Gas Checks in Ported Revolvers

[spongeman66]

Hello All! This is my first post to this forum, but I am a reglar contributor to glocktalk...Those glock guys are cast bullet phobic...

I just got a Taurus Raging Bull in 454 Casull. I loaded up some 255 SWC bullets from Kead to just over 1500 FPS. Lots of fun to shoot, and less leading than I expected in the barrel. The Comp/ports of the Bull were significantly leaded!
I tried again with 300 grain bullets @1300 and the slow 1680 powder. Also tried the 255s @ 1100 with Universal clays. I still got leading of the Comp/port.

Will gas checks prevent lead build up in the compensator of a Raging Bull?
Commercial Gas-Checked bullets are VERY expensive. Other than casting my own, where can I find the cheapest Gas-Checked bullets for the 454? I like 300+ grain bullets.
Is there a way to attach a gas check/equivalent to a plain based bullet?
Or, do I just need to shoot JHP ONLY?

Does anybody know of an easy way to clean the ports/comp?

I don't cast my own yet, and the wife says not until we are done having kids... For now, I am restricted to commercially available bullets, or the expensive proposition of acquiring swaging equipment...

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Sponge

[anachronism]

You can buy Cast Performance bullets through many sources, such as Cabelas, Midway & Grafs. There are also many good quality commercial casters out there too. "Cheap", & "quality" don't always go hand in hand with cast bullets, and I'd recommend getting good quality bullets for the velocities you're looking for. Personally, if I were you, I wouldn't even consider shooting cast bullets that aren't gaschecked. Gas checks can only be applied to cast bullets specifically designed to accept them, they're typically installed during the sizing process, so you won't be able to add gaschecks to your existing bullets.
As far as cleaning your muzzle ports, you may be able to find a drill bit the exact size of your ports, and turn it by hand to clean the ports, but you must be very careful when trying this because you could easily cause damage to the barrel. There is probably a free-bored area under the ports, a section of the barrel without rifling, and this needs to be kept clean too. Another possiblity is to thoroughly clean the bore, then go to a secluded area, and fire a few hot jacketed loads through the gun. This may push some of the fouling from the ports, but you have to be very careful doing this, any lead in the ports can become secondary projectiles, and seriously injