just 'cause - daughter).
Probably lube anyway when I size - again, dead soft.
Lots of practice with "normal" pressure, couple cylinders hot each range session.

Again, thank you all for the input - keep it coming !

[9.3X62AL]

None of my currently-owned 38 Specials are built for use of +P ammunition, so I got out of loading the stuff when my last capable example went down the road 10+ years ago. The small amount of +P 38 ammo I had on hand got run through one of the 357s and the resulting brass got put up with standard pressure charges and either Lymans #358477 or #358429. I have some Remington HBWCs on hand that might find their way into cases sometime, mostly to see how well they shoot from a Colt OMT (1949) that was looking lonely and ignored in the safe a few days ago. I do load 357 brass with #358429 to 975-1000 FPS, and those are fun in my 686 x 4". I don't carry the 38 Special in harm's way, it is purely a target and small game hunting number for me. These "+P+" 38s in 357 brass DO IN jackrabbits very well, and in the 686 or the Bisley Blackhawk are docile and accurate.

[FergusonTO35]

I see no reason to feed one of these guns anything other than mild ammo. If you believe you need something stronger, get a gun that is made to handle it. Simple as that. Colt even makes a +P capable steel frame Cobra nowadays if you just gotta have that pony.

[Petrol & Powder]

Yours looks like a clone of mine which was tweaked by Sandy Garrett at NoVA Gun Works.

Maybe we should "breed" them 8-)

They breed all on their own

When I put the Detective Special in the safe with a 2" S&W Model 12:218858

they did breed and a Ruger SPNY appeared:

218859

You can't leave them in the safe alone, they produce all kinds of mutts !

[Tatume]

I see no reason to feed one of these guns anything other than mild ammo. If you believe you need something stronger, get a gun that is made to handle it. Simple as that. Colt even makes a +P capable steel frame Cobra nowadays if you just gotta have that pony.

This may be true for continuous practice, but for day-to-day carry my aluminum framed, , non-+P rated 38 Special is hands-down superior. I do not shoot it with +P, and if I ever (God forbid) have to shoot it, that one to a few shots will not hurt it as much as I was about to be hurt.

[RU shooter]

This thread brings me back to my stupid years when I was early 20's when I had a near mint condition early unshrouded alloy colt agent and sold it a few months later to get a the latest and greatest at the moment 9mm the then new 3913 . Wish I could have a do over on that deal geeesh !

[Gunslinger1911]

Dang, wish I still had my 3913, best little 9mm I ever had.

[Bigslug]

You could reach for recycled shotgun slugs (@ 40-1 / 8BHN in my experience) or the cores of jacketed scroungings melted (@ 25-1 or 30-1 / 9 BHN) and have enough tin on board to fill fairly decently.

In the matrix of enough penetration out of a snubby and not beating up the gun, I'd be inclined to stick with the softer metal SWC or WFN , possibly lose the hollowpoint and run a bit softer load.

[USSR]

Have been working with the FBI Load for several years now. My revolver is a 2.5" S&W Model 19. Using published load data, I got 845fps with AA#5 and 945fps with HS-6. You have to use powders in this burn rate, and not something faster, to reach a good velocity without bumping up against pressure constraints. Regarding alloy, keep antimony content to a minimum. My alloy is 97% Pb, 2.5% Sn, and only 0.5% Sb. The bullet in the middle is the AA#5 load, and the bullet on the right is the HS-6 load. As you can see, there is no fragmenting, and the bullets are fully expanded and retain 100% of their weight.

Don

Hollowpoint Testing.jpg (73.7 KB)

[tazman]

Have been working with the FBI Load for several years now. My revolver is a 2.5" S&W Model 19. Using published load data, I got 845fps with AA#5 and 945fps with HS-6. You have to use powders in this burn rate, and not something faster, to reach a good velocity without bumping up against pressure constraints. Regarding alloy, keep antimony content to a minimum. My alloy is 97% Pb, 2.5% Sn, and only 0.5% Sb. The bullet in the middle is the AA#5 load, and the bullet on the right is the HS-6 load. As you can see, there is no fragmenting, and the bullets are fully expanded and retain 100% of their weight.

Don

Hollowpoint Testing.jpg (73.7 KB)

Very impressive results.

[Livin_cincy]

The bullet in the middle is the AA#5 load, and the bullet on the right is the HS-6 load. As you can see, there is no fragmenting, and the bullets are fully expanded and retain 100% of their weight.

Don

Hollowpoint Testing.jpg (73.7 KB)

Thanks for sharing.

Just a few questions.

Did you shoot into water or gelatin ?

Did you shoot thru any clothing like barrier(s) ?

Sometimes HP's get clogged and do not open so I am curious.

[scattershot]

P&P: Those are stunning grips on that Model 12, who made them?

[USSR]

Thanks for sharing.

Just a few questions.

Did you shoot into water or gelatin ?

Did you shoot thru any clothing like barrier(s) ?

Sometimes HP's get clogged and do not open so I am curious.

I shoot into water-soaked newsprint. Have found water alone to be too hard, and ballistic gelatin is expensive and a PITA. Thought about putting some cloth up, but was more concerned about whether the hollowpoint "petals" would fragment in any way. As you can see, the hollowpoints are not exactly small, so it's hard for me to imagine that they would become completely filled up with material and not expand.

Don

[Livin_cincy]

I shoot into water-soaked newsprint. Don

I would think water soaked news print would clog a hollow point if it was prone to it.

[gregtu]

Wow!... I agree with the OP on the fact that this is a great site with lots of experienced and expert advice. I'll be honest, that my only 38 special is a Chiefs special that was passed down from my grandfather. I generally just shoot wadcutters from a few molds that I have. I don't have a chrono, nor do I figure it to be my SD gun, but it really shoots a good 158 wadcutter and (about) the same in an HP. I think even at lower pressures and velocity, a bad guy will not do so well. Just jumping in to an over-me conversation that interests me.

[FergusonTO35]

This may be true for continuous practice, but for day-to-day carry my aluminum framed, , non-+P rated 38 Special is hands-down superior. I do not shoot it with +P, and if I ever (God forbid) have to shoot it, that one to a few shots will not hurt it as much as I was about to be hurt.

10-4. I can't deal with much recoil in a handgun, so I take the opposite approach. I feed my S&W 637 a Lyman 148 grain full wadcutter over 3.1 grains Bullseye for a consistent 712 fps. This load is super accurate and has mild recoil, meaning I have a much better chance of putting two slugs in the bad guy where they need to go. I practice single and double action, with one and two hands. Every test I have seen indicates mild wadcutters have comparable penetration to pricey JHP's, including the FBI load and Speer 135 grain short barrel load. The big flat nose and sharp shoulders should create a nice wound channel too.

[Petrol & Powder]

P&P: Those are stunning grips on that Model 12, who made them?

Thanks, they were made by Craig Spegel and all of the credit goes to him.

[USSR]

I would think water soaked news print would clog a hollow point if it was prone to it.

Hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense.

Don

[charlie b]

Wet newsprint does not 'clog' HP bullets. They expand nicely. You would do well to test with denim, at least two layers. 30 yrs ago Mm father-in-law and I did a lot of testing to find HP for short barrel .45 ACP loads. We used two layers of denim or one of denim and one of flannel. Just about any HP lead bullet would clog with denim and not expand at the sub 1000fps velocities. Even the Silver tips and Gold Dots back then would clog and not expand when fired from a short barrel pistol.

Many modern factory HP designs do expand even when fired through clothing.

The good thing about the SWC design is that even if it does not expand the shoulder cuts a nice round channel that 'bleeds' easily.

I do not fire self defense loads from many of my guns on a regular basis. I fire them to check for functioning reliability, but, that's it. All my practice loads are below max. Semi-autos get loads that funtion reliably.

And, no, I do not carry reloads in my self defense pistols. Factory stuff performs better in the wide range of conditions that you might face.

[Petrol & Powder]

With the right load the 38 Special snubnose performs way above expectations. On paper its performance looks to be rather mundane but in the real world it has an incredibly good track record.

It is important to understand why the 38 Special performs above expectations.
In a snubnose, the 158 grain projectile will reach into the 800 fps range when pushed by +P pressures, but that's about all one can hope for in terms of speed. What makes that projectile so effective is the fact that around the 150-160 grain weight range the bullet penetrates well in the corresponding 750-825 fps velocity range. When given the correct alloy and bullet profile, that effectiveness can be maximized.
You can trade mass for speed but the sweet spot seems to be around the 150-160 grain weight in terms of achieving penetration with that diameter bullet. When we go heavier the speed drops off quickly and when we go lighter the penetration suffers.
Speer went lighter and faster with their 135 grain Gold Dot "Short Barrel" load but had to use a jacketed hollowpoint to delay expansion in order to achieve the needed penetration. There's no free lunch in the world of physics.

The traditional 158 grain lead round nose bullet was notoriously ineffective in the 38 Special. The only thing that made that projectile work at all was precise bullet placement. Many savvy cops knew the flat nosed full wadcutter was more likely to stop an attacker than the round nosed bullet and many cops resorted to carrying those full WC loads.

Eventually science overcame tradition and we started to see more effective 38 Special self-defense loads. In that endeavor we started to put together features that we knew were likely to improve the performance of a 38 Special cartridge. Features such as SWC profile, soft alloys, hollowpoints and as much velocity as we could safety impart to the projectile. In the end, it turns out the combination of a soft LSWC hollowpoint driven at +P velocities was very good at achieving desired results.
There was some tweeking of details such as the size of the hollowpoint cavity and the particular alloy but for the most part the formula for the "FBI Load" was established by the mid 1970's. What came next was sort of a fortunate fluke. It turns out the "FBI Load" works well in a 4" revolver AND a 2" snubnose. In fact, it was one of the few rounds that worked even when a short barrel robbed it of some velocity.
Even at around 800 fps the slug would reliably penetrate and it would often expand at those lower velocities. When it didn't expand, it still performed well.
The mechanism seems to be that the combination of 158 gains, soft lead SWC, hollowpoint at +P velocities works over a large range of velocities and the lower end of those velocities fall within what a snubnose is capable of achieving.

Lots of people attempted to improve upon that formula but for about the last 40+ years it seems to be holding its own. You can re-invent the wheel but..... in the end you'll have something that looks suspiciously like .... a wheel.

[35remington]

In a snubby the mentioned bullet often does not “classically” expand but rather puckers the nose a bit.

This would be erroneously seen by many as a failure but it is really not. In so doing adequate penetration is ensured, even if some impediment to penetration like a cross body shot occurs, intervening arm is present, or a larger person is involved. Penetration is usually about 10-20 percent less when this happens than a cast solid wadcutter shot at 780 fps from the same snubby but still considerably more than the minimum FBI standard, approximating the upper end of the acceptable range, which is actually more where I want to be.

A great influence on how well the bullet expands is where the powder is in the case when the round is fired. If it is bunched up near the bullet when the trigger is pulled expansion is less likely, but a moderately upset bullet performs as described in the previous paragraph, which is just fine.

It is possible with loads on the very top of what is claimed to be standard pressure (5.4 grains Power Pistol) to obtain 840-850 fps in a snubby. 6 grains is upper end Plus P but no fun in an aluminum 638 and controllability suffers so I avoid such loads. In truth, as others may agree here, I find them unnecessary.

[texasnative46]

To All,

IF you will pardon a recitation of my practical experience as a former railroad agent, city marshal & deputy sheriff of long ago (when we LEO nearly all carried either a revolver or a 1911 in .45ACP) , you would be BETTER OFF if you are going to carry a .38 "snubbie" with the so-called ".38SPL Super Police". i.e., a 200 grain soft lead bullet at about 650-700FPS.

Truth is that in my youth as a rookie LEO, the veterans thought it was "REALLY FUNNY" to send "the kid" to "observe" every autopsy. = I was "sworn in" as a Deputy Constable 4 days after I turned 18YO.
I attended MANY autopsies in each of my first few years of police work, until it wasn't so "FUNNY" anymore.
(Part of the reason that they stopped sending me to observe is that I started telling everyone in clinical detail about the ME's observations during meals with the veterans. = In those long ago days, the SO's staff ate our meals "family-style" at the "employees dining facility" inside the jail. = GOOD FOOD, too, btw.)

In any case, the "old-school" .38 Super Police load WRECKS the inside of the K5 area & W/O damaging the revolver or the shooter. = It's truly "A KILLER" out of a 2" barrel because it TUMBLES inside the body cavity & "expends its energy" therein.
(That load does NOT usually tumble out of a 4" or longer barrel but it's still OK as a defensive round out to 25M+. - One autopsy that I remember was the ME's examination of the opened chest of a armed burglar, who "got in a shootout" with a detective at a reported 15-20M. = TWO shots of Winchester .38 Super Police RNL from a 2" S&W Model 10 revolver "took out" BOTH lungs & converted his heart to "mush". = DRT.)

Note: In those "days of yore" my duty/off-duty revolver was a 1st-issue Colt's Cobra & I never felt "under-armed" with it.

yours, tex

[dubber123]

I just re-read a Brian Pearce article in an older Handloader magazine that claims a 158 gr boolit can be run to 900 Fps. in a 2" snub at upper standard pressures using Power Pistol powder. In my testing of cast HPs in snubs, the more velocity the better. My personal load runs 875 Fps. from my 2" 640 S&W. I have seen 900 fps, but they leaded just a touch, so I knocked off a bit. If recoil is an issue, I would take a wadcutter over a non expanding boolit with a smaller meplat.

[Char-Gar]

I have a very big fan of the 38 Special round and Smith and WEsson and Colt revolvers. Threads like this draw me like a kitten to a bowl of cream. Excellent information has been given by people with the knowledge and experience to speak with true authority. There is nothing I can add other than say, I enjoyed reading this thread.

[35remington]

900 fps in a snubby with a 158 ain’t gonna happen, speaking of 1 7/8 inch barrels and standard pressures.
The 840-850 FPS range is the most that can be hoped for. Pearce had a recent article on standard and Plus P loads in an LCR and none of the standard velocity loads he mentioned reached 900. Or anywhere near it. I do not consider 840-850 to be “near.”

Most of the standard pressure loads given top out in the 800-820 FPS range.

If one winds up in that range (900) with an aluminum gun, two things happen, neither good. Controllability goes south, at least in my hands, and gun longevity plummets.

[texasnative46]

35Remington,

SPOT ON and it is my position that there's NO good reason (in the REAL world) for a "snubbie" .38SPL load of that "+P++" speed. = That's WHY the .357 Magnum was "invented". if you think that you need it & can control the revolver to hit the target.
(Fyi, I once traded for a Model 29 S&W with a 4" barrel & almost developed "a permanent flinch" from firing HOT loads in it. - I finally went to a .44SPL lead bullet load & did fine thereafter.)

just my OPINION, tex

[USSR]

Wet newsprint does not 'clog' HP bullets. They expand nicely. You would do well to test with denim, at least two layers. 30 yrs ago Mm father-in-law and I did a lot of testing to find HP for short barrel .45 ACP loads. We used two layers of denim or one of denim and one of flannel. Just about any HP lead bullet would clog with denim and not expand at the sub 1000fps velocities. Even the Silver tips and Gold Dots back then would clog and not expand when fired from a short barrel pistol.


