Muzzleloader 32-40 barrel ??? will it work

[kens]

I am an old school muzzle loader of patched round balls. This new thing of the fast twist (1:28) inlines with sabots in .50cal is relatively new to me.
I also see that the shallow groove 1:28 inlines will stabilize a .50 conical in a .50 barrel without a patch nor sabot, the bullet will 'bump up' into the grooves.
My question is about twist rate and the amount of 'bump up' or obturation that can be done with a muzzleloader. We all know that round balls work with slow twist and elongated bullets work with fast twist. My thinking is that the smaller the bore the faster the twist.
Can I take a 32-40 barrel blank bore/groove 314/321 with twist 1:14; and muzzle load it with a soft cast .308 bullet?
Possible use a paper patch or thin cloth patch to make up the difference of a .308 bullet and the 314 bore?
Will it bump up?
Will it stabilize?
Will the twist be too fast?
The original 32-40 cartridge was black powder and ran about 1500fps. Why couldnt I duplicate that with a front loader?

[mooman76]

I don't see it being too fast a twist. If you are going to use regular bullets, I would think paper patching would be the best route.

[Good Cheer]

Kens that sounds like a super fun project.

[rodwha]

A felt wad may be needed as well.

I’ve been wondering about this very thing but with a larger caliber.

[kens]

A felt wad may be needed as well.

I’ve been wondering about this very thing but with a larger caliber.

Do you mean using a .45-70 barrel and muzzle load it with soft cast 45acp bullets??

[Nobade]

It works, but you end up with a very long powder column in such a small bore. And you have to load pretty heavy to get it to shoot. If you have an interest in guns like this, I'd suggest reading "the muzzleloading caplock rifle" by Ned Roberts. Folks have been using rifles like this for a long time.

[John Taylor]

Pope liked the 32-40 and would load the bullet from the muzzle with a paper patch and load the cartridge from the breach end. He had some amazing groups.

[kens]

I just talked to a fellow that is knowledgeable of the Scheutzen type rifles. He is shooting a .45 muzzle loader 1:16 twist with a 540gr bullet. He stated he is going out to 600 & 1000 yards with this setup. He gave me encouraging words on my little project. I know he is heavier caliber, and longer range, however, if I could get 300yards 'most' days, and 500yds on a 'good' day, I would be happy.
I'm starting to shop around for one of those Unertl scopes, with the external adjustments.

[oldracer]

Like Kens noted, I am also shooting 45 caliber fast twist 540 grain grease groove bullets. I use 80 grains of Goex FFG with a fiber wad on top, no compacting of the powder and the bullet slides down the bore with just a tad bit of friction. I can get 1 MOA groups on cross sticks out to 300 yards on a day with little to no wind but when windy I do not do well as I have only been doing this for a few years. I started with Pedersoli Gibbs stone stock except I put Lee Shaver sights on it. This rifle has been a world champ winner right out of the box soooooo I figure the shooters must be pretty darn good to?! My latest is a home made 45 caliber with what we think is a Pope gain twist barrel and a 12 power Unertl scope that was found on Gun Broker at a pawn shop in Arkansas. I have only shot it at the range on 7 or 8 days and went out to 300 yards after 2 days! So far the weather at our range in San Diego has been the normal strange spring stuff so a load work up has not happened yet. My other slug guns have Green Mountain barrels, 1 in 18 twist and all 3 shoot just as well as the Pedersoli. In looking at my Pedersoli I saw it has the same type of rifling as Pope made I.E. very wide grooves and slightly rounded groove bottoms. Making these type of shooters is a great challenge and it is really fulfilling.
John

[rodwha]

Do you mean using a .45-70 barrel and muzzle load it with soft cast 45acp bullets??

More like a .38-55/.375 Win barrel or even a 10mm carbine barrel or some such. Something no more than .458”. I had also contemplated 7mm and .308” but just don’t know what kind of oomph they’d retain with a heavy for caliber bullet out at 200 yds or so. Seems a little more caliber will keep additional thump and may have enough for larger game as well.

I had been told that BP is very limiting and that a velocity of about 2000-2400 fps is about all they can be pushed to regardless of caliber or bullet weight.

