How a cleaning rod and jag (or tip) can damage a fine shooting bbl

[Shuz]

I've often heard it said, that many guns accuracy is ruined by poor methods of cleaning. For the sake of the "newbies" on this board, as well as us old pharts, How do YOU clean a bbl? Do you use a jag or slotted tip? How tight is your patch? What solvent do you prefer? Have you ever used "Lead Free" cloth strips wound around a copper brush to remove minor traces of lead fouling? Lets have an exchange of ideas and perhaps some do's and don'ts; at least from your perspective.

[MyFlatline]

I doubt anyone here has "ruined" a barrel cleaning but I will sit back and read. I know some that say they bought a "ruined " barrel, so this will be interesting. I am of the mind that aluminum is softer than steel, then I hear about the dirt,sand,mud,asphalt and such is what causes the damage. Flame away.

[white eagle]

I agree Flatline
I have heard that wives tale as long as I can remember
been cleaning rifles for 48 years aint ruined one yet by cleaning

[MyFlatline]

I agree Flatline
I have heard that wives tale as long as I can remember
been cleaning rifles for 48 years aint ruined one yet by cleaning

It will get interesting soon I'm sure :)

[turtlezx]

as long as the rod or brush is softer than steel dont see any damage could occure ?

[Kraschenbirn]

I've been using nothing but brass jags and carbon-fiber rods for quite a few years. Before that, I had both stainless steel (one-piece) and brass (take-down) rods with brass jags. Those old rods, btw, are still racked over my workbench. Still got a couple of old hardwood take-down rods with brass ferrules and tip for shotgun, too.

Bill

[tazman]

Just about the only way to ruin a barrel with a cleaning rod is to insert the rod(steel) from the muzzle without using a guide. Lots of scrubbing and repeated cleaning in this manner can wear the rifling and crown area at the muzzle. I must add, the only rifles I have seen this happen to were military rifles that got cleaned a lot that way.
If you clean from the breach and use a rod guide there shouldn't be a problem.

[Petrol & Powder]

There are different schools of thought when it comes to cleaning rods.

Some folks will claim a cleaning rod made from a soft metal such as brass or aluminum cannot damage the steel of a barrel.

Other folks will claim a steel rod is preferable because abrasive debris cannot become embedded in a steel rod.

This debate has existed about as long as cleaning rods have been around.

Jointed cleaning rods can present sharp edges at the joints and most competition rifle shooters avoid them like the plague.

If the jag is made of brass and is properly fitted, the only part of the rod that can contact the bore is the side of the rod and that contact is sliding contact along the length of the rod.

[MyFlatline]

Just about the only way to ruin a barrel with a cleaning rod is to insert the rod(steel) from the muzzle without using a guide. Lots of scrubbing and repeated cleaning in this manner can wear the rifling and crown area at the muzzle. I must add, the only rifles I have seen this happen to were military rifles that got cleaned a lot that way.
If you clean from the breach and use a rod guide there shouldn't be a problem.

For over 40 years have cleaned from the muzzle, How do you clean a semi or pump from the breach ? Have never seen a crown protector until a few years ago when they were invented.

Not bashing Taz, just this discussion has always been a burr in my saddle.

[country gent]

Several ways to harm a barrel with cleaning procedures are 1) using to small a rod, rod flexes rubbing on barrel. this can be increased with tight fitting brushes and patch jag configurations. 2) Not keeping the rod centered and true, again this allows the rod to rub the bore. 3) allowing the rod to become coated with debris or a dirty rod thus becoming a lap. Rods should be wiped down every few passes until most of the crud is removed. 4) Cleaning from the muzzle, harder to keep rod centered and true and more direct contact. Cleaning from the breech you have the chmber to give some alighnment to the rod. 5) improper use of chemical cleaners, soaking to long or mixing with others that can cause etching. 6) more than one pass of a patch after its carried and impregnated with crud it becomes a lapp also. The carbon fouling is abrasive and can cut steel. Put a zip lock bag over the muzzle push patch thru and remove dropping in bag.

