LEE cowboy bullet in a Marlin 94c

[Jack Stanley]

I just finished casting a pile of the LEE cowboy bullet (158 grain ) with the idea of loading them in thirty-eight cases for the Marlin lever carbine . I'm pretty sure I have some 700-X and some Universal Clays to work with . Looking for accuracy at about eleven hundred feet per second or so and thinking about keeping pressure down so it can be used in a handgun too .

Anybody done any work with this bullet ? Thanks , Jack

[TCFAN]

I just finished casting a pile of the LEE cowboy bullet (158 grain ) with the idea of loading them in thirty-eight cases for the Marlin lever carbine . I'm pretty sure I have some 700-X and some Universal Clays to work with . Looking for accuracy at about eleven hundred feet per second or so and thinking about keeping pressure down so it can be used in a handgun too .

Anybody done any work with this bullet ? Thanks , Jack

Yes I have been using this boolit in my 1894C.

My load that I have settled on for plinking is 38 special case with 4.5 grs of Bullseye and a Rem sm. pistol primer.

I tumble lube the boolit with one coat of LLA and then size in a .358 lee size die and then give them one coat of JPW.

They shoot Ok about 1 1/2 to 2 inch at 50 yards and clock around 1122 FPS average.

This load shoots pretty quite and you would get about 1555 loads per one pound of powder......Terry

[truckmsl]

Jack - I've found 6.2 grains of Unique with a .357 case to be the best moderate load for my 94C, so far with that bullet. Velocity is around 1300 fps, and I'm using water quenched wheel weights with Alox/JPW. This worked better than Universal Clays for me. I haven't tried any 2400 yet for moderate loads, but would be interested if others have had luck with that.

truck

[Jack Stanley]

Thanks guys , these bullet are dropping out of the mold at about .360" or so . The carbine likes the .359" heavy LBT bullets in a magnum case . It would be nice to make a nice .38 load that is easy to tell the difference from the heavy LBT .

I have liquid Alox but I haven't used it for pistol type loads yet . I wonder if leaving these bullets unsized would be alright . Do you use just enough alox to push it through the sizer easy ? The bullets don't get gooey in the seating die ? This might be something to look into .

Jack

[TCFAN]

Thanks guys , these bullet are dropping out of the mold at about .360" or so . The carbine likes the .359" heavy LBT bullets in a magnum case . It would be nice to make a nice .38 load that is easy to tell the difference from the heavy LBT .

I have liquid Alox but I haven't used it for pistol type loads yet . I wonder if leaving these bullets unsized would be alright . Do you use just enough alox to push it through the sizer easy ? The bullets don't get gooey in the seating die ? This might be something to look into .

Jack

Hi Jack
I have tried the Lee 158 cowboy unsized. Mine also drop out at .360. I found that I got better accuracy sized down at .358.

As for the LLA I just put a lite coat on and let them dry for a day or so. Then I run them through a Lee sizer and recoat with a lite to medium coat of JPW.I also let the JPW dry for two days at least before I load them or box them up.

Since I started using the JPW I have not had any trouble with lube build up in the seating die.

This is a very clean shooting boolit with 4.5 grs. of Bullseye in my 94C.

I think it would be more accurate if Lee would leave the bevel off.

You might try a few loaded like this and see what you think....If you do I would like to know how they work in your 94C........Terry

[truckmsl]

I just throw some bullets in a baggie, add a tiny amount of alox, roll them around, and size them through the Lee sizee immediately. works great, no waiting.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thanks guys , these bullet are dropping out of the mold at about .360" or so . The carbine likes the .359" heavy LBT bullets in a magnum case . It would be nice to make a nice .38 load that is easy to tell the difference from the heavy LBT .

I have liquid Alox but I haven't used it for pistol type loads yet . I wonder if leaving these bullets unsized would be alright . Do you use just enough alox to push it through the sizer easy ? The bullets don't get gooey in the seating die ? This might be something to look into .

Jack

Every thing I cast I try unsized and tumble lubed first. If it works, that's where I leave it. More shooting time, works as often as not.

TCFAN, whats JPW? Obviously something extremely obvious that i have missed on.