[kens]

If a rifle tops out velocity with the lightest bullet, then all my muzzleloaders top out with roundball, that would be the lightest, correct?
I chronographed round balls at about 1850fps.
Yes, black powder is limited in velocity to 1800 or 2000fps, however, I feel like, and have not proven yet, black powder pushes heavy bullets better than smokeless, up to a point.
I mean you can take the same say, 70gr load of BP, and add conical vs RB and lose little velocity.
Whereas if you took a metallic .308 and little 110gr bullet load, then take same load and top it with a 200grainer, your pressure would go off the charts, and you lose a whole lot of velocity in order to maintain book pressure.

[Good Cheer]

I am an old school muzzle loader of patched round balls. This new thing of the fast twist (1:28) inlines with sabots in .50cal is relatively new to me.
I also see that the shallow groove 1:28 inlines will stabilize a .50 conical in a .50 barrel without a patch nor sabot, the bullet will 'bump up' into the grooves.
My question is about twist rate and the amount of 'bump up' or obturation that can be done with a muzzleloader. We all know that round balls work with slow twist and elongated bullets work with fast twist. My thinking is that the smaller the bore the faster the twist.
Can I take a 32-40 barrel blank bore/groove 314/321 with twist 1:14; and muzzle load it with a soft cast .308 bullet?
Possible use a paper patch or thin cloth patch to make up the difference of a .308 bullet and the 314 bore?
Will it bump up?
Will it stabilize?
Will the twist be too fast?
The original 32-40 cartridge was black powder and ran about 1500fps. Why couldnt I duplicate that with a front loader?

If a .308 patched up will work that could be a really great choice for a barrel seeing as there are so many .30 caliber bullet molds floating around.
Makes me wonder though, might'n you need to get rid of the lube grooves for better accuracy? Thinking that no grooves could allow for consistent swaging of the bullet when the powder charge kicked it's behind.
I haven't tried that in my .458 bore rifle but I'm threaten' to.

[rodwha]

If a rifle tops out velocity with the lightest bullet, then all my muzzleloaders top out with roundball, that would be the lightest, correct?
I chronographed round balls at about 1850fps.

Maybe. But maybe not. There’s a fellow on another forum who tested a ball vs a bullet with the same charge from his revolver and found the bullet to actually be a tad faster despite weighing about 40 grns more (140 vs 180). It’s thought that the weight along with additional friction due to the longer bearing surface built more pressure and maybe a better burn just to get the bullet moving. This has only been observed with this one bullet (ball-et iirc).

[kens]

If a .308 patched up will work that could be a really great choice for a barrel seeing as there are so many .30 caliber bullet molds floating around.
Makes me wonder though, might'n you need to get rid of the lube grooves for better accuracy? Thinking that no grooves could allow for consistent swaging of the bullet when the powder charge kicked it's behind.
I haven't tried that in my .458 bore rifle but I'm threaten' to.

The guys I have talked to thus far indicate the loob groove thing is non-decisive. They all say they tried it, and all say they had some success with it. then they turn around and the same thing about a slick sided with paper patch. So umm, the jury is still out on lube grooves.

[Nobade]

I've certainly had better luck with paper patched slicks.

[kens]

how do you muzzle load those without tearing the paper?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If a .308 patched up will work that could be a really great choice for a barrel seeing as there are so many .30 caliber bullet molds floating around.
Makes me wonder though, might'n you need to get rid of the lube grooves for better accuracy? Thinking that no grooves could allow for consistent swaging of the bullet when the powder charge kicked it's behind.
I haven't tried that in my .458 bore rifle but I'm threaten' to.


I think there is a pretty good chance that a land diameter bullet would expand if it wasn't too hard. But a grooveless bullet would probably be better. Imagine the opposite, stretching a piece of rubber rod with grooves in it. Most of the stretching would take place in the narrow bits, and in just the same way most of the upsetting of the bullet would take place in the grooves, where it will do you no good. With any upsetting flat-based bullet I think you would be best with a wax or grease cookie between card discs. A felt wad is compressible, and its cushioning effect would reduce the upsetting.

People like Pope didn't rely on upsetting, though. Their muzzle-loading was generally done with a false muzzle in which the bullet was placed before loading into the real muzzle. It was often made from a piece of the same barrel, located by pins and hooks, and the bullet could be started with a simply bullet starter or levers like the sophisticated kind of corkscrew, only in reverse. It was usually cut from the barrel blank after drilling the locating pin holes, although I don't see why a smoothbore false muzzle wouldn't work. Nowadays you could probably locate it with a cerrosafe cast of the bore.

