A question for you 10 mm users.

[tazman]

I like the idea of a 10mm in a 1911 type longslide pistol. I have never shot a 10mm handgun of any type.
How much recoil difference is there between a standard 45acp full power load and a 10mm full power load in the 1911?
The reason I ask is, due to arthritis in my hands and wrists, I am somewhat recoil sensitive. I can handle loads up to 357 magnum in a 686 and 45acp in my 1911 pistols without issue, but not much if any heavier loads. I don't know where the felt recoil of a 10mm load in a 1911 falls in comparison. I certainly don't need to waste money finding out if your experiences can help me.
Thanks for your input.
tazman

[BigAl52]

Tazman
If you can handle a 357 and 45 acp I don't see any issue with a 10 mm especially in a long slide. That gun should be heavy enough to dissipate felt recoil. I have a 10mm in a Rock Island and I don't mind shooting it at all. I think its close to 45 acp. I'm not sure what barrel length of 686 you have but the big 158 and 180 grain loads there should be close to the 10. If you can handle those I don't think you would be wasting your money. Just my .02 cents worth. Al

[lefty o]

its snappier. something im no longer a big fan of since the arthritis wrecked my wrists. id certainly try one before buying if its possible it may not be friendly to your body.

[Boolit_Head]

My 45 1911 was flippier but the 10mm Glock I have is more recoil into the hand. Hard to describe the 45 flipped up and then down quickly making it hard to reaquire. The 10mm was more like a upward and rearward recoil like a normal gun. My Glock was very sharp and snappy when I got it when it was introduced. I picked up a Harts recoil reducer and it took some of the sharp snap out of the recoil especially when it was empty. It was easy to tell the difference when the gun was full or empty. Realistically today the 10mm is so downloaded from when it was introduced if you plan on using factory ammo go with the 40 cal. Especially if you are recoil sensitive due to arthritis in the hand.

[9.3X62AL]

Boolit Head called it correctly. The original 10mm Auto ballistics by Norma Projectilfabrik ran a 200 grain bullet at 1225-1250 FPS. These were the Colt-Breaker loads that did in the 1911/Delta Elite platforms over time. The Bren Ten and the S&W 10-series pistols can manage such loads, but the most powerful loadings that Colt and Glock 10mms should fire are the Winchester Silvertips, which launch a 175 grain bullet in the 1240-1280 FPS realm. Most makers' loads now run a 180 grain bullet in the 1125-1150 FPS range. Federal makes one load that runs a 180 grain bullet at 1030 FPS, which is just a short gain on the 40 S&W. This is the "FBI Lite" loading.

The recoil impulse of 10mm WWSTHPs seems subjectively about 20% more intense than that from a 45 ACP shooting hardball. FWIW. My 40 S&Ws run 180 grain bullets 925-950 FPS.

[ReloaderFred]

I have 10mm pistols in Colt Delta Elite, S&W 1006, Tanfoglio Witnesses (both full size and compact) and a 10mm revolver, which is a 6" S&W Model 610, and I have a 10mm AR Carbine. I also have .45's in all those platforms, except for the carbine. Fully loaded 10mm with 180 to 200 gr. bullets are snappier than the .45 acp with 230 gr. full power loads. They are also much louder than the .45 acp.

If you're really recoil sensitive, then I'd suggest shooting the 10mm in the platform you prefer before buying one, if possible.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't currently play in the 10mm sandbox but I'm with Al; once you start down-loading the 10mm, you get into 40 S&W territory pretty quickly.

The 10mm is capable of launching a bullet that is heavier than most .357 mag bullets at speeds that approach or meet .357 mag velocities; so there is an energy advantage to be had. Plus, as a rimless casing that headspaces on the case mouth, it was a pistol cartridge as opposed to a rimmed revolver cartridge, from the beginning.

The 10mm (with the right load) can offer a lot of energy in a semi-auto pistol. However, unless you really need all of that energy in a pistol, it doesn't offer much that can't also be accomplished in a revolver. The cost for all of that energy is noise, recoil and wear on the pistol. The noise is not to be underestimated.
Don't get me wrong here, the 10mm can take the pistol platform to some impressive levels.
However, you don't need all of that power to punch holes in paper or ring steel. When we start adding long slides to 10mm pistols, we are probably getting out of the carry gun realm and into the target gun world. In the target gun world, we don't need a 180 grain bullet travelling at 1200 fps. And by the way, you can exceed that energy in a 41 Magnum.

I understand why the 10mm was developed and it's a good concept to extract a LOT of power from rimless pistol cartridge fired in a semi-auto pistol. Having shot the old Delta Elite back in the late 1980's and the Glock model 20 more recently, I can say it's not a concept that appeals to me.

Tazman, I'm not sensitive to recoil and I can't tell you if a long slide 10mm pistol would be acceptable to you. I can say that a 10mm Delta Elite with full power loads produces a noticeable amount of recoil and a LOT of noise! If I wanted a lot of muzzle energy in a semi-auto pistol, the 10mm is the way to go. As a self-defense tool that I practice with, I don't want a 10mm. As a target gun, I don't see a need for all of that power. YMMV

[44MAG#1]

I havent shot a 1911 10MM with FULL power loads. I now have a Ruger 1911 10MM. I have shot Buffalo Bore FULL power loads 180gr. in my Glock M20. They arent bad. Of course that is a "relative" term.
So you reload? If so modify your loads and maybe use the heavier loads sparingly.
That is what many do with other calibers so what would be wrong with doing that to the 10?