[TCFAN]

4fingermick

JPW is Johnson paste wax.It is a floor wax for I think for hard wood floors.......I use it on boolits........There is several posts on it...........Terry

[Jack Stanley]

I got a little bit of that Alox goo on a hundred bullets to start with . Just enough to put a little brown in the crevices . In a day or so , I'll size to '.358" and then the paste wax .

About how much wax per hundred bullets ? I never used the stuff so I don't know what to look for .

Thanks , Jack

[TCFAN]

I got a little bit of that Alox goo on a hundred bullets to start with . Just enough to put a little brown in the crevices . In a day or so , I'll size to '.358" and then the paste wax .

About how much wax per hundred bullets ? I never used the stuff so I don't know what to look for .

Thanks , Jack

Jack,I put maybe a teaspoon on that amount of boolits. I swirl them around in a plastic butter tub till they are coated good and then hit them with a hair dryer on hot for just a second or two till I see the wax just turn to liquid.

Dump them out on wax paper and they are ready to load in a day or two.

[Jack Stanley]

I'll try that then . I got them sized and I think I got a bit to much on them though .

The hair dryer does what for the operation here ? Just helps evacuate the carrier ?

Jack

[TCFAN]

I'll try that then . I got them sized and I think I got a bit to much on them though .

The hair dryer does what for the operation here ? Just helps evacuate the carrier ?

Jack

Well, not real sure just what good it does. Just try with and without the heat. To me it seems that it takes out the lumps if I get it to thick.

Post your results and how they shoot...............Terry

[Jack Stanley]

OK the wax seems hard enough to work with now . I checked the bhn again and it's still about eight or nine and I sorted cases out by headstamp . All I gotta do now is switch over the Dillon to .38 and start working .

I'll let ya know .

Jack

[Jack Stanley]

I got a chance to shoot some today , fifty were loaded with 4.2 grains Bullseye and fifty with 4.4 grains . The lighter charge had a better group over all in both the revolver and the carbine . One of the bullets with the higher charge hit the paper sideways at twenty-five yards . I suspect leading may have been part of it , both guns had some in them . I was able to dry brush it out but I'd rather not have to .
Oddly enough , even after the deplorable group the higher charge made with the carbine . I was able to shoot a halfway decent group with the leftovers of the lighter charge .

With the hardness at around nine bhn , I'm thinking either more lube or more diameter maybe both . I got some more alox on another batch of a hundred and ten bullets . Ten of them I'm got splash the paste wax on real heavy and leave them unsized just to see if they will chamber easy . The rest of them I may run through a .359" die that seems to have a sized diameter of .3595 or so .... I just wish it was a Star die :roll: Ah well , if it works I can call Magma .

Jack

[Scrounger]

I'm thinking.....slower powder.

[TCFAN]

Jack.......To bad about the leading. I have not had any problem so far with my 1894C with the Lee 158 cowboy.

My carbine likes the 4.5 gr. load of Bullseye better than the 4.0 charge.

I don't know what the BHN is on the boolits that I have been using but they are plain old wheel weights.

Right now I have about 500 rounds through my barrel with out it being cleaned and I see no lead and it is still shooting about the same size groups at 50 yards as when it was cleaned last.

Anyway this is the load I am going to use for plinking and general shooting for now.

If I could find a good 180 gr. mold with a good big flat nose that would feed through my carbine I would start developing a deer load in a 357 case.

Hope you get yours shooting like you want it too.......Terry

[Jack Stanley]

I could try a slower powder , four and a half grain is a plus "P" load in my loading manual . But then I have found that the hundred eighty-five grain LBT bullets work just fine sized to about .3595" . The powder for that is a case full of Accurate Arms number nine , no leading in the carbine or a S&W those bullets use a gas check though .

With the cost of checks being what they are , I'll continue to fiddle around with this looking for a plinker load using plain base bullets . They feed nice and if it's no faster than standard velocity .38 ammo that's OK too .

I think I'll try a larger bullet size first with maybe three point eight and four grains of Bullseye . If that don't work maybe slower powder will . It would be great to find one that works with the paste wax or liquid alox lube without the mess in the dies of course :-D

Jack

[TCFAN]

But then I have found that the hundred eighty-five grain LBT bullets work just fine sized to about .3595



Jack

Where are you getting the 185 gr. LBT bullets. Do you have a mold or are you buying them already cast ??