Well, I will have to try with some flannel then, as I'm not as bad enough of a shot to shoot somebody in his jeans. :bigsmyl2:

Don

[texasnative46]

USSR,

You MAY want to try a flannel shirt with a heavy leather jacket "buttoned over" a torso-form.

yours, tex

[35remington]

For whatever reason, unless loads are of the highest permissible pressure levels some folks just aren’t interested. In my younger days I was of that notion, and when I obtained a very nice C series M and P I was actually disappointed to discover it was not rated for Plus P loads. Little did I know of what was really important and usable.

Time and better perspective, as well as my usage of lightweight five shot Smiths served to disabuse me of the notion that gun straining loads are in any way necessary in the Special. It does just fine at standard pressures, and a 158 at reasonable speed will do anything reasonable to expect from the cartridge. A 158 at around 810 fps, which is what top end standard pressure gets in my 638 with 4.7 grains Unique (or whatever similar velocity occurs with other powders or factory loadings) is about all I want.

[tazman]

I agree with 35remington. Standard loads and bullet placement do everything needed from a 38 special.
Out to any distance that I can be accurate with a handgun, I don't feel under gunned. If the target is farther away, I need a rifle no matter the caliber of my handgun.

[Petrol & Powder]

It has been a long time since I had access to a chronograph but I have done a fair amount of testing in the past.

Things may have changed but I don't recall ever getting anywhere close to 900 fps with a 158 grain bullet fired from a 1 7/8" J-frame; at least not within SAAMI +P pressure limits.

It's very tempting for some folks to start chasing the velocity rabbit and I learned a long time ago that speed isn't everything.

[FergusonTO35]

I once talked to an old copper whose career ran from the 60's into the 90's. He said the FBI load was the most effective handgun round he ever saw. He said he had sat in on autopsies of perps whose careers were cut short with these rounds and the results were impressive. "One per customer is all you need" he quipped.

[Groo]

Groo here
There was an fbi loading just before they changed to autos .
The issue pistol was a snub barrel m13 or m19 in 357...
But due to the short ejector , 357 cases had problems, so ammo was made in 38 length cases.
This ammo was never sold or given to others.
Had 2 different people from the bureau tell about it.
For a similar loading ,look at Buffelo Bore 38 spec "heavy" loading.
This is about the old 38-44 Highspeed or Highwaypatrol loading and all S&W 38's were proofed for it [including the J frames ]
back when S&W only made steel guns...

[dubber123]

900 fps in a snubby with a 158 ain’t gonna happen, speaking of 1 7/8 inch barrels and standard pressures.
The 840-850 FPS range is the most that can be hoped for. Pearce had a recent article on standard and Plus P loads in an LCR and none of the standard velocity loads he mentioned reached 900. Or anywhere near it. I do not consider 840-850 to be “near.”

Most of the standard pressure loads given top out in the 800-820 FPS range.

If one winds up in that range (900) with an aluminum gun, two things happen, neither good. Controllability goes south, at least in my hands, and gun longevity plummets.

I do not have the article in front of me, but I do believe the load was 5.8 grains of Power Pistol, and the pressure was tested at 17,000 Psi. I have not chronographed this load, and do not have access to pressure testing equipment, however I believe Mr. Pearce does.

[Outpost75]

If I am correct, Power Pistol has been discontinued and replaced by AutoComp.
5 grains is the +P load, with AutoComp using a 158-grain bullet in .38 Special.

[JBinMN]

If I am correct, Power Pistol has been discontinued and replaced by AutoComp.
5 grains is the +P load, with AutoComp using a 158-grain bullet in .38 Special.

You must be mistaken about that & perhaps are thinking of some other powders.
Power Pistol is made by Alliant Powder & AutoComp is made by Winchester/Western, and neither are discontinued from what I can find out by looking at their websites, as well as using a search engine to try to find out.

[FergusonTO35]

Nit picking here, but I thought Hodgdon now made all W-W powders?

[35remington]

Alliant lists 5.4 grains of Power Pistol as the top of the standard pressure range and six grains as the top end Plus P. I have chronoed the 5.4 and six grain loads.

The Pearce article I quoted is before me. No standard pressure load exceeded 850 fps and any load approximating 900 fps was listed as Plus P.

When handloads start to equal or substantially exceed the velocities obtained from factory Plus P, the “no free lunches” alarm starts jangling in my head.

For the other reasons mentioned I do not go over 810 fps myself.

[Petrol & Powder]

Groo here
There was an fbi loading just before they changed to autos .
The issue pistol was a snub barrel m13 or m19 in 357...
But due to the short ejector , 357 cases had problems, so ammo was made in 38 length cases.
This ammo was never sold or given to others.
Had 2 different people from the bureau tell about it.
For a similar loading ,look at Buffelo Bore 38 spec "heavy" loading.
This is about the old 38-44 Highspeed or Highwaypatrol loading and all S&W 38's were proofed for it [including the J frames ]
back when S&W only made steel guns...

The last revolver issued by the Bureau was the S&W Model 13 with a 3" barrel and a round butt grip frame. It was one of the few good ideas the Bureau ever had. The two loads permitted to be carried in that gun were the 38 Special +P 158gr LSWCHP [FBI Load] and the Winchester .357 mag 145 grain Silvertip.

The 3 inch barreled Model 13 had a full length ejector. Prior to the adoption of the model 13, there were some model 10's (38 Special) with 2.5" barrels carried by agents.
However, Agents were permitted to purchase and carry privately owned guns if the armorers approved them and they qualified with them. There were a quite a few 2.5" model 19's carried by agents and in the 1980's there were a few 2.5" 686's used.

The "Special" or "Unique to the Bureau" 38 loading was nothing more than the standard "FBI Load" (158gr, +P LSWCHP). I'm sure the "Bureau" told agents that the load was special FBI only ammunition because that's consistent with internal Bureau brainwashing but the load was the same one commercially available everywhere.

[Thumbcocker]

"If I am correct, Power Pistol has been discontinued and replaced by AutoComp"

NOOOOOOO [smilie=b:

[ReloaderFred]

Nit picking here, but I thought Hodgdon now made all W-W powders?

Hodgdon doesn't make any of their powders. They own the brand names, and they have them made to their specifications by others. The Winchester ball powders are made by St. Marks Powder Co., in St. Marks, FL. Other powders are made in Canada, Australia, Europe, etc.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[dubber123]

Alliant lists 5.4 grains of Power Pistol as the top of the standard pressure range and six grains as the top end Plus P. I have chronoed the 5.4 and six grain loads.

The Pearce article I quoted is before me. No standard pressure load exceeded 850 fps and any load approximating 900 fps was listed as Plus P.

When handloads start to equal or substantially exceed the velocities obtained from factory Plus P, the “no free lunches” alarm starts jangling in my head.

For the other reasons mentioned I do not go over 810 fps myself.

Must be a new article. My memory is not steel trap tight, but hasn't completely gone away either. I will retrieve the article when possible, it is 4 hours away. I am quite sure it was listed as 5.8 PP with a 158, and pressure at 17,000 Psi. Misprint? Accurate? I don't know. I trust Pearce to accurately represent pressure as much as I trust manuals to downgrade loads. If I had the equipment, I would know myself. I can chronograph said 5.8/158 load, but pressures will be up to speculation.

[USSR]

Fred is correct. Hodgdon has never made a powder. They buy the rights to name brands and have the various powder manufacturers put the Hodgdon label on their powders for the Hodgdon powders.

Don

[35remington]

It would be most prudent to presume any load generating 900 fps in a snubby with a 158 grain is not generating modest pressures.

If something seems to be beyond what is reasonable, it probably is, by the “no free lunch” principle. Mild loads are very likely not outrunning factory Plus P by large margins while remaining mild. If conflicting information is present, the smart move in hand loading is to presume the “good news” is not as represented and is actually not in your favor.

The article I reference is in a special edition made by Wolfe detailing the top ten most handloaded handgun cartridges.

Consider 5.8 grains PP plus P because Alliant says it is and the claimed velocity says it is. Two out of three is persuasive.

[brassrat]

Whether 800fps or 900fps, it will take the starch out of a bad guy.

No No it will put the starch in him

[35remington]

I do think Pearce is a generally reliable commentator, but I view his judgement on this matter in handloading some of the listed pistol cartridges as rather flawed. And not only in 38 Special.

For example, he lists 95 grain bullets at up to 1125 fps in some of his handloads from the lightweight short barreled 380 Ruger LCP. Most of the loads have top ends way beyond factory loads. Setting aside the issue of vastly accelerated wear over factory loads that average 225 to 275 fps slower than this with the same bullet weight in the tiny Ruger LCP, if the dynamics of pistol function are understood correctly by the reader, then they would know that the odds of inertial malfunctions and other power related maladies that cause less reliability soar when automatic pistols are overdriven.

Here we are talking about about 170 ft lbs (95@900) versus 267 ft lbs (95@1125). The odds of having the gun puke the round free from the feed lips instead of feeding it when the slide strikes the frame with greatly increased force or having the slide outrun the magazine due to excessive slide velocity and elastic rebound from its impact abutment go WAY up.

If you see someone advocating something contradictory, look at the rest of their body of work. If some other advice looks imprudent as well, the contradictory advice is piling up.

Take heed.

[Petrol & Powder]

It has been many years since I tested 158 grain 38 Special loads over a chronograph but I never got anywhere close to 900 fps out of a 2" barrel, even with +P pressures. In a 4" barrel with +P pressures it's easy to get 158 grain bullets to 900 fps.

I'm not going to say that 900 fps with a 158 grain bullet is impossible from a 2" barrel while remaining under 20K psi but I will say that I'm extremely skeptical of those claims.

[dubber123]

Lacking pressure testing equipment, I still will assemble some of the 5.8/PP/158 loads and chronograph them out of curiosity. I would not be surprised either way to see 900 fps, but I am guessing slightly less. I HAVE seen that velocity from my model 60 and 640, but I was after the most effective carry loads I could assemble, and was only concerned with function and accuracy, no sticky extraction, horribly leaded bore, etc. I'm quite sure pressures were up there, but judged safe by ME, and not intended for volume shooting.

[35remington]

My point is also that I would most assuredly not use some of his loads even if volume shooting was not involved.

Asking an Airweight Smith to run at 1000 fps with a 158 is, well.....lunacy.

I did not go into detail discussing some of the inadvisable 38 Special loads he lists. There are more than a few.

[Gunslinger1911]

Great info and food for thought.
Remember, these loads are going in a Detective Spl, a little stronger than a J frame, prob not as punishing either. A set of rubber grips will help the hand also.
Yes, these will be +P.'s
Top load is 6.7 g HS-6 with a 150 g. 1025 f/s out of a 4"bbl - whatever out of a snubby.
I'm loading in steps to see what she can handle, she may not like the full tilt loads.
No, not a steady diet of these, couple cylinders full each range day after some "normal" 150's.

Just as an aside, she is taking her CC class this weekend, I told her to watch the instructors face when she pulls out the Python for the shooting part (she's not used to the DS yet).

Discussion / debate is the root of all knowledge; keep it coming guys !

[35remington]

An old Detective Special is most assuredly not stronger than a new J frame. The metallurgy is inferior.

Authoritative advice that your gun not be subjected to Plus P loads has already been presented. It is your gun, do with it what you will.

But if all the aforementioned advice has unfortunately made no impression, then the consequences are yours to own. Any firearm that is no longer made combined with hot loads beyond its maker’s expressed advice to use seems to be a very incompatible pairing.

Here is where I suggest that a reread of post #13 in this thread is in order.

[Petrol & Powder]

Looking at Alliant's own data found here: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=8&cartridge=27

I see a 158 LSWC at +P pressures and 1037 fps in a 6" barrel. I don't know if that is a vented barrel to duplicate a revolver cylinder gap or just a solid test barrel. In any event, I think 900 fps with a 158gr bullet in a 2" revolver barrel is probably not going to happen within SAAMI specs.

I could be wrong but I've shot a LOT of 38 Special loads from snubnose revolvers over the years.

[35remington]

Agree with the above in principle. I believe in neither the need for ballistic miracles nor the need to drive a 38 hard from a small short barreled gun. Especially an aluminum gun or one not rated for Plus P.

Controllable repeat fire counts for much to me as well.

[35remington]

Since the FBI load is more proven that whatever you can assemble, a suggested policy for the OP is to completely forget the needless experimentation with Plus P handloads in a gun not rated for them, practice with non Plus P loads and then if you must, carry the FBI loads in the gun for needful purposes only, shooting very few of those as well.

[USSR]

FWIW, 900+ fps is easily reachable in the 2.5" S&W's. Using published load data for HS-6, I easily get 945fps. The bullet on the right in my above pic was traveling at that speed.

Don

[35remington]

Just about any velocity is reachable. In an old Dectective Special, the question is what is advisable.

[Petrol & Powder]

If 900 + fps in a 2" revolver is important to you........have at it.

I will not strive for that benchmark.

I certainly wouldn't strive for it in a Detective Special or an alloy framed snubnose.

[texasnative46]

Petrol & Powder.

Agreed 100%.

Btw, I'd like to find another Model 12 S&W (at a reasonable price) to replace the one that I had stolen in a house burglary in May 2017. = It was "near perfection" as a hide-out gun under an untucked golf shirt, when loaded with 6 rounds of HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE.

yours, tex

[9.3X62AL]

One of my least wise dispositions was the Model 10 x 2" I sold off when my shop went to autopistols in 1987. A 2" Model 10 or 64 would delightful, and a 3" Model 13 would make my day.

[Forrest r]

FWIW, 900+ fps is easily reachable in the 2.5" S&W's. Using published load data for HS-6, I easily get 945fps. The bullet on the right in my above pic was traveling at that speed.

Don

Exactly, no problem getting 900+fps out a a 2" bbl'd ca undercover with 158gr bullets and pp/2400/longshot.

Just as firearms are different bullet design, alloy, lube/coating will also make a huge difference in performance. Different 140gr to 160gr 35cal hp's, some will do 30+fps more with the same load compared to others in a 2" bbl'd 38spl. Couple that with some powders have a sharp snap to them while other tend to have more of a push.
https://i.imgur.com/vSAh3bs.jpg

Really don't know what all the talk about uncontrollable recoil is all about???? Heck, last time I did p+ testing I ran 500 rounds of p+ 38spls in this 16oz ca undercover. The 1st 400 rounds were ok, the last 100 were taxing. There's a huge difference between 10 boxes of p+ ammo in 4 hours and a couple pulls of the trigger if needed.
https://i.imgur.com/7iOwgin.jpg

If you have to use standard velocity 38spl's, stick with powders like titegroup. Titegroup will easily outperform standard velocity 38spl/unique loads. Higher velocity, extremely low spread from shot to shot & it isn't anywhere near as position sensitive as unique.

If you're having a hard time controlling a snubnosed 38spl with hot loads you really should look for a different firearm. All's you're doing is limiting/lowering yours and everyone else around you chances of surviving if you ever have to use it. If you must carry a snubnosed 38spl and can't handle the recoil, a 200gr rn bullet is superior to a 148gr/160gr wc.

I take that 16oz ca undercover to the range every couple months with 100 rounds of 158gr/950fps/p+ reloads pictured above. And practice 7yd/10yd/25yd left hand/right hand/2 handed drills at torso targets. But I also do the same thing with a 21oz ca bulldog (44spl) using 210gr/1000fps/p+ loads.

