Sensitivity of Black Powder to Static Discharge

[texasmac]

Guys,

If you subscribe to The Single Shot Exchange Magazine and had a chance to read the April issue, you’ve most likely read the article titled, Sensitivity to Black Powder to Static Discharge. If you don’t get the magazine and are interested in reading the article, you can access it by clicking on the following link:
http://www.texas-mac.com/Sensitivity_of_Black_Powder_to_Static_Discharge.ht ml

Wayne

[indian joe]

Guys,

If you subscribe to The Single Shot Exchange Magazine and had a chance to read the April issue, you’ve most likely read the article titled, Sensitivity to Black Powder to Static Discharge. If you don’t get the magazine and are interested in reading the article, you can access it by clicking on the following link:
http://www.texas-mac.com/Sensitivity_of_Black_Powder_to_Static_Discharge.ht ml

Wayne

Article fits my experience !! Impact doesnt do it - have not tried the spark test but have had difficulty igniting the stuff with a match in cold damp weather - ignition temperature of the powder is key and if an electrical spark did not meet that then it should not go off.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

i shot a 1lb can of dupont 2f at 200 yds with a 17 mach iv and it went off.
keep safe,
bruce.

[JBinMN]

Funny you posted this up, since I have had some trouble with static elect. in my powder dispensers on occasion (& particularly just recently) & was thinking of getting some dryer sheets to try to help eliminate the static electricity, but then I ran across an article on putting alum. foil balls in the dryer to remove static electricity from clothes, so I thought maybe some foil in either some strips or small balls in the powder dispenser might help.
So, I read the article & at the bottom the feller says the same thing about lining the powder dispenser with alum. foil.
Like I said, "Funny" to me, coincidence that you bring up/post the article here & I was literally just thinking abut this in the last couple days.

Thanks for sharing the article & posting it!
:)

[sharps4590]

Good article. Echo's my experience. Old wives tales are hard demons to kill. A thought that occurred to me decades ago when there was a lot of hoopla about static electricity and black powder was; if it takes something over 400 degrees F to ignite black powder and there is that much energy/heat in a static discharge then we should have lots of pin-prick burns on our fingertips from every time we discharge static buildup from carpet, car seats, petting our dogs....whatever. How many have had the experience of a static discharge when kissing your wife or girlfriend? As sensitive as our lips are they certainly should have had a pin-prick burn. Ever nursed a burn after a static discharge?

[indian joe]

i shot a 1lb can of dupont 2f at 200 yds with a 17 mach iv and it went off.
keep safe,
bruce.

I believe that would be temperature and or hot spark from hitting the can rather than actual impact doing it !

[indian joe]

Good article. Echo's my experience. Old wives tales are hard demons to kill. A thought that occurred to me decades ago when there was a lot of hoopla about static electricity and black powder was; if it takes something over 400 degrees F to ignite black powder and there is that much energy/heat in a static discharge then we should have lots of pin-prick burns on our fingertips from every time we discharge static buildup from carpet, car seats, petting our dogs....whatever. How many have had the experience of a static discharge when kissing your wife or girlfriend? As sensitive as our lips are they certainly should have had a pin-prick burn. Ever nursed a burn after a static discharge?

Nope ! no burns - not even from the couple of serious jolts from electric fences .

[EDG]

One of the characteristics of any and all electrical charges is they cannot reside on the inside surface of a hollow conductive device or container. You can verify this by reading about a Faraday cage. My family witnessed this when my mother was a teenager. My grandfather drove up to a pasture gate near my great grandfather's farm house. The car was struck by lightening. My grandfather was not harmed and the car continued to run.



If you have an all metal powder measure the static charge can only reside on the outside. Run a grounding conductor to earth ground and static charges will bleed off.

You still have to observe care with other means of ignition. No flames or impact.

[uscra112]

Somehow intuition is telling me not to test this theory. I will still use my all-metal tools when I load black, and take the usual anti-static measures around it. The theory only needs to be wrong once.

[mold maker]

Was the old #5 cast iron Ideal powder measure made with that in mind or just the way things were made at the time? Since I have one would it be a safer measure to use with BP?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't claim to know much about electricity. I've never seen any, but it can be in there, invisible, waiting to leap out and zap you.

I have, however, tried at great length to ignite individual powder grains, with the piezo-electric unit from a defunct blowtorch. I could see the tiny spark leaping from the wire to the grain, without ignition. All static electricity is high voltage, sometimes very high, but the current varies, and I am sure there are forms of static electricity that would do it.

[JBinMN]

I am just interested in the "cling" properties being removed. Not too worried about any "boom" or flareups...

[John Boy]

I don't know how many 'cases' of black powder I have used for reloads using the all plastic Lee Perfect Powder Measure ... and it's still me typing this post

[indian joe]

I don't know how many 'cases' of black powder I have used for reloads using the all plastic Lee Perfect Powder Measure ... and it's still me typing this post

I read the report (supposedly) of the last blowup of the GoEx plant - (Moosic PA - 1990's) - short version - employee goes into dust filled processing room to change defective light switch - forgets to turn the power off first - shorts wires in the switch and starts a fire which then goes BANG big time - the amazing part was he actually had time to run. Same circumstances (or very similar) in dusty grain storage silos have ended in similar fashion. Carelessness and cutting corners has a large part in these incidences. ( and most other "accidents")

[EDG]

It is not a theory. Take any college physics course and static charges are covered. Michael Faraday was a preeminent English physicist of his time.
The Van de Graaff generator uses the static charge characteristics to generate very high voltages.

If you are still chicken find some stainless steel screen and cut a piece to line your plastic powder hopper. Then ground both the screen and the measure.


Somehow intuition is telling me not to test this theory. I will still use my all-metal tools when I load black, and take the usual anti-static measures around it. The theory only needs to be wrong once.

[M-Tecs]

Never tested for static but I have shot Blackpowder in cardboard tubes and a couple of junk 45-70 cases with 22 cal jacketed at about 3,900 FPS without detonation.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Never tested for static but I have shot Blackpowder in cardboard tubes and a couple of junk 45-70 cases with 22 cal jacketed at about 3,900 FPS without detonation.

I think the difference with cans lies in the metal being intensely but momentarily heated by stress. Think of the heat generated by bending a pieceof wire to and fro till it breaks, being concentrated in a single millisecond with no chance to be conducted away.

Michael Faraday was invited to visit the Prime Minister, Sir Robert Peel, who asked him what this... electricity... of his actually was. Faraday answered "I'm sure I don't know, sir, but I'd wager you'll tax it."

[LynC2]

I think the difference with cans lies in the metal being intensely but momentarily heated by stress. Think of the heat generated by bending a pieceof wire to and fro till it breaks, being concentrated in a single millisecond with no chance to be conducted away.

Michael Faraday was invited to visit the Prime Minister, Sir Robert Peel, who asked him what this... electricity... of his actually was. Faraday answered "I'm sure I don't know, sir, but I'd wager you'll tax it."

Hilarious answer and sounds like a politician. :lol:

[mazo kid]

I have a small jar of used clothes dryer sheets, use them to wipe down the powder measures. There are smokeless powders that will cling to the hopper tube also, Trail Boss being one of them. I sometimes use that in my cartridge conversion C&B revolvers.

[bkbville]

Its good to question what we "know"... there is a lot of good knowledge that comes from old-wives tales and other hand me down knowledge, but some of it is, of course, poppycock.

[EDG]

There is a lot of bad information that comes from ignorance, tradition and old wives tales. Most people don't know enough to know the difference.

[sharps4590]

There is a considerable difference between grain dust or BP dust mingled with and confined in an atmosphere replete with oxygen and a hard grain of powder, smokeless or black. Both are combustible/explosive but the difference is akin to gasoline fumes as compared to crude oil.

[indian joe]

There is a considerable difference between grain dust or BP dust mingled with and confined in an atmosphere replete with oxygen and a hard grain of powder, smokeless or black. Both are combustible/explosive but the difference is akin to gasoline fumes as compared to crude oil.

Yeah I get that - but the blowups in powder plants is what the naysayers keep pushing in our faces as evidence of how dangerous our blackpowder is - seeing you mentioned gasoline - I would way rather have a leaky can of blackpowder in my garage than a leaky can of lawnmower fuel - yet nobody bats an eyelid handling gasoline - different ? yes for sure - but I reckon a lot of politics involved in the rules around powder.

[sharps4590]

I couldn't agree more, joe, on all counts.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yeah I get that - but the blowups in powder plants is what the naysayers keep pushing in our faces as evidence of how dangerous our blackpowder is - seeing you mentioned gasoline - I would way rather have a leaky can of blackpowder in my garage than a leaky can of lawnmower fuel - yet nobody bats an eyelid handling gasoline - different ? yes for sure - but I reckon a lot of politics involved in the rules around powder.

Yes, gasoline and various common solvents, or their vapour, are liable to come sneaking out looking for trouble, while powder stays where it is put. Gasoline combines with the oxygen from about nine times its weight in air too, so a pound of it far more energy than a pound of powder, which contains its own. The phrase "bat an eyelid" takes me back, for more than forty years ago I was involved in a gasoline fire (someone else's fault, honest!) on a boat. My burns turned out trivial in the extreme, but I had a half-minute or so coming to terms with blindness before I discovered than my eyelashes were fused together. That is what quick reactions get you. Clean living, I shouldn't wonder.

Politics, and some obscure civil servants sitting in back rooms making a good living more easily than most of us, do come into it. In the UK black powder requires a licence which smokeless powder doesn't, the reason apparently being that when smokeless was invented, Gladstone had just solved the Irish problem. We have recent controls on "explosives precursors" such as high-concentration ammonium nitrate, sodium chlorate etc. They aren't unduly troublesome for the conventional user, but a great nuisance for someone who just wants a one-time gun bluing solution. The point is, the IRA got beaten with them freely available and in murderous use.

[Bent Ramrod]

There’s also the considerable difference in a material’s behavior that associates with the scale of operations. Nobody thinks of grounding when they put ten gallons of gasoline in their car, but the trucker who puts 10,000 gallons in the gas station tanks grounds his setup well.