Do they feed through your 94c ok ?......Terry

[Jack Stanley]

With the LBT bullets I size them in a Lyman die that pops them out at .3595" . I got a mold from Veral Smith six or eight years ago I think and they feed through the 94c just fine .
In a .38 case I use this bullet with four point five grains of Universal Clays and a gas check . It works very well but I want to back away from the cost of the checks if I can . That is why I have the interest in the plain base bullets and a star die , of course if the unsized bullets work with the wax that's OK too .

Jack

[truckmsl]

someone correct me if I'm wrong, but BHN 8 or 9 seems too soft for a .38+P load. I've had to use water quenched wheel weights for my moderate .357 loads to avoid leading.

[Jack Stanley]

You may very well be right . I normally use gas checks on everything but due to the cost of the little buzzards I'm stepping out of the boat I'm used to .

Yesterday after work I took out ten rounds that I had lube sized in a conventional manner . I used Regular Alox and sized them at .359or so with the Lyman die I have . The ammo was loaded with three point three grains of 700X and while it did not lead the point of impact was a good distance to the left of all the other loads I've used . Including the .357 load that shoots to the same point of aim as my wadcutters do ( so I'd kinda like to leave the sight alone and adjust a mid-power .38 load to fit ) .

The guns I intend to use have chamber throats at or near .359" so now I can order a new die for the Star sizer I think . I still am going to try the liquid Alox/Johnson's paste wax Idea for lube . Also , I lube some with just liqiud Alox to see if I can make that work without leading in the guns .

I may still end up using something like Unique or blue dot for powder . I was encouraged by not finding lead after the 700-x , guess I could have dropped the charge of Bullseye just as easy . :roll:Just wanted to try something a bit slower and see what happened .

Jack

[crabo]

I have gotten a little better accuracy with HS6 vs Unique, in my Marlin CB with the 357. (for midrange loads)

[45r]

I get one inch 5 shot and sometimes 10 shot groups at 50 yards with my plain base 180 and 200 grain Mtn Mold boolits using RL-7.I tried and tried to find some other faster powder to shoot better,didn't happen.Rem 7 1/2 primers and 15.8 grains was best doing 1300 fps with the 200LBT style and CCI 550 pimers and 16.5 works great doing 1400 fps with the 180Secant.I can shoot at least 30 rounds with no leading.Faster powders gas cut plain base boolits and don't work well in my 357CB rifle for me.I bet if you tried around 17.0 grains RL-7 with a mag pistol or small rifle primer you would get better accuracy.I size .360 for the 200 with air-cooled WW and size .359 for the 180 Secant heat-treated at 430 degrees and ice water quenched.The Secant feeds very smooth.

[Jack Stanley]

I do use a healthy charge od Accurate Arms number nine in a .357 case using my hundred eighty-five grain LBT . It gives groups similar to yours and even works well in a "N" frame Smith , I kinda like that versatility .
Currently , I'm finding I may have to rely on the LBT in the thirty-eight case because this LEE "cowboy" bullet is coming up short in the accuracy department . I gotta get ready for church right now so I don't have time to type the particulars , how likely does anyone think it is to get a poor mold from Lee ? Regular "production" not a special order bullet or anything like that . I've had better results from two different designs and mold makers in the last day or so , something ain't right here .

Jack

[crabo]

I didn't get any loads I was happy with using the Lee 158 cowboy boolit. I quit using it.

[TCFAN]

I do use a healthy charge od Accurate Arms number nine in a .357 case using my hundred eighty-five grain LBT . It gives groups similar to yours and even works well in a "N" frame Smith , I kinda like that versatility .
Currently , I'm finding I may have to rely on the LBT in the thirty-eight case because this LEE "cowboy" bullet is coming up short in the accuracy department . I gotta get ready for church right now so I don't have time to type the particulars , how likely does anyone think it is to get a poor mold from Lee ? Regular "production" not a special order bullet or anything like that . I've had better results from two different designs and mold makers in the last day or so , something ain't right here .

Jack



Hi Jack

If you think you might have a bad mold in that Lee 158 cowboy I would be happy to send some samples of my boolits to you so you could compare them.

I would also send some of the 125gr. Lee cowboys so you could try them if you are interested.

