100 year old rifle question

[almostgone]

I've got an almost 100 year old rifle, M1917 Eddystone barrel dated 4-18 and serial #is in that month. It was rearsenaled during WW2 at Odgen Arsenal and put in cosmoline. The rifle was prestine then and nothing appears to have been done to it other than inspection and cosmoline. It really looks like it's never been issued. I've had it about 20 years and it's still in the grease. My question is do I want to clean it up and shoot it with cast or should I just leave it in the grease and hand it down to posterity? It's not like I don't have other 30-06s to shoot. So what do I do? Appreciate any responses.

[Hamish]

If this was a collector forum you would mostly get collector answers. Since this is a shooting forum, you're going to get mostly shooter answers,,,,,.

Personally, it makes me a little ill when firearms never see the light of day.

[Hickory]

It's Easter, time for it to be resurrected.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have 4 Winchesters and regularly shoot them with cast boolits without destroying their collector value!

https://i.imgur.com/Lkp2rnA.png

[Gewehr-Guy]

Beautiful rifles, can you tell us about the two rear sights, I've never seen one like them before. Also, is the bottom stock a P-14?

[georgerkahn]

Other than being a tad heavy (~10 pounds) for my tired bones to carry, there's not anything else I can say not-good about the rifle you have! If it were mine, I'd spend the time and clean it up! To remove the Cosmoline is often not a quick and easy operation, sometimes requiring multiple applications of solvent complemented with arduous wearing out of both brass and nylon brushes! That said, you may wish to identify the parts complement in your rifle. Albeit you note it as "pristine", it is indeed rare that, say, a Remington is ALL Remington; a Winchester ALL Win, etc. The armorers at Ogden, I'd surely venture, had the integrity of the parts they replaced as their #1 priority; WHO manufactured them as their lowest. I have four 1917s, and all came with mixed parts.
A couple of gents -- http://oldguns.net/catacc.htm -- offer a service where you may swap out almost all 1917 parts to enable you to make yours 100% (or close ;) ) to any one manufacture, if you wish to do that!
If it were mine -- I'd clean it up. De-cosmoline it. If there are parts you wish to swap, get in contact with John &/or Mark to swap as needed. Take it to a reputable gunsmith to ascertain it being safe to shoot. And... take it to range!
Vis "handing it down..", I'd think, too, it be worth more to an heir that both YOU restored and fired it; PLUS, handing down a gorgeous, accurate, shootable firearm! The 1917s action was/is so good, it became the base for many sporterized custom rifles through the years -- you indeed have a prize to be cherished!
BEST!
geo

[Uncle Grinch]

Low heat is one of the best ways to remove cosmoline. I built a box lined with tin foil with a couple of light bulbs inside. A bar across the top allowed the disassembled rifle to hang and a drip pan in the bottom caught the drippings. No chemicals or scraping needed. Wipe down the parts with a little mineral spirits when through.

[TNsailorman]

I have seen rust under cosmoline before. It depends on how well the rifle was stored (dry, clean storage). I would clean it up really well and then you can make a decision from there. I like the 1917, it is one of my all time favorites. Yes, it is heavy and getting heavier every year. my experience anyway, james

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Beautiful rifles, can you tell us about the two rear sights, I've never seen one like them before. Also, is the bottom stock a P-14?
There are a mix of M17 and P14. The rear sights are Parker-Hale 5B which fit neatly between the action ears. They have 1/2 minute clicks. They shoot cast boolits very well.

https://i.imgur.com/6ZHTzV8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/K1Eu3Oo.jpg

[Texas by God]

Cleaning up that old girl would be a labor of love. Get after it and let it roar again. I'm jealous to tell the truth.

[lefty o]

clean it up and shoot it. so long as you dont abuse it and take care of it, shooting it wont hurt its value.

[marlin39a]

Why pass life by, so someone else can enjoy it? Clean it up, and enjoy it.

[ukrifleman]

Take a photograph of it as is, then clean it up and shoot it!

ukrifleman

[higgins]

True cosmoline has a wax-like consistency after drying, but automotive type grease would probably be similar to cosmoline after drying long enough. If it's still a bit greasy it can be cleaned off of the metal parts with kerosene or mineral spirits. Put the small pieces in a pan and put them outside to soak. Kroil is good to clean the bore if you have any; if not, the above will do until you get the bulk of the grease out.