A re-enactor can carry a horn full of black powder around for days, even though the sloshing around in the horn generates static. The manufacturer who is blending 2500-lb batches had better have his grounding checked monthly.

Static electricity is a surface phenomenon, and surface area relates to quantity available. The fact that somebody can’t set off a little bit of the stuff does little to comfort someone who has to handle large quantities. And, of course, there are those things that just can’t be brought into laboratories and made to do their trick over and over again, like trained seals...

The weirdest one I heard about was black powder that CIL was using in their safety fuse. This stuff accumulated static (as does everything that touches something else, over and over), but some property in the composition did not allow it to dissipate. It held the static charge, which was insulated in when the wrappings were put over the powder train in the safety fuse.

A roll of CIL fuse was thus a long, skinny capacitor. When a length of it was burned, the static would migrate into the unburned portion of the powder, and, as the column got shorter and shorter, the potential would go higher and higher. Eventually, a spark would jump from the end of the powder to the initiator in the top of the blasting cap, setting it off prematurely. For somebody who had cut a nice long length of fuse to enable a leisurely walk out of the danger zone, this early explosion was not a pleasant surprise.

So a law was passed that any lengths of capped fuse sold had to have a metal staple through the end touching the blasting cap, which safely drained off the potential before a spark could form. Even after the static problem went away, as mysteriously as it had arrived, the staple still had to be there. I’d see occasional samples of CIL capped fuses with the staple, and this was the explanation I got.

The prudent practices for handling energetic materials have, literally, been “written in blood,” and for the express purpose of getting workmen through a career in handling such stuff. You can get away with something on the basis of what somebody has “proved” he can’t do for a long time, if you’re lucky. I stick to the established procedures, myself. The only thing I’m convinced of is that anything can happen, given enough time.

[BrentD]

There’s also the considerable difference in a material’s behavior that associates with the scale of operations.

Darn good point.

[17nut]

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

[EDG]

Many years ago I worked at a military base towing helicopters to and from maintenance. Each time I towed one out of the maintenance hangar it had to be refueled. Each time the pumper had to attach a grounding cable to prevent a fire hazard.

[Harter66]

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

I saw a similar video demonstration to this . The individual was working out a piezoelectric discharge ignition for an in line ML design . As I recall his demonstration of the pass through and over was done with a few kernels and a volume of something like 70-80 gr of powder and forcing conduction through the pile .

2 points of interest .
First is the graphite conductor argument . IE the polished and/or graphite impacted powder or otherwise flow/anticling/misc coatings keep the charge on the surface of the powder . In doing so they prevent core heating .

Second and I'm sure there is a physics guy here handy to make science out of mechanics .
The electric spark lacks mass and longevity relitive to any powder heavier than heavy dust . So the ignition of it until it actually reaches and retains ignition temp and a spark won't happen . Meanwhile a barely visible shard of sand/glass/iron from a frizin , cap or primer is more than enough because of the temperature and contact duration . Effectively the hot "spark" is a red to white hot flame vs hot gas plasma that loses heat on discharge while it's still trying to build heat .

If an electrode like a very cold deep reach spark plugs were used and discharged through a raw dust powder inside something like a pyrodex pellet the electric spark might work better .

The thing about our static discharge is that it lacks mass and duration in even a full pound of powder . Scale that up to 5000# and a lighting strike with dust in the air at possibly ignition levels and you have a totally different situation that will most likely woof , bang or boom .

For what it's worth based on life experience , the Civil war BP plants aren't nearly as different , in terms of gross design , as you would like to think from 1990s built explosives handling facilities .

[M-Tecs]

As a kid I witnessed a grain elevator explosion. For the non-rural types grain elevators are large storage silo's. Grains of wheat are barely flammable. Wheat dust on the other hand is highly flammable/explosive. While I am not interested enough to do the test I would be interested to see how black powder dust reacts to static discharge.

[indian joe]

As a kid I witnessed a grain elevator explosion. For the non-rural types grain elevators are large storage silo's. Grains of wheat are barely flammable. Wheat dust on the other hand is highly flammable/explosive. While I am not interested enough to do the test I would be interested to see how black powder dust reacts to static discharge.

While its fun TALKIN about all this stuff - at the loading press is no place to be conducting experiments - somebody commented a while back "if you still chicken......." well hell yeah I am chicken enough to be careful. I believe the static electricity ignition thing has been way overstated for blckpowder - same for impact - bash it with a hammer - nothing happens - but I have lit the stuff with the spark from an angle grinder at twenty feet.

[M-Tecs]

While its fun TALKIN about all this stuff - at the loading press is no place to be conducting experiments -

Who stated anytime about conducting tests at the loading press????????

[indian joe]

Who stated anytime about conducting tests at the loading press????????

If you are still chicken find some stainless steel screen and cut a piece to line your plastic powder hopper.

[indian joe]

Who stated anytime about conducting tests at the loading press????????

If you are still chicken find some stainless steel screen and cut a piece to line your plastic powder hopper.