[tazman]

Petrol & Powder
I believe you have summed up the argument for and against the 10mm as well as could be.
I was not considering this for a carry gun or even a hunting gun. I was thinking more for fun and the longer slide.
I think I may look into a longslide in 45acp or even 9mm which would serve my purpose and usage better.
Thank you all for your input.

[Eagle59]

Sig Elite ammo has 180 grain @1250 ft/sec. There is still some good factory ammo being produced. Underwood has a lot of good rounds for the 10mm too.

[Boolit_Head]

If you reload it you can achieve the full potental. I used to load up some 180 grain gold dots with a max load of Blue dot and in a 10 inch barrel contender they would pick up some extra fps over what the books listed. Mean whitetail load in the contender and in my Glock they were quite a handful and a show. I think even the load books are downgraded some these days so check against the older books to see what they had.

[Petrol & Powder]

.........
I was not considering this for a carry gun or even a hunting gun. I was thinking more for fun and the longer slide.
I think I may look into a longslide in 45acp or even 9mm which would serve my purpose and usage better.
.......


OK, so with self-defense carry and hunting off the table, we are left with target work.
I don't think the 10mm has a lot to offer in that area that couldn't be met by another cartridge and with less powder/lead/blast/recoil/etc.

In the pistol arena, which appears where you want to be, there are some fine 9mm and 45 ACP choices.

The all steel CZ-75 is a fine gun and capable of excellent accuracy. I had an older "out of the box" Kimber 1911 that was just as accurate as an acquaintances' Les Baer.

Sometimes putting some money/time into used but well made gun pays off. I have a Star Super B that needed some attention but is now a very good shooter. A well fitted 1911 or Browning Hi-Power will often reward its owner with outstanding accuracy. I've seen some excellent S&W 645 pistols (although most owners will not part with theirs) and there are some old all steel European 9mm pistols out there that will shoot!

[9.3X62AL]

The 10mm is not for everyone. The "180 grain-class bullet at 1225-1250 FPS" is as much as I want in a full-size carry gun like my Glock 20SF, and is a bit over-the-top in my Glock 29SF sub-compact. In the compact pistol realm, I really like the Glock 23 (40 S&W). It is my most-carried CCW sidearm. The 9mm--once the 147 grain JHP sub-sonic loads came into vogue--became for me a paper puncher and small varmint whacker. If you are using 35 caliber bullets, they need to be running 1200 FPS with controlled expansion at minimum, or weigh at least 158 grains and be made of soft lead.

[country gent]

I have 1911s in 38 spl, 38 super, 10mm and 45 acp.
The 38spl is a 6 " barrel in a 5"slide hand built and very accurate ( wadcutters only) soft shooting and really a lot of fun.
The 38 super is a 5" gun and is easier shooting than the 10 or 45 perfoms really well all around. Very accurate pistol. Its nice shooting as far as report and recoil. Powder and lead ges a long ways in this cartridge also. It is easy to load for. Upper end loads push on 357 loads performance
The 10mm is a colt delta elite 5" with 4 digit serial number. Good shooting and accurate. recoil is snappy and heavier than the others. I also find with upper end loads I chase brass more than the other 3.
The 45s are 5" 4" and 3" recoil isn't bad in them accuracy is good to exceptional. The 3" Kimber ultra carry shoots better than most 5" do. Brass stays close last forever and is easy to find.

In a 6" long slide a the 10mm shouldn't be to hard on you other than the snappyness. A long slide 45 is great shooting and easy to handle ( Ive shot a couple). Even more "user friendly" and easy shooting would be a 38 super long slide. Set up with a supported chamber appropriate recoil spring, 6" slide and barrel it would be an Ideal target plinking and all around pistol. Light loads ( The AMU played with it loaded down with wadcutters for bullseye shooting with good results) for most uses. mid range to upper end for any hunting of small game varmits or odds and ends. Upper end loads can make major for ipsic and other combat style competition.
If recoil is an issue another route is a 6" barrel in a 5" slide contoured block on barrel and magna ported thru block. A friend had one set up like this in 45 acp and it was very soft on recoil and muzzle flip, accurate out past 50 yds and just a great pin gun.
Its surprising how much the 1" added to the sight radious improved shootability, not accuracy that's a function of the skill and fitting of the pistol. But the actual useability of the pistol.

[DocSavage]

I have a Ruger in 10mm and one of the things I tried was having a flat bottom firing pin stop installed and that helps slow the slide down and reduces felt recoil to some extent and if you reload it will keep your brass from launching into the next county. The part was from EGW and cost me $20 to be fitted.

[ss30378]

I have the 10mm ruger 1911 and a glock longslide with a threaded barrel and compensator. Even with 220gr bullets at over 1200fps recoil isnt any worse than a hot 180gr 357 load out of my heavy blackhawk. I fitted a flat bottom fps and a 26lb spring in the 1911 and I have a 24lb spring and a 3 port comp in the long slide. Recoil is more noticeable with the 220s loaded "warm" than 180s loaded "very warm".