Today I had the s&w l-comp out and ran 300 rounds of full house 2400/158gr cast swc hp's in it. But 357's in a 3" bbl'd revolver doesn't mean much when it weighs 38oz and is ported. Don't like the recoil of a snubnosed 38spl, get a l-comp s&w. It will eat 38spl p+/357's like popcorn.
https://i.imgur.com/5vi2mrE.jpg

FWIW:
That ca undercover is nothing more than 1 of the misses cc firearms. I developed those 158gr/950fps/38spl p+ loads for her. She has no problem going to the range a couple times a year and putting that 16oz revolver thru it's paces burning a box or 2 each visit. She actually prefers a compact 9mm double stack but being the ca undercover is lighter. It gets used/carried most of the time.

[35remington]

I will again steer the discussion towards where it should be, which is the advisability of Plus P in a gun that is no longer made that the manufacturer suggests is not suitable for them. The usage of such must be pointed out as a “problem.”

[evoevil]

900 is a bit up there for a 2". I shoot 700+ in mine. I shoot regular 158SWC at about 12BHN, good all around for me

[35remington]

It is curious that the OP started off by asking about the Plus P FBI load, then after receiving good information about the gun still proposed loading to a considerably hotter velocity than the FBI load actually produces in a gun not rated for either the FBI load nor the hotter levels mentioned (158/900).

Just an observation of the thread’s development.

[Petrol & Powder]

We're all over the map on thread but I agree with 35Remington's post # 81. Beating up a nice Detective Special isn't a great idea, at least not in my book.

As for 900+ fps in a 2" barrel with a 158 grain bullet - I know it cannot be done within standard pressure limits (17k psi) and I seriously doubt that it can be done at +P pressures (20K psi).
Can you get more than 900 fps with a 2" barrel and 158 gr bullet? - Sure ! but I think you'll be over SAAMI +P limits.
More important, why would you want to?

[dverna]

This has been a great thread. I learned a lot.

[Gunslinger1911]

Great debate, no worries on varying opinions.

I did realize earlier that the 900 f/s target vel was from a 4" bbl, it is what it is from a 2".

IF, the daughter can control the hot +P load, It's not going to blow the gun; is 100 rounds of hot stuff a year going to accelerate wear - you bet.
She wants to use that particular gun (Papaw's), may carry it all the time, may be the night stand gun. I'm (trying to) duplicate what is considered the best load for it.
Am I pushing the envelope ? You becha.
Am I endangering my daughter ? Nope - gun is not going to come apart in her hand.
Am I endangering the gun ? Not really, with the low amount of zingers going through it.

Been reloading for 45 + years (currently, just about everything from 22tcm to 500 mag).
We all "experiment" in some way. We just have to use our best judgement.
John Ross saying "What if ?" got us 500 +g bullets out of the Smith 500.

PLEASE keep up the comments !
Pro, con, anything in between.
I'm not so arrogant that I don't listen; many , many people know more about guns / reloading than I.

[Char-Gar]

What age is that Detective Special? If it has the shrouded ejector rod it will take the pressures of +p loads far better than than one without the shroud. I would not shoot +p loads in one of the older Dick Specials.

The good news is that you can handload full charge wadcutters. Use solid base wadcutters over 3.5/Bulleye for a very good defensive load. For practice you can drop the powder charge to 3 grains for a mild shooting practice load. There is no real need to the +P loads.

[Gunslinger1911]

Mid 70's vintage, shrouded .

[35remington]

A two inch loses 100 fps over a 4 inch barrel. 900 fps is 800 fps or so in a two inch.

Your target velocity is 800 fps. This is much more sensible. This is obtained with 4.7 grains Unique or about 5.1 grains Power Pistol, both standard pressure. You have both your velocity goal (reasonable approximation of FBI load) and standard pressure. For practice I would suggest 3.5 grains Bullseye under a 158. The recoil level reasonably simulates what is needed.

Give serious thought to what Chargar posted. And yes, there is a lot of vast experience and good advice here that you need to heed.

[35remington]

And if it is shrouded, it can take some Plus P, but let her tell you what is appropriate recoilwise and go with that.

[Forrest r]

800fps is only sensible until it hits something hard/solid. Then it's just another under powered load/bullet combo that someone learned the hard way why they never should of used it in the 1st place.

A wc in a snubnosed 38spl would be my absolute last choice for sd. If more people would do some actual testing with them, they would quit recommending them. Going into anything soft they are no better or worse than any other bullet. Start adding in things like car windshields, hardwood trim, solid doors,etc. WC's in snubnosed revolvers loaded with standard pressure loads flat out suck.

A 12bhn 148gr hbwc doing 850fps out of a 6" bbl'd ppc revolver shooting bowling pins @ 50ft.
https://i.imgur.com/XVsDo3b.jpg

Same bullet/load has a hard time going thru 3/4" trim/plaster walls or 3/4" trim/drywall, 1 3/4" solid core doors. Car windshields are a joke, tons of ricochets along with forget about car doors with the glass down.

Same bullet pictured above recovered from that bowling pin.
https://i.imgur.com/FtYVPsq.jpg

There's trade-offs to everything. For some odd reason the 2" bbl'd 357's tend to out preform the 4" bbl'd 38spl's. Perhaps it has to do with velocity???
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

[35remington]

Well, since the FBI load only does about 800 odd fps out of most snubbies all those testimonials about its effectiveness when shooting people need to be explained.

Shooting someone who needs to be shot with a handgun is mostly about shooting the human. I have seen very few instances when the need to shoot through a hard intervening barrier was relevant to a civilian carrying a gun for self defense. No load in 38 Special has a sterling reputation for barrier penetration. May want to skip to the 357s for that.

Against clothing clad humans 800 fps is amply penetrative. If someone is behind a barrier I suggest getting behind one yourself or getting out of there. Threats are most often close, personal and with no intervening objects.

[9.3X62AL]

One good lesson I absorbed from my Dad was to have respect for any mechanism I chose to use or to work on. This included having a reasonable working knowledge of the tool's capabilities and limitations.

Prior to the intro of the 357 Magnum c.1935, the gunmakers brought out beefy 38 Specials meant for use with stoutly-loaded ammunition. S&W had their N-frame "Heavy Duty" and "Outdoorsman" models, Colt had their "New Service" large-frame and Model "P" suitable for such loads, and claimed that their "Official Police" on the "I"-frame (41 frame) could manage 38/44 ammo. (Not at my house!) Modern revolvers have evolved--we have small-frame S&W variants that can contain 357 Magnum cartridges, though I would stick to the 1990s SAAMI specs--I don't think that 1935-level Douglas Wesson loadings for the 357 Magnum would do ANY J- or K-frame 357s a whole lot of good. But for use of the +P "FBI Load" in a pocket revolver......one of these small-frame 357s might be just what the doctor ordered--a good margin of over-strength in the mechanism, and a reduction in recoil from the SAAMI 357 loadings. I am a seasoned handgunner, and I DO NOT ENJOY 357 ammo in J-frame revolvers. FBI loads are snappy but reasonable; my shop's authorized ammo in 38 Special is the Remington 125 grain JHP +P, and for the guys that used the 357 J-frames as back-up/off-duty tools I encouraged them to try the authorized +P 38s in place of the 357s. Many chose this option, given our strange and stilted quals regimen for secondary sidearms then in place.

[Char-Gar]

I am waiting to see my first pic of a bowling pin with any kind of handgun bullet fully embedded in it.

[Tatume]

I am waiting to see my first pic of a bowling pin with any kind of handgun bullet fully embedded in it.

Hi Charles,

The bowling pin pictured above appears to have an exit scar on the lower left. It could have been made by a rifle bullet though.

Take care, Tom

[RED BEAR]

one word of caution i and the wife carry only factory ammo for fear that if ever have to use it some lawyer will claim that this is the most deadly ammo ever made and that i was hiding in my little room trying to come up with the most evel killing ammo ever devised. don't get me wrong i do want to end a situation as quickly as possible just would rather not be prosecuted for doing so. around here it depends on which jurisdiction you are in.

[Char-Gar]

one word of caution i and the wife carry only factory ammo for fear that if ever have to use it some lawyer will claim that this is the most deadly ammo ever made and that i was hiding in my little room trying to come up with the most evel killing ammo ever devised. don't get me wrong i do want to end a situation as quickly as possible just would rather not be prosecuted for doing so. around here it depends on which jurisdiction you are in.

A stake has been driven through the heart of this baseless myth for several decades, but it refuses to die.

[35remington]

the 130 Federal HST I carry in my 638 has a hollow point wadcutter profile. In barrier penetration it makes an 800 fps cast wadcutter look like an armor piercing bullet. It does 14 inches in clothed gelatin. That will do what will need to be done.

If I have a five or six shot revolver shooting at someone behind a barrier is a waste of ammo no matter what caliber it is. With limited capacity apportioning your fire is wise. When I hear of scads of shootouts or even a smalll percentage involving barriers in CCW incidents I may change my mind but since I do not I have as little concern for the need for a bunch of barrier penetration as is merited.

In that case I would suggest a high capacity 10mm instead of a 38 snub.

[35remington]

Welll, we do know if “bloodthirsty handloader” was credible as an argument then nobody could safely use factory Magnum ammo either, and factory hollow points with lurid sounding acronyms like HST, SXT, PDX1, Ultimate Defense, etc would be asking for trouble as well.

The guy that originally tried to promote the idea of “bloodthirsty handloader” has dropped that line of reasoning as the nonsensical idea that it is and now claims handloads are inadvisable due to “dissimilar gunshot residue.”

When you have to shift your point to try to keep your premise valid, the premise was likely flawed to begin with.

[Petrol & Powder]

If I ever suspect I may be attacked by bowling pins......I'll be sure to arm myself with the appropriate weapon and cartridge before I leave the house. :wink:

[Char-Gar]

If I ever suspect I may be attacked by bowling pins......I'll be sure to arm myself with the appropriate weapon and cartridge before I leave the house. :wink:

I once cleared a table full of them pretty darn quick with a full auto AK 47. It kicked them off the table, but didn't kill any of them. There were no through and through holes either, but scars and bruises. If you are going to kill one grave yard dead, better bring at least a 458 Win. Magnum.

[Petrol & Powder]

I once cleared a table full of them pretty darn quick with a full auto AK 47. It kicked them off the table, but didn't kill any of them. There were no through and through holes either, but scars and bruises. If you are going to kill one grave yard dead, better bring at least a 458 Win. Magnum.

I'll keep that mind but so far it hasn't been a problem :bigsmyl2:

[dubber123]

I only had a few to check, but the 5.8 grains of Power Pistol load with a 158 gr boolit I mentioned reading about made just about 50 fps. less than the 900 fps. mark, averaging 849 fps. from my 1-7/8" S&W 640.

[35remington]

Sometimes which 158 grain bullet has a bearing on the velocity obtained as well.

[Petrol & Powder]

I only had a few to check, but the 5.8 grains of Power Pistol load with a 158 gr boolit I mentioned reading about made just about 50 fps. less than the 900 fps. mark, averaging 849 fps. from my 1-7/8" S&W 640.

/\ I think that's about right /\ and likely about max in that 2" (2ish inch) barrel with that bullet and within SAAMI limits.

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't know where my notebooks are and I've moved a few times since; but when I was testing snubnose loads, 158 grain bullets struggled to get into the mid 800 fps range.

The Alliant data I linked a few posts back showed a 158 grain LSWC with 6 grains of Power Pistol at 1037 fps in a 6 inch barrel. I don't know if that was a vented barrel or not. That falls right in line with 849 fps in a 1 7/8" revolver barrel (with a cylinder gap) and 5.8 grains of Power Point.

[Gunslinger1911]

For the bowling pin through and through, I'm thinkin 300 win mag with a solid copper bullet ? Medium frontal area, lots velocity.

[dubber123]

Sometimes which 158 grain bullet has a bearing on the velocity obtained as well.

Indeed it does, amongst a few other variables, which is why I didn't use some of the heavy walled military cases I have which can add a few fps. over other cases. The boolit I chose was a 158 gr. SWC HP from my Lyman mold. Cases were single cannelure RP, Winchester standard primer. The 640 used is a pretty tight example with good specs.

I have seen 900 fps. from this gun, but IF this 5.8 Power Pistol load is indeed 17,000 Psi, and a standard pressure loading, I would have to exceed that in my particular gun/load combo to make it happen again.

[FergusonTO35]

800fps is only sensible until it hits something hard/solid. Then it's just another under powered load/bullet combo that someone learned the hard way why they never should of used it in the 1st place.

A wc in a snubnosed 38spl would be my absolute last choice for sd. If more people would do some actual testing with them, they would quit recommending them. Going into anything soft they are no better or worse than any other bullet. Start adding in things like car windshields, hardwood trim, solid doors,etc. WC's in snubnosed revolvers loaded with standard pressure loads flat out suck.

A 12bhn 148gr hbwc doing 850fps out of a 6" bbl'd ppc revolver shooting bowling pins @ 50ft.
https://i.imgur.com/XVsDo3b.jpg

Same bullet/load has a hard time going thru 3/4" trim/plaster walls or 3/4" trim/drywall, 1 3/4" solid core doors. Car windshields are a joke, tons of ricochets along with forget about car doors with the glass down.

Same bullet pictured above recovered from that bowling pin.
https://i.imgur.com/FtYVPsq.jpg

There's trade-offs to everything. For some odd reason the 2" bbl'd 357's tend to out preform the 4" bbl'd 38spl's. Perhaps it has to do with velocity???
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

I have been using logs for informal penetration testing for years. My experience is that wood is very effective at stopping lead bullets regardless of cartridge. The wood fibers catch the soft metal and slow it down in a hurry. If you are using a high velocity lead bullet such as a .30-30 the bullet will penetrate more but show significant deformation and may even fragment. FMJ does a better job of penetrating, however one notices that the bullets are often flattened lengthwise from being compressed by wood fibers.

[Outpost75]

Is Power Pistol still available? I've been using 5.0 grains of AutoComp with a 158-160-grain lead bullet in. 38Special for +P, giving results similar to Unique, but the finer particle size will measure uniformly in the Dillon machine.

4.2 grains of current Alliant Bullseye is my +P for bullets of that weight class in the nubbies shorter than 2.5".

[tazman]

I can see where a police officer might need to penetrate a car door or windshield to stop a perp. I haven't been able to think of a defensive situation I might run into where I would need a bullet to penetrate anything harder than a person's clothing before entering their body.
I don't expect I will ever need to shoot through a car to defend myself. If I have time to draw and aim at a car coming at me, I have time to get out of the way.

[texasnative46]

tazman,


AGREED 100%. = I retired from LE in 11/2006 & no longer have to "stay & fight". = These days, I'm a "cornered cat"- Try to corner me & I'll scratch/bite/claw & DEPART.

yours, tex

[JBinMN]

Is Power Pistol still available?

Yes.
:)

Graf & sons, Midsouth, Powder valley, Bruno Shooter Supply, etc. have it in stock.
:)

[Forrest r]

Apparently a lot people have never shot bowling pins. Any heavy 357 load with a rn or swc cast bullet that weigh 158gr or more will penetrate a pin. Shot countless 1000's of pins with a 357/358311/1250fps load. Was nothing to see the nose of the bullet sticking out the back of the pin when you hit the pin where your supposed to to drvie them off the table. Namely in the trademark (see picture above/post #91).

By all accounts????? Great more new math.
By all accounts the fbi/chicago/treasury load that skeeter developed with keith bullets was designed for 4" and longer bbl's. It was never designed for snub nosed revolvers and is an extremely poor performer in +/- 2" bbl'd 38spl's. In post #91 there is a link showing tests with in 2" bbl'd revolvers using the "factory fbi" loads. All 3 sucked!!!