If you want to try these boolits send me a PM with your address and I will send them right out......Terry

[Jack Stanley]

I've tried seating the LEE bullet out , in , lubed with liquid alox and regular , lubed with paste wax and all of that both sized and unsized . I thought for a minute that maybe there was something wrong with the scope or carbine . So , I loaded up some leftover H&G bullets that I had cast years ago for a friends PPC compitition . I used the same powder charge and it drilled the "X" out of a standard pistol target . The only problem I had with it was I had it seated short and it wanted to catch on the edge of the chamber going in . Since I seated the H&G bullet to 1.510" over all length it hasn't stumbled at all and it still drilled the "X" out .
This afternoon I melted down all the bullets I'd made in the LEE mould and cast a few in the H&G six cavity . Wow , it's been long time since I heated that one up . This week I'll size and lube a few and see if the alloy is part of the problem . After all I was using range scrap and didn't know what it was .

I would like to find a nice thirty-eight load the can work as a standard "service" load in a revolver . I'f it won't shoot worth a hoot in the carbine there isn't much sense in me loading them because I normally shoot the long guns about five times as much as a handgun .

Jack

[crabo]

I had previously stated that I gave up on the 158 Lee CB boolit in my Marlin. I tried a different tack today. I loaded a bunch of different powder and loads for my Marlin 357 using the 125 Lee CB pb.

I used magnum cases and standard primers. WD boolits were sized to .359 and lubed with speedgreen and then coated with LLA. Right now I have my Marlin set up with a 4.5x14 Luepold and a lace-on cheekpiece. (kinda sounds like cheating doesn't it?) I want to eliminate as many variables as I can.

I tried Unique and Universal powder. I have attched the Universal target. The Unique groups were larger than the Universal groups and running 1.75- 2.25.
Now I need to load more of the 6.0 grains of Universal and make sure it is repeatable and see where it impacts compared to my 180 gc boolit. I think it would run out of gas as it gets past 50 yards, but it would certainly work on chickens and pigs.

[fecmech]

Crabo--I have a 2 cav Lee cowboy made about 5 years ago, extremely accurate, great bullet well made mold. About 8 mos. ago I ordered a 6 cav in that bullet and discovered they changed it quite a bit. The meplate was bigger,grease groove in a different location, really pronounced machine tool marks and it did not shoot as well for me. I sold it and decided to live with the 2 cav if I needed a cowboy bullet. My H&G #39 158 rn is every bit as accurate and feeds better to boot.

[NHlever]

I got a chance to shoot some of the Lee Cowboy boolits out of my Winchester 94 Legacy .357 today. The range was busy so I only tried a couple of loads at 50 yards. I was shooting 3.8, and 4.0 grains of W-231 out of .38 Special cases with WSP primers. The boolits were a mix of remelted commercial bullets, and ww sized to .358, and lubed with a generic blue "firm" lube (requires heat) in an RCBS Lube sizer. Five shot groups were running 1", and under sometimes four in half that, and a flier. Since the bullets weren't weighed, etc. that could explain that........ we all know it couldn't have been me! :-) I have more loaded with heavier charges, and some with titegroup, and sized to .359. My Security Six likes boolits sized to .357, and didn't shoot the 3.8 grain load too well. Sizing that boolit to .357 wipes out a lot of the crimp groove.

[Jack Stanley]

So far in the thirty-eight special case I am at 3.6 grains of 700X and using the H&G number 316 that weighs in a one fifty-five . I seat them at 1.515" and they feed good not bungles or misfeeds in over three hundred rounds .
For the most part accuracy is twice as goos as the LEE bullet I tried . I am using just a touch of LLA on the bullets and letting them dry . Then I'll coat them with a bit of Corbin dip lube which shows the same accuracy as Paste wax . They are then run through the Star .359 die and lubed with a mix of 50/50 Alox and LBT blue .

These seem to wotk well in both handgun and carbine . The only problem I have now is when loading , invariably a little lube gets all over the loaded ammo . I really don't like the greasy feeling on the ammo and usually give the ammo a few turns in Attrition milled corn cobs to clean them up . Since the "dry lubes" used on the bullet before sizing are a bit tacky it is gonna take longer to clean this up than I like turning in the tumbler .

