Isotope container analysis

[kevin c]

I have gotten a lot from this forum over the past couple years. Time to give back.

I've bought a fair number of isotope containers from radiopharmacies, some types in large numbers, others types just one or two. Being more than just a little picky I wanted to know exactly what I was getting, especially as an analysis I did on a couple big containers came back not showing any tin at all. Thanks to BNE, I now know, and can share the information with anybody else who comes across the same containers.

Many of the containers I have found are different from the ones sqlbullet has put up on the felling family webpage, so I think what I have here is mostly additional information.

Be advised: other threads have already shown that some identical looking containers (the big 32# generators come to mind) can vary in content. I have only done one analysis on one sample of each. So it is only an assumption that other containers of the same type are the same alloy.

BNE has also advised me that the inherent variability of the XRF technique, both in sampling and in the detection/analysis/reading, makes any number +/- by a couple tenths of a percent. I have seen this myself where a hand held Niton got four different numbers on four readings on the same ingot of alloy, including two readings from the same spot. Of course, as has been said here before, it's not like we're doing rocket science.

217646

The first thin blue container contained Xenon gas ampules. The long one weighs 19 ounces, is 9" long and 3/4" diameter, with a small knurled cap with an O ring that weighs another 1.2 ounces. There is often a foam insert deep inside. Content on this example 2.5 % Sb, the rest Pb.

217647

The container above is about 41 ounces, including the cap, and has a rounded base with a flat top. 3 3/4" tall, 2" diameter. Some specimens had a fiber pad and also residual adhesive from labels or padding. Content on this specimen was 1.6% Sb, the rest Pb. This was the lowest Sb content, and I could tell by the relative softness of the metal.

217648

The container above is 11 ounces, including the cap, rounded on top and bottom, 2 1/2" tall and 1 1/2" diameter. This sample was 2.6% Sb, the rest Pb.

217649

217650

This purple container, with a cap labeled F-335, weighs 35 ounces, with total height 3 3/4" and 1 3/4" around. The base alone is 3 1/8" tall and weighs 27.6 ounces. The flanged cap is 3/4" tall and weighs 7.1 ounces. Content on this sample was 2.5% Sb, the rest Pb.

217651

This little container weighs about 6 1/2 ounces with the cap, which reads Medi+Physics.Inc and is 2 3/8" tall with the cap and 1 1/8" diameter. Content on this specimen was 2.3% Sb, the balance Pb.

217652

This is a two part container. The large piece is 31 ounces (metal portion only) and is 5 1/2" long, has a 2" diameter open top and a closed base 1 1/4" diameter. The small piece is 10 ounces (metal portion only), 2 5/8" long, 1 1/4" closed end and a 2 1/8" flanged open end. There is ribbing on the side. 2.3% Sb and the rest Pb for each.

Both parts have internal plastic cores, one of which is at the top of the picture, and the same plastic as a external sheath with threads that screw together. These plastic parts in most samples come out easily but in some are hot glued in and can be a pain to remove. On melting the metal the plastic may melt, bubble or burn. Some care is needed not to submerge any plastic in a melt to avoid spattering.

217653

This is a 32 ounce container with a reduced diameter opening and a lid that has a slightly greenish varnish on it. 3 1/4" tall, 1 3/4" base diameter, 1 1/2" on the open end. The lid, which has an adhesive pad, is not a tight fit. (I could have gotten the lid from another container in error, but there was no other container in what I got that was a closer fit. It is also possible that there was a missing outer top cover of the same diameter as the bottom half). Analysis for this specimen showed 2.4% Sb, the rest Pb.

217991

This and the next container were the first I got. Sorry about the orientation of the images. I'll fix that with new pix if I get more (the containers are melted down already). Content on this one, the heaviest I've gotten so far at 58#, 5" diameter and 7.25" tall (bigger are reportedly out there, but I haven't gotten any).was 3.8% Sb, the rest Pb.

217992

This is one the large containers I got some time ago, weighing in at 37#, 4.5" diameter and 6" tall. Content was 2.1% Sb, the rest Pb
.
More containers when I get pix. So far only one container (image and data coming) had any tin in it. The rest are all alloys of lead and antimony.

[Reddirt62]

Thanks for the info!

"Pardon me whilst I adjust my accrutiments." Daffy Duck

[lightman]

Thanks for going to the effort and expense to do this and post it. I have some of the 32# containers that I need to have tested. I was really hoping to see at least a little tin in these. Oh well, we can always add whatever we need.

[LenH]

Thanks for going to the effort and expense to do this and post it. I have some of the 32# containers that I need to have tested. I was really hoping to see at least a little tin in these. Oh well, we can always add whatever we need.

From Hammerline :
Pb = 96.19%
Sn = 0.53%
Sb = 2.85%
Cu = 0.20%
As = 0.23%
The ones I got from him have been good for most of my needs, .45 Colt, .45 ACP & .38/.357. The alloy is about 10.5 BNH tested with a Cabine Tree tester.

[sqlbullet]

http://fellingfamily.net/isolead/

[kevin c]

Thank you, sqlbullet!

[kevin c]

Three more isotope containers.