Barriers:
I don't have a crystal ball nor do I turn a blind eye toward the fact that. If I'm out of the house and carrying, a large % of that carry time will be in a vehicle. Nor do I turn a blind eye to the fact that the house I live in is older with thick plaster walls (5 1/2" and 7") along with solid core doors and 3/4" hardwood trim. I have a choice to either turn a blind eye to those facts or test and choose a bullet/load that mitigates the possibility that a bullet might actually get stopped in such things.

Anyway, if don't spend time in a vehicle with a cc. Then don't worry about the possibility you might actually have to shoot into 1.
If you never have a need to shoot into a door/wall/furniture, then by all means rely on mouse fart loads & shot placement.

Myself I've carried a snubnosed 44spl for 30+ years for a reason. Even with the 44spl, I don't use mouse fart wc target loads or standard pressure loads. Nor do I use mouse fart/standard loads in the 1911's/45acp. Or the snubnosed 357's. The misses wanted a 9mm and 38spl. When not carried they are around the house and hopefully I'll never have to pick 1 up let alone use it. For me it's:

9mm 124gr/1050fps minimun
38spl 158gr/950fps minimum
357 158gr/1150fps minimum
44spl 200gr/950fps minimum
45acp 225gr/950fps minimum

[Forrest r]

I wouldn't of even bothered to post in this thread. Just get tired of all the posts about:
hot loads can't be handled
shot placement is everything
parroting of decades old ideas/articles

My 50+ year old misses has no problem handling a 16oz snubnosed 38spl with 158gr p+ loads. If you can't, that's called a clue and you should consider finding something else.

A 2" bbl'd revolver with fixed sights & shot placement should always be in the same sentence. Now that you have you bullet/load dialed in to hit the poa @ 7yds what do you do @20yds? The reality of it is the snubnose is 1 step up from a knife and 12" groups/body shots and using the same firearm/load @ point blank range to 25yds is better than most people that own them can do.

A guy writes an article about taking cheap ammo/firearm into the woods for a last ditch survival light weight pack and it becomes internet lore and has been parroted ever since. Anyone that buys into that bs ought to try hunting with a revolver let alone a fixed sighted snubnosed revolver.

I see Pearce's name keeps coming up in this thread about an article from 2012. I'm not going to defend any of his articles or findings. But I will say that his findings can be bought for a yearly fee ($$$). Just a wild guess, bbbbuuuuuuuutttttttt, they probable have things like test equipment, a registered business that pays taxes/bwc/ins. You would think that if they sold a bunch of reloading info that did damage to firearms/people they wouldn't be in business for decades.

to the op:
I wouldn't give that old colt a steady diet of hot loads. But then again I wouldn't give anyone's children a hand full of 38spl/wc/loads to use for sd either.

[FergusonTO35]

I am honest in admitting I can't shoot strong loads in handguns, so I'll take accuracy and quick follow up shots any day.

[Petrol & Powder]

Forrest r, you seem to be developing some anger oven this thread and I'm not sure why. You are entitled to your opinions but that doesn't mean others are obligated to adopt your opinions.
I'm going to take a bit of exception to part of what you claim. The FBI Load actually does work rather well in 2" revolvers. It may have been designed for 4" barrels but it turned out to be a good performer in the 2" barrel. Its good performance in 2" barrels may have been a fluke but it was a positive one.

Forrest r wrote, ".....By all accounts the fbi/chicago/treasury load that skeeter developed with keith bullets was designed for 4" and longer bbl's. It was never designed for snub nosed revolvers and is an extremely poor performer in +/- 2" bbl'd 38spl's. In post #91 there is a link showing tests with in 2" bbl'd revolvers using the "factory fbi" loads. All 3 sucked!!!"

I disagree with your assertion that the FBI Load is a "poor performer in.... 2" barreled ....38 Specials". To the contrary, the FBI Load has a long track record of good results in snubnosed revolvers. I'm also not certain that the FBI Load was developed by Skeeter [Skelton] although I'm sure he would have experimented with variations of the FBI Load.

In that link you included in post #91 - the tests you refer to actually show the 158 gr LSWCHP loads all performing very well. Personally I think Lucky gunner is in the business of selling ammunition and I'm somewhat suspicious of their data but even their own data seems to contradict what you claim.
Those 158 gr LSWCHP loads all penetrated in the desired range. The lack of a perfectly mushroomed bullet means little. We're not trying to make pretty mushrooms, we're trying to stop someone from harming us. Expansion is just the icing on the cake and perfect mushrooms have little value outside of marketing.

The FBI Load is OLD and it is low tech. That doesn't mean it's bad and should be abandoned.

[FergusonTO35]

All the formal testing I have read about indicates that sedate full wadcutters have comparable penetration to +P, often more. Here is one example where the Federal Gold Medal match load fored from an LCR easily penetrates four layers of denim and 18 inches of gel:

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/federal-gold-medal-match-38-special.html

And, results for the Remington, Winchester, and Federal FBI loads fired out of the same gun. Interestingly, the FBI loads essentially turned themselves into full wadcutters upon impact!

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/02/remington-38-special-p-158-grain-lead.html

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/02/winchester-38-special-p-158-grain-lead.html

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/02/federal-38-special-p-158-grain-lead.html

[ReloaderFred]

I see the Treasury Load referenced in one of the posts. The Treasury Load was a completely different animal, consisting of a 110 gr. JHP bullet marked +P+ on the headstamp. There is no +P+ SAAMI standard, and it was only done to show that it was a hotter than +P load. Departments who used the Treasury Load had to sign a liability waiver before Winchester would sell them the ammunition. Our County Counsel wouldn't let the Sheriff sign it, so we opted for the Silver Tip when it was finally released by Winchester.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[35remington]

I find that cast wadcutters approximating the 705-780 fps range do 21-24 inches in gelatin or its equivalent. 158 Hp’s of swaged persuasion that do not expand much go 18-19 inches.

158 HP’s as described above that expand to the classic mushroom shape and fold their expanded diameter to envelop the shank of the bullet run closer to the 13 inch range.

As I said earlier, if one is using the limited ammo capacity of the revolver on a low percentage shot through a barrier even with a 357, that person is committing an error of judgement in my opinion.

Shooting at a person in a car or behind a wall when you could be getting out of there instead seems second choice to me. If they are behind a barrier wait for them to emerge as they are a greater threat then, and more likely to injure you with their own fire.

As I said, the number of civilian defensive shootings I have heard of, and I read a lot, that involved the need to perforate hard barriers to defend oneself approaches zero. That is why I do what I do and believe what I believe.

The FBI load does, in fact, have a good reputation from short barrels.

[texasnative46]

ReloaderFred,

Do you happen to know what the actual power & charge was for the so-called Winchester "Treasury Load"?
(I've, over the last decades, seen at least a half-dozen & different "theories" but NO facts.)

yours, tex

[Outpost75]

ReloaderFred,

Do you happen to know what the actual power & charge was for the so-called Winchester "Treasury Load"?
(I've, over the last decades, seen at least a half-dozen & different "theories" but NO facts.)

yours, tex

The Q4070 used noncanister powder which doesn't correspond to any of the powders available to hand loaders.

The ammo I have from that era gives 1040 fps from a 2-3/4" Ruger Speed Six. I have a "recipe" which matches that velocity using 231 powder, using the Winchester 110-gr. JHP component bullet, Winchester brass and WSP primer, but I won't post it here, because it exceeds published +P data substantially.

219237219238

The rounds I have are marked "+P+" with the factory code and year, as in military practice.

219239219240

[tazman]

I am currently loading some full wadcutters that are designed to be loaded long. Lyman 358432. They allow for full powder charges the same as a standard SWC boolit.
I am getting 950fps from a 6 inch barrel using CFE Pistol with a full power standard pressure loading. I don't have a snubbie to try it in.
NOE makes a version of this boolit that is available in hollow point if desired.

[35remington]

An educated guess would put that at about, again, 800 fps from a 1 7/8” Smith.

[ReloaderFred]

ReloaderFred,

Do you happen to know what the actual power & charge was for the so-called Winchester "Treasury Load"?
(I've, over the last decades, seen at least a half-dozen & different "theories" but NO facts.)

yours, tex

I was rangemaster for our department at that time, and I was conversing with the vice president of Winchester Ammunition in East Alton, IL at the time. They would not disclose what the powder was, or the charge. I do have several boxes of that ammunition that I got from an agency that was using it, and it is warm.

They were trying to solve the issue of the aluminum jacket shedding from the Silver Tip bullet at the time, and when they finally did solve it, the vice president of the company called me and let me know that it was going to be immediately available. I specified it for our duty ammunition in both 9x19 and .38 Special, and every round fired into a bad guy performed as advertised. It was good ammunition. It's my understanding that they used something besides aluminum in the jackets later on, but those rounds were great that we had. All this occurred in the late 1970's, and our dept. had just over 600 sworn officers at that time.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[USSR]

Sometimes which 158 grain bullet has a bearing on the velocity obtained as well.

More importantly, sometimes which powder you use has a bearing on the velocity obtained.

Don

[35remington]

That was already implied.

Thing is, the developed pressure has a whole bunch to do with it as well.

[USSR]

As long as you use published data that falls within +P pressure limits, no problem. You've been saying you can't get more than 800fps from snubbies, and that's just not true IF YOU USE THE RIGHT POWDER!

Don

[Forrest r]

Forrest r, you seem to be developing some anger oven this thread and I'm not sure why. You are entitled to your opinions but that doesn't mean others are obligated to adopt your opinions.
I'm going to take a bit of exception to part of what you claim. The FBI Load actually does work rather well in 2" revolvers. It may have been designed for 4" barrels but it turned out to be a good performer in the 2" barrel. Its good performance in 2" barrels may have been a fluke but it was a positive one.

Forrest r wrote, ".....By all accounts the fbi/chicago/treasury load that skeeter developed with keith bullets was designed for 4" and longer bbl's. It was never designed for snub nosed revolvers and is an extremely poor performer in +/- 2" bbl'd 38spl's. In post #91 there is a link showing tests with in 2" bbl'd revolvers using the "factory fbi" loads. All 3 sucked!!!"

I disagree with your assertion that the FBI Load is a "poor performer in.... 2" barreled ....38 Specials". To the contrary, the FBI Load has a long track record of good results in snubnosed revolvers. I'm also not certain that the FBI Load was developed by Skeeter [Skelton] although I'm sure he would have experimented with variations of the FBI Load.

In that link you included in post #91 - the tests you refer to actually show the 158 gr LSWCHP loads all performing very well. Personally I think Lucky gunner is in the business of selling ammunition and I'm somewhat suspicious of their data but even their own data seems to contradict what you claim.
Those 158 gr LSWCHP loads all penetrated in the desired range. The lack of a perfectly mushroomed bullet means little. We're not trying to make pretty mushrooms, we're trying to stop someone from harming us. Expansion is just the icing on the cake and perfect mushrooms have little value outside of marketing.

The FBI Load is OLD and it is low tech. That doesn't mean it's bad and should be abandoned.

No anger at all, just get tired of reading about how bad the recoil is or how hard it is to get a load to do more than 800fps. You feel 800fps is good enough, go for it. I choose 950fps myself in 44spl. The misses uses 950fps in a 2" bbl'd 38spl.

[35remington]

It is not at all hard to get a load to do more than 800 fps. It is hard to get it to go much faster than 800 fps at standard pressures in a short barrel.

I am pretty sure I am quite a lot stronger than most women I come across, and my preference for milder recoil in a lightweight revolver for rapid shots delivered to the target in an accurate manner that have adequate penetration for the job does not make me a bit less manly.

I prefer to think of myself as experienced enough to know what works best for me. In expressing that preference I am making a suggestion to others who may be on the fence to give it a try. No more than that.

The fact that I am working with a proven load known to work (FBI or approximate) seems to affirm that thinking.

[USSR]

You say "standard pressures", but when talking about the FBI Load (as we are), we're not talking about standard pressure, but rather +P pressure.

Don

[Petrol & Powder]

SAAMI pressure limits for 38 Special:

Standard pressure 38 Special = max pressure of 17,000 psi

+P pressure 38 Special = max pressure of 20,000 psi

The "FBI Load" is a +P cartridge, specifically it is a 158 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point [LSWCHP] bullet loaded in a casing to achieve +P pressures.

It is my belief that when fired from a 2" revolver barrel it is impossible to get a 158 grain LSWC to 900 fps if the pressures are within Standard (17,000 psi) 38 Special ranges.

I believe that it is highly unlikely that you can push a 158 grain LSWC beyond 900 fps from a 2" revolver barrel even when you use +P (20,000 psi) pressures.

Can you push a 158 grain LSWC faster than 900 fps out of a 2" revolver barrel ? The answer is yes but I think you will be over SAAMI limits for the +P 38 Special.

Notice the parameters listed above. 900 fps (not 800 fps), 2" barrel (not 2.5"), 158 grain projectile (not 148 or 135 or 110gr). Also note the different SAAMI limits (Standard and +P)

[35remington]

SR, in a practical sense, in a Plus P rated revolver short barreled of lightweight configuration, the FBI load does 820 fps or so or in that vicinity depending upon who makes it in factory loads. The recoil is not appreciably different than upper end standard pressure handloads that you can assemble.

The OP essentially asked about duplicating the FBI load with a handload. This does not require 950 fps or 900 fps, but rather around the 820 mentioned. A swaged HP running 900-950 fps is not the FBI load or its near duplicate but rather something quite different.

It should not be surprising that I suggested how to duplicate what he asked about duplicating rather than suggesting something considerably different.

[USSR]

The "FBI Load" is a +P cartridge, specifically it is a 158 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point [LSWCHP] bullet loaded in a casing to achieve +P pressures.

It is my belief that when fired from a 2" revolver barrel it is impossible to get a 158 grain LSWC to 900 fps if the pressures are within Standard (17,000 psi) 38 Special ranges.



????? Since you just laid out the description of the FBI Load, and the title of this thread is "38 spl FBI Load", of what consequence is what velocity a standard .38 Special load capable of? Since we're talking about a 2" barrel in regards to the FBI Load, here is what a friend of mine gets with his using the same load data for which I get 945fps with my 2.5" barrel:

Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
7.0gr HS-6
COL 1.475"
4" M686 ---- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV --- 888.9
955.1 --- H --- 897.1
905.4 --- L ---- 876.6
49.7 ---- ES --- 20.5
20.7 ---- SD ---- 7.9
17.0 ---- AD ---- 5.9

Not quite 900fps, but a darn sight better than 800fps.

Don

[Petrol & Powder]

USSR wrote, ".....Since you just laid out the description of the FBI Load, and the title of this thread is "38 spl FBI Load", of what consequence is what velocity a standard .38 Special load capable of?..."

AND I will answer: Because people on this thread are ALL over the map with Standard Pressure and +P, Barrel lengths from 1 7/8" to 6", bullet weights from 110 to 200 grains and a few other variables.

So that is why I narrowed down what we are talking about on this thread.

And by the way, your data reinforces what I've been saying the entire time - a 158 gr projectile and a 2" barrel is unlikely to meet or exceed 900 fps while remaining within SAAMI specs for +P 38 Special loads. Your above post with an average velocity of 888 fps in a 2" barreled revolver is right in line with what I and others have been saying during this entire discussion.

[USSR]

Your above post with an average velocity of 888 fps in a 2" barreled revolver is right in line with what I and others have been saying during this entire discussion.