I got a bit more work to do before I get to pull the handle ten thousand times for the load :roll:

Jack

[Shotgun Luckey]

I bought the mould from fecmech and it's working great for me. Granted, there are some ugly tool marks on the nose, but they shot well for me. I sized them in my Star and loaded them up in .38 cases over 3.8 grn of Win 231 with cci small pistol primers. I also ran them through a factory crimp die. I didn't punch paper with them, but I hit the steel at the cowboy match when I did my part. They fed great through my '66 Winchester, performed well in the revolvers, and the Marlin 1894 had a bit of a problem when racking the action fast, but accuracy seems fine. Infact, if I could find another 6-banger at a good price, I would buy it.

[Jack Stanley]

I loaded up a hundred rounds of the 3.6 grains of 700X into the Federal cases . The ammo had that greasy feel that soft lubes give , something I don't want to deal with for several ammo cans worth of shooting ammo .
I've used a cement mixer that I bought brand new years ago to use as a dedicated brass tumbler and have used it on loaded ammo before . I really don't like tumbling loaded ammo for more than about twenty minutes , no real reason , I just don't . Normally when cleaning off case lube from jacketed bullet rounds that come from the Dillon , twenty minutes is enough to wipe the lube completely .
I tried twenty minutes with the hundred rounds with a bit of citrus based cleaner sprayed into the media . After twenty minutes , it looked like it was still working on the exposed bullet lube on the bullet . After forty minutes a few blobs of lube were still holding media against it . When an hour in the tumbler was over , the bullets looked clean and the cases didn't have the greasy feel to them .
I took them out and shot them side by side with the greasy feeling stuff and the cleaned ammo shot a little better group . Since I had the time , I checked them up against the wadcutter loads that would rip ragged holes with the other carbine ( that would be the one that Barry has now of course ) . The pointy bullets shot about the same but the group was definately more round than the wadcutter bullets .
Thinking that maybe I had enough lube I could increase the charge without leading . I snooped around untill I found load data in an RCBS manual that showed a load of 3.8 of 700X . It didn't take long to adjust the Dillon measure and make up twenty rounds to try , the groups however opened up a bit .

I've tried the bullets with , and without the slight amount of liquid Alox covered with paste wax or Corbin dip lube . So far the carbine shows a preference for the bullets Liquid Aloxed and waxed with the lube groove filled with regular lube . The revolver doesn't seem to care much one way or the other , the accuracy difference can be explained with my poor eyesight . The problem may end up being loading the ammo them cleaning the goo off the ammo so I can get those nice tight groups :roll:Well , at least I hope it works out that way when I try another sample [smilie=1:

Jack

[Jack Stanley]

Crabo , I meant to ask you . What distance did you fire those groups at ?

Thanks , Jack

[crabo]

Jack, I shot them at 50 yards. I am shooting at an indoor target range. Right now I have my Marlin set up with a 4.5x14 Luepold and a lace-on cheekpiece. I rest it on a bag right in front of the lever and a bag underneath the stock in the rear. I also firelapped the barrel with the LBT paste and put in a Wild West Trigger and a one piece firing pin. I did some polishing on different parts and modified the carrier like in Imashooter's post. I think using magnum cases might have an influence because the boolits don't have to jump as far.

Once my back gets in good enough shape to walk 200 yards, I'll do some testing at 100 yards.

I found that a 23/64ths bit would work to take the bevel out of the 158 grain Lee mold. As soon as I find it, I let you know how that worked out. Sad to say, I don't know where I put the mold.

[Jack Stanley]

That six grain load of Universal in the lower left corner looks good , perhaps I should try that instead of 700X .

I bet I should clean up my bench technique , leaning across a couple of two by fours might not have much consistancy . The scope is a Bushnell 1.5x5 ..... I think . I am thinking that maybe a Leupold four power might be just right but then , I ten to favor the "golden ring" .

I have a pile of bullets "age hardening" , that's code for I don't have time right now to do anything with it . I intend to load them with conventional lube without the paste wax or liquid Alox . I would like to get some decent fifty yard groups and I know it ai't just as easy as shooting half size groups at twenty-five . [smilie=1:

Jack

[wiljen]

I think I'd save the 700-x for 45 Acp plinkers where it works well and go with the Universal load. 700 is still in the same burn rate class as Red Dot and titegroup and is probably a bit fast based on other powders we've seen discussed in this thread. If you want a cheaper powder at the same basic burn rate as Universal - give Rex 3 a try. I've been using a lot of it and it is roughly Universal/Unique speed.