[Fly]

Let me chime in here please. Threads as this go all over the place & confuse people. So lets make this as
simple as possible cause it is. Heat is what sets off black powder. This started out with static electricity.
You all know it generate very little heat. My tig welder uses high frequency to start the weld. HF is like static
& generates very low heat. I have tried many times to ignite BP but can,t.

What generates heat in electricity is amperage not Voltage. Like a stun gun it generates a lot of volts that
will knock you down. But will not burn you. The light switch deal Indian Joe brought up shows what I,m saying.
The switch is only 110 volts but with a lot of amps. We have all seen the heat a 110 v extension cord or lamp cord
can generate when shorted out. BP is safe if you keep it away from heat, like hot sparks. Hot sparks are what ignites
flintlock rifles. (wink) Hope this clears this up some.

Fly

[M-Tecs]

If you are still chicken find some stainless steel screen and cut a piece to line your plastic powder hopper.

What is your problem?

[indian joe]

What is your problem?

Didnt realise I had one :shock:

[indian joe]

Let me chime in here please. Threads as this go all over the place & confuse people. So lets make this as
simple as possible cause it is. Heat is what sets off black powder. This started out with static electricity.
You all know it generate very little heat. My tig welder uses high frequency to start the weld. HF is like static
& generates very low heat. I have tried many times to ignite BP but can,t.

What generates heat in electricity is amperage not Voltage. Like a stun gun it generates a lot of volts that
will knock you down. But will not burn you. The light switch deal Indian Joe brought up shows what I,m saying.
The switch is only 110 volts but with a lot of amps. We have all seen the heat a 110 v extension cord or lamp cord
can generate when shorted out. BP is safe if you keep it away from heat, like hot sparks. Hot sparks are what ignites
flintlock rifles. (wink) Hope this clears this up some.

Fly

good answer !!!

[John in PA]

An interesting problem that developed in the American Civil War was occasional premature shell bursts inside the bore of the larger caliber rifled artillery upon firing. The Ordnance Department finally figured out that it was friction of the bursting charge caused by centrifugal force of the shell accelerating and rotating in the bore, both friction of powder against the rough walls of the iron casting of the shell cavity, as well as friction of the grains of coarse powder against each other due to the inertia of the charge itself. They spent quite a bit of experimentation developing anti-friction coatings for powder and cavity alike to lessen the probability of this occurrence. Fortunately, not a problem for us to reckon with.

[john.k]

Anyone who has worked in a refinery would have seen a safety demonstration of a high static charge set up in petroleum liquid just by pumping into a container.Fuel sold has a static dispersant added to eliminate static buildup.....The static charge needs to reach a certain energy level before it will ignite vapors or gases or dusts.Some very low,like acetylene oxygen mixes,some quite high hydrocarbon air mixes.Blackpowder will have a certain energy threshhold,a spark with higher energy will ignite.....And according to Davis,blackpowder does ignite by a blow,and gives tables of tests of explosive initiation energies."Chemistry of Powder and Explosives " T Davis.

[bigted]

What i find very interesting ( being an arm chair delver in human behaviour) is the ability of any of us to take offense to a word or phrase written or spoken that inspires a rush of heat in our mind that turns into anger without any seemingly "just cause".

This thread is prime example of a near miss of the above statement.

The word CHICKEN is thought of by many as a derogative term and by a few as just an example of being skittage of an action or phrase.

The term " being CHICKEN" takes me ... for example ... back to being taunted into doing something that will either injure me or cause mega trouble to be visited on my freedom or the seat of my britch's.

Therefore the above phrase " if you are still CHICKEN " refers to a fear of bodily harm and not a direct inference that your masculinity is in danger of being brought into dispute.

Interesting how these things get sometimes fluffed into an explosive exchange with just the slightest amount of spark in the brain to react to stimulation inside our brain as we react to childhood challenges that we bring crashing forward into adult life reactions.

OH YEA

And i use all plastic measures with all powders to include black with nary a thought of problems. I buy my powder in PLASTIC containers and think nothing of it. Seems like this comes and goes from time to time with the same old answers and questions ... so goes life and the circles it seems to travel in.

WHEWWW!

[indian joe]

What i find very interesting ( being an arm chair delver in human behaviour) is the ability of any of us to take offense to a word or phrase written or spoken that inspires a rush of heat in our mind that turns into anger without any seemingly "just cause".

This thread is prime example of a near miss of the above statement.

The word CHICKEN is thought of by many as a derogative term and by a few as just an example of being skittage of an action or phrase.

The term " being CHICKEN" takes me ... for example ... back to being taunted into doing something that will either injure me or cause mega trouble to be visited on my freedom or the seat of my britch's.

Therefore the above phrase " if you are still CHICKEN " refers to a fear of bodily harm and not a direct inference that your masculinity is in danger of being brought into dispute.

Interesting how these things get sometimes fluffed into an explosive exchange with just the slightest amount of spark in the brain to react to stimulation inside our brain as we react to childhood challenges that we bring crashing forward into adult life reactions.

OH YEA

And i use all plastic measures with all powders to include black with nary a thought of problems. I buy my powder in PLASTIC containers and think nothing of it. Seems like this comes and goes from time to time with the same old answers and questions ... so goes life and the circles it seems to travel in.