Um, "...I never got anywhere close to 900 fps out of a 2" barrel, even with +P pressures." Oh, and one thing you should know, published load data lists 7.2gr of HS-6 as maximum for +P load data. Ya think we might be able to pick up 12 more fps with 0.2gr more powder?:bigsmyl2:

Don

[Petrol & Powder]

We are saying the SAME thing!!!!!

[35remington]

I guess the point I was making, stated explicitly again, was I am suggesting loads that do about what the FBI load does, as requested.

The “of what consequence is what a standard pressure load is capable of” is answered by stating that practice can be had that familiarizes the user with about what the FBI load feels like in terms of recoil without putting much strain on the gun. By running it at standard pressures. This allows higher volume shooting.

Practice all you want with standard pressure loads you assemble at low cost yourself, then load the real thing from the factory in the gun.

Cheap, simple, easy on the gun, and at the end of the day realistic practice has been accomplished. If God forbid something occurs when you will need it....your desired FBI load with its proven track record and “blessed by the lawyers” factory manufacture is carried for the time of need.

Win win, right? To my way of thinking, it is.

[35remington]

And yes, you and P and P are talking about the same thing.

[RED BEAR]

if i am wrong aboutusing factory ammo for fear of proscution then i am happy to admit it.

[35remington]

You won’t come to any harm for believing that. Trouble is there is no evidence that disbelieving it is harmful either. The “case files” supposedly proving this point are questionable to say the least.

You will not get sued for using handloads because they make you look bloodthirsty. The originator of that claim does not attempt to go there anymore himself, so you can let that go too.

[Petrol & Powder]

if i am wrong aboutusing factory ammo for fear of proscution then i am happy to admit it.

OK, that horse has been beat to death a thousand times over.

Let's not go down that path again.

In a nutshell:

There are criminal cases

And

There are civil cases.

Under criminal law, it is either a justified use of force or it isn't. The type of ammo isn't a factor. The STATE will prosecute you or the STATE will not prosecute you. That prosecution depends on a lot of things but the type of ammo will probably not be a factor.

In a civil suit, the plaintiff's attorney may bring up the issue of ammunition. However, the fact that the plaintiff attempts to make something an issue doesn't mean that it is a valid issue. So again, probably not something that needs to generate a lot of concern.

People seem to have a hard time understanding the difference between criminal law and civil law.
Criminal = the state vs. you. The state can put you in prison.
Civil = you vs. someone else. The other guy can only take money from you.

If you use deadly force there could be two trials - The state vs. you (criminal) AND the person you shot vs. you (civil)

This topic really isn't worth any more ink or time.

[texasnative46]

ReloaderFred,

That's OK. = My query was simply IDLE CURIOSITY.

As for me (in a "snubbie"), I'll stick to a "heavy for caliber" lead boolit at moderate velocity, as the old .38 Super Police 200grain load was.
(When I was a LEO in south LA, that load was "department issue" & it worked FINE in our Colt' & S&W snub-nose revolvers.)

yours, tex

[Mytmousemalibu]

OK, that horse has been beat to death a thousand times over.

Let's not go down that path again.

In a nutshell:

There are criminal cases

And

There are civil cases.

Under criminal law, it is either a justified use of force or it isn't. The type of ammo isn't a factor. The STATE will prosecute you or the STATE will not prosecute you. That prosecution depends on a lot of things but the type of ammo will probably not be a factor.

In a civil suit, the plaintiff's attorney may bring up the issue of ammunition. However, the fact that the plaintiff attempts to make something an issue doesn't mean that it is a valid issue. So again, probably not something that needs to generate a lot of concern.

People seem to have a hard time understanding the difference between criminal law and civil law.
Criminal = the state vs. you. The state can put you in prison.
Civil = you vs. someone else. The other guy can only take money from you.

If you use deadly force there could be two trials - The state vs. you (criminal) AND the person you shot vs. you (civil)

This topic really isn't worth any more ink or time.

Something worth adding here... Check your state's laws... In Kansas at least and I believe most states, if you are being challenged under criminal law and found NOT GUILTY, then you are released from prosecution from a civil lawsuit. You are found not liable and thus cannot be tried civilly. On the converse, if you are found criminally guilty then you are subject to civil suit as well.

I personally think the whole "reloaded defense ammo" wives tale is just that and dosen't hold water unless a person was to do something really stupid. Like filling a hollow point cavity with ricin or something crazy like that. It could be used against you if you used deadly force without real justification. If I have to legitimately need to pull out a firearm and use it, then it will dang sure be justified. And at that point, i don't care if i had a 22 short or a mountain gun, I need it and ammo factory or reload is a moot point. Anyone that has intention of using firearms for self defense better know the distinction of a good or bad shoot.

My daily carry, a S&W 442, has a cylinder full of my handload. Granted it exactly matches the OEM loading with exception of charge weight, my load is hotter. Good luck determining that from my fired brass.

[sniper]

This is so far off subject I hesitate to bring it up but.... back in the day upside down full wad cutters were tried.. this (for me) was a failure with the hollow base either plugging up (making a solid) or folding over which made for erratic performance or... shattering. lazs

Your experience is similar to mine "back in the day", except at 25 yards, my HBWCs mounted backwards over ~5 gr Unique were mostly traveling sideways by the time they reached 25 yards.:shock: For obvious reasons, I haven't done a lot with them after I shot up what I had. Although, 148 gr. traveling sideways seems like it would be a good deterrent at shorter ranges. Now I am wondering if maybe a full wadcutter @ 800-900 fps might be a viable Target/SD round.

[Petrol & Powder]

Something worth adding here... Check your state's laws... In Kansas at least and I believe most states, if you are being challenged under criminal law and found NOT GUILTY, then you are released from persecution from a civil lawsuit. You are found not liable and thus cannot be tried civilly. On the converse, if you are found criminally guilty then you are subject to civil suit as well.

I personally think the whole "reloaded defense ammo" wives tale is just that and dosen't hold water unless a person was to do something really stupid. Like filling a hollow point cavity with ricin or something crazy like that. It could be used against you if you used deadly force without real justification. If I have to legitimately need to pull out a firearm and use it, then it will dang sure be justified. And at that point, i don't care if i had a 22 short or a mountain gun, I need it and ammo factory or reload is a moot point. Anyone that has intention of using firearms for self defense better know the distinction of a good or bad shoot.

My daily carry, a S&W 442, has a cylinder full of my handload. Granted it exactly matches the OEM loading with exception of charge weight, my load is hotter. Good luck determining that from my fired brass.


Prosecution = conducting a legal proceeding against someone.

Persecution = hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.


Nothing can stop someone from suing you. NOTHING ! A law suit may be very short lived if there are laws to shield someone engaged in lawful self-defense but that never prevents someone from filing a suit and initiating the civil case. There will always be a slimy attorney that will file a lawsuit even when that lawsuit stands zero chance of moving forward.

THERE'S A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING SUED AND BEING SUCCESSFULLY SUED.

If you use deadly force, expect to get sued. Even if your state has laws to prevent those types of suits from being successful - nothing stops someone from starting those suits.

[Char-Gar]

Something worth adding here... Check your state's laws... In Kansas at least and I believe most states, if you are being challenged under criminal law and found NOT GUILTY, then you are released from persecution from a civil lawsuit. You are found not liable and thus cannot be tried civilly. On the converse, if you are found criminally guilty then you are subject to civil suit as well.

I personally think the whole "reloaded defense ammo" wives tale is just that and dosen't hold water unless a person was to do something really stupid. Like filling a hollow point cavity with ricin or something crazy like that. It could be used against you if you used deadly force without real justification. If I have to legitimately need to pull out a firearm and use it, then it will dang sure be justified. And at that point, i don't care if i had a 22 short or a mountain gun, I need it and ammo factory or reload is a moot point. Anyone that has intention of using firearms for self defense better know the distinction of a good or bad shoot.

My daily carry, a S&W 442, has a cylinder full of my handload. Granted it exactly matches the OEM loading with exception of charge weight, my load is hotter. Good luck determining that from my fired brass.

The Texas "Castle Law" exempts people from civil liability in shootings that fall under that law. This is to say that a legal finding of a Castle Law shooting will be a bar to litigation. However, all other shooting are exposed to civil liability.

In Texas, I don't see the use of handloaded ammo to be a factor in civil litigation regarding a shooting. There are several legal components of such a law suit, but negligence is the key factor. Was the shooter negligent in shooting the plaintiff. The ammo should not be a consideration in whether or not the shooting was negligence.

I will just leave it at that and forgo the long lecture on Tort law.

[USSR]

I carry what I shoot, and I shoot what I carry. That would be my handloads. By some of your reasoning, the lawyers would have a field day with me since I cast my own bullets and am an NRA Certified Reloading Instructor.:roll:

Don

[Mytmousemalibu]

Prosecution = conducting a legal proceeding against someone.

Persecution = hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs

Sometimes auto correct is your friend, sometimes your foe!

[Mytmousemalibu]

The Texas "Castle Law" exempts people from civil liability in shootings that fall under that law. This is to say that a legal finding of a Castle Law shooting will be a bar to litigation. However, all other shooting are exposed to civil liability.

In Texas, I don't see the use of handloaded ammo to be a factor in civil litigation regarding a shooting. There are several legal components of such a law suit, but negligence is the key factor. Was the shooter negligent in shooting the plaintiff. The ammo should not be a consideration in whether or not the shooting was negligence.

I will just leave it at that and forgo the long lecture on Tort law.


The Texas "Castle Law" exempts people from civil liability in shootings that fall under that law. This is to say that a legal finding of a Castle Law shooting will be a bar to litigation. However, all other shooting are exposed to civil liability.

In Texas, I don't see the use of handloaded ammo to be a factor in civil litigation regarding a shooting. There are several legal components of such a law suit, but negligence is the key factor. Was the shooter negligent in shooting the plaintiff. The ammo should not be a consideration in whether or not the shooting was negligence.

I will just leave it at that and forgo the long lecture on Tort law.

Kansas is the same. Castle law and stand your ground applies here. That aside, we both and USSR seem to be of the same mindset when it comes to handloads and self defense.

But I digress... I love reading through threads about the famed FBI load, Super Police load, etc. I find this kind of stuff very interesting. I love the backstories and info on police issue ammo like ReloaderFred and Outpost75 have to tell. Gold stuff guys!

[RED BEAR]

i really did not mean to get this going this far. but i have been told this by instructors firearms dealers even one lawyer. i to practice with what i carry i go to great lengths to duplicate the factory ammo i am carring. if wife doesn't like ammo she uses i will duplicate other factory loads to give her the chance to try different loads without the expence of buying all of them. then let her try the ones she liked best. if you feel more comfortable carrying reloads then by all means go for it. do what ever you think is best for you.

[Gunslinger1911]

Well, I started this fur ball (fun and informative), I'll chime in on this detour (not a problem, fits right in with the original question).
I see it as a CYA thing, if you don't use hand loads for SD then you can't be sued for doing it. Cops use factory ammo.
This would be my dad's thought process - he was a pilot in the Army Air Corps (yea, looooong time ago), he survived, figured he was on borrowed time the rest of his life, most OC man you would EVER meet !
I'm my fathers son...... most of the time, lol. I carry my hand loads, Can't get the Speer "Flying Ashtray" any more - my MiHec mould throws a pretty good imitation.

From my research back in the day, no one has ever been sued for a "good shoot" for using hand loads.

Admittedly, no one that we know of has packed plutonium or sarin in a hollow point - that might come back to bite you.
Mas Ayoob - (shill, dweeb, master; take your pick) - tech witness in hundreds of cases, says same.
Marshall and Sanow (the original morgue monsters), same thing.
By the way, Anybody remember who was called the "Jello Junky" for their gelatin testing ?

So, neat thing about America, we have choices; do your research, weigh your options, do what's best for you.

I carry a .45 Officers ACP, my version of the flying ashtray. I shoot it a LOT. I'm gonna rue the day I wear that sucker out and have to build a new one (oh, did we get into carrying a "custom" version of a factory firearm? ). Oh, ****; here we go, off on another tangent. haha

As I said, do the research, weigh your options, do what's best for YOU.

[FergusonTO35]

In the links I posted previously, we see that not all factory FBI loads are the same out of a short barrel. The Winchester load is about 100 fps slower than the Remington, and Federal falls in the middle. They all offer similar performance in that much of the energy is used to turn the hollow point into basically a full wadcutter, which then produces similar performance to the sleepy target round. I'm gonna stick with my Lyman wadcutters!

[Outpost75]

Back when the government was buying the loads, the specifications required testing in the 4-inch vented test barrel.

Current data on the Winchester web site shows 1050 fps testing from a 7.1" solid test barrel.

219374

[Larry Gibson]

I duplicate original Winchester 38 SPL LSWCHP +P velocity and pressure (actually measured via an Oehler M43) using soft cast 358477s or 358156HPs in Winchester cases with WSP primers and 5.5 gr of Unique. The measured psi MAP of that load is just under the SAAMI MAP for 38 SPL +P. That 5.5 gr Unique load runs 975 fps out of my 4" M15 and just under 900 fps out of my 2 1/2" M19 with the 150 gr cast bullets.

219379

[FergusonTO35]

Cool, will have to remember that. What kind of primers are you using? Primer brand can make a huge difference in this cartridge. Federal is the best I've ever tried but they are only seen on the side of milk cartons around here.

[Jtarm]

The current factory offerings are reputedly watered down from the original.

Buffalo Bore sells one that supposedly matches the original, but at over $1 per round, I’m not gonna find out.

[35remington]

The 1.875” Smiths do show some velocity loss over the 2.5” guns, as would be expected. I would suppose based on my own use of Unique that 860 fps or in that vicinity would be top end Plus P from the short Smith barrels using a 158 SWC.

[FergusonTO35]

Accurate #5 is an excellent powder that often gets overlooked. 6.3 grains will squirt out a 158 grain slug at 920 fps from my 4" S&W 10-5, that is a published +P load.

[Outpost75]

Accurate #5 is an excellent powder that often gets overlooked. 6.3 grains will squirt out a 158 grain slug at 920 fps from my 4" S&W 10-5, that is a published +P load.

5 grains of AutoComp is also a published +P load in .38 Special with 158 lead SWC.

[USSR]

What kind of primers are you using? Primer brand can make a huge difference in this cartridge.

Powder used will determine the primer to use. I have developed the FBI Load using 3 different powders: Unique, AA#5, and HS-6. HS-6 pretty much requires a magnum primer, the other 2 not.

Don

[Low Budget Shooter]

FBI Load threads are always my favorite. Casting and loading my homemade FBI Load is also my favorite part of reloading.

[FergusonTO35]

Sounds good. I am trying to switch all my Bullseye .38 Special loads over to Hodgdon powders as they are alot less sensitive to primer brand. Bullseye and Federal primers are a great combination but I lost hope a long time ago of ever having a regular supply of the latter again.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've loaded a bazillon 38 Special rounds (maybe 1.5 bazillon :) ) and for many years, ww231 [AKA HP-38] was my powder of choice. That selection of powder was influenced in my early reloading days by the greater local availability of ww231. I had other powders on the shelf in those early days, including Bullseye but 231 was my "go-to" 38 Special powder for decades.
The 38 Special casing is relatively large and there are a lot of powders that can be made to work in that casing, some better than others. During the powder shortage I went looking for alternatives to ww231; I think a lot of us did that. When the shortage was over, I decided to replace 231 with Bullseye as my "go-to" 38 Special powder for standard loads and I'm happy to return to the old stand-by of Bullseye. However, for +P loadings in the "FBI Load" range, there are some other choices.

