lyman 1878?

[762sultan]

I am still looking for a single shot 45/70 and came across a Lyman 1878 that looks nice. It says made by Pedersoli to Lyman's specs. Is it comparable to a standard Pedersoli? Looks nice and price is right but how does it stand up? Has a Vernier sight but does not look like a quality piece. Any ideas?

[rfd]

it's their version of the 1877 sharps. it should be a very good gun. what will matter most is the price tag and what will be its primary use.

two hickok45 review videos ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nstqP33Kz_4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEEXdnEh-mU

[1Hawkeye]

Its a nice looking rifle but for that kinda money you could get a Shiloh. Also the rear sight might not do what you want it to compared to an MVA. The Lyman sights don't have windage adjustment. Have you looked at any of the Pedersoli's that Cabela's has listed ? The Lyman does have the features you would want though, the shotgun butt,pistol grip,30" barrel,set triggers, and a limited tang sight. Can you get the Lyman locally cheaper than its suggested retail? Take a look at the Pedersoli sharps hunters rifle at Cabelas its 1100.00 for that much price difference you could trick it out with a Lee Shaver spirit globe front sight and a MVA sharps mid range tang sight and have a lot of money left over. Mike Venturino is right once the sharps bug bites you having just one won't cut it. Heck there is a shop a little ways from me that has a Shiloh montana rough rider in .40-65 for sale thats got a kelly soule sight on it plus dies,mold,sizer,& 200 pcs of brass for 2399.00. When in the rare occurrence that a Pedersoli turns up on the used rack its about 1000.00 to 1200.00 depending on the shop.

[rfd]

to say that one can purchase a shiloh sharps at the cost of a lyman 1877/1878 means nothing until the actual dollar numbers are presented. i suspect the op is talking about a used one, which will command far less that even a used shiloh.

[762sultan]

I have connections and think I could get it for $1600 out the door. After watching the videos by hickok45 I think it would be better to go with a Pedersoli and equip it with sights that are more to my liking. I'm also watching Cabelas to see if they have something on sale this summer or fall. One will come along and I'll keep putting more money aside and when it shows up I'll get it.

[rfd]

what will be the prime use of the rifle? that will define what accoutrements yer gonna need, and how much more money you'll need to complete the gun ready for shooting.

for example, my last pedi sharps is the silhouette in .40-65 and i'll use it for targets and dingers. so besides the 1.2k price paid, plus shipping, i added in a lee shaver super grade sight set with vernier soule tang and hadley eyecup and front spirit globe for an added $500+. then a few spare firing pins that i can refit with music wire when they break, and they will. if yer playing the reasonably serious target game, you'll build yer own cartridges, so add in dies, brass, primers, and maybe at the start buy some greased bullets so to keep the cost down a bit, but you will need a Good mould and lead alloy and some method of greasing the bullets. in my case, i paper patch, which adds another layer of both understanding, components, and commitment. there will be more, as all of what's just mentioned is the tip of this iceberg.

[1Hawkeye]

Very true, its been my experience that there are two kinds of people selling used sharps rifles. Regardless of the manufacturer type A seller sells his rifle for a realistic price while type B is a joker who thinks he's gonna get new gun retail or higher for his rifle. This is a hunt where patients pays off in money saved and sometimes timing is everything. Just because I got very lucky and my first Shiloh (used) cost the same as my first Pedersoli (new) was total luck and exceptional timing. There are deals to be had out there but ya gotta know what your looking for and what the market is when your out beating the bushes or you could wind up with a IAB you paid 1200.00 bucks for. The Lyman 762 is referring to is a nice looking rifle but if your comparing new Lyman to new Pedersoli sharps hunter I would go with the hunter model as for the Shiloh yes they are 2000.00 plus for a new entry level rifle but you don't need a caddie when a chevy does the same thing.:bigsmyl2:

[rfd]

yep, lots to consider, including one's patience at waiting either to spot and nab a good used pedi or shiloh or c-sharps or cpa or whatever ... or waiting 19+ months for that custom shiloh. money and time, time and money ....

[1Hawkeye]

762, ya got the right idea don't worry rfd and I won't let you make any mistakes.

[country gent]

Define the desired uses of the rifle, Hunting, Shiloettes, Long Range target, plinking or other uses. This will help define the rifle set-up you want. Pedersoli has several versions available. Up grading the sights is a big plus the double set trigger may also be desirable. Barrel length and contour can really affect weight and balance. The 45-70 is a very versatile cartridge and fairly easy to work with. It responds well to mostly standard techniques.