Clean grease from the wood with mineral spirits and patience, and ignore suggestions to put the stock in the dishwasher or use oven cleaner to degrease it. Neither are designed for use on wood, but mineral spirits will do no harm.

[EDG]

The greatest value you can get from a nice rifle is to carefully use it until it is worn out. No cash value can ever match the satisfaction of long use.

[Texas by God]

I used to clean them with a can of gasoline and a parts brush. All steel parts in the bucket, lean the stock up against the metal shop in full summer sun and keep wiping away the cosmo as it bleeds out of the wood. Good times!

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[john.k]

When I was a kid,I bought a M17 E solid with cosmoline for $12.....all the money I had.I dug it out with ice cream sticks.....and got the sticky waxy goo everywhere.Any time the gun was out in the sun,the stock would sweat liquid oil,and be so slippery you could not hold it without wiping down..........but a couple of years later ,I went to work ,and the surplus barrelled actions were put through a tri chlor ethane bath,the cosmoline simply disappeared,and was left in the sump of the machine .

[texasnative46]

almostgone,

I would degrease the rifle thoroughly & shoot, shoot, shoot it. = GREAT rifle for shooting most any game in the Western Hemisphere from a tower blind, inasmuch as it IS heavy to tote when stalking.

Every 1917 that I've ever shot did fine out to 300+M with M2 ball or an equivalent handload.

The BEST way that I've discovered to degrease an oil/grease soaked stock is sealing it up in a BLACK plastic trash bag with kitty little & putting it out in the direct sunlight for a HOT Texas day. = Let EL SOL do the hard job & then disassemble & complete the job with mineral spirits & a stack of cotton rags.
(I've sometimes put the barreled action & other metal parts into the Scout camp's commercial size dishwasher & running it on "heavy duty" cycle. - Then thoroughly dry & re-lubricate the metal parts.)

BEST WISHES, tex.

[almostgone]

Thank you All for your responses I really value your opinions. My inclination was towards cleaning and shooting, since I've got the urge to do something with it. I was looking to see if someone had a really good reason not to. I appreciate the tips on cleaning it up. It's curious that it appears to be more like grease than the cosmoline (Russian & chicom)I have run into in the past. I will take some before and after pics and hopefully learn how to post. So far all I've found is nice blued steel and a OGEK cartouche. Thank you

[Multigunner]

If it were mine I'd have been shooting with it since I first got it. For those who still have doubts about this sort of thing I suggest that they first offer it for sale as is and if no one offers far more than its really worth simply because its in the wrap then clean it up and have at it. If they are willing to pay double what it would cost for a cleaned up example then buy two good rifles with low mileage.

Mummy wrapped No.4s were going for ridiculous prices a few years back.

In some cases old Cosmoline can shrink away from metal as it ages leaving an air space where moist air can condense in the cold and rust the steel with no one the wiser till the cosmo is removed.

[atr]

my "philosophy" is: if its shoot-able,,,,then shoot it...
otherwise why have it ?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

They say ladies of the evening are only too ready to lure respectable women into a lifestyle which has seldom proven entirely satisfactory for them... But still, nobody at all advising you to keep it as it is, seems to go beyond that. Moderate use even with jacketed bullets and well chosen smokeless powder, which can be far less erosive than cordite, will leave it accurate long after you have gone where cash isn't negotiable.

At the very least, thorough cleaning and displaying with less obtrusive rust protection seems in order. Maybe someone tossed a coin to decide whether to store it for use or stamp it "Drill purpose". But some of those rifles saw almost no shooting. Wouldn't you want to know?

Parts interchangeability between factories wasn't guaranteed, and parts stamped "IE" and so on identify them. But often the parts work, with or without very simple alteration. Eddystones have the reputation of being the most liable to production faults, such as the cracking receiver rings. But my only P14 (sporterised as a heavy .300H&H, but it was really rough) was an Eddystone, and it was very sound. I think if you get a good one, you've got a good one.

The aperture sight appears sometimes, probably described as for the P14, on www.ebay.co.uk , and there is no legal obstacle to exporting them. It won't be cheap, as they aren't making them any more. But it will probably be more variable, if you can wait around, than sights for the Lee-Enfields, which have more of a following. I think there is probably an almost identical version made by Alfred J. Parker, who split off from the company like Sam Goldwyn from MGM.