Things to help 1) is a good rod guide for the action and rod or on rifles that have to be cleaned from muzzle a guide for there. ( On M1A/M14s a 12 gauge shot shell with primer removed works ) 2) A good vise for the firearm to hold it steady. This allows for a straight push thru and more stability. 3) good clean patches and rags to start with. Same with solvents keep them clean. 4) use the jag the way its meant to be used there are wrap jags and push jags. a wrap jag is longer and is meant to have the patch wrapped around it tightly Patch size is more critical with these. A push jag has a pointed small dia tip to pierce and hold the patch and is meant to push the patch thru the bore.

Other damage that can and does occur is most solvent soften bedding materials and wood eventually. To slow this clean rifles upside down so solvents run out the top and not into the bedding. Oils also can have this effect also.
The cleaning cradle can be made from wood some of these are very nice and useable. Purchased from several makers again can be very nice and useable. Or in a bind a medium sized heavy card board box can be used. cut vees in opposite sides lay a clean soft rag over them and lay the rifle in them A box 12" wide and 14-18" long works well here and about 6-8" deep. This will clean a lot of rifles if your careful with it. The homemade one can be set up with spots for jags brushes solvent bottles patches and other tools in the base tray.

When cleaning
mount rifle in cradle upside down. Lay a rag under action. Install rod guide in action. Place bag over muzzle. wrap or center a patch on the correct jag. push thru bore out muzzle and drop in bag on reverse stroke. Remove rod and wipe clean. repeat. check patches as you go. when they are not showing the heavy crud. Intsall brush on rod and apply chosen solvent in bore. Brush bore using firm straight force keeping rod as straight and true as possible.
A simple rod guide can be made from a fired case by drilling the primer pocket out to rod size +.005. lightly deburr inside and out. Again rod guides can be made or purchased. Most rods come with a little guide for the muzzle that works somewhat well. Its hard to hold them and start a jag or brush at the same time.
On lever actions pumps and some semi autos a rag in the action catches the crud and solvents, cleaning upside down lets it run out the top. This keeps the slop out of the action bedding. There was a little action insert for Garands and M1a/M14s also.

[country gent]

I bought several rods in the 80s that had the muzzle protectors with them and I suspect they were available before that. Jointed rods where there are sharp edges exposed can also cause damage.

[tazman]

For over 40 years have cleaned from the muzzle, How do you clean a semi or pump from the breach ? Have never seen a crown protector until a few years ago when they were invented.

Not bashing Taz, just this discussion has always been a burr in my saddle.

No offense taken.
When I am working with my pump(Rem 760) I use a string/rope cleaner from the breech or a rod with a fitted guide from the muzzle and work slowly and carefully. As I said, the only rifles I have personally seen that were damaged by cleaning from the muzzle were military rifles which were cleaned with jointed steel rods from the muzzle. In many instances, the rifling at the muzzle were completely worn away while the rifling a couple of inches down the bore were still intact.

[KenT7021]

I normally use one piece coated rods with a jag.The rods need to be clean.M1 rifles especially those used in basic training units normally had damage at the muzzle from the use of the sectioned steel cleaning rods.When I went thru basic the instructors made a bid deal out a man who had the highest score at rifle qualification.He also started basic with a brand new M1.The M1 I had was typical.It was in bad shape,worn muzzle,gas piston on operating rod undersize,and the gas cylinder wasn't in very good shape either.I was an expert at immediate action.