For the +P loadings with 158-160 grain cast bullets, CFE Pistol works well. Tazman helped me with that powder (thanks!) and as a bonus, CFE Pistol meters well. CFE didn't exist back when I was doing my short barrel revolver load testing, so I can't vouch for the measured velocity claims but others have verified Hodgdon's data in longer barrels.

WW231 still stands out as a good powder at +P velocities in the 38 Special and there lots of other powders that will get the job done in that big 38 casing. If you're trying to squeeze as much velocity as possible out of your duplicate short barrel "FBI Load" - AA#5 worked well for me as did Unique. I don't trust Unique in an automated powder measure on a progressive press when I'm operating near maximum charge weights, so Unique was reserved for other projects.

It has been said many times before and it is still true, the 38 Special is a GREAT cartridge.

[FergusonTO35]

+1 to everything you said. Accurate #5 is a great powder for strong .38's and meters superbly. All my loads are in the low 800's nowadys so Bullseye works just fine.

[Outpost75]

Bullseye will work at +P velocities if you stick to pressure tested loads in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition (2010) on p.256 and pay attention to overall cartridge length. 160-grain #358311 at 1.55" OAL 4.1 grains of Bullseye 936 fps @ 18,300cup in 4" vented test barrel.

Also 155- grain #358156 at 1.46" OAL, 4.4 grs. Bullseye for 915 fps @ 18,100 cup.

[FergusonTO35]

I often wonder about the pressure readings in the Lyman manual. For boolits in the 150-162 grain range, maximum charges are all over the place. I wonder if some of the data is alot older, from back when Bullseye was really fast.

[fecmech]

I wonder if some of the data is alot older, from back when Bullseye was really fast. ...
Bullseye hasn't changed a bit. A fellow gave me a number of cans a few years back with some from every decade going back to the 50's. I loaded and chrono'd the same load from every can and results were identical.

[dubber123]

Bullseye hasn't changed a bit. A fellow gave me a number of cans a few years back with some from every decade going back to the 50's. I loaded and chrono'd the same load from every can and results were identical.

Agreed.. and if I am not mistaken, the loads quoted in post #166 are only about 1K over standard pressure. If run up to ACTUAL +P pressures, I bet they are a bit speedier. My "FBI" loads use Bullseye, and are indeed speedier, but have not been pressure tested.

[Gunslinger1911]

OP here, wow you guys know how to keep a thread alive !

Tested a load last weekend, 6.5g HS-6 (6.7 max), 150g dead soft swc hp - powder coated, plain base gas check and lubed when sized (.358).
We got 870 - 890 f/s out of the Detective Special.
I can live with that.
Daughter had some Pachmyer Compac's on it, so very nice to shoot.

I'm remembering powder coating has very low friction, maybe a factor in getting pretty close to my goal with not a max load ?

Lotta good info and history in the back pages, keep it coming !

[FergusonTO35]

Bagged an elusive quarry today. First time I've seen it in the wild for three years:

219892

[Livin_cincy]

Bagged an elusive quarry today. First time I've seen it in the wild for three years:

219892

That is fake... I have seen that same backdrop on Pics from Area 51. <wink>

[Mr_Sheesh]

What did you use to bag it? What bait, what sort of trap or weapon? :)

[35remington]

The loads quoted in post 166 are expressed in copper units, and do not directly translate to psi, so the assumption that there is “leeway”to increase them may very likely be unfounded.

[FergusonTO35]

That is fake... I have seen that same backdrop on Pics from Area 51. <wink>

I have scheduled you for a visit with the Men in Black...

[FergusonTO35]

What did you use to bag it? What bait, what sort of trap or weapon? :)

Sportman's Warehouse in Lexington is the only habitat of this creature that I am aware of. I saw boxes of Federal primers on the shelf but I couldn't tell what kind they were. I feigned interest in the powder selection to get close enough to see what types were there. I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me when I saw "small pistol primers". I actually read it a few times to make sure it was correct. Then, I tucked it under my arm and hightailed to the check out lane like I had just caught an interception to win the Super Bowl.

[USSR]

Note: Do not use Bullseye if you want a good FBI Load. You will reach the +P pressure limit well before you get to a decent velocity (900fps from a snubbie). Use a powder in the burn rate range of AA#5 and HS-6. Just MHO.

Don

[FergusonTO35]

The late model FBI loads have a published velocity of 850 fps from a 4" barrel. 3.8 grains Bullseye will get you there and is listed as a strong standard pressure load in my Lyman manual. Now 900 fps in a snub should translate to 1000 out of a 4" so yeah, Bullseye is not going to work there.

[35remington]

Since the FBI load does not get you anywhere near 900 fps from short barrels, but rather nearer 800 fps, the truth of the matter is Bullseye is still capable of duplicating what the FBI load does from any length barrel.

Will Bullseye make an “FBI”equivalent load? Absolutely. Suggestions it cannot are incorrect. It will make equivalent velocity within +P pressure limits.

[FergusonTO35]

Yes, exactly. I have always found that it is no problem to roll your own FBI loads that duplicate the performance of factory while staying within the standard pressure zone.

[Larry Gibson]

with 150 - 158 gr bullets 820 - 850 fps was considered "standard" velocity back in the day. Original Winchester and Federal "FBI 150 LSWDHP +Ps were originally 950+ fps from a 4" barrel and just under the SAAMI MAP for pressure.

Bullseye will not get you to true +P velocity and remain at or under SAAMI +P pressure MAP with 150 gr cast bullets. In the 38 SPL with 150 gr cast bullets 5.5 gr Unique will be right under the SAAMI MAP and get you 950 fps out of a 4" barreled revolver and just under 900 out of 2 - 2.5" barreled revolvers.

[FergusonTO35]

Aaahh, I see. So, today's FBI loads are slower than those of the past.

[35remington]

Some are. I have occasionally clocked some lots as fast at 850 or so from shortie (1 7/8) Smiths depending upon brand and lot.

However, the arguable part is whether that specific velocity on the higher end of the range made the FBI load’s fame and fortune from short barrels. Given the inherent variation of velocity due to powder position shifts in the 38 case, and given the high likelihood the powder is bunched up in the front of the case or near it when the gun is drawn for the first shot, it is likely the bullet sails out of short barrels somewhat slower than that.

So, one must ask oneself just what is being duplicated, and under what conditions to attempt to accurately answer the question. A better guess these days is the bullet is going no faster than 800 odd fps from short barrels of Smith persuasion when actually employed.

This is consonant with the factory rating when subtraction from velocity due to the short barrel is factored in, so no real surprise there.

[USSR]

A better guess these days is the bullet is going no faster than 800 odd fps from short barrels of Smith persuasion when actually employed.


Not if you're using the right powder, 35remington, which is what we have been saying. With small amounts of fast powder, yes. With a medium burn rate powder you can match the "original" load velocity of the FBI Load. You should try it.

Don

[Outpost75]

What also must be considered is the effect of cylinder gap. In standard pressure lead bullet .38 Special the normal and expected Delta-V is 10 fps for each 0.001" difference in cylinder gap from Mean Assembly Tolerance. A 2" gun set up to minimum specs of pass 0.003"/hold 0.004" will produce higher velocity than a 4" gun having Customer Service Max. cylinder gap of pass 0.008"/hold 0.009". The difference may be greater with +P depending upon the powder used for the particular loading.

It is not unusual to find service guns in the field which have been shot alot with cylinder gaps as large as 0.010"!

[lightload]

I agree with Larry about 5.5 grs Unique and 150 grain cast bullet.

[35remington]

USSR, somehow you missed the part where I was talking about the FBI load, which is in factory form. I spoke of how to duplicate it over the entire range of which it is chronographed from short barrels, which is from 800-850 fps. That covers both new and old iterations.

You also missed the part where I suggested getting the higher velocities and with which powder it could be attained. It is at this point you may wish to reread what I actually posted. Try starting at post 41 and going from there. At no time have I found any lot of factory FBI load exceeding 850 fps, even the rare or old lots, in short 1 7/8 Smith barrels.

Tried it, done it, and got the T shirt.

The quote of mine you printed in post 184 is the way to bet with current or even past factory loads given the practical realities of lot variation and powder position in the 38 case.

[Petrol & Powder]

I wrote this way back in post #67 and I stand by it:

"It has been many years since I tested 158 grain 38 Special loads over a chronograph but I never got anywhere close to 900 fps out of a 2" barrel, even with +P pressures. In a 4" barrel with +P pressures it's easy to get 158 grain bullets to 900 fps.

I'm not going to say that 900 fps with a 158 grain bullet is impossible from a 2" barrel while remaining under 20K psi but I will say that I'm extremely skeptical of those claims."

One of the issues with this somewhat contentious, but civil, thread; is the number of variables we are speaking about.
Barrel length, bullet weight, pressures and as Outpost75 pointed out - even cylinder gap are just some of the factors.

I've looked for my old notebooks and I cannot find them. So this is from memory.

Using 1 7/8" J-frames, 2" K-frames and a few other similar guns with barrels at or under 2.25" ; I never got over 900fps. In fact, I don't recall even getting close to 900fps. In addition to handloads that attempted to duplicate the "FBI Load" with several different powders, I also tested factory cartridges that fit the "FBI Load" parameters.

You must be comparing apples to apples. I think some contention comes from variables unintentionally entering into the discussion. 900+fps is entirely possible within SAAMI specs for 38 +P , IF we are talking about longer barrels or lighter bullets.

However, if we set the parameters at:
A 2" barreled revolver
A lead bullet at 158 grain +/- 1 grain
Maximum pressures at or below 20K psi
Then the results will be velocities less than 900 fps.

[FergusonTO35]

Barrel to cylinder gap can make a huge difference. I have a Rossi 461 with 3" tube, very nice little revolver. It had a yawning .010 gap form the factory and was making less velocity than my S&W 637 with stumpy 1-7/8" barrel. I sent it back to Rossi expecting they would just say it was within spec. To my surprise and delight they actually rebarreled it for me, now has a nice .003.

[Forrest r]

The 1972 (the year the fbi adopted the "158gr lead hp/38spl p+ ammo" The law enforcement handgun digest (of 1972) on page #188 lists:
w38spd ammo (winchester's 158gr lead hp 38spl p+ ammo) velocity/1014fps from a 4" test bbl.


Buffalo bore sells a 38spl 158gr lead hp sd ammo that has no "special" warnings about over pressure that gets +/- 1000fps (20a ammo).
Pearce did his own testing and found not only did the buffalo bore do 1000fps. He was able to duplicate that load while staying in saami specs for max pressure/20,000psi 38spl p+ pressure. Both of the company's listed above either sell the load data or the ammo.

What pearce and bb have in common is the bullet being used itself. That's called a clue.

10 pages later and no one has really touched on what actually works and why. Myself I only use 38spl's & 9mm's for plinking or target work. Never did like or use either caliber for pocket carry/sd. The misses wanted a snubnosed 38spl for cc so I picked 1 up and did a bunch of testing. I do have a little experience with snubnosed revolvers having owned a s&w model 60 (357) in the past and having owned 44spl bulldogs since the 80's.

It's all about the bullet. After you get away from the cylinder gap, cylinder holes, position of the powder, type of powder, etc. The biggest factor is the bullet itself. The 2nd biggest factor is the alloy of the bullet.

[Forrest r]

Some of the bullets I used to test 2" bbl'd 38spl p+ ammo.
https://i.imgur.com/vSAh3bs.jpg

What winchester used in their w38spd ammo
https://i.imgur.com/KNwvR1D.jpg

I also tested these 3 hollow based bullets.
https://i.imgur.com/FJzHn6w.jpg

At the end of the day I tested:
h&g #51 hpswc 150gr
358439 hpswc 158gr
cramer hunter hpfn 158gr
cramer #26 hpswc 158gr
358156 hpgcswc 150gr
Mihec 640 hpfn 158gr
Mihec hbwc turned backwards 148gr
home swaged jacketed hp 150gr
358431 hbswc 158gr
raphine hbfn 150gr

I tested those 10 bullets using 6bhn & 10bhn alloys
I tested the 9 lead bullets with pc and traditional lubes

The ww "fbi" bullet used a soft 6/7bhn swaged hpswc that had a hollow base.
BB & Pearce used a 6bhn "gas checked" hpswc

That's called a clue, namely soft lead and bases that seal extremely well.

[Petrol & Powder]

Again, we are STILL introducing variables.

1014 fps from a 4" test (possibly unvented) barrel is not the same thing as a 2" revolver barrel with a barrel to cylinder gap.

A 2" snubnose 38 Special revolver is no powerhouse (no handgun is) but with the 158 gr, +P LSWCHP, it has a very good track record in the real world. Are there handguns with better track records? Yep ! but that's not what we are talking about.

Forrest r ; you are absolutely correct that it is the bullet that does the work. In the self-defense arena, terminal performance is what we are after. We want a projectile that will reliably stop the fight in the real world.
Handguns in general are poor tools to stop a human attacker but are often the only practical tool available. Because handguns are poor tools to stop humans, we attempt to stack the odds as much as possible in our own favor.

We are looking for a projectile that will reliably penetrate deep enough to reach something important enough to stop the fight. (that's usually a major blood vessel, some part of the central nervous system or big load carrying bones). After reaching that vital structure, we want that projectile to be capable of damaging that structure enough to rapidly incapacitate the attacker. That's a tall order for ANY handgun round in the real world and a very tall order for a snubnose revolver. However, since I can't walk around all day with a 12 gauge pump action shotgun in my hands, a smaller weapon is often the only choice.

IF the criteria is a 2" DA revolver chambered in 38 Special +P, then the only choice left over is, "what TYPE of 38 Special +P cartridge" to put in that 2" snubnose?

Would a .357 Magnum be better? SURE ! but we've already decided that we are talking about 38 Special.
Would a 4" 44 magnum be better? ABSOLUTELY, but that's not what we are talking about either.

[Forrest r]

It the littlest things that make huge changes when it comes to high pressure loads coupled with short bbl's. I used a pretty good mix of bullets to test with. Along with testing with 3 different lubes and 2 different alloys.

The lube didn't have any real affect of the velocities.

The alloy did have an affect on the velocities. The soft 6/7bhn alloy had 10+fps more velocity then the 10bhn alloy. While 10fps isn't much, the softer alloys went hand in hand with the larger/longer bottom drive banded or gc'd bullet bases.

The bullet bases where the "huge" difference maker in velocity. The same 4 bullets kept having the highest velocities regardless of the powders being used. Those bullets were:
cramer #26
mihec hbwc turned backwards
358156 gc bullet
home swaged jacketed bullet.

https://i.imgur.com/vlZBK9y.jpg

What those 4 bullets have in common is their ability to seal the cylinders/bbl quickly. Either with the large bottom drive bands or with a gc or with the long body of the jacket.

The bullets with multiple small drive bands or large middle drive bands performed the worst. The 2 hb bullets didn't do very well and the mihec 640 did better than the multiple & large middle drive banded bullets. The mihec 640 also did better than the hb bullets but because of it's small base it couldn't keep up with the 4 bullets pictured above.

[Forrest r]

Real world results:

Bullseye powder has been brought up in this thread. I love bullseye powder!!! It's the 1st powder I grabbed to test the 38spl p+ loads. I knew bullseye was worthless when trying to get any real p+ velocity out of a 38spl case. But it's a good choice for showing which bullets have weak bases. So I loaded up test loads with the 10 different bullets listed in the above posts and used 4.4gr of bullseye for the test load.