[HOSS]

[If I could find a good 180 gr. mold with a good big flat nose that would feed through my carbine I would start developing a deer load in a 357 case.]
Try this in a 38 spc. case old hoss!==rcbs mold 357-180-sil.double cavity mold.
bullet style silhouette,top punch#430 I cast it with no2 alloy or streight
w/w depends how fast you push it.I get great acc. in my colt lightening and
other lever guns.No leading and has a good punch way out.
hope this helps.Check for oal,but it feeds in my rifles with 357 also.
Ever think of altering your feed ?so you can load longer bullets.

[EDK]

The RANCH DOG TLC 359 190 moulds are available...unfortunately only in 2 cavity...and I got mine Thursday night! Things came up that I couldn't cast any boolits yet, but I'll let you know when I do. There's a bunch of guys here and over at Marlin Owners that will be firing this mould up ASAP.

The TLC 432 265 has worked well through my MARLIN Cowboys and an assortment of VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS and BLACKHAWKS in 44 magnum. Lube it like Ranch Dog's tutorial on LLA says and it works great.

Pull up the link at the bottom of the page for Ranch Dog Moulds. I wouldn't "pick my nose" too long since his moulds are popular. I goofed around and didn't get a mould for my 30/30 AND they won't be available until next summer!

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Jack Stanley]

HOSS , I never even considered modifying the rifle for long bullets . I have a LBT mould that works superb using a magnum case or the thirty-eight . I intend to load a bunch and want to do it without the cost of checks .

Wiljen , I have Unique and Universal and after looking at the group Crabo fired , I could force myself to accept a slightly higher velocity it likely would give . I think I'll try it first in the handgun and carbine before I toss out the idea just because it doesn't fit what I originally wanted . With the handgun I can accept larger groups because my eyes are getting worse and four inch barrels don't help . With a carbine and a scope though I ought not have any excuse for not drilling tiny little groups . I can think of the enjoyment after loading ten thousand of the little buggers ; blasting them without having to load for the next ten years [smilie=1:

Jack:)

[crabo]

Here's my 180 grain Mountain Mold GC boolit. It has a 73% meplat. I have attached some targets that I shot at 50 yards. I still can't walk good enough to set targets at 100.

I attached targets with 13.5 of 296 and 13.0 just to show the difference 1/2 a grain of powder can make. I don't have a chronograph, so I have no idea what the velocity from the 24" barrel is.

The carrier has to be modified to feed this boolit.

[Jack Stanley]

Nice shot on the steel frame Crabo !! I've done that a couple times .

I like that 7/8 inch group very nice to be sure . I'm hoping whatever load range this thirty-eight load comes out at it performs that well . I load my LBT heavy bullet with four and a half grains of Unique and it does about as well . I still want to be able to use this H&G mold though .

If worse comes to worse , I guess I could get ahold of Veral Smith and get a four cavity for the LFN plain base at a hundred and sixty grains .

Jack

[Jack Stanley]

I got a chance to try some Universal Clays with the rest of these components I've been working with . I started with four point six grains and stopped at five on the way to five point four grains . The light load shot about an inch an a half lower than the 700-X load did and about the same group size . The five grain load didn't do very well but the higher five point four did better ( second place of the three ) .

While shooting , I was sure I noticed the reticle moving with the slight movements while getting in position for the shot . I'm now thinking that I may have a parallax problem , after all the scope is meant for longer distance . Since I've been only shooting up close that may be why groups don't seems a close as I think they should . Being a Bushnell scope I wonder if it's worth the trouble to send it in for adjustment or if I'd best be served finding a different scope . It might be better for me to just quit trying to overfuss the task at hand and be happy with decent groups at twenty-five yards . Another thought might be that this H&G bullet has a good bit of a jump without a lot of bearing surface . The LBT heavyweight is much longer and maybe that is why it's so accurate .

Doncha just love fooling with loads ?:mrgreen:

Jack