[kens]

All of us damaged our barrels cleaning them. 'All of us' are the people in the muzzle loading game in the late 70's, muzzle loading was at that time at its peak at Friendship Indiana, and the NMLRA.
We clean between every shot, and push a patched ball home, then clean when we got home. All with a wooden ramrod (which frequently broke)
Then came modern technology.......the fiberglass ramrod.....they never broke, they were the next best thing since sliced bread (or so we thought)
All of us wore out the muzzle, the fiberglass turned out to be an abrasive. Everybody's muzzle was wallowed out in the last inch of the muzzle.
Hence, everybody shortened the barrel by an inch and re-crowned.
Now knowing how abrasive fiberglass is, I shudder at the sight of a steel cleaning rod.

[CraigOK]

I use muzzle bore guides and coated one piece ride with swivel handles, and bire snakes for semi autos. Need to get a guide for the muzzle of my revolver.

[country gent]

CraigOK,
Better still for the pistols is a stand similar to the ones sold for loading cap and ball revolvers. this holds the pistol steady and in position allowing for both hands to alighn and run the rod. on revolvers with the cylinder open a rag can be draped thru to catch crud also. Another help is to use the appropriate length rod for the pistol. a 22 cal rod 6" long is much stiffer and easier to handle than a 12" 22 cal rod. I have a little brass rod I made that's 4" long. Its the handiest thing for the snub guns and short barreled pistols. Its also very good for cleaning chambers in cylinders. Its nothing special dosnt rotate just a length of brass rod glued into a large file handle. cleaning barrels I let it swivel in my hand. chambers I stroke a few times and give it a spin or 2.

[fiberoptik]

I use a cut down 12 gauge shell minus primer for a guide in my Swiss K-31. Fits just fine.
Note on brushes & solvents— Solvents that remove copper also dissolve bras brushes. Any wonder why they always show copper? Also said brushes need rinsing from solvents with alcohol in order to stop the solvents actions on them. Oh, let’s not forget DON’T mix solvents!!


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[725]

I use all manner of rods & jigs and just use care. Since I don't treat 'em rough, they don't get damaged. Lots of Ed's Red.

[dale2242]

There is an excellent article at the Accurate shooter site.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/barrel-cleaning-debate/
It seems each world class shooter has their own idea about cleaning barrels.
Personally, I use a rod guide whenever possible.
Plastic brushes and nickel coated jags are use to keep from getting false copper readings.
2 patches through the bore wet with BoreTech Eliminator and 5 strokes with the plastic brush.
2-5 dry patches.
Repeat until clean. It usually only takes a couple of cycles. ...dale

[GhostHawk]

I have a airgun cleaning tool. Essentially a piece of stout cord in a plastic sleeve.

Because it is designed for .177 airgun bores slipping it down a .30 cal bore is childs play.
Then it is just a matter of learning how big a square of patch to cut for a tight fit.

I prefer to work from the breech just on general principles.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQppthRe-5O6vejjbl8Dza4i29I-2lh3cja-MT-OMifF0T3ha-fSA



I got mine for free with some parts I ordered for an Airgun.

[ioon44]

The Accurate shooter site is a great source for a lot tips and ideas. I use rod guide's and coated cleaning rod's.

I traded for a Rem 700 in .308 win at a gun show and found out too late the chamber had a bur at the start of the chamber that was pealing a strip of brass when cambering a round, after looking at the chamber with a bore scope it looked like probably a steel cleaning rod had been used with out a rod guide. I was able to remove the bur and the gun shoots fine now.

[Walter Laich]

rod guides for both pistols and rifles.

[lightman]

It does not take much to damage the crown. You may not see much difference in a factory rifle but it will be more noticeable in an accurate custom or target rifle.

Personally, I clean from the breach when possible using a bore guide and a coated rod. I'll use a muzzle protector of some type if cleaning from the muzzle.

Jointed rods are probably more guilty than anything, along with aggressive use.

There are as many ways to clean a bore as there are shooters, so pick a method that works for you.

[evoevil]

I used a few different ways, never ruined a barrel. Just lately had a Bartlein barrel installed. I use Hoppies #9 a Tipton fiber rod and a brass cleaning jag. I don't use the "new" pastes in my barrels. wet a patch push it through and used dry patches until they come out clean, Really dirty powder may get a brass brush dipped in the hoppies and pushed through.