At the end of the day the 4 bullets pictured above averaged in the +/- 820fps range with that 4.4gr load of bullseye.
The multiple and large middle drive banded bullets were in the +/- 800fps range.
The hb bullets were in the +/- 780fps range.

Same load, same bullet weight (+/-10gr), same alloy, same lube, etc.

2 lead hpswc's cast from the same alloy and pc'd in the same batch at the same time. 4.4gr bullseye
cramer #26 ='s 821fps
358439 ='s 792fps

I've retested this several times. 30fps difference by simply using a different bullet. The h&g #51 with the small base did 784fps. That's 35fps+ difference between the 2 bullets.

Needless to say I've sold the h&g @51 and the lyman 358439 molds.

The lyman 358156 on the other had did the best with the 4.4gr load @ 822fps. I do have 3 different 358156 molds that have 3 different hp pins that range from short to long. The short pins does extremely well and I'll probably end up selling the other 2 off.

Unique has also been mentioned in this thread. I used 5.5gr of uniques to test all 10 bullets with. The top 4 performing bullets were all right at 850fps. The rest were in the 820fps range. Again around 30fps difference with a simple bullet swap.

When I switched to 2400 & power pistol the difference in the bullet designs really showed up. There was 40fps to 50fps difference between the top design/performing bullets and the bullets with hb's, multiple drive bands & large middle drive bands.

Is the cylinder gap important???
Absolutely!!!

Does the alloy affect the fps???
Absolutely!!!

Bullet design is king!!!

WW, pearce,BB all used a soft bullet. ww used a hb bullet & bb/pearce used a gc'd bullet. While the 358156 isn't the same bullet that bb/pearce used, it's a good place to start.

I did all my testing with a 2" bbl'd charter arms undercover that has a 4/1000th's cylinder gap. All bullets are sized to .358".

I carried over what I learned from the snubnosed 38spl p+ loads/bullet designs and did a bunch of testing in different firearms chambered in 357 with bbbl's ranging from 3"/4"/6"/8"/10". The results mirrored the 38spl p+ findings. 50fps really didn't mean much when the bullets are doing 1400fps+. When their doing 950fps compared to 900fps, the +/- 50fps is huge.

[Petrol & Powder]

Forrest r, would it be fair to say that in a 2" revolver with a 158 grain bullet and within SAAMI +P pressure limits regardless of: alloy, coating/lube/jacket, base design or powder - None of the bullets exceeded 900 fps?

[Forrest r]

Why the hb bullets didn't perform well in the 38spl p+ tests:

The simple answer, wrong hb design.

I went thru the same thing with the 429422 hb bullet. The round pin makes the bullets base to thin at the top of the bottom drive band/bottom of the lube groove intersection. When I re-designed the hb pin I picked up 50+fps in a snubnosed 44spl.
https://i.imgur.com/rVx5uvQ.jpg

Did a similar hb pin design for a lyman 35870 hb mold. Accuracy and velocity improved, it's now my 50yd 9mm bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/77VoPsa.jpg

The raphine hb mold has an extremely long conical shaped pin. I could get 20fps/30fps more velocity out of that bullet by going to a 14bhn/15bhn bullet.

I need to re-design a hb pin for that lyman 358431 mold. I'd get 50fps more out of it in the snubnosed 38spl if I did.

Whatever testing you do, powder/bullets, it doesn't matter. Find what performs the best bullet/alloy wise. Then change powders.

800fps in a snubnosed (2" bbl) 38spl is a joke. 850fps can be done with most bullet designs. 900fps you need a god bullet design. 950fps you need a good bullet design and a good powder.

Myself, I never wanted a 1000fps/158gr load in the snubnosed 38spl. 950fps was good enough for the fbi and the load/firearm is for the misses after all. So I stopped working up loads/bullets when I hit 950fps (+/-10fps) with any of those 4 main bullets that performed the best in any/all of the 38spl p+ testing.

Now the snubnosed 44spl that I carry, that's another ball game.
The fbi had a hb bullet. BB/pearce had a 1000fps sd load for the snubnosed 38spl revolvers. I have a 1000fps hb swc hp for the snubnosed 44spl revolver.
https://i.imgur.com/fo57jjU.jpg

[Forrest r]

Forrest r, would it be fair to say that in a 2" revolver with a 158 grain bullet and within SAAMI +P pressure limits regardless of: alloy, coating/lube/jacket, base design or powder - None of the bullets exceeded 900 fps?

No sir.

I quit @ 950fps. The 358156 and the home swaged jacketed bullets gave me 950fps +/- with 6.2gr of power pistol. Never did get the 1000fps pearce claimed to get. But then again pearce chose extremely well when picking that ruger lcr for his testing.

I can easily see the ruger vs charter arms turning into a 50fps loose in velocity for me/charter arms.

[Forrest r]

Keep in mind that out of 10 different common/popular bullets that casters use/make. Only 1 cast bullet got me to the 950fps range (358156). The cramer #26 was close and the mihec 148gr hbwc turned backwards started to fall off.

The home swaged jacketed bullet did extremely well. But every brass/swaged bullet I've made has always had excellent velocities for the weight/caliber. A 225gr home swaged brass bullet in a standard 1911/5" bbl/45acp with a full house load of power pistol.
https://i.imgur.com/N0fGdoA.jpg

The home swaged brass jacketed bullets have excellent velocities.
The cast bullets did their best with 6/7bhn alloys in the snubnosed 38spl p+ tests.
The 6/7bhn cast bullets with large/long bottom drive bands outperformed the other cast bullet with multiple/large middle drive bands or the hb bullets.
The 358156 bullet cast with a 6/7bhn alloy and had a gc added was either top dog or within 5fps in everything I tested.

bullseye
american select
unique
be-86
herco
2400
power pistol

While I didn't get the 1000fps that bb/pearce claim to get. 950fps (real fbi load) is impressive. It's what I targeted and after a bunch of test rounds, what I ended up with.

Soft bullet/gc/power pistol/950fps

[Forrest r]

If you don't think I did a bunch of head scratching when I 1st started testing 38spl p+ loads in that snubnosed revolver. You better guess again. Finely said the heck with it (wasn't doing well at all) and dug out every hp/35cal mold I had along with every hb mold and made up a #50 batch of 10bhn alloy.

Did a bunch of casting/coating/testing

Got to thinking about it and re-tested the top performing loads/bullets with a 6/7bhn alloy.

10 bullets 7 powders and a coupe thousand test rounds later, I managed to get the fbi 4" bbl performance out of a 2" bbl'd revolver.

[Petrol & Powder]

No sir.

I quit @ 950fps. The 358156 and the home swaged jacketed bullets gave me 950fps +/- with 6.2gr of power pistol. Never did get the 1000fps pearce claimed to get. But then again pearce chose extremely well when picking that ruger lcr for his testing.

I can easily see the ruger vs charter arms turning into a 50fps loose in velocity for me/charter arms.


From Forrest r's prior post #191:

"At the end of the day I tested:
h&g #51 hpswc 150gr
358439 hpswc 158gr
cramer hunter hpfn 158gr
cramer #26 hpswc 158gr
358156 hpgcswc 150gr
Mihec 640 hpfn 158gr
Mihec hbwc turned backwards 148gr
home swaged jacketed hp 150gr
358431 hbswc 158gr
raphine hbfn 150gr"

the 358156 HP bullet is highlighted in red

So we're not talking about a 158gr bullet but rather a 150 grain bullet. Is that the actual weight of the bullet tested ?

[35remington]

Gents, if you truly want to “pursue the FBI load” in terms of what it does in short barrels, you will target the 800-850 fps range, because that is what the FBI load does. A hollow point that performs similarly would also be needed.

It has never gone faster than that from shorty barrels. If you want to go faster that is up to you, but that is something entirely different and is not FBI load duplication.

That it made its reputation from short barrels despite giving speeds that some claim are inadequate does not change the fact that the good reputation is still present. Results matter most, more so than anything else.

As I said before, wasting the capacity of a five or six shot revolver on a low percentage barrier shot is a waste of ammo when apportioning your fire is critically needed. Used as is prudent a snubbie revolver is a human shooting tool, not a barrier breacher.

If a barrier is present and you are armed with a revolver use the barrier to create distance instead of shooting it. Don’t shoot people in cars. Run away, drive off, or let them emerge before shooting. If someone is behind a wall or door get out of there or wait until you can see them before shooting.

Not enough ammo is present to waste it on low percentage shots.

[Petrol & Powder]

Gents, if you truly want to “pursue the FBI load” in terms of what it does in short barrels, you will target the 800-850 fps range, because that is what the FBI load does. A hollow point that performs similarly would also be needed.

It has never gone faster than that from shorty barrels. If you want to go faster that is up to you, but that is something entirely different and is not FBI load duplication.

That it made its reputation from short barrels despite giving speeds that some claim are inadequate does not change the fact that the good reputation is still present. Results matter most, more so than anything else.

...........

/\ I agree completely and have been saying that actual results are what matters.

And furthermore, I still say that getting a 158 grain bullet above 900 fps in a 2" revolver barrel likely involves exceeding SAAMI +P pressures.

My testing was over 20 years ago and I didn't have Power Pistol available, so I can't say for certain but I'm skeptical. With the factory loads and the reloads with the powders I did have, I never got close to 900 fps .

I agree with 35Remington - velocity isn't the only yardstick you want to use. Actual results are what matters.

[USSR]

Gents, if you truly want to “pursue the FBI load” in terms of what it does in short barrels, you will target the 800-850 fps range, because that is what the FBI load does.

And I disagree completely. Don't settle for the neutered current FBI Load, go for the original FBI Load. 875 - 900fps is easily attainable with the short barrel snubbies, IF you go with the right powder.

Don

[USSR]

Actual results are what matters.

Couldn't agree more.

Don220267

[35remington]

USSR, as I said, the fastest the FBI load ever went from shorty barrels was 850 no matter what era it is from. There is really nothing to disagree with. The FBI load never, ever got 900 fps from short barrels.

[Petrol & Powder]

And I disagree completely. Don't settle for the neutered current FBI Load, go for the original FBI Load. 875 - 900fps is easily attainable with the short barrel snubbies, IF you go with the right powder.

Don

I don't think the "original" FBI load is any different than the current "FBI Load", nor do I think that load reaches 875 fps out of a 2" barrel.
And it isn't important how fast it goes, but it is important is if penetrates far enough to stop the attack.
Pretty mushroomed bullets look good in ammunition ads but mean nothing when someone is trying to bury a machete in your head. You will not care what the bullet looks like when some surgeon or medical examiner pulls it out of someone else. But you will care if it expands too soon and stops penetrating.

[USSR]

You're wrong, and I will defer to Larry:


with 150 - 158 gr bullets 820 - 850 fps was considered "standard" velocity back in the day. Original Winchester and Federal "FBI 150 LSWDHP +Ps were originally 950+ fps from a 4" barrel and just under the SAAMI MAP for pressure.

Bullseye will not get you to true +P velocity and remain at or under SAAMI +P pressure MAP with 150 gr cast bullets. In the 38 SPL with 150 gr cast bullets 5.5 gr Unique will be right under the SAAMI MAP and get you 950 fps out of a 4" barreled revolver and just under 900 out of 2 - 2.5" barreled revolvers.

Don

[35remington]

950 fps from a 4 inch with a 158 is 850 fps from a 1 7/8-2 inch. I’ve quite extensively chronographed enough 38’s in various barrel lengths to establish that conclusively.

May want to ponder that a bit.

That the FBI load did not exceed around 850 fps from 1 7/8-2 inch barrels no matter what era it was made is as factual information as you will get. We are not discussing what handloads do, but rather what the FBI factory loads did in the past as well as do now.

Confusing the two does not make any kind of point that is relevant.

[Outpost75]

^^^Correct^^^ based upon my own chronograph tests.

[USSR]

We are not discussing what handloads do, but rather what the FBI factory loads did in the past as well as do now.

Okay, let's explore whether there is a difference between the old and the new with someone who has chronographed them both, which obviously you have not done. While the test handgun had a 6" barrel, the fact is that the old and the new FBI Load are different and a velocity difference will show in the 2" barrels as well. May want to ponder that a bit.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/369540-just-tested-new-remington-htp-fbi-load-vs-old-one.html

Don

[35remington]

I have chronographed both the old and the new, which you did not understand. By all means do not take my experienced word for it.

Here is a test more relevant than yours, where both old and new FBI loads were chronographed in the present day in old and new lots, and also where reference was made to conducting the same test in 1980. In a 2 inch barrel. As well as other barrel lengths.

Look to see what the factory SWCHP Plus P’s got in old and new lots.

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/handgun-reloading/84375-38-special-chronograph-test.html

By all means, when you find a chronograph test wherein someone claims significantly different velocity from 1 7/8-2” barrels using factory FBI loads, or where you find it with your own results, feel free to post it.

The fact of the matter is whether old or new FBI factory loads are used, velocity does not exceed 850 fps from 1 7/8-2” barrels. 850 fps is the highest attainable velocity I have found in my own use or reading of other’s tests. Lows approximate 800 fps.

No one said velocities did not vary between lots.

What was said, again, was velocity did not exceed 850 fps no matter what lot or era was tested of factory FBI loads from short barrels described.

If you wish to take issue with what I said, be sure to address what I am saying rather than what you want your discussion to be about.

[Outpost75]

I have chronographed X38SPD production from the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s as well as recent production under the Winchester Ranger label LE ammo from 2010. Using the same four personal guns, 2" SP101, Speed Six 2-3/4", Colt 2" Detective Special, Ruger 4" Service Six. No difference other than normal lot-to-lot variation.

Cylinder gap is important. None of the 2" guns averaged 900 fps. Range was 830-850 fps, A 2-3/4" gunat minimum assembly tolerance pass 0.003"/hold 0.004" will not quite make 900 fps and will average about +30 fps over a 2" gun with same gap. Then you must consider a minimum loss of 10 fps for each 0.001" increase in cylinder gap above Mean Assembly Tolerance.

This is reality. When at Ruger in the 1980s we ran this test with ten guns of each barrel length, firing Winchester, Remington and Federal ammo, guns set to min tolerance gap with .38 Special cylinders, then recylindered to .357, shot again, then faced off barrels to increase cylinder gap from 0.004" to 0.008" and shot again. A .357 chamber also shoots about 20 fps slower than same gun and ammo with .38Special chamber. Proprietary test data was never published, but I was the project engineer and can tell you it was done and is so. Similar test was done with 110-grain Q4070 +P+ by Customs and Border Patrol at FLETC in 1984-85 with similar results. I sent them the same 30 guns and extra cylinders to test.

[35remington]

Incidentally, the 960 odd fps the six inch revolver obtained in your link using the “fast lot” of factory ammo converts to about 810-830 fps from a 1 7/8-2” barrel, which handily makes my point.

Thanks.

[35remington]

Another thing to consider is this:

If the “hot” factory FBI loads attain 960 odd fps from a six inch barrel, does approaching or equaling that velocity from a 1 7/8”-2” barrel indicate mild pressures?

Anybody advise that for an aluminum gun, even if it is rated for Plus P?

I would hope not. Taken in that context, it is not hard to understand why I am critical of printed sources that do, which brings us in a roundabout way to the referenced article mentioned earlier.