[Bigslug]

Taz,

I've pretty much reverted back to the .45 ACP for most of my big bore auto chores, but perhaps another way to look at it:

While the 10mm may be snappier than a .45, and not as hard/flat shooting as some of the magnum revolvers, it is safe to say that it is harder and flatter shooting than a .45 and not as snappy as many of the magnum revolvers. You do have that spring in there cushioning things down that the wheelguns do not have. It is kind of neat having your 25 and 100 yard sight pictures be pretty much the same. In that context, there's nothing wrong with ".41 Light".

[Outer Rondacker]

My 10mm has more pop then my 45s. I also feel the 10mm more in the back of my hand. I have some loads that mimic the 40 short and wimpy. I shoot 250-350 45s whenever I take one out. I only shoot 100 10mm and my hand feels the same. To be honest some times I do not make it past 50.

[Ramjet-SS]

Like any semi auto the spring rate and heft of the slide help mitagate some of the felt recoil. I shoot mostly 200 grain GC cast WFN from my Model 40 and Longslide 1911 10mm handguns. I think they are very close to perceived recoil as shooting +P 230 grain from 5" 45 ACP. I actually put a 7" KKM barrel on model 40 Glock MOS and just love shooting it. Great velocity great accuracy and optimizes the 10mm in a handgun.

[RJM52]

If it is going to be for the range, no reason to waste the extra lead...just shoot a lighter bullet. I have a PARA-USA Elite LS Hunter that Remington now markets as their Hunter Model and it is an excellent shooter. Bullets in the 155-165 weight class at 1200+ fps don't kick near as hard as the those in the 180-220 class. One of my most accurate loads is the Berry's plated 155 TC hollow base at 1250 fps...and from the longslide it is very manageable.

Kimber just brought out a 6" also. I have two of their 5" Stainless Target IIs and they are VERY accurate. There are a couple of dealers on GunBroker selling them for less than $900 delivered... The Remington can be had for about a grand. After that it is $1200 and up for a longslide 10mm...

I think you will enjoy it....

Bob

[Ramjet-SS]

I have one of the Remington's LS 1911 R1 it's a fine shooting gun and I have had zero issues other than it does not clean itself. :bigsmyl2:

[Outer Rondacker]

Some day I would like to ditch my g29 and get a 10mm in a 1911 platform. For now it works and I fun money in other places.

[6pt-sika]

I had a SIG 220 in 10mm a couple months ago although it was a 5" . I since sold it .
My gunsmith buddy recently got a Kimber 1911 in 10mm with a 6" barrel that I like quite a bit .
I also just yesterday bought a Kimber 1911 5" in 45 ACP . Depending on how my Kimber affliction goes I may very well have a Kimber 1911 10mm 6" in the next week .

[Groo]

Groo here
If you can handle Underwood/Doubletap,Buffelobore 45+p loadings from a 5 in or 4in 1911 you will have no problem with a full up 10mm in a 6in.
I have many 10 's , DW Cbob,ported 5in,6in Glock and had a 7in AMT.[want to build an officers sized one]
If you shoot them combat style they will beat you some but if you shoot them target style[ let them run a little not fight them] all is well.
The 10mm has better penetration than a 45 also higher speed for bullet weight.
Most are easier to hit with at longer ranges.
To make them easier to shoot, go to lighter bullets.[150 to 155 gr]
They are very easy on the hand but flat shooting at range.

[sparkyv]

My 10mm has more pop then my 45s. I also feel the 10mm more in the back of my hand. I have some loads that mimic the 40 short and wimpy. I shoot 250-350 45s whenever I take one out. I only shoot 100 10mm and my hand feels the same. To be honest some times I do not make it past 50.

me too; my HOT 10mm loads in my 1911 are noticeably snappier than any .45 I've shot in 1911s. Longslide may mitigate the felt recoil some...

[Ramjet-SS]

I had a SIG 220 in 10mm a couple months ago although it was a 5" . I since sold it .
My gunsmith buddy recently got a Kimber 1911 in 10mm with a 6" barrel that I like quite a bit .
I also just yesterday bought a Kimber 1911 5" in 45 ACP . Depending on how my Kimber affliction goes I may very well have a Kimber 1911 10mm 6" in the next week .

May I ask why you did not like the Sig 10mm?

[Lloyd Smale]

10s bark louder and that's what bothers most. As to the recoil. Yes its a bit more but anyone that can shoot a 45acp can shoot 10s in the same size gun without crying.

[jmort]

"The 10mm is capable of launching a bullet that is heavier than most .357 mag bullets at speeds that approach or meet .357 mag velocities; so there is an energy advantage to be had."

Wrong. Every 10mm thread has this nonsense. The .357 mag is more gun. More energy, better sectional density. I hope to own a 10mm someday, but I will do so not in ignorance. I will know the .357 mag is more gun, for a fact. I will keep it real.