[Shuz]

Has anyone ever damaged a bbl with a cleaning rod edge that appeared because the patch was too tight and the tip screwed out about 1/4 to 3/8"(est), thus exposing the edge of the rod, and when the stainless steel one piece rod flexed because the patch was way too tight, it jammed the edge into the rifling? .25 caliber is the issue here.

[243winxb]

Bronze rifle brush stuck in bore.

Opened a new pack of 243/6mm brushes to clean my Rem 40xb. Put it on my steel, nylon coated rod. Run it into the barrel from the chamber end, done this hundreds of times before.

Tight fit, pushing a bit harder. No go. Tried to back out, no go. Took a lot of muscle to push out the muzzle. Bent my steel rod.

Do check the diameter of new brushes with a micrometer first. My new rule.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/deweyparkerhalestyleriflecleaningjag.501/full

[bkbville]

I'd like to see an actual scientific study done on this - I've been skeptical about wearing out muzzles from cleaning rods and such when they are softer, generally much softer, than the barrel steel... Wearing off muzzle steel from a bronze brush, or banging an aluminum rod seems pretty darn challenging.

Could be ignorance on my part, but I've never experienced such damage and always suspected its mostly bull... useful though if you sell a bunch of specialized tools for cleaning rifles.

[dondiego]

Aluminum is soft, but it does oxidize. Aluminum oxide is used for man made sharpening stones and sandpaper grit. Soft metals, like aluminum, tend to pick up grit from other sources and it can embed in an aluminum rod over time........just sayin'.

[country gent]

With the abrasive carbon and fouling a soft rod impregnates with this grit becoming a lap or file and will remove the harder material. A lead slug impregnated with the right compound will cut carbide not fast but it does. The aluminum rods impregnated with fouling are long laps if not kept clean.

[243winxb]

Post 84 has a photo. http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?75671-Barrel-Crown/page6

But not from wear.

There were crown photos on the web sight . They were magnafied, showing damage of the crown from cleaning. Pulling the brush back through the crown, if i rembember correctly. They may be a casualty of Photobucket?

Google "rifle crown photos" images.

Photos gone, ty photobucket. http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?63325-Crowns/page2

[Shopdog]

I just use undersized brushes wrapped with Viva brand kitchen "paper" towels.Wifey buys them for me.Anyway,several wraps.....stroke the bore,tear off one layer,pull back through.Pull it all off,repeat.Got the idea 30 or so years ago from Ross Seyfried,American Handgunner.

Viva brand,too expensive for the kitchen,but OK for my guns,haha.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I have cleaned some heavily fouled barrels where the rifling had become indistinct. Took several hours of brushing. Shot fine afterwards.

[Shuz]

I just use undersized brushes wrapped with Viva brand kitchen "paper" towels.Wifey buys them for me.Anyway,several wraps.....stroke the bore,tear off one layer,pull back through.Pull it all off,repeat.Got the idea 30 or so years ago from Ross Seyfried,American Handgunner.

Viva brand,too expensive for the kitchen,but OK for my guns,haha.

Sounds like a great idea! It is kinda what I do with the Lead free cloth that is available from Birchwood Casey and perhaps others.
I simply cut small long strips of about 1/8" and wind them around a small size brass brush. A few passes thru the bore will remove even traces of lead.

[Blackwater]

Most folks wll never shoot or clean enough to do any serious damage to a barrel, even with the worst cleaning rods and equipment and technique. But that doesn't mean that those who DO shoot a lot can't seriously affect their barrels by their cleaning techniques and equipment. Country Gent has it pretty well down pat, and his advice should be read, at least, even if not followed always. Some day it might explain why a very nice gun suddenly becomes a "has-been." But most will not believe it until they see it. And as stated by several above, it's often (if not usually) the grit embedded on a rod that causes the progressive damage, and NOT the rod itself. One would have to be pretty coarse to damage a barrel with a soft rod .... but it really does happen occasionally. Care in cleaning is just part of a good shooter's regimen.