[Forrest r]

From Forrest r's prior post #191:

"At the end of the day I tested:
h&g #51 hpswc 150gr
358439 hpswc 158gr
cramer hunter hpfn 158gr
cramer #26 hpswc 158gr
358156 hpgcswc 150gr
Mihec 640 hpfn 158gr
Mihec hbwc turned backwards 148gr
home swaged jacketed hp 150gr
358431 hbswc 158gr
raphine hbfn 150gr"

the 358156 HP bullet is highlighted in red

So we're not talking about a 158gr bullet but rather a 150 grain bullet. Is that the actual weight of the bullet tested ?

The bullet casts out at +/- 148gr with the 10bhn alloy . Adding a al gc and either lube or pc brings the weight up to 152/154gr. Use a copper gc and the weight is in the 153/154gr weight.
Cast with 6/7bhn alloy and you can add a grain to the numbers above.
Cast with the short pin and you can add 2 grains to the #'s above.

Any of those bullets listed above will very in weight depending on the alloy, lube, coating/# of coats, gc's/types of gc's, etc.

You would think you already know things like this??? Perhaps that's why you can't get a load to do more than 900fps in a snubnosed revolver.

[Forrest r]

The fbi load in snubnosed revolvers:

That ammo was never intended to be used in snubnosed revolvers. The standard lead rn 158gr/850fps 38spl used in issued 4" bbl'd firearms flat out sucked. Enter the the 158gr hpswc p+ ammo. It was used in snubnosed revolvers simply because it was either issued or there. Which brings the snubnosed ammo right back to the 850fps/38spl/ammo that sucks.

It's hard to grasp but here goes:
fbi ='s 4" bbl/950fps/158gr lead hpswc
Treasury ='s 2"bbl/1050fps/110gr jhp

Just because something is laying around and that's all their was doesn't mean it's worth using. When someone says the "fbi" ammo did extremely well in snubnosed revolver, it makes me laugh.

This thread changes every time the wind blows.
4 or 5 pages back 800fps was the magic # and good enough. Now it's 850fps.
went from 890fps for the "fbi" load to 960fps

With ALL this testing over the years going on you'd think there would be a little more consistence in some of the posters threads. Outpost75 and larry have posted the same #'s for years on this topic, others well. The wind just changed, wounder what it will be today???

[Petrol & Powder]

The bullet casts out at +/- 148gr with the 10bhn alloy . Adding a al gc and either lube or pc brings the weight up to 152/154gr. Use a copper gc and the weight is in the 153/154gr weight.
Cast with 6/7bhn alloy and you can add a grain to the numbers above.
Cast with the short pin and you can add 2 grains to the #'s above.

Any of those bullets listed above will very in weight depending on the alloy, lube, coating/# of coats, gc's/types of gc's, etc.

You would think you already know things like this??? Perhaps that's why you can't get a load to do more than 900fps in a snubnosed revolver.

I do know things like that, no sarcasm needed. And once again you're showing your anger when others question your results.

So, did you use the long HP pin to reduce the weight of the projectile? Did you use a 10 BHn alloy ? Did you actually weigh the projectile used in that test? Was it actually 154 grains or closer to 150 ?

It may be possible to achieve 900+fps with 158 gr (+/- 1gr) projectile fired from a 2" revolver barrel and stay within SAAMI +P pressures, however I remain skeptical based on my own experience.

I say this because we're not talking about 10 or 20 fps here. From my memory, most of my tests landed in the 800-850 range and I do not recall anything getting close to 900 fps in a 2" revolver with 158gr bullets - and I did weigh my bullets. If had been getting velocities in the 880-890 fps range, I wouldn't be so skeptical now.


I did not have Power Pistol available to me during my tests in the mid 1990's and maybe that's the key.

So that we don't get crosswise here, allow me to say that I don't question the velocities you've published. However I do question the pressures and bullet weights that were used to achieve those velocities. If the pressures are higher than 20K psi and/or the bullets are significantly lighter than 158 grains - we are no longer comparing apples to apples.

[Livin_cincy]

I put (4) dashes of Tobasco into my handloads using TrailBoss and I get really hot FBI loads.

I get about 3400 FPS out of a 2" Snubby... Roughly the velocity of a Flying Pig when is buzzes over a Unicorn Herd causing a stampede and this upsets Bigfoot, the Good Shepherd.

[35remington]

Given that the FBI load did and does 800-850 fps from short barrels over its production run, and finding a lot that ran on the high end of the range was fairly rare, suggesting the numbers have varied from 800 to 960 fps from the posters here is deliberately misstating what was actually said by mixing longer barrel velocities with shorter barrel results.

Suggesting that 800-850 fps is acceptable from the FBI load is reasonable because that is the velocity it got from short barrels during the time it was making its reputation. Due to powder position shifts in the case even the hottest lots will come out the barrel at 800 fps and slower when the gun is drawn and the powder is near the bullet. The load still worked under such conditions.

That the FBI load did have a good reputation even when fired from shorter barrels is a matter of some record. Apparently those on the receiving end did not find it all that laughable from short barrels and ceased engaging in their unlawful activities in such a way that it was considered effective.

Since that comes from those who have actually used it rather than those who have not, I give that the credibility it is due. As was said earlier, results are definitive.

Better to base judgements on what is known from actual usage than opinion. That seems to be logically obvious.

[Outpost75]

Mental masaturbation takes less effort than gathering and evaluating repetitive, empirical data.

Colt Det. Special, .38 Spl. 2", 0.006" cylinder gap, Federal 38G (1982) 833 fps, 23 Sd
Colt Det. Special, .38 Spl. 2", 0.006" cylinder gap, Winchester X38SPD (1984) 831 fps, 10 Sd
Ruger Service Six .38 Spl. 4", 0.006" cylinder gap, Federal 38G (1982) 901 fps, 12 Sd
Ruger Service Six .38 Spl. 4", 0.006" cylinder gap, Winchester X38SPD (1984) 920 fps, 21 Sd
Ruger Service Six .38 Spl. 4", 0.006" cylinder gap Olin Q4070 110-gr. +P+ (1984) 1110 fps, 23 Sd
Ruger SP101 .38 Spl. 2", 0.003" cylinder gap, Federal 38G (1982) 869 fps, 9 Sd
Ruger SP101 .38 Spl. 2", 0.003" cylinder gap, Winchester X38SPD (1984), 857 fps, 14 Sd
Ruger SP101 .38 Spl. 2", 0.003" cylinder gap, Olin Q4070 110-gr.+P+ (1984) 1079 fps, 13 Sd

[35remington]

It also seems curious that those who stay within limits suggested by loading manuals for Plus P and honestly report their findings with the loads they used at the time are implied to be in error or lacking in knowledge about how to do it.

They got what they got. Good methodology was used in paying attention to loading manual suggestions. That does not seem foolish or ignorant in any way, and it is doubtful that if the bullet lacked 50 or 100 fps from what some may think is needed it would suddenly start bouncing off.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I really enjoy seeing 35remington's and Outpost75's reasoned and well written posts on this. I have carried and shot lots of the FBI load, initially the Winchester version and later the Remington version. I was fortunate to be acquainted with Alan Jones, Firearms Examiner for the Dallas County Crime Lab (properly known as the Southwest Institute of Forensic Sciences - SWIFS). He did what proved to be ground breaking terminal ballistics work in the 1970s that provided real testing of various handgun loads out there at the time. He also proved through objective testing that the FBI load was a very effective and well balanced load in both 4" and snub revolvers. The load was adopted and used widely in Dallas and other major cities and its frequent use on slow learners proved the load's efficacy and validated Alan's testing.

He later went to CCI-Speer for a long career and now writes a very informative ballistics column in Shooting Times.

My chronograph testing of the Winchester and Remington FBI loads in 1 7/8" S&W revolvers showed velocity ranges from 790 - 840 fps in several different guns. I think that matches up with what we've seen posted here.

[USSR]

This thread changes every time the wind blows.
4 or 5 pages back 800fps was the magic # and good enough. Now it's 850fps.

The wind just changed, wounder what it will be today???

It'll be whatever they need it to be.;)

Don

[35remington]

Nope. Just what the FBI load actually does.

Opinion is no substitute for factual information. Factual information is presented in great plenty in this thread. Knowing the difference is helpful.

[FergusonTO35]

Outpost75- you say that .38 ammo in a .357 chamber will be slightly slower than the same ammo fired out of a .38 chamber. How about the short cylinder .357 revolvers out there? For example, my Rossi 461 .357 has a noticeably shorter cylinder than my .38 Special S&W 10-5 and Ruger Service Six.

[tazman]

Outpost75- you say that .38 ammo in a .357 chamber will be slightly slower than the same ammo fired out of a .38 chamber. How about the short cylinder .357 revolvers out there? For example, my Rossi 461 .357 has a noticeably shorter cylinder than my .38 Special S&W 10-5 and Ruger Service Six.

I'd like to hear the answer to that question myself. It seems strange that a 357 mag would have a shorter cylinder than a 38 special though.

[Outpost75]

Lower velocity of .38 Special fired in the longer .357 chamber is welll documented and is due to gas loss as the bullet base transitions the gap between the mouth of the .38 case and the longer cone of the .357 chamber.

[tazman]

Lower velocity of .38 Special fired in the longer .357 chamber is welll documented and is due to gas loss as the bullet base transitions the gap between the mouth of the .38 case and the longer cone of the .357 chamber.

I got that part. What about when the cylinder itself is a different length?
Different manufacturers make the cylinders different lengths. S&W made different length 357 mag cylinders depending on the model. The Ruger Blackhawk has a long cylinder in 357 mag.
Several companies took 357 model revolvers and chambered them for 38 special using the standard mag length cylinder(Colt Python, Dan Wesson that I know of).

[Outpost75]

Chamber length is more important than cylinder length.

[tazman]

I was hoping for some data, not just an opinion.

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, now we are getting somewhere.

You are NOT talking about 158 grain bullets, you are talking about 150 grain bullets,

"The reality of it:
When I did the 10 bullet test I started with a standard 358156 hp mold that had a standard .125" pin. It weighed 150gr dressed out. So when I say a 358156 150gr bullet was faster then the 358439. (150gr vs 157gr) It absolutely was!!!"


The three major ways to increase velocity are: use a lighter projectile, use more pressure or use a longer barrel. You used a lighter projectile.

Your assertions that a better bullet base design and softer alloys also help to increase velocity are valid assertions but not nearly as critical as bullet weight and pressure.

You have been listing velocities for your loads and I have no doubt those are accurate velocities BUT they were not achieved with 158 grain projectiles. In order to compare apple to apples we have to be talking about the same things; Same cartridge, same barrel length, same maximum pressure and SAME bullet weight.
You listed some impressive numbers but you achieved those velocities by using a lighter projectile.

As for the pressure, I don't know if 6.2 grains of Power Pistol behind a 150 grain projectile will exceed SAAMI limits for 38 Special +P but Alliant's on-line data shows a load of 6 grains with a 158 grain bullet, so 6.2 grains of Power Pistol and a 150 gr bullet may be beyond SAAMI +P levels as well.

[35remington]

Another question might be that as powder charges are increased beyond some source’s maximums and bullets vary from those used in actual pressure testing, how do we know we are “right” in terms of the actual pressure generated being within limits?

Something to think about.

[Outpost75]

I was hoping for some data, not just an opinion.

The test data is proprietary and belongs to my then employer, Sturm, Ruger & Co., where I was employed by their engineering dept. at Newport, NH. They will not share the company data, and I would be violating a non-disclosure agreement to publish further specifics. You will have accept my opinion that I know what I am talking about.

If you want to show me YOUR data, then I would be delighted to see it.

[35remington]

I happen to have a Rossi 357 and yes, the cylinder is shorter than some Smith 38 cylinders. In theory, if all else was magically the same, the shorter cylinder would have a little less throat length. This would theoretically have a little less throat/barrel travel before bullet exit than another gun with a longer cylinder and identical barrel length. This might be presumed to give a little less velocity.

Thing is, when measuring the barrel length I come up with the barest hair less than 2.6” on the Rossi rather than the 2.5 inches nominal of Smith guns, which also may vary sometimes from
nominal length.

Without the multiple guns and rigorous testing Outpost did with guns that were held to closer tolerances and only a single variable accounted for I cannot give you a good answer as to how it compares to other revolvers of slightly longer cylinder length. I am comparing apples to oranges.

I can tell you that all 38’s fired in its 357 cylinder go bang and exit the barrel with decent velocity. Long shooting sessions of 38’s make 357’s more difficult to seat (no rocket science in that observation!!).

It does go a bit faster than 1 7/8 and 2 inch Smith 38’s. I did not have a 2.5” Smith 357 to compare it to. Cylinder gap is 0.005-0.006.” Having not shot it much with 357’s (an intentional policy) it is still tight and very unworn.

That is the best I can do as for information. My curiosity about that particular issue is admittedly low and I just record what it does and go on.

I know this didn’t help much but that is all I got.

[FergusonTO35]

No, that helped plenty! I consider the Rossi akin to the .357 K-frame. It will handle .357's but a steady diet is going to wear it out a lot faster. My 461 was rebarreled by Rossi due to a yawning b/c gap. It now has a snug .003 so I'm eager to see what kind of chronograph readings I'm going to get.

[35remington]

I would think it would do well unless the cylinder throats are bizarrely oversized compared to other guns of the same barrel length.

I must admit that due to noise issues out of the shorty barrel I find 38’s or equivalent handloads in 357 cases to be much more pleasant for general use than 357s and all I really need for a knocking around in the field gun.

Around here when “river ratting” on the backwater sloughs of the Missouri a 38/357 revolver loaded moderately is a handy thing to have when running trot lines and bank lines, camping overnight near the river via boat travel, etc.

Provides security and plinking and potting vermin. Popping gar is a rather fun activity too, and it doesn’t chuck my cases into the weeds. Comes in handy when a snapping turtle swallows the bait and hook on your bank lines as well.

Launches big green bullfrogs well into airborne status!

[ShooterAZ]

Please keep it civil here guys. The thread has been informative, let's keep it that way.

[tazman]

The test data is proprietary and belongs to my then employer, Sturm, Ruger & Co., where I was employed by their engineering dept. at Newport, NH. They will not share the company data, and I would be violating a non-disclosure agreement to publish further specifics. You will have accept my opinion that I know what I am talking about.

OK. I can live with that.
As far as my data, I have none. That is why I ask questions in order to obtain some data.

35remington--- Thanks for the information from your Rossi. I don't have a Smith with a barrel shorter than 3" so cannot test loads appropriately. Also, since I don't have ptessure testing equipment, I can't go that route either. This is why I ask questions.
I can test loads in my Model 60 and and my model 15 to see what happens but that is the best I can do.
A lot has changed in the powders that are available since the FBI load first came out. I can't afford to invest in a bunch of powders just for testing a load I will seldom shoot and I imagine most can't either.
That is why we come here and ask questions.

[35remington]

I have not tried all powders certainly, but I have shot quite a few.

One observation is that a three inch barrel is much closer to a 4 inch barrel than a 1 7/8-2” barrel in terms of generated velocity. One might logically think that it would be right in the middle but in my trials it is not.

One of the downsides of Power Pistol has to be mentioned because it is getting a lot of free press here. It is that velocity variation is rather high with shifts in powder position, approximating what Unique does. Bullseye and Titegroup will both beat it in that respect.

Universal is utterly horrible in the 38 Special in that regard and performs very poorly in the 32 Long case despite its smaller size. It has my nomination for one of the worst large case/low pressure powders currently available.

[johniv]

Very useful thread. Thanks to all for the info here.
John

[Uncle R.]

Very useful thread. Thanks to all for the info here.
John

Agreed.
I am certainly learning a lot from reading this thread.

Uncle R.