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't really agree. It comes down to the purpose. if its self defense or hunting with jhps the 357 might edge out the 10mm but with cast bullets I give the edge to the 10. Velocity and ftlbs of energy don't mean a lot in the hunting field with cast bullets. The 10 will push a 200 grain bullet to 1200 fps or close to it. A bullet that is bigger in diameter. Most 357s ive owned wont stabilize a bullet heavier then 180. Even comparing 180s is both the 357 might add a bit of velocity but for the most part a 401 lfn or wfn has a bigger metplat then a 357 wfn or lfn. Just about any real world hunting with a cast bullet favors the heavier bullet with a big metplat. Sectional density is a viable argument if your wanting to go elk hunting with your little 357 but how many knowledgeable hand gunners do that. Real world use is for deer, pigs and maybe a black bear and none of those are all that tough to get penetration on. In the real world of cast bullet hunting your not gaining much if anything pushing bullets faster then 1200 fps. In some cases like if not using very hard alloys it can be detrimental because if you've ever done any penetration testing youd know that any bullet that deforms loose penetration fast and in many cases does not penetrate straight. Ive seen cast bullets with just small deformity's of the nose dive right out of a penetration box. So heres my take on it. Maybe the guys that think the 10 is superior to the 357 are wrong but so are the ones that try to claim the same about the 357. Ive killed deer and pigs with both. I haven't killed a black bear with either because bear permits come about once every 3 years up here and if I get one at least a 44 is going with me. But if I was backed up against the wall and had to choose id take a 10mm shooting a 200 grain lfn as fast as I could push it over any 357 load. For the simple reason that its going to poke a bigger hole in that bear. Bigger caliber is where its at for cast bullet hunting. Its why I argue with some who try to claim the 41 will do anything a 44 will do. Or a 45 colt with ruger level loads wont do a better job then a 44. I personaly could care less what the math numbers say. Ive handgun hunted long enough and have killed enough game both small and very large to know that a big hole shot straight through an animal with enough penetration to exit and give two holes to leak out is what kills best. Velocity and expansion and ft lbs of energy are good arguments for a self defense load but you don't kill with a calculator. take both out and kill 20 deer (at least 10 anyway) with each and then come back with a real world opinion. Bottom line is neither are ideal hunting guns. there marginal guns that only a real good shot should use and someone that is willing to pass until conditions are ideal. To me its kind of like arguing which is the better deer round a 222 or 223.

[44MAG#1]

Glad you posted Lloyd. Many think that Muzzle Energy is all that makes any difference.
Dont forget about the Bufflao Bore and Underwood 220 gr. Cast bullets too.
Most want to compare a revolver to a semi auto. The Glock 20 has a 4.6 inch barrel. With a 357 mag in a S&W 686 you aould only mat that with a 2.9 inch barrel. That barrel length with the cylinder would be roughly 4.6 inches. That would level the playing field too. Then compare the 357 Mag death ray to the lowly 10MM.

[Outer Rondacker]

I guess I will jump in.

(skip to second part if you do not want back story) I used to carry a 45acp in the woods. After I started having back issues I found myself in a pickle one day. While crawling around on the ground cutting firewood I sensed something behind me. I shut off my saw then turned around. A bear cub was standing not 15 feed from me just looking at me wondering what I was. Momma was not far behind and not acting happy. I reached for my G30 and about that time the cub started to walk off. It was at this point I started to rethink my woods carry.


(start here for point) I did some personal test of JHP and cast in 45 acp and 357 mag along with 10mm. The 357 mag and 10mm where neck and neck with hard cast. JHP's expanded to soon for me. Yes the 357 edged out the 10mm but when it came down to 10 rounds over 6 I was sold. I was looking at a different point to my test. I needed to penetration. The 45 was just out from the start. I parted with the G30 and found a G29 for under 200 dollars. It is scratched and some times comes home with more dirt in it then my boots but has always fired. This is my thoughts YMMV. I needed to be able to get deep into the body of a large bear. Or hit a few dogs if need be.

Lloyd you and I are on the same page.

To be honest the test I did was not fair. I used a 3.5" barrel on the 10mm and a 6" barrel on the 357. Had I used a shorter barrel on the 357 it would of lost (in my test). Yes it was that close.

[44MAG#1]

"To be honest the test I did was not fair. I used a 3.5" barrel on the 10mm and a 6" barrel on the 357. Had I used a shorter barrel on the 357 it would of lost (in my test). Yes it was that close."

Level playing field.
How did the premium loads in both do such as Underwood 220 cast in the 10MM and Underwood 357 Mag do?
What brands ammo did you use in the 10MM? In the 357 Mag?

[Outer Rondacker]

Well this was my test. For those of you who do not know me I only ever owned two boxes of factory ammo other then 22lr. One is a box of 9mm crimson something. The other is a box of 9mm streak ammo I just got. Everything else is reloads. Everything.

357 was a 180g bullet. The 10mm is a 180g. I used what I had access to. Like I said this is my test. I would of rather had a heavier bullet for the 10mm but I did not have any. This is what I narrowed it down to. JHP's did not make the final testing.

The test was done in a few different ways. One was into wet stacked cardboard from 15yrds. Another was into gallon jugs of water in a row. Ground clay packed into a box. (its free) Lastly wet saw dust in a very large box makes for a good test.

I test was only for me since I do not believe in the numbers being the end all result. Sorry this test was not valid to most. I used what I had and loads where worked up to what I felt where max. Please remember I was using a plastic gun vs a wheel gun.

[44MAG#1]

"I used what I had and loads where worked up to what I felt where max. Please remember I was using a plastic gun vs a wheel gun."

A plastic gun is okay. I have plastic too. 200 grain XTP's from a M20 Glock at 1250 is a little bit of power according to some. It may do some damage. I doubt it though.

[Outer Rondacker]

Not my test but here is a video with BB bullets. https://youtu.be/vKvxI1AyePM

[44MAG#1]

Not my test but here is a video with BB bullets. https://youtu.be/vKvxI1AyePM

How would the revolver do with a 3 inch barrel? What bullet weights were used? Were theyHeavy 10MM Buffalo Bore or the Tactical Lower recoil loads?