WHEWWW!


hmmm
"if you are still chicken" says to me ---so you are so scared of something that ..I.. know for sure will do ..you.. no harm whatsoever that you take these foolish extra precautions wasting time and energy in stupid safety measures . ....

[john.k]

Havent heard the term "chicken" since i was at primary school 60 years ago.....generally just before you did something like jumping off the roof,or riding your bike down "dead mans hill".

[Woodnbow]

Many years ago I worked at a military base towing helicopters to and from maintenance. Each time I towed one out of the maintenance hangar it had to be refueled. Each time the pumper had to attach a grounding cable to prevent a fire hazard.

And JP5 (or whatever is currently in use) is not prone to explosion in the normal sense of the word.

[Woodnbow]

I read the report (supposedly) of the last blowup of the GoEx plant - (Moosic PA - 1990's) - short version - employee goes into dust filled processing room to change defective light switch - forgets to turn the power off first - shorts wires in the switch and starts a fire which then goes BANG big time - the amazing part was he actually had time to run. Same circumstances (or very similar) in dusty grain storage silos have ended in similar fashion. Carelessness and cutting corners has a large part in these incidences. ( and most other "accidents")

A grain elevator exploded in my hometown when I was in my early teens. Grain, wood, or blackpowder dust is explosively flammable.

[indian joe]

If you are still chicken find some stainless steel screen and cut a piece to line your plastic powder hopper.

I dont believe I wrote that (it was posted twice) so double dont believe I wrote it
several reasons I dont believe I wrote it

mainly - I have NEVER - not once EVER - loaded blackpowder through a powder measure with a hopper - I do not do that - I do a lot of my powder charging from a powder horn into the empty brass - if not that then I use a scoop measure out of a wide mouth container on the bench direct to the scale tray then drop tube it

So the idea of using a mechanical measure with a hopper (any kind) is foreign to me -- I think somebody scammed me on this one .......

[GregLaROCHE]

I think I remember a video where someone tried to set BP off with a taser. It wouldn’t ignite. I’m pretty sure it was BP, but it could have been smokeless. It was a while ago.

[Outpost75]

Not black powder, but I can tell you that static discharge will detonate accumulated primer dust in a Camdex loading machine which is improperly maintained and not grounded. Operator died and NJ State Fire Marshall wrote the report in the NFPA Journal 1980s.

[M-Tecs]

From the people that make their own BP we know that BP dust and granular BP is not the same in regards to static discharge.

No real suprise there since that is true of lots of very fine dusts.

[indian joe]

I bet you could inject Outpost's "poorly maintained" into most of the blowups (blackpowder factories, grain silos, many other places) that have happened over the years - add a dose or two of casual to the mix (familiarity breeds contempt) - then we have 10 % of the population whose IQ is so low that the US military cannot make use of them (according to Jordan Petersen) - and another -?-% who seem to believe in periodic cleansing of the gene pool via risky acts of random stupidity.

[M-Tecs]

I dont believe I wrote that (it was posted twice) so double dont believe I wrote it
several reasons I dont believe I wrote it


So you are claiming you didn't write posts 32, 34, 35 & 38???????????

If you want to know have No_1 check the IP addresses.

[indian joe]

So you are claiming you didn't write posts 32, 34, 35 & 38???????????

If you want to know have No_1 check the IP addresses.

just that double post (34 &35) 32 I wrote for sure and also 38

water under the bridge - but do ya get my point ? I never in my life used a meter type measure for blackpowder - not because I was against the idea so much as it just dont fit the way I do things. I recognise stuff I write and that double post I dont .................

I am a bit sceptic on static ignition of black - we know it needs a hot spark - 360 degrees ? whatever -- that would take a serious static charge to generate? - or would it ? I get zapped if I slide on a car seat then touch the steering wheel - spark 3/4 inch long and a decent little jolt ---and yeah dust is a different animal to grains for sure, a film of dust will flash burn real fast.

[country gent]

Even worse in elevatirs and some grain milling is the dust thats stirred up and suspended in the air. floating just like the fumes from flammable liquids its a bomb if it goes.

[Travisbishop]

I've been making and shooting black powder since 1974 and I've yet to have any touch off from static. I'm not saying it can't happen though. I don't plan on trying it out either.

[willy]

I see a lot of people don’t believe static electricity can set off a powder charge,,,I am one who has experienced it happen,, I was loading my second shot into my 1841 Mississippi rifle after swabbing the bore from the first shot to make sure there were no hot embers in the barrel ( safety first),,When I dropped the charge of 70 grains down the barrel I just reached for a mini ball and WHOOOOOSH!!! The charge in the barrel went off,,, lucky for me I always practice safety and wasn’t over the barrel when it went off,, the only harm done was burnt eyebrows and it blew the cherry off my cigar..The only thing I can think of is it was static electricity that set the charge off… Remember the most important safety with all firearms isn’t on the gun,,it’s in your head,,stay safe.

[Don McDowell]

Hmm lit cigar, loose powder charge in the barrel of a just fired rifle, and it was static electricity....