[Adam Helmer]

I would shoot the P-17. I got my first Eddystone in 1963 for $7.50. I got a mint Winchester P-17 in 1967 while in college for $25 and then a low numbered ( 8,XXX serial number) Remington P-17 a few months later for $20.00. All are excellent and like my cast boolits.

Adam

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If you had some provenance for this Rifle making it worth more than another M1917 Eddystone without any provenance, then I'd consider not shooting it. Either way, I'd clean it up and store/care for it, like any other firearm you own.

About 6 years ago, I bought 2 S&W revolvers (from the 1970s), the seller/collector claimed both were unfired and in the box with all the goodies. The seller had about a dozen various models of S&W revolvers in the same condition, I wish I had the funds to have bought them all...anyway, it was a most difficult decision to bring them to the range and heat them up...now, after the fact, I have no regrets.

[Texas by God]

There are precious few military rifles that just feel RIGHT when I shoulder them. The P14/M17 are on that short list.

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[jumbeaux]

I would certainly clean her up and enjoy shooting. Didn't Remington use the M1917 action as the basis for the Model 30 ?

rick

[Texas by God]

I would certainly clean her up and enjoy shooting. Didn't Remington use the M1917 action as the basis for the Model 30 ?

rick
Yes they did. And A-Square built large bore African rifles using the 1917 action. It's a workhorse.

[fjruple]

I've got an almost 100 year old rifle, M1917 Eddystone barrel dated 4-18 and serial #is in that month. It was rearsenaled during WW2 at Odgen Arsenal and put in cosmoline. The rifle was prestine then and nothing appears to have been done to it other than inspection and cosmoline. It really looks like it's never been issued. I've had it about 20 years and it's still in the grease. My question is do I want to clean it up and shoot it with cast or should I just leave it in the grease and hand it down to posterity? It's not like I don't have other 30-06s to shoot. So what do I do? Appreciate any responses.

I would say use it!! Since your in NC and its starting to get hot out!! LOL!! I would disassemble the rifle and wipe down as much of the cosmoline as possible. Then wrap up the barreled receiver and stock in paper towels and place in black plastic trash bags and place outside in the sun for several hours. You be surprised at the amount of grease, cosmoline and dirt that will ooze out of the stock and other parts. These rifles are fine to shoot if the barrel is good shape. I for one have placed several Match Parker Hale PH-5 rear sights on my M1917s and P14 for target shooting. I have always been surprised that the M1917 did not caught on in the US as a military target rifle.
As far as your rifle is concerned, The WWII builds ranged widely from just an inspection and cleaning to a complete break down and overhaul. I have seen WWII rebuilds which have three rebuild stamps on the stock. If you reload they are great for light loads with a flat based bullet especially in the original 5 groove barrels. For some reason the original barrels do not like the boat tail match bullets. There is also a popular myth going around that the original M1917 used the same bore diameter as the earlier produced P14, that is not true! Is the Eddystone M1917 rare? Not really, Eddystone produced over a million rifles in the short span of US involvement in WWI.

[evoevil]

well I'm a shooter ......... so Id shoot it....LOL

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
I also write "Shoot it!" Some years ago we bought a brand new in the box Colt Police Positive Special (38 Special). Promptly took it out and fired 6 of our home brews to be sure it was shootable. One of the few revolvers we know for sure has never been contaminated with "jacketed things".
If it had been a real collector piece that is different... But there are millions of P-17's...
Mike in Peru

[opos]

Love those old canons..I worked in a gun shop in the 50's while going to college....a 1917 in like new shape was about $25...we all made "deer rifles" out of them back then..I really put a lot of game on the table for our young family...today I have a 25-06 built on a 1917 Winchester that is a marvelous old rifle and 2 pristine Remingtons that sport their original dress.

Cosmoline is your friend...I had a guy give me 2 old Mosins that were thick with cosmoline. I took them...wrapped them in disposable diapers...put the rifle in the diapers in a black trash bag and let it sit in my old Suburban for a few days in the hot desert sun we get on occasion...it worked well on most of the bad stuff and the rest got scrubbed off with laquer thinner. Don't get mad at the pictures of the 25-06...I didn't cut this one up...a tack driver with the Douglas barrel...