Another system sometimes used was the crosspatch. Two wide, shallow grooves were cut across the false or actual muzzle, at right angles to one another. Two strips of paper were laid in the grooves, and enveloped the bullet as it carried them down the bore. The main advantage was probably guaranteed instant detachment as the bullet left the muzzle. I did a search for "crosspatch etymology" and found it wasn't the origin of the word "crosspatch" for a highly temperamental person, but it might be understandable if it was.

[northmn]

Ballistics pretty much explained it, but also Pope made his own bullet molds and some were slightly tapered for muzzle loading. The project should work as some rifles were made with 45-70 barrels. Also paper patched bullet molds should be available for a 32-40. One individual used to keep a section of the barrel and then "pre-rifle" the bullets by driving them through the cutoff section and then loading them. Fouling still was an issue but they worked for him. Personally I would rather just play with a 32-40 breech loader and BP.

DEP

[Nobade]

how do you muzzle load those without tearing the paper?The patched bullet is just a touch under bore diameter. Usually it will slide down with the weight of the ramrod.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Sliding down fairly easily works well with medium-hard, heavy-bullet and heavily-charged .450 long-range rifles. That bullet might be a little longer, which I think is what controls upsetting (weight of lead compared with cross-section), but I am fairly sure a .32-40 would work without unusual bullets.

At least some of Pope's tapered moulds (biggest at the base) were used for separate breech-seating, ahead of a case which was reloaded time after time without sizing. Some people had a probably pointless belief that the use of the same case improved accuracy. I can't see a straight taper in either direction being advantageous for muzzle-loading, but a bullet which is push fit for the first couple of bands and then a driving fit for the rest, rather like the current Lee cap and ball revolver bullet, might work well. I think it would have to be grooved and lubed, not patched, and it would be specially good for hunting, where you don't want to bother with a false muzzle.

[kens]

I do not believe the old school guys with false muzzle actually engraved rifling at loading. Ballistics said the old timers (Pope) did not rely on bullet bump up. I beg to differ.
If they did engrave rifling with a false muzzle, I really doubt you could push a bullet down the barrel with a ramrod. It would be like trying to slug your barrel with a hand held ramrod by itself.
Think about it, when you slug your barrel, you actually beat the slug down with a mallet or hammer.
Of course those guys upset, or, obturated, or 'bump up', the bullet, we know they did, it is just that at that time they may not really known, or written down just what was happening.
As far as I know, Elmer Keith was the first guy to write about obturation, or, 'bump up'.
And Elmer Keith came along a long time after Pope.

[kens]

The patched bullet is just a touch under bore diameter. Usually it will slide down with the weight of the ramrod.

With my little project, I'm thinking of a false muzzle that is sort of like a forcing cone in a revolver. (a funnel, if you will)
perhaps with the I.D. of the funnel a .001" under the bore size.
try it to see how much it bumps up.

[rodwha]

I do not believe the old school guys with false muzzle actually engraved rifling at loading. Ballistics said the old timers (Pope) did not rely on bullet bump up. I beg to differ.
If they did engrave rifling with a false muzzle, I really doubt you could push a bullet down the barrel with a ramrod. It would be like trying to slug your barrel with a hand held ramrod by itself.
Think about it, when you slug your barrel, you actually beat the slug down with a mallet or hammer.

Actually it’s not so, though maybe it’s due to thinner driving bands, but the Lee REAL does not take much effort to seat after it’s been engraved by the deep round ball grooves.

[Good Cheer]

My .40 is rifled specifically to use engraved boolits. The engraving die is made from a piece of the barrel and threaded to fit in a reloading press.
But now I'm in Indiana and the department of shrub munchers says I have to shoot at least a .44 bore to put venison in the freezer.
:veryconfu

In the .458 bore I use lubed lead 45-70 molds and a .457 push through sizer or the same molds patched and run through the same sizer.
Resuming testing this spring with .52 bores.

[kens]

Actually it’s not so, though maybe it’s due to thinner driving bands, but the Lee REAL does not take much effort to seat after it’s been engraved by the deep round ball grooves.

The Lee REAL is not slick sided, it has driving bands.

[kens]

Does anyone know of a source (mold) that will drop about a .314 bullet soft lead?
I dont want to drop the money on a custom mold without knowing for sure it will work.
What options might I have?

[Good Cheer]

If you are going to use a lubed lead boolit it might be tough to find a design that will lend the support needed.
For patched I'd be tempted to use a drill bit on a Lee mold as my first experiment.