I have a 1874 Pedersoli Cabellas Long Range model ( this was my first foray into BPCR rifles) Its a great shooting rifle, Mine has the pedersoli long range soule rear and wind gage front globe on it now. I also had it drilled and tapped for my MVA Malcomb Scopes. It wears a 34" half round barrel 1-18 twist. Decent walnut fit and finish. It is about 6 ounces over weight for sanctioned NRA shillouette matches.

It performs well with most bullets from 480-550 grns, it really likes the 535 postel from lyman. It also does very well with the PP at around 520 grns from Brooks. I load true Black Powder olde ensford or swiss does best for me. Its a nice rifle easy to work with. I did have a mainspring break a few years ago. The rifle is close to 25years old now.

[marlinman93]

I can't add much to the good advice given, but I will say that I don't mind paying a little extra for a nicer looking rifle. That may be better grade of stocks, or better fit and finish. Regardless, I just feel better looking at a nice quality gun when I'm shooting, hunting, or just admiring it at home.
Given some time, I think you'll locate the perfect gun, in the right caliber, and at a decent price.

[762sultan]

It's comforting to know that there are shooters with your collective experience and knowledge who are willing to share with a novice like me. I have reloaded for a number of years and have cast bullets for about the same amount of time. I'm comfortable in making ammo for it and have several hundred Starline 45/70 cases along with 5744, 3031, and 4198 among others. Just need something to shoot them in. I'm in no hurry and don't expect to buy a gun until late summer or fall. But I will be looking daily, as one could show up out of the blue. I have narrowed it down to a Pedersoli of one model or the other. I really want an octagon barrel and not all have that...also want something that I can up-grade the sights. That's why I'm saving some money to fund this project.

[country gent]

Another thing is to look at the C Sharps line with out the bells and whistles they arnt far from the pedersoli and a sight upgrade. Though all of mine have been 8-10 weeks wait from when ordered. A 1874 Csharps with spirit front globe and mid range soule rear is around $2000 maybe a little under. Not sure what the pedersolis are bringing now but the rifle and a good rear and front globe upgrade isn't goingn to be far off. MVA long range soule is around $450+ the spirit front globe is around $150. The mva wind age front globe is over $300.

Ordering the C Sharps with just what you want is a one time cost

[Don McDowell]

Country, did you mean the 1875 from CSA?

[country gent]

Could be but staying away from wood upgrades and the "fancy upgrades" saves a lot of cost. Just opting for checkering is over $300.00. Not saying that's out of line for the work involved but its "extra"

[Don McDowell]

Here's the 1875's a real good bargain http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-category/9/1875-Sharps-Rifles.html?page=0

[rfd]

for the .45-70 cartridge ....

the c.sharps appears to be a low price with good value until you realize what's missing - double set triggers and pistol grip, just to name two items i'd consider important for a target rifle, not a hunting gun. with that in mind, that $1475 1875 model now becomes $1730. although in reasonable comparison, that's a good $265 lower than a '74 shiloh #1 sportster, and $555 more than a '74 pedersoli (albeit it has a straight grip - the better pistol grip heavy barrel silhouette rifle will be $530 more, but it'll be a .40-65). that's just the beginning of yer dollars outlay, too.

reality check .... it'll be a hard row to hoe to get into the reasonably competitive bpcr/bptr game with lots less than two grand in yer wallet. good luck in finding a good, new .45-70 sharps - just the rifle alone, that will be competitive in the target game - for less than $1175, new. used, GOOD used that doesn't need "help"? that's another totally diff'rent story that might be like trying to finding a needle in a hay stack. i sure hope you can find one!

[Don McDowell]

Well that's where first hand experience comes in. The 75 even if a person doesn't opt for the single set trigger, works quite well for all manner of target shooting , and if so equipped with barrel sights makes a fine hunting rifle as well.
Not to mention the ability for one to stick with American craftsmanship and pride , and still maintain a tight budget.

[country gent]

When you start adding the extras to the semi custom guns the prices start jumping quick. checkering, forend tips, special finishes, special barrels, wood upgrades ( going from standard to exhibition grade walnut can add a lot ). But the big plus is you can get the rifle you want Just how you want it, with no need to add extras after the purchase.

[marlinman93]

I personally would steer clear of the CSA 1875 model. They aren't a bad gun at all, but they seem to have very little following or interest. The 1874 Model Sharps is a much better choice and will hold it's value much better. Not that you're going to ever sell whatever you buy, but it's worth considering when you look.