[Tazman1602]

Can't answer the question Taz BUT.....I *can* tell you ever since the days of Miami Vice I've wanted a Bren Ten...yes, I'm old.....still want one....

[evoevil]

a 40 S&W is the same thing only brass is cheaper , but I like 45 because they don't make a 46

[Lloyd Smale]

if you believe that then the 308 is equal to a 3006 and the 3006 is equal to a 300 win mag. The 40 is to a 10 what a 38spec plus p is to a 357 magnum. Hardly equal. With the 40 your limited to 180s because of powder space and the 10mm will easily handle 200s and even bullets as heavy as 220 grain. But that doesn't make a 40 a pip squeak.
a 40 S&W is the same thing only brass is cheaper , but I like 45 because they don't make a 46

[44MAG#1]

You see, the penetration of the .357 mag is better. Fact. Deal with it

So penetration is the only part of it. I always wondered about that now I know

[lefty o]

you guys are seriously going to start this again.

[9.3X62AL]

you guys are seriously going to start this again.

It appears so. Ah, well--Caliber Wars are fun on a slow day. I am not sure just how much can be "proven" via ballistic comparisons. All of the fomulae we use to calculate relative stopping power between calibers & loads uses one of the ballistic elements--bullet weight, bullet velocity, or bullet diameter--squares that value--and calculates a result. I prefer the Hatcher Index of Relative Stopping Power as derived from the Thompson-LaGarde tests that involved actual shooting of stockyard "beeves" (gotta love Hatcher's nomenclature). His formula does two things that other formulae don't--1) Hatcher calculates bullet mass in place of its weight, and 2) the value that Hatcher squares--bullet diameter--is the ONLY equation element that squares itself empirically in the real world.

A lot of print and bandwidth has been expended arguing the merits and flaws of the 357 Mag/10mm Auto/41 Mag compared to each other, both as felon repellent and as a hunting impliment. Sometimes the 44 Magnum--45 Colt--and 45 ACP get into the act as well. All 6 of the calibers can certainly do the jobs in both venues, and certainly won't do the wound recipients in those venues any good at all. I like having 16 W-W Silvertips on board with the first magazine in my Glock 20. It is NOT a magazine-fed 41 Magnum, but its initial load-out contains 10 more rounds than my S&W 686 x 4"--and two easily-switched magazines add 30 more bangs to the party. I like the 10mm. I like and shoot all of the other calibers I listed with the 10mm. Most of the time, I CCW with the Glock 20SF or Glock 23. I have loaded the 10mm for 25 years+, and think highly of it as a multi-purpose carry caliber.

[Lloyd Smale]

come on! you know posting using common sense isn't allowed!!!!!!!!!!!
It appears so. Ah, well--Caliber Wars are fun on a slow day. I am not sure just how much can be "proven" via ballistic comparisons. All of the fomulae we use to calculate relative stopping power between calibers & loads uses one of the ballistic elements--bullet weight, bullet velocity, or bullet diameter--squares that value--and calculates a result. I prefer the Hatcher Index of Relative Stopping Power as derived from the Thompson-LaGarde tests that involved actual shooting of stockyard "beeves" (gotta love Hatcher's nomenclature). His formula does two things that other formulae don't--1) Hatcher calculates bullet mass in place of its weight, and 2) the value that Hatcher squares--bullet diameter--is the ONLY equation element that squares itself empirically in the real world.

A lot of print and bandwidth has been expended arguing the merits and flaws of the 357 Mag/10mm Auto/41 Mag compared to each other, both as felon repellent and as a hunting impliment. Sometimes the 44 Magnum--45 Colt--and 45 ACP get into the act as well. All 6 of the calibers can certainly do the jobs in both venues, and certainly won't do the wound recipients in those venues any good at all. I like having 16 W-W Silvertips on board with the first magazine in my Glock 20. It is NOT a magazine-fed 41 Magnum, but its initial load-out contains 10 more rounds than my S&W 686 x 4"--and two easily-switched magazines add 30 more bangs to the party. I like the 10mm. I like and shoot all of the other calibers I listed with the 10mm. Most of the time, I CCW with the Glock 20SF or Glock 23. I have loaded the 10mm for 25 years+, and think highly of it as a multi-purpose carry caliber.

[jmort]

My posts were in response to the notion that

"The 10mm is capable of launching a bullet that is heavier than most .357 mag bullets at speeds that approach or meet .357 mag velocities; so there is an energy advantage to be had."

This is wrong. I deal in fact. The 10mm has an energy disadvantage. Fact. .357 has greater penetration based on its better sectional density. .357, more energy and greater penetration with a decent sized bullet means better caliber to me. Formulas and theories like Hatcher, Taylor et al are useless. Reality and fact rule. That is common sense.

[tazman]

I don't care which has more power or penetration. For my most probable uses, either has more than enough of both.
My concern is for felt recoil. I can only handle so much felt recoil due to my physical capabilities. I know I can handle full power 357 mag loads out of a 6 inch Smith 686.
I need to know if the 10mm in a longslide 1911 recoils more than the 357.
That is my only concern at this point.
If I were interested in loading the 10mm down, I would just stick with a 40S&W or my 45ACP. I probably will anyway since I don't really need another caliber to reload.