[kens]

Whoaa !! that's interesting.
If a 5/16 drill bit is .312, we're already real close.
Do you know of a source for reamer size .314, 315, 316 ??

[Nobade]

Whoaa !! that's interesting.
If a 5/16 drill bit is .312, we're already real close.
Do you know of a source for reamer size .314, 315, 316 ??MSC has decimal size chucking reamers.

[charlie b]

I've only fired 500-1000 full bore bullets through my ML so my experience is not that great. A few things Ihave learned.

First, read Ron's sticky above about PP the muzzle loader. I learned a lot from his work and others.

Having lube grooves won't bother paper patching enough to worry about, unless you get to competition level accuracy. Yes, it may be better to use slicks. Both need to be sized correctly. For ML paper patching the bullet with PP needs to be at bore size. You do not want to tear the paper when loading.

Softer lead is best to get the 'bump up' to seal the bore and cut the paper. When leaving the muzzle the goal is a little cloud of paper strips.

I have read of people who PP .30 cal bullets but it is too small for me to play with.

What might be better is bore dia greased bullets.

For either case I would use a card or poly wad, then a lubed felt wad (may not be needed with a greased bullet depending on bullet design), then the bullet.

Yes, the bullet is 'bumped up' to fill the grooves on firing. What is the bore on your rifle? I think a .32-20 is something like .306 bore/.314 groove? If so the .308 bullet will be a little big. You could size it down to bore size and shoot it. (note: I just saw your bore is .314 so you'd need to PP a .308 bullet).

Yes, you could engrave the bullets on loading. I have not had good luck with that method, at least not 1-2 MOA type groups, but, others seem to like bullets like the Great Plains, Lee REAL or others.

[kens]

This barrel is advertised at .315/.321". I do have some .006" cotten muslin patch material. If I have .310" soft cast (308 style) bullets, plus a single wrap of that thin muslin that would be .310 + .012" = 322. In theory that would be about right. I have yet to recieve or slug the barrel.

As Nobade mentioned above, I could ream out a Lee mold with a 5/16" drill or, a .315 reamer for a slick sided experimental mold.
If you use a slick bullet, and, you use a grease cookie, then why does a paper patch matter?
It seems that if you cover the powder with a hard dry card, then grease the barrel, then load a naked slick, you should be good to go, no?
What difference is it whether you lube the barrel, or, lube the bullet?

[OverMax]

Anything is possible. Its a matter of just doing rather than asking if it can be done.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Does anyone know of a source (mold) that will drop about a .314 bullet soft lead?
I dont want to drop the money on a custom mold without knowing for sure it will work.
What options might I have?

You might find someone makes an off-the-peg mould for .318 bullets, for the J-bore version of the 8x57, and even a lubesizer die would be cheaper than a custom mould. Or you could make a simple die. The cheapest way of getting a .315in. reamer is probably 8mm. and I think you could get a good enough .318in. starter section with abrasive paper glued to a metal rod, rolled thick enough to make contact on all sides.

Ned Roberts, the "The Muzzle-loading Caplock Rifle" describes how a false muzzle should be cut from the unreamed barrel, firmly attached with its locating pins, and reamed and rifled integrally with it. He illustrates at least one which is unquestionably rifled, and suggests that the first 3/4in. should be enlarged to total bullet diameter with the ends of the rifling bevelled to permit engagement without rearing the patch. Then he says the bullet starter should force the bullet home. Toggle lever bullet starters are far rarer than plain plungers, but their existence suggests force being required.

I don't know if the false muzzle was used to engrave the bullet to full land depth, and I would think that some false muzzles were smooth. But they were certainly used to engrave the bullet in some cases.

[indian joe]

Whoaa !! that's interesting.
If a 5/16 drill bit is .312, we're already real close.
Do you know of a source for reamer size .314, 315, 316 ??

In theory a 5/16 drill makes a 312 hole - like a lot of theories sometimes the result in practice is different :bigsmyl2: I bet most times, you get a hole thats bigger than the drill - give it a light polish to deburr - ya proly on the money.

[charlie b]

The problem of using a bare slick bullet is leading. A lot of friction surface and no lube. Lube grooves in a bullet are there to reduce leading. Lube cookies or wads behind the bullet are there to keep the fouling soft. If you kept the velocity very low a slick might be ok.