[Bazoo]

I usually use a sectional aluminum cleaning rod, and I dont use a muzzle guide normally. I wipe my rod often to remove anything on it and try to guide it into the bore without scraping the rifling if cleaning from the muzzle. I also will remove the sharp edges from the section ends with some very fine sandpaper. I'd like some 1 piece rods, but i've always had hoppes or other lower grade rods.

I use Hoppes 9 for lead and powder and light copper fowling coupled with a bronze brush. I normally use a brass patch holder and not a jag. Slop the hoppes in, let soak a while, brush it with more hoppes, follow with a clean patch and see. If it needs more repeat. If not, then I run an oily patch followed by a dry patch.

I like brownells and tipton brushes. I prefer brass core for revolver so there isnt any chance of the brush core striking the recoil shield and causing damage. If I use a steel core brush for a revolver, I make certain I wont hit the recoil shield or cover it with several layers of rag.

That said... I dont have a super accurate target gun. Hunting guns is what I like, and I aint likely to damage the accuracy with anything reasonable.

[country gent]

A one piece rod can be a issue to travel with and not get bent or damaged. A very simple effective case can be made for them from pvc tubing. You need a piece of tubing with the inside dia slightly larger than the handle of the rod and as long as the rods overall length. A cap. A pvc to Thread connecter. And a threaded pvc plug, the ones with the male square drive work great. Cut to length glue cap and adapter on to pipe. allow to cure. I use a glue primer and pvc glue for this, apply glue to inside of parts and outside of tube for the best bond. Insert rod and thread cap in hand snug. now the rod cant be bent in travel. A handle can be affixed to the side of the tube with a couple screws if desired. All my 1 piece rods are stored in these tubes to protect them. Keeps them clean and straight.

[Shuz]

Please go back and re-read my post number 25.--Thanks--Shuz

[country gent]

Most High Power shooter only clean enough to "get thru the next match". This did a couple things. 1) first shot was closer to the fouled bore zero saving chasing zero till the bore normalized. 2) saved reduced the chance of rod wear or damage. 3) saved time after the match when hot and tired from the day. During the nationals when the rifle is used every day all day some didn't clean until the matches were over. 4 Days 66 rounds a day during nra week. I cleaned barrels just enough to get through the next days program. The gas pistons were cleaned before the first shot and after the last shot fired on the m1as. On my AR match rifle the Krieger barrel never seen a bronze brush ( a nylon brush was used to clean chamber. At the end of the day a wet patch wa s ran thru the bore with shooters choice kroil oil then a dry and another wet. I waited at the stat building for scores to be posted then the drive home ( about an hour ) once home unloaded gear and dry patched bore again.

[243winxb]

Has anyone ever damaged a bbl with a cleaning rod edge that appeared because the patch was too tight and the tip screwed out about 1/4 to 3/8"(est), thus exposing the edge of the rod, and when the stainless steel one piece rod flexed because the patch was way too tight, it jammed the edge into the rifling? .25 caliber is the issue here.

No, never damaged a barrel

A 22 caliber cleaning rod in a 25 bore may flex enough? What diameter cleaning rod was in use?

[Shuz]

No, never damaged a barrel

A 22 caliber cleaning rod in a 25 bore may flex enough? What diameter cleaning rod was in use?

The rod used was a Hoppe's stainless steel of .204" diameter. In measuring the very end of the rod where the tip butts up against the jag, the diameter has grown to .209". I am going to file the edge and reduce or eliminate this flare.
It is hard for me to understand how the edge of the rod could have touched the bore with the jag backing out only about 5/32". But who knows? Comments are appreciated.--Shuz

[Dan Cash]

Don't clean no stinkin guns. Shoot them till they lose accuracy then sell em off. /s