[marlinman93]

By the way. Here's a Pedersoli with shotgun butt, and set triggers for under $1300. Still need to get sights, but the BIN price isn't bad at all. And another about $20 higher. Better than paying more with Pedersoli sights, and then replacing them with better quality sights.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/763051663

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/765583125

[rfd]

both are listed as new and both are good buys, indeed - go get 'em, OP.

[marlinman93]

both are listed as new and both are good buys, indeed - go get 'em, OP.

I'd personally go with the pistol gripped version myself. But I just like that look and feel better.

[Don McDowell]

I personally would steer clear of the CSA 1875 model. They aren't a bad gun at all, but they seem to have very little following or interest. The 1874 Model Sharps is a much better choice and will hold it's value much better. Not that you're going to ever sell whatever you buy, but it's worth considering when you look.

There are quite a few of those rifles out and about, pretty common amongst the gong circuit in Montana and other places in the high plains.

[marlinman93]

it's their version of the 1877 sharps. it should be a very good gun. what will matter most is the price tag and what will be its primary use.



Finally watched the review videos just because I wanted to see where the "Creedmoor" part was. As usual somebody is being liberal with the use of the "Creedmoor" name, as it's obvious this gun has nothing in common with a Creedmoor rifle. But I noticed something in the video that did disturb me, and that was his use of the set triggers, or actually his not using them. There have been numerous cases of double set trigger gun's triggers being broken by shooting them without setting the triggers. Normally not using set triggers can and will eventually damage them. So my question is does anyone know how these rifle's triggers function, and whether they can be fired just using the front trigger and not eventually break the triggers?

edit-I found my answer! Located a Pedersoli manual online and it states their triggers can be used set or unset. So looks like it's just fine either way!

[rfd]

yes, the pistol grip version.

the "creedmoor" name has been slung about too often for various rifles, and too often it's just wrong.

[sharpsguy]

That Pedersoli "Business" rifle on GB is their Hunter's rifle by another name. It does not have the ladder rear barrel sight that will let you reach 1200 yards if you know how to use it, AND the receiver is sand blasted and left rough before case hardening. The finish on the barrel is rough as well. This is a rifle Pedersoli cut every corner possible in finishing to save a few bucks so they could sell it cheap.

The Cimmaron rifle is a standard Pedersoli Silhouette rifle, and a much better finished firearm. It has the proper barrel rear sight. This rifle is a much better buy.

Having said that, I prefer Shilohs and have several that I shoot. I will also add that I have three Pedersolis and they will shoot with the Shilohs.

[rfd]

the pedi '74 silhouette model is good one that's $1200 in .40-65 and $1650 in .45-70, from DGW. same exact gun, just different caliber/cartridge. i've been shooting the .40-65 with ppb's in its greaser chamber and it's far more accurate than i am. plus, due to the heavier near taperless barrel and smaller bore, the .40-65 is a heavier gun. i'm drop tubing 65.5 grains of swiss 1-1/2f, one .025" card wad, under a BACO Jim393425e slick that drops at 422 grains with 1:20 alloy, seated ,115" into the fire formed starline brass. with the gun's 12lb 5ozs weight, recoil is not an issue. if you could accept the .40 instead of the .45, perhaps this is the gun to get if money is an issue - or even if it ain't.

[sharpsguy]

The 40-65 has a LOT going for it. It's one of the best kept secrets in the BPCR arena. One of my Pedersolis is this model in 40-65, and it is my favorite walking around gun. The caliber is MUCH more effective as a hunting round than I ever expected, easily giving complete pass through penetration on a shoulder shot on a buffalo.

[rfd]

sharpsguy is on the money - that pedi .40-65 has changed my mind about converting it to .45-70 ... she's a Shooter.

218901

218902

[marlinman93]

I'm a big fan of the .40 caliber rifles, and not any I own in old .40 caliber chamberings I don't like! I was without a .40-65 for years, but recently rebarreled an engraved Ballard I own in .40-65 with a Douglas half octagon 30" barrel. I'm also building a rolling Block in the same caliber as I enjoy the .40-65 a lot. I think it's the perfect combination of enough cartridge for longrange shooting, but a little less felt recoil.

[rfd]

plus, you can cram in a lot of powder into the .40-65 case if you paper patch. i can easily get in 68 grains, prolly 70 if need be, currently testing out 66.2 grains.

[Don McDowell]

[QUOTE]Finally watched the review videos just because I wanted to see where the "Creedmoor" part was. As usual somebody is being liberal with the use of the "Creedmoor" name, as it's obvious this gun has nothing in common with a Creedmoor rifle/QUOTE]
I am curious as to what you think a Creedmoor rifle looked like.