[M-Tecs]

I see a lot of people don’t believe static electricity can set off a powder charge,,,I am one who has experienced it happen,, I was loading my second shot into my 1841 Mississippi rifle after swabbing the bore from the first shot to make sure there were no hot embers in the barrel ( safety first),,When I dropped the charge of 70 grains down the barrel I just reached for a mini ball and WHOOOOOSH!!! The charge in the barrel went off,,, lucky for me I always practice safety and wasn’t over the barrel when it went off,, the only harm done was burnt eyebrows and it blew the cherry off my cigar..The only thing I can think of is it was static electricity that set the charge off… Remember the most important safety with all firearms isn’t on the gun,,it’s in your head,,stay safe.

That gave me the biggest smile of the day...................Thanks

[indian joe]

Hmm lit cigar, loose powder charge in the barrel of a just fired rifle, and it was static electricity....

:bigsmyl2:

[45-110]

When this happens while musket shooting it is almost always on the 2nd shot. The first shot ignites a left over thread/lint/crud from the previous cleaning. Not static electricity! NSS-A shooters frequently wear a leather glove on the ramrod hand for pre ignitions.
kw

[Red River Rick]

Hmm lit cigar, loose powder charge in the barrel of a just fired rifle, and it was static electricity....

That's what I was thinking as well...................static embers from a cigar!

[Don McDowell]

[emoji15][emoji23] I think you nailed it Rick


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Thundermaker]

Methinks the gentleman may have been a bit facetious.

[sharps4590]

I see a lot of people don’t believe static electricity can set off a powder charge,,,I am one who has experienced it happen,, I was loading my second shot into my 1841 Mississippi rifle after swabbing the bore from the first shot to make sure there were no hot embers in the barrel ( safety first),,When I dropped the charge of 70 grains down the barrel I just reached for a mini ball and WHOOOOOSH!!! The charge in the barrel went off,,, lucky for me I always practice safety and wasn’t over the barrel when it went off,, the only harm done was burnt eyebrows and it blew the cherry off my cigar..The only thing I can think of is it was static electricity that set the charge off… Remember the most important safety with all firearms isn’t on the gun,,it’s in your head,,stay safe.


Surely this was posted "tongue in cheek" and in jest......surely...

[GregLaROCHE]

There was a video a few years ago where they tried to set off BP with a taser. They couldn’t do it.

[john.k]

medical evidence that 60mA causes cardiac arrest......so its likley tasers are designed to discharge below this level..................and define static discharge.....other day a tree in my field was blown to bits ,and the bits set on fire by a static discharge....so theres static discharges and static discharges.

[FrankJD]

I guess using my old Lyman powder measure loaded with black powder will kill me sooner than later .... been about 20 years later so far.

[bangerjim]

This is sure an OLDY-MOLDY thread from the past!!!!!!!!!

There are videos all over the web about people trying to light BP with static charges. No success I have seen.

Even using a "FORD COIL" (old ignition box) which gives a good continuous spark did not set it off. The tiny static that is generated from clothing and personal items is much less and should definitely not set off gun powders.

Before asking me for proof, please do an in-depth search for yourself on the net!!!!!!!!!!! I do not have the time.

There are certain physical instances where static can trigger explosions in grain silos and powdered material transfer lines. But that has to do with the U/LEL (upper/lower explosive limits) rating of the dusty material, temperature, and humidity. And anytime you suspend tiny dust particles of just about anything (mainly carbon-based) in lots of air, you can create a potentially explosive environment. A pile of gun powder sitting on a bench is NOT such an environment.

And a tree being struck by lightning is a totally different phenomenon.

[indian joe]

This is sure an OLDY-MOLDY thread from the past!!!!!!!!!

There are videos all over the web about people trying to light BP with static charges. No success I have seen.

Even using a "FORD COIL" (old ignition box) which gives a good continuous spark did not set it off. The tiny static that is generated from clothing and personal items is much less and should definitely not set off gun powders.

Before asking me for proof, please do an in-depth search for yourself on the net!!!!!!!!!!! I do not have the time.

There are certain physical instances where static can trigger explosions in grain silos and powdered material transfer lines. But that has to do with the U/LEL (upper/lower explosive limits) rating of the dusty material, temperature, and humidity. And anytime you suspend tiny dust particles of just about anything (mainly carbon-based) in lots of air, you can create a potentially explosive environment. A pile of gun powder sitting on a bench is NOT such an environment.

And a tree being struck by lightning is a totally different phenomenon.

also all of the grain elevators I ever saw had electrical wiring that could easily malfunction. Those kind of sparks have plenty of amperage attached

[sharps4590]

I'm not an EE but I was an electrician for 43 years. To generate heat from a static discharge such as off carpet, car seats, your wife's or your nose or the dog or cat, the time element has to be considered. Static is nearly always high voltage/low amperage. That generated in a home/shop situation is incomparable to a lightning strike. For the static discharges we encounter in home/shop they are not going to generate enough amperage OR be of a long enough duration to ignite anything. That home static can be a nuisance there is no doubt but dangerous? Not hardly. There's enough real things to be worried about as to concern ones self with that.

jim and joe....and others, could not be any more correct.

[Buzzard II]

I'll just keep using my old Belding & Mull. I'm happy with it and it's accurate!