[44MAG#1]

My favorite caliber in a Semi-Auto is the 45 Auto. The 10MM is right up against it not a distance second. If I had to pick one it would be the 45 Auto. But a 10MM is nice.

[Ramjet-SS]

I own all of them :bigsmyl2:

[Lloyd Smale]

like I said put the keyboard down and go and kill some game with them then come back with a real world opinion of there effectiveness. Reminds me of the guys who kill two deer with there 223 and claim its a very effective whitetail round. Come back at 20 and give a real opinion. Personally I kind of chuckle at the guys that bash the 10. It gets it from both sides. the 357 and 41 fan boys. Another thing is ive been involved in LOTs of penetration testing. At home, with my buddy and a number of times at the linebaugh seminars. Ive seen about all of them tested. First thing I will tell you is its a comparison not a test and not really even a fair comparison. Change the media your shooting into. Put a good sized shoulder bone in front to shoot through first. Use wet of dry news paper. All of it changes things drastically. One bullet that did exceptional in one testing setup can fall flat on its face in another. Ask anyone that's been at one of the linebaugh tests. I watched a couple 475s shooting 420s and 430s respectably and my 44 shooting a 340lfngc at 1300fps absolutely spank a 458 mag shooting solids. Now faced with a charging buffalo which would you choose???????? REAL WORLD my friend. Because your 357 travels farther in wet news print doesn't mean its a more effective killing round. Not unless your shooting paper mache animals.
You see, the penetration of the .357 mag is better. Fact. Deal with it.
This was the 220 grain 10mm v the 180 grain .357 mag which kicked its ****.
Got to love the 10mm fan-boys. Reality means nothing.

[Lloyd Smale]

so do I ramjet and more then one of each.
I own all of them :bigsmyl2:

[TXCOONDOG]

I don't care which has more power or penetration. For my most probable uses, either has more than enough of both.
My concern is for felt recoil. I can only handle so much felt recoil due to my physical capabilities. I know I can handle full power 357 mag loads out of a 6 inch Smith 686.
I need to know if the 10mm in a longslide 1911 recoils more than the 357.
That is my only concern at this point.
If I were interested in loading the 10mm down, I would just stick with a 40S&W or my 45ACP. I probably will anyway since I don't really need another caliber to reload.

I have a RIA, Model 52,000 (Longslide) in 10mm that weighs nearly 3lbs unloaded and it comes from the manafacture with a 20lb recoil spring. I also have a GP100 with a 6” barrel. They are very similar in felt recoil to me.

I run 8.5 grains of Longshot using the Lee 401-175 cast boolits for every day range loads (1255 fps). For hunting/woods carry, 13grains of AA# 9 with a 200 grain WFN (1300 FPS).

[9.3X62AL]

Internal ballistics (ignition to bullet at muzzle crown) is an exact science. External ballistics (bullet at muzzle crown to target surface) is an exact science. Factor in (or out) the variables, and the result is very predictable with high confidence.

Terminal ballistics--the bullet's behavior from the time it touches the target until it comes to rest--is at best a poorly-understood art form that purports to be scientific. Way too many variables in the equation to make reliable predictions of outcomes. This applies equally to warfare, self-defense shooting, and to the hunting fields. In all three venues the "quarry" is thin-skinned warm-blooded creatures ranging to 300#, with a few larger exceptions like bison and larger bears or a few African species. I don't like to lecture or counsel folks a lot, but one thing I would keep in mind when it comes to stopping bad critters on 2 or 4 legs--don't treat the engagement the way anglers treat their fishing experiences--with a fetish for light tackle, tiny barbless hooks, and fine leaders. Use enough gun & caliber. That ultra-light fixation will get your sorry *** killed.

Lloyd--Plain speaking and common sense has gotten me into trouble here from time to time over the years. If it occurs again, oh well. Some folks just need their truth parceled out in small increments, and choke on larger dosages. A lot of what occurs during these Caliber Wars discussions reminds me of medieval alchemists, churchmen, philosophers, and other like & similar frauds discussing "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

[tazman]

I have a RIA, Model 52,000 (Longslide) in 10mm that weighs nearly 3lbs unloaded and it comes from the manafacture with a 20lb recoil spring. I also have a GP100 with a 6” barrel. They are very similar in felt recoil to me.

I run 8.5 grains of Longshot using the Lee 401-175 cast boolits for every day range loads (1255 fps). For hunting/woods carry, 13grains of AA# 9 with a 200 grain WFN (1300 FPS).

Thanks TXCOONDOG. That is precisely the type of comparison I was looking for. The 175 grain load at 1255fps would probably be about where I would run it. I have a 180 rn mold from NOE that shoots well in my 40S&W that I would be using as well.

[tazman]

Internal ballistics (ignition to bullet at muzzle crown) is an exact science. External ballistics (bullet at muzzle crown to target surface) is an exact science. Factor in (or out) the variables, and the result is very predictable with high confidence.

Terminal ballistics--the bullet's behavior from the time it touches the target until it comes to rest--is at best a poorly-understood art form that purports to be scientific. Way too many variables in the equation to make reliable predictions of outcomes. This applies equally to warfare, self-defense shooting, and to the hunting fields. In all three venues the "quarry" is thin-skinned warm-blooded creatures ranging to 300#, with a few larger exceptions like bison and larger bears or a few African species. I don't like to lecture or counsel folks a lot, but one thing I would keep in mind when it comes to stopping bad critters on 2 or 4 legs--don't treat the engagement the way anglers treat their fishing experiences--with a fetish for light tackle, tiny barbless hooks, and fine leaders. Use enough gun & caliber. That ultra-light fixation will get your sorry *** killed.