Muslin will probably fail as patching but it might be worth a try. I suspect it will try to stick to the bullet.

[Nobade]

The problem of using a bare slick bullet is leading. A lot of friction surface and no lube. Lube grooves in a bullet are there to reduce leading. Lube cookies or wads behind the bullet are there to keep the fouling soft. If you kept the velocity very low a slick might be ok.

Muslin will probably fail as patching but it might be worth a try. I suspect it will try to stick to the bullet.That's why they need to be paper patched. And no, cloth won't work.

[kens]

I have shot .45acp bullets out of a round ball barrel with the muslin patch. Worked well inside 100 yards, because I didnt try any farther.
BUT, that was 1:66 twist and deep grooves.
I'm really surprised that a 230gr truncated cone stabilized at all at 1:66.
The muslin patch that I could recover looked to be shredded like you guys speak of the paper patch confetti.
This is why I am anxious to try shallower groove and faster twist, plus, .308 molds are easy to come by.

[charlie b]

You probably patched like a round ball? Patch came off like a round ball does. I am a little surprised it did not tumble, but, the 230gn ball is not that long either. Was accuracy good or just on the paper? I've had short bullets tumble and still make 6" groups at 100yds.

I think PP would be reasonable for this. The 2 wraps of onion skin I use adds about .008" to the bullet dia. So, a .308 bullet would fit a .314 bore without any sizing (although sizing to bore dia 'sets' the paper to the bullet).

[kens]

it was cloth cut in narrow strips and laid over muzzle in a X , then seated bullet. when the X folded up it wrapped the bullet. I greased the cloth
grouped as good as roundball. it is iron sights and my old tired eyes, and ad hoc windy days.
grouped good enough I could tell it was worth hunting with, and now I'm going farther experiment with this little 32-40 thing.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

In theory a 5/16 drill makes a 312 hole - like a lot of theories sometimes the result in practice is different :bigsmyl2: I bet most times, you get a hole thats bigger than the drill - give it a light polish to deburr - ya proly on the money.

I think that quality drill bits are more accurately dimensioned and sharpened than they used to be. You can get a smooth hole, very close to the drill diameter, by drilling with a couple of undersize drills, and then following up with a drill on which you have oilstone the corners to a fairly small radius.

If you just want to test a combination of diameter, material and patch before laying out cash on a proper mould, you can test these pretty well at close range if the front of the bullet is just drill bit shape, or even filed flat. You don't even need a two-piece mould, with the attendant problem of the bullet sticking if one half is a tiny bit more than half. Just make the first hole in solid metal about ⅛in. in diameter, and you can knock out the bullet with a ⅛in. knockout pin.

[kens]

I'll try a .308 bullet to 'patch up' first.
Then I'll compare that to a slick sided bullet with a modified Lee mold. The Lee mold is $21 online and it comes predrilled with its 2 cavities.
With 2 cavities I could experiment with different diameters and weights.
At this point I wouldnt care if the nose looked like the end of a drill bit, I'm looking for something to stabilize and relatively easy to load.
Anyway, I could control the drilling depth and leave the original Lee nose profile intact, maybe the end result would have a shoulder like a semi-wadcutter.

[kens]

I tried to run a 5/16 drill bit into the Lee 155gr spitzer mold. It came out big, about 318 and the base is swelled.
Who is the guy that can cut gas check base out? Isnt there a guy that customizes some molds?

I couldnt wait to shoot it, I used .32 pistol bullets cast soft, that the only plain base I got near .311. I have a old scope on it and I think the scope is walking, not holding zero.
I do need a false muzzle though, it is very difficult to start a bullet straight without buggering it up.

[kens]

I made a 184gr paper patch slick.
I got a Lee 160gr tumble lube rifle mold and ran a reamer into the gas check and I stopped the reamer at the nose ogive,
I hope this works !!

220506


220507

[kens]

After a long time away from this project, I got back to it. A few trips to the range, and it was cutting the paper as if the rifling was too sharp and cutting the paper patch.
100 or so rounds and this seemed to go away. I get a couple rounds in a group, then it open up, fighting this back an forth, I thought the problem was in scope mount, and shelved it for awhile. Paper patch seems like a PITA.
Today I got proper scope blocks drilled & tapped, with a Litschert 10x scope. I also got a new mold for a better sized boolit and some loob grooves. I'm planning to give up on paper and use a lube groove boolit.