[Brimstone]

I love how bent people can get over old snake oil stories.
Powder meters, flasks, reloading tools and dies since the 1890s
and not a drop of proof of a bench side black powder accident
yet articles from the 1890s onward mention blown up primers and
priming tools, mangled fingers...not an eye batted.

[super6]

305435

Died from a static induced fire ball Making The black, Rip Todd Kolwilz, The letter is from his daughter.

[indian joe]

305435

Died from a static induced fire ball Making The black, Rip Todd Kolwilz, The letter is from his daughter.

Sad but the letter tells us nothing except she lost her dad - do you have a police report or an investigation by a proper qualified expert ?
could be a hundred other sources for ignition - dust and an electric motor - sparks in the contacts of a switch - metal shards in the mill.etc
It takes a HOt spark and that is difficult to achieve with static but easy by many other means.

[Road_Clam]

I tried igniting a small amount of 4f using a static spark type bbq grille igniter . Nothing , nada , zip. Touch a bbq grill flame lighter and an instantanious POOF. Call me a fool , i have no concerns over electric induced static spark ignition of BP.

[indian joe]

I tried igniting a small amount of 4f using a static spark type bbq grille igniter . Nothing , nada , zip. Touch a bbq grill flame lighter and an instantanious POOF. Call me a fool ,

i have no concerns over spark ignition of BP.

ya might want to consider how you phrase that last bit ----spark ignition is how flintlocks work ---if the spark has enough heat attached - ignition will happen - most static dont have the required heat - I dont wanna run the experiment that figures out where that line is crossed or if it is .
We see harvester fires every year that destroy million dollar machines - can largely be avoided by dragging a static ground discharge device - i dont know the science of that but never went in a lupin or pea crop without and didnt have a fire.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.nswfarmers.org.au/NSWFA/Posts/The_Farmer/Environment/Hot_headers_how_to_reduce_fire_risk.aspx#:~:text=F ires%20in%20harvesters%20are%20far%20too%20common% 20but,in%20Australian%20paddocks%20are%20likely%20 to%20catch%20fire.


Static electricity is often thought to be a cause. It’s not uncommon to feel the zap of a static charge from the machine when you’re out harvesting in dry and dusty conditions. However, Ben White says it’s not the risk many think it is.

“The static energy on a harvester ranges from about 10 millijoules [mJ] to 150mJ, whereas the static energy required to ignite a fire is about 500mJ in a continuous arc,” he says, adding that static electricity does attract dust to the machine, causing fuel to build up.

[GONRA]

GONRA believes it is Really Difficult to demo "static electricity"
black powder ignition safety phenomena.
From what I've read over many decades, you can dig up "tests"
to prove most anything you want on the subject -
one way or another.

With THAT in mind, here's an APPARENT
"black powder static discharge story"
from sane gun nuts - some I knew at the time:

Important article in a Corporate Fish & Game 1994 Newsletter:

"Joe Shooter" has dealt with black powder for 30 years w/o any problems.
He had a real accident in December 1993.
Just before the incident, he got a nice static shock touching the light switch place in a first floor bathroom.
He noted a wall hygrometer in his family room that read 8-10% humidity at the time.

He was wearing rubber sole shoes, cotton/rayon pants, cotton/synthetic shirt and heavy wool sweater.
Whilst standing on a rubber mat with a synthetic fiber topping, he unscrewed the lid
of the powder can that had perhaps 1/2 - 3/4 lb. MIXTURE of FFg and FFFg black powder.
It exploded with an orange ball of flame and a loud "whoosh".
He had 10 days first class Big City Burn Center care, maybe more PT, to get straightened out.
Note that his safety glasses helped, but he still had eye problems for a couple days.
(Looks like its best to wear GOGGLES folks!) Powder can just split at every seam.
There was enuf heat to mess up plastic in the vicinity...

He suggests, among other things:

1. Handle only minimum powder quantities.

2. Get a "dial hygrometer" and make sure relative humidity is > 30%.

3. Get a grounding strap from Radio Shack, wear it.

[indian joe]

https://www.nswfarmers.org.au/NSWFA/Posts/The_Farmer/Environment/Hot_headers_how_to_reduce_fire_risk.aspx#:~:text=F ires%20in%20harvesters%20are%20far%20too%20common% 20but,in%20Australian%20paddocks%20are%20likely%20 to%20catch%20fire.


Static electricity is often thought to be a cause. It’s not uncommon to feel the zap of a static charge from the machine when you’re out harvesting in dry and dusty conditions. However, Ben White says it’s not the risk many think it is.

“The static energy on a harvester ranges from about 10 millijoules [mJ] to 150mJ, whereas the static energy required to ignite a fire is about 500mJ in a continuous arc,” he says, adding that static electricity does attract dust to the machine, causing fuel to build up.

I started driving these things in 1963 which of course counts for little in the face of a edicated engineer (Ben whatisname) - by some strange coincidence I never burnt one - musta been lucky eh?