217598

217599217599

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The P14 and M1917 aren't the most portable or fast-moving military rifles in the world. It was designed around the lessons of the only large war in history in which the rifle was the dominant weapon. So it is big enough and strong enough to accommodate a cartridge not unlike the 7mm. Remington Magnum, and it was nowhere near as good as the Lee-Enfield at coping with the mud of Flanders. But it introduced a well-protected receiver sight, which has remained a feature of US military rifles to this day.

Here are before and after pictures of my .300H&H, with the lightest of the straight tapered Shilen barrels, and the receiver modified for a small (i.e. non-Palma) Redfield receiver sight.


217605

[almostgone]

Nice rifles! Yes they are stout

[55fairlane]

I would send me that rifle and I will give my 10-22 for trade.....omg I want one of those bad.......and yours is as new after rearsonal......omg.......

Nice rifle

[cwtebay]

I've got an almost 100 year old rifle, M1917 Eddystone barrel dated 4-18 and serial #is in that month. It was rearsenaled during WW2 at Odgen Arsenal and put in cosmoline. The rifle was prestine then and nothing appears to have been done to it other than inspection and cosmoline. It really looks like it's never been issued. I've had it about 20 years and it's still in the grease. My question is do I want to clean it up and shoot it with cast or should I just leave it in the grease and hand it down to posterity? It's not like I don't have other 30-06s to shoot. So what do I do? Appreciate any responses.I also vote to shoot the ole gal! However, a client of mine ended up with a complete Winnie Eddystone all cosmolined up and wrapped in some sort of oil cloth (muslin?) - he sold it and took his wife and son to Russia bear hunting on the proceeds.......
What a wonderful conundrum for you to have!!

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[knifemaker]

You said you found a "OGEK" cartouche on the rifle. That would be for the Ogden, Utah arsenal and the EK may be for Elmer Keith who I believe worked for the Ogden arsenal during WW11. I am going from memory on this one and I may be mistaken. I am fairly sure that I read that he was a firearms inspector for the arsenal during WW11 when your rifle was repaired for re-issue.

[Bigslug]

Thank you All for your responses I really value your opinions. My inclination was towards cleaning and shooting, since I've got the urge to do something with it. I was looking to see if someone had a really good reason not to. I appreciate the tips on cleaning it up. It's curious that it appears to be more like grease than the cosmoline (Russian & chicom)I have run into in the past. I will take some before and after pics and hopefully learn how to post. So far all I've found is nice blued steel and a OGEK cartouche. Thank you

I would be inclined to leave it in mothballs - as you say, you have other .30-06's, and when it comes to pieces of history, by definition, they aren't making them anymore.

Also, that OGEK cartouche is, to my understanding, OGden Utah, Elmer Keith, which is certainly going to add some to the value.

[Texas by God]

Elmer Keith would clean it up and shoot it, after all it passed his inspection.

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[Herb in Pa]

I would certainly clean her up and enjoy shooting. Didn't Remington use the M1917 action as the basis for the Model 30 ?

rick

1917 Eddystone (with new Criterion barrel) and Remington Model 30 Express..........217759

[Heavy Metal 1]

You said you found a "OGEK" cartouche on the rifle. That would be for the Ogden, Utah arsenal and the EK may be for Elmer Keith who I believe worked for the Ogden arsenal during WW11. I am going from memory on this one and I may be mistaken. I am fairly sure that I read that he was a firearms inspector for the arsenal during WW11 when your rifle was repaired for re-issue.

OGEK is Elmer Keith ONLY IF there is a rectangle "box" around the initials otherwise it is not his stamp. OGEK without the rectangle "box" is Ed Klouser

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've always been curious to know if anybody has seen an Eddystone P14 with an inspector's stamp for some part of John Charles Walsham Reith.