217993

This yellow painted container was for iodine. This stuff must be pretty hot because it, like the 58 and 37 pound iodine containers has very heavy walls. It has a main inner container that weighs 13# 9 oz in top and bottom portions that are 3 and 1/8" around and together are 4 and 1/2" tall, and an outer container that weighs 5# 11 oz with much thinner walls that is 3 and 5/8" diameter and 5" tall. The inner container is 2.3% Sb, the rest Pb. Presumably the outer container is the same (analysis pending to be sure).

217994

This is a straight walled 20 ounce container 3" tall with the top and 1 1/2 " diameter. There may be an open cell foam insert. Analysis in this specimen was 2.5% Sb, the rest Pb.

217995

This is a 8 ounce, 2 1/2" tall container that has a slightly tapered body. The cap has a 1 1/4" diameter, the base is 1 1/8". It is unpainted but usually has adhesive labels covered in plastic. There may be a styrofoam insert. It was the only container I got that had tin in it, with BNE's analysis in the sample I gave him showing 4.9% Sb, 2.3% Sn, and the balance Pb.

Thanks again are due to BNE for the analyses, and to sqlbullet whose idea to provide iso container information useful to casters this was in the first place, and who did all the original work himself.

[OS OK]

This leaves me wondering why Bumpo's calculator list two types of containers and both contain Sb as much as 2.5 ~ 3% ?

Thanks for this information...though these containers vary in %'age of Sn, I still like it an use it often...it at least is a very clean source of lead.

[kevin c]

Yeah, I was a bit disappointed when I analyzed my big 32# generators (the ones shaped like grenades) and didn't find any tin at all (I read here they were 96-3-1). And when I've analyzed different lots of the same styles of containers, there's a bit of variation outside BNE's expected range.

I guess the content varies depending on the manufacturer. Maybe it's like many kinds of produced goods: there's a standard required (here, radiation blocking) and how it's achieved is up to the maker. For consistency, each manufacturer may use a consistent alloy, but perhaps different from a competitor.

Still, it's been 2.5 to 3 percent Sb for just about all the containers I've checked, very clean, and with minimal waste and dross when processed, so I shouldn't complain.

[OS OK]

@ kevin c

How does one find these places in their Cities and States that store the containers until they are safe to recycle?

Mine have been coming off the East Coast.

[kevin c]

Even though I am an old, crotchety, analog kind of guy, I managed to do a google search for radiopharmacies, filtered to my area. It helps to live in a large metropolitan area with lots of tertiary level medical centers where the isotopes are used for imaging, tracing and cancer treatment. In my area the radiopharmacies prepare the isotopes and courier them to the different centers. They get them from cyclotrons and breeder reactors. The empty containers aren't worth the manpower and shipping cost to be sent back for reuse, so they sit in a corner until any slight radioactive contamination decays to background level. Given the short half lives of the isotopes used (no more than days and commonly just minutes to hours) that takes two or three months at most. Then they get sold as scrap to a metals recycler.

Just like other scrap sources, offering over what the recycler pays, along with incentives like snacks for the staff (who will remind the manager that "the lead guy" can relieve him of that heavy metal waste in the back room) can pay off.

Be advised, it can be a LOT of lead. Making any kind of agreement for regular pickup can quickly add up, dollar and poundage (more like tonnage) wise.

[Green Frog]

Yeah, I was a bit disappointed when I analyzed my big 32# generators (the ones shaped like grenades) and didn't find any tin at all (I read here they were 96-3-1). And when I've analyzed different lots of the same styles of containers, there's a bit of variation outside BNE's expected range.

I guess the content varies depending on the manufacturer. Maybe it's like many kinds of produced goods: there's a standard required (here, radiation blocking) and how it's achieved is up to the maker. For consistency, each manufacturer may use a consistent alloy, but perhaps different from a competitor.

Still, it's been 2.5 to 3 percent Sb for just about all the containers I've checked, very clean, and with minimal waste and dross when processed, so I shouldn't complain.

I may be the oddball here, but since I 1) shoot a fair amount of muzzle loading, and 2) like to mix precise alloys from scratch (preferably with NO antimony) the closer to pure my resource lead is, the better I like it. I’ve got a pile of pure tin and a good source for more, as well as a fair amount of Lino- and Monotype just in case I need to use some antimony. Yep, give me the purest lead available... I’ll handle it from there! 8-)

Froggie

[lightman]

It seems like isotope lead has changed over the years but its usually very clean lead. I probably would melt a large batch together and send a sample off for test.

Thanks for posting this info.

[kevin c]

I may be the oddball here, but since I 1) shoot a fair amount of muzzle loading, and 2) like to mix precise alloys from scratch (preferably with NO antimony) the closer to pure my resource lead is, the better I like it...Yep, give me the purest lead available... I’ll handle it from there! 8-)

Froggie

Then you'd like the shielding lead (not the containers, which need to be harder to stand up to handling) that the pharmacies sometimes also scrap. I've had it analyzed: at least 99.9% pure.

[kevin c]

It seems like isotope lead has changed over the years but its usually very clean lead. I probably would melt a large batch together and send a sample off for test.

Thanks for posting this info.

I do that (BNE is such an incredible boon to the casting community). Sometimes I get carried away: on occasion I have so many varied scrapped containers that I process them into 10# ingots 20 at a time from a one pot batch, then recombine the same number of ingots from each batch into new ingots, doing that repeatedly so I end up with all the ingots mixed the same, and then send a sample to BNE, which now applies to everything I just made up. It's a significant labor, time and propane consumer, but I think it worthwhile for consistency's sake. Others' MMV.