[Road_Clam]

ya might want to consider how you phrase that last bit ----spark ignition is how flintlocks work ---if the spark has enough heat attached - ignition will happen - most static dont have the required heat - I dont wanna run the experiment that figures out where that line is crossed or if it is .
We see harvester fires every year that destroy million dollar machines - can largely be avoided by dragging a static ground discharge device - i dont know the science of that but never went in a lupin or pea crop without and didnt have a fire.

Good comment, edited my post for better clarification.

[omgb]

The old #5 was most definitely made with BP in mind. All of the old catalogs say as much. I have a very good one but rarely use it these days as a Belding and Mull works well for me.

[super6]

indian joe, Do you run your ball mill in your house? There are a lot of ball mill story's out there of exploding mills Just seems like a no brainier, What caused that to happen? You use lead as the media? Don't make a difference.

[M-Tecs]

I started driving these things in 1963 which of course counts for little in the face of a edicated engineer (Ben whatisname) - by some strange coincidence I never burnt one - musta been lucky eh?

The flip side can be stated also. Since the mid 80's my cousin harvests 30,000 acres of grain on land that he owns or leases but once he's done he custom combines/trucks for others. I know one year his operation harvested about 55,000 acres total. Thats 85.9 square miles.

He owns 11 18-wheel tractor trailer rigs just to haul the grain. I don't know how many harvesters he owns since they are never at a single location like the trucks are. I do know he did not us any type of static dissipater until he started having issues with damaging the onboard computers/navigation systems. After he started using chains but he had a major fire in one so he switched to a disk type that penetrates the soil. I built some parts for the protype. They still had a couple of small fires since using the static dissipaters but they did reduce dust buildup so they do provide some benefits. He's had several small fire issues since he started using static dissipaters so he musta been unlucky eh?

His operation was part on a university study on this issue. Shortly after the study he built a fuel/oiling/servicing truck with a very large compressor for dust removal and hasn't had any fire issues of late.

He just sent me this link as to what he does and recommends. He sent some other links but you have to be a member to view them.

https://extension.oregonstate.edu/pub/em-9326
Avoid electrical shorts and static
Blowing several fuses might be a sign of an electrical short that is waiting to spark at the worst moment. It is worth checking hard-to-reach areas for stray or loose wires. Static electricity can also build on combines and create a small spark when discharged. Some earlier studies suggested that static electricity can start combine fires, and drag chains or other devices should be used. However, recent research shows that static electricity likely does not start fires, but is rather listed as a potential cause when poor combine sanitation is also a factor. A single spark is typically not enough to start a fire in a combine, but repeated sparking at the same location can. You can use conductive brushes fitted near rotary components, such as the radiator fan, to reduce static buildup if it becomes an issue. Case-IH sells whiskers for fans on its combines that the company suggests for producers harvesting under fire-prone conditions.


Back to the subject at hand. Can BP be set off with static? Tests show no but those tests weren't done on ultra-fine dust like encountered during ball milling.

[indian joe]

indian joe, Do you run your ball mill in your house? There are a lot of ball mill story's out there of exploding mills Just seems like a no brainier, What caused that to happen? You use lead as the media? Don't make a difference.

replied to this earlier and its vanished!!
NO NO NO its 200yards from the main house and a half mile to the next neighbor.
Mill runs in the end of an open ended tin shed attached to (part of) my workshop - its ten feet to the side walls and roof, daylight one way ahead and 30 feet to the back wall - if the thing did blow not much harm gonna come from it - some stuff I have stored there would get maimed - some shrapnel holes in some old tin . its switched remotely from about 50 feet with a wall between - only run it at night for couple reasons 1) cooler and more humidity lessens the odds a bit 2) night time if theres any static buildup you can see it !
drive is from a sealed motor on a four foot vee belt - internal sparks from an unsealed motor (blokes using salvaged motors from old appliances etc) is a danger point to my mind. Lead media - clean screened ingredients - nothing that is used around the mill gets used for anything else. Barring accidents (like the canister running off the rails) its a pretty safe setup.
My danger point is that large open container of meal when I am blending it before processing pucks, and later when I blend my graded powder, both these happen outside in the yard and in a stainless pot / wooden spoon kept for the purpose. If I get ignition when I'm doing the blending my goose is cooked proper - no question of that. I make sure I am wearing cotton clothes (do that most times anyway)
I have read a couple of factory blowup reports (Goex in the 1990's for one) carelessness with electricity and poor hygiene (dust buildup) figured large in what I read.

[shaune509]

Combines and static. IMHO, static only allows/aids collection of fine dust. Fires are caused by 2 main things, house keeping and maintenance. I.E. collection of flammable dust/chaf and over heating bearing failure. As a side note on static, I have not seen 1985 or newer fuel tank trucks with static strips. I've had sparks when fuel nozzle touches fill port and no fire/explosion, same with a buzbox welder hitting the cap on field repairs. Safety Nazi's always have the sky is falling and pants on fire nanny state ideals.
Shaune509

[M-Tecs]

"Urban legends die hard…The tankwagons with the chain dragging, someone FINALLY figured out THAT did NOTHING…Some fuel delivery companies still connect a ground strap between the truck body and the filler-pipe connection before they connect the hose…This is ALWAYS done when refueling aircraft…"