Lloyd--Plain speaking and common sense has gotten me into trouble here from time to time over the years. If it occurs again, oh well. Some folks just need their truth parceled out in small increments, and choke on larger dosages. A lot of what occurs during these Caliber Wars discussions reminds me of medieval alchemists, churchmen, philosophers, and other like & similar frauds discussing "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Since I don't hunt with a handgun and the largest, nastiest beast I will possibly need defense from while walking in the woods is a coyote, bobcat, possibly a cougar, or two legged wolf, almost any decent cartridge from 38 special on up will do nicely.
My theory on self defense handguns is simple. Pick something you can shoot well. Hit whatever you are shooting at in a place that hurts them the most. Put several holes in there. I don't expect a single shot to stop any threat.
I have to consider what I am physically able to shoot accurately, consistently, and confidently(getting old stinks). I won't carry a handgun I can't control well. I also don't want to waste a bunch of money buying and testing handguns I may have zero use for.
It is hard to find any gun range that has 1911 pistols in 10mm you can test fire around here. That is why I asked the original question.
Since I already own a couple of very nice 1911 pistols in 45ACP, I expect I can wait until I run across someone who has a 10mm at the range that I frequent.
Thank you all for your input.

[dhom]

I have plenty of hunting handguns so the next logical step for me was a 10MM semi automatic. I am not arguing the power differences or recoil results. The difference in recoil between a 10MM Ruger SR10 and a 6" GP100 .357 are negligible. If you can handle one you can handle the other. Right now I am shooting 165 gr Sierras at 1300 fps in 10MM and I believe they will go deer hunting this year. I would not hesitate to get one.

[Lloyd Smale]

lots of truth and common sense in that post
Internal ballistics (ignition to bullet at muzzle crown) is an exact science. External ballistics (bullet at muzzle crown to target surface) is an exact science. Factor in (or out) the variables, and the result is very predictable with high confidence.

Terminal ballistics--the bullet's behavior from the time it touches the target until it comes to rest--is at best a poorly-understood art form that purports to be scientific. Way too many variables in the equation to make reliable predictions of outcomes. This applies equally to warfare, self-defense shooting, and to the hunting fields. In all three venues the "quarry" is thin-skinned warm-blooded creatures ranging to 300#, with a few larger exceptions like bison and larger bears or a few African species. I don't like to lecture or counsel folks a lot, but one thing I would keep in mind when it comes to stopping bad critters on 2 or 4 legs--don't treat the engagement the way anglers treat their fishing experiences--with a fetish for light tackle, tiny barbless hooks, and fine leaders. Use enough gun & caliber. That ultra-light fixation will get your sorry *** killed.

Lloyd--Plain speaking and common sense has gotten me into trouble here from time to time over the years. If it occurs again, oh well. Some folks just need their truth parceled out in small increments, and choke on larger dosages. A lot of what occurs during these Caliber Wars discussions reminds me of medieval alchemists, churchmen, philosophers, and other like & similar frauds discussing "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

[Lloyd Smale]

go ahead and buy one. You wont regret it. Only downside at all to the 10s in my opinion is brass can be tough to find cheap. But not much harder then finding cheap 357 or 44mag brass today. It isn't like finding 9mm or 40 brass with either.
Since I don't hunt with a handgun and the largest, nastiest beast I will possibly need defense from while walking in the woods is a coyote, bobcat, possibly a cougar, or two legged wolf, almost any decent cartridge from 38 special on up will do nicely.
My theory on self defense handguns is simple. Pick something you can shoot well. Hit whatever you are shooting at in a place that hurts them the most. Put several holes in there. I don't expect a single shot to stop any threat.
I have to consider what I am physically able to shoot accurately, consistently, and confidently(getting old stinks). I won't carry a handgun I can't control well. I also don't want to waste a bunch of money buying and testing handguns I may have zero use for.
It is hard to find any gun range that has 1911 pistols in 10mm you can test fire around here. That is why I asked the original question.
Since I already own a couple of very nice 1911 pistols in 45ACP, I expect I can wait until I run across someone who has a 10mm at the range that I frequent.
Thank you all for your input.

[44MAG#1]

"A lot of what occurs during these Caliber Wars discussions reminds me of medieval alchemists, churchmen, philosophers, and other like & similar frauds discussing "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

As long as it is a level playing field when comparing it is okay. I am a revolver person but I have been guilty of comparing a 5 inch semi auto to a 5 inch revolver. Not the same. The semi auto has a 5 inch barrel including chamber. A 5 inch revolver has a barrel 5 inches long excluding chamber. Flash gap be darned. Barrel and chamber included is a level playing field.
Again I am a revolver person, but I want to be fair.

[Ramjet-SS]

so do I ramjet and more then one of each.

Right

This allows you to compare and play around with not not these calibers but different delivery options too.

The 357 mag that shoot are one Chiappa snubby I really like carrying that gun when rising my MTB bike. Potent little revolver when loaded for self defense. The other favorite is a Henry brass carbine. That gun is absolute joy to shoot.