John Reith, later Lord Reith of the BBC, was later the originator of the concept that broadcasting should be a public service, and yet largely outside government control. This website doesn't give a full idea of his vehemence. He was a Presbyterian fundamentalist, six and a half feet tall, and got the inspector's job at Eddystone by being shot through the cheek and shoulder by a German sniper on the brickstacks at Cuinchy, upon which he wrote a note telling his family that he was perfectly all right, walked half a mile to the dressing station with the stretcherbearers tagging along protesting, and broke hospital to see "The Birth of a Nation" three weeks later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Reith,_1st_Baron_Reith

At Eddystone he dealt effectively with an inability to meet the standards of the British inspectors which was holding up deliveries He probably made both sides a few offers they couldn't refuse, but part of it was done by eliminating features of the specification which did no good to anybody. He certainly had an inspector's punch, as he used to give impressionable young American ladies cartridges stamped with it. I often wonder if he was quite right about what would impress them.

I remember him on TV in retirement, in the 1950s, looking like John Brown of Kansas in one of his sterner moods, and saying that television was the most dangerous social force we know. I wondered at the time why they let him say that on TV. Probably he told them they had to.

[Eddie Southgate]

Never could see owning anything I wouldn't use . Clean it up and shoot it .

[Multigunner]

There is also a popular myth going around that the original M1917 used the same bore diameter as the earlier produced P14, that is not true!

Many of the earlier production M1917 barrels were made using .30-40 Krag manufacturing tolerances rather than the Springfield .30-06 bore tolerances. This resulted in some slightly over sized bores which were not a problem when flat based bullets as found with the original WW1 .30-06 Ball and the later M2 Ball were used.

I'd heard of M1917 bores that slugged at .311 which is the minimum commercial spec for the .303 but two thousandths smaller than the .313 minimum milspec bore for the .303.

It was found that the narrow and deep grooved Enfield bore of the M1917 could remain accurate enough for combat use for 30,000 and up to 50,000 rounds in some cases, so long as ammo with single base powders were used. That was a far better bore life than any contemporary infantry rifle.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Many of the earlier production M1917 barrels were made using .30-40 Krag manufacturing tolerances rather than the Springfield .30-06 bore tolerances. This resulted in some slightly over sized bores which were not a problem when flat based bullets as found with the original WW1 .30-06 Ball and the later M2 Ball were used.

I'd heard of M1917 bores that slugged at .311 which is the minimum commercial spec for the .303 but two thousandths smaller than the .313 minimum milspec bore for the .303.

It was found that the narrow and deep grooved Enfield bore of the M1917 could remain accurate enough for combat use for 30,000 and up to 50,000 rounds in some cases, so long as ammo with single base powders were used. That was a far better bore life than any contemporary infantry rifle.

That fits what General Hatcher says about the M1917 bore. He rejects the frequent suggestion that the M1917 had a loose bore because they simply continued using the .303 P14 dimensions. The standard bore, which he illustrates, was .300 and the grooves .005in. deep. Were that all, it would be looser than the Springfield, but its five grooves and lands were equal in length, while the Springfield's grooves were much wider than the lands. This adds up to the cross-sectional area of the bore being slightly tighter for the M1917.

The WW2 two-grooved barrel was of the same specification as the Springfield. Some were also rebarrelled with four grooves, chiefly by Hi-Standard, and I think it likely that the same applies.

The M1917 bore does retain two things which the British design inherited from the Lee-Enfield. The rifling twist is left-handed. At extreme range there are two kinds of bullet drift, gyroscopic precession and the coriolis effect, caused by the rotation of the earth. The latter is in opposite directions in the northern and southern hemispheres. In the northern hemisphere right-hand twist makes them cumulative, while left-hand subtracts one from the other. It was thought rightly, that the next major war was nearly sure to happen in Europe, and it was just our luck to have the only long-range rifle war in history in South Africa.

We all know as much about precession and coriolis drift as we need to, since it is just a matter of subtracting the infinitesimal from the very slight, and makes no difference at all to almost anyone. (With long-range artillery it is different.) But there is a little more point (although plenty have done without it) to the five grooves. I believe they rifled the barrels on the ordinary single-cutter Pratt and Whitney machine of the time, the one custom barrel-makers still covet. By having a land rather than two corners opposite the groove being cut, you reduce the chances of the tool chattering and cutting a rough surface.

[Shiloh]

If it was mine, it would be degreased andcleaned up, the stock rubbed with organic BLO cut with genuine turpentine, oiled and fired with cast on a regular basis.
It can still be handed down.

SHiloh