[marlinman93]

[QUOTE]Finally watched the review videos just because I wanted to see where the "Creedmoor" part was. As usual somebody is being liberal with the use of the "Creedmoor" name, as it's obvious this gun has nothing in common with a Creedmoor rifle/QUOTE]
I am curious as to what you think a Creedmoor rifle looked like.

It isn't really based on what I think, vs. what the rules said. Creedmoor rifles don't have a specific look, but they do have very specific rules, so guns not fitting within those rules should not be called "Creedmoor" rifles. Set triggers immediately eliminate a gun, as they weren't allowed in Creedmoor longrange matches. Barrels could be shorter than 32", but 32" was the limit, and every gun ever used in recorded matches used that 32" length. Weight could not be over the 10 lb. limit, so guns with a 32" heavy barrel could never be considered a Creedmoor rifle. Most common I've seen or owned were half octagon, but a fair number were full round also. I have only seen one full octagon, and it was extremely light to make the 10 lb. limit. Calibers were originally a .44-77SBN that had the 525 gr. bullet seated way out to stuff 90 grs. of powder in the case. But other calibers were also used as long as they were large bore like .44 or .45 caliber, and high capacity of around 90 grs. or more. My Ballard #7 is a .44-100, but later Marlin changed them to .45-100.
There is no "set" stock type, but obviously a crescent, or schuetzen stock wouldn't work. Too much recoil, and OAL of the guns needed too fit in a box that wouldn't allow a Swiss buttplate, or deep crescent. All I've seen had hard steel or hard rubber shotgun style buttplates.
There were a number of military style Creedmoor rifles made also, as there were specific categories for military matches. A military Creedmoor looked like the run of the mill military rifle, but limited to the same 32" barrel. Most had the addition of a heel base to relocate the tang sight to either tang or heel position, and that was common to both civilian or military Creedmoor models.
This is a true Creedmoor rifle, and meets all the parameters of the rules.
https://i.imgur.com/rquyGrW.jpg

The biggest issue with misuse of the Creedmoor name is people attaching it to what they "think" one should look like, vs. actually knowing the history and rules, so they use the name correctly. Kinda irritates me to see the Creedmoor name attached to calibers like thee newer 6.5 Creedmoor too! It may certainly shoot 800-1000 yds., but it isn't a Creedmoor caliber. It's become a sales gimmick these days.

[Don McDowell]

The thoughts behind Sharps' 1877 model was to lighten the action so more weight could be put into the barrel.
The recoil from those light rifles was the main reason for shooting from the back position. Except for Bodine always preferred the face forward prone.
One of the things I find interesting is the belief of the time,that if you fired a Creedmoor rifle from the left shoulder it would stop the shooters heart. And maybe they had good reason for that, as a 10 lb rifle loaded with 100+ gr of powder and hurling a 500ish grain bullet is something that has to be felt to be truly appreciated.

[marlinman93]

I know my #7 Ballard pictured above is abusive with the factory 535 gr. bullet recommended in the .44-100 case. From what I've been able to find, and glean from talking with John Dutcher, the .44-100 and .45-100 Ballard cartridges were never offered as complete factory loaded rounds. They were sold as unprimed brass only, as shooters of these calibers wanted to load to their own requirements.
I personally load all my old guns with smokeless, but this .44-100 is the exception as the case capacity is so large I just couldn't imagine using smokeless powder in it. So I used 90 grs. of Swiss 1 1/2 and a thick wad with the PP 535 I cast from the mold that came with this rifle. It didn't take more than one shot fired to understand why the writers of the 1870's referred to the .44-100 Ballard as an "abusive caliber"! I did eventually fire about 10 of the 20 rounds I had loaded, but then I simply quit.
John Dutcher told me that all #7 Ballard Longrange rifles had both tang and heel sight bases, but mine is an exception. It was special ordered without the heel base, so the shooter must have not liked the back position that some used. I wish it had the heel base myself, as I'd like to try it. But I wont alter an original gun, so I guess I need to figure out how to reduce the recoil with lighter bullets, and maybe a thicker wad or some safe filler.

[Don McDowell]

As odd as it might sound , paper patch loads will be a bit less felt recoil , than the same load with grease groove when shooting black.

[marlinman93]

As odd as it might sound , paper patch loads will be a bit less felt recoil , than the same load with grease groove when shooting black.

Not odd at all considering paper patch should have less resistance going down the bore.