Now 10mm I have many. Several Long-slide 1911 in 10 and a Glock model 40 with a 7" KKM and a Trijicon RMR mounted on top. I have the reliable model 20 and a commander length custom from Reeder which is RIA 1911. I also have Kriss Vector carbine in 10. One of my favorites is my G2 carbine with rear folding stock and 18" barrel it is tack driver and really loves my 200 gran GC WFN. The 10 does not really see much benefit with Power Pistol in barrels over 7" my carbine and Glock are within 50 FPS in velocity. I shoot allot of 10mm I have dedicated progressive press setup for the 10mm only. Great caliber fun bunch guns to shoot all searving a purpose.

The only 41 caliber in handgun is a Reeder 41 GNR that is a 44 necked down to 41 caliber it is hammer and powerful little gun that I would not hesitate shooting an elk with.

The truth be told for self defense on day to day basis I carry a 45 ACP or a nine in the summer. Full size I love my Springfield 1911 but the gun with capacity and I shoot really well in 45 is my PPQ. I just shoot that gun really well. For deep concealment my Springfiled XDS IWB fills that need. Pocket carry is a Smith and Wesson 642 loaded with Ranger JHP.

I see no value in caliber wars each person needs to make a decision for themselves using information and expereince they gleen from research and personal experience.

Like I said I own them all and many more.

My latest affliction is the 450 Bushmaster these are great little rifles and working with them is fun and interesting.

So buy what turns your fancy and shoot them allot and have fun and become proficient.

[Lloyd Smale]

I want an 8.5 inch AR pistol in 450!!!!

[6bg6ga]

I had a extremely accurate Glock 20 and I didn't think the recoil was any different than my 1911's maybe a little snappy but nothing that the average person couldn't handle. Its a great round and I got rid of mine when I couldn't find any brass at a reasonable price. Wish I still had it.

[44MAG#1]

I had a extremely accurate Glock 20 and I didn't think the recoil was any different than my 1911's maybe a little snappy but nothing that the average person couldn't handle. Its a great round and I got rid of mine when I couldn't find any brass at a reasonable price. Wish I still had it.

What do you call reasonable?

[Outer Rondacker]

For brass you are doing it all wrong. You need to let a few guys who you know do not reload and have more money then brains shoot the 10mm. They then run out and buy one and a bunch of ammo to blow at the range. Then pick up their brass. That is how I got mine. That is how I got most of my less common brass. Oh and it helps if the range is at your house.

[6bg6ga]

What do you call reasonable?

I made a profit so it was gone.

[6bg6ga]

For brass you are doing it all wrong. You need to let a few guys who you know do not reload and have more money then brains shoot the 10mm. They then run out and buy one and a bunch of ammo to blow at the range. Then pick up their brass. That is how I got mine. That is how I got most of my less common brass. Oh and it helps if the range is at your house.

That is how I got all my 9mm and 40 cal brass. My 45acp is harder to find.

[Lloyd Smale]

all inviting others to come and shoot with me ever did was cost me money!

[6bg6ga]

all inviting others to come and shoot with me ever did was cost me money!

Usually I ended up furnishing the ammo. I hear ya.

[44MAG#1]

Im still trying to establish what a reasonable price on brass is for a 10MM. New that is.

[6bg6ga]

Im still trying to establish what a reasonable price on brass is for a 10MM. New that is.



https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/10MM-Auto-Brass/

I consider their prices to be reasonable.

[vzerone]

like I said put the keyboard down and go and kill some game with them then come back with a real world opinion of there effectiveness. Reminds me of the guys who kill two deer with there 223 and claim its a very effective whitetail round. Come back at 20 and give a real opinion. Personally I kind of chuckle at the guys that bash the 10. It gets it from both sides. the 357 and 41 fan boys. Another thing is ive been involved in LOTs of penetration testing. At home, with my buddy and a number of times at the linebaugh seminars. Ive seen about all of them tested. First thing I will tell you is its a comparison not a test and not really even a fair comparison. Change the media your shooting into. Put a good sized shoulder bone in front to shoot through first. Use wet of dry news paper. All of it changes things drastically. One bullet that did exceptional in one testing setup can fall flat on its face in another. Ask anyone that's been at one of the linebaugh tests. I watched a couple 475s shooting 420s and 430s respectably and my 44 shooting a 340lfngc at 1300fps absolutely spank a 458 mag shooting solids. Now faced with a charging buffalo which would you choose???????? REAL WORLD my friend. Because your 357 travels farther in wet news print doesn't mean its a more effective killing round. Not unless your shooting paper mache animals.

I have to agree with you Lloyd. Razor Dobbs killed two cape buffaloes with a 5 inch barreled Sig 1911 in 10mm. He had through and through penetration on both of them and was using, I believe, Sledgehammer hard cast. I watched it on video and can say I sure as hell wouldn't want to to it with a 357 Magnum revolver.

I have a long slide in both the Glock and the 1911. To me the Glock soaks up more of the recoil then the 1911. Someone mentioned a ported pistol, well they are much much louder then a non-ported one. If you can handle a 357 or 45acp, the 10mm isn't much different in recoil.

It's not real easy finding a holster for a long slide 1911!

Brass for the 10mm? There are tons of it by two members on the Trader Board and I've bought much of it...cheap! Yes once fired.

[Gunslinger1911]

Starline for new, Diamond K for once fired - $17/100 I think.
I lucked out, found once fired at local gun show - $10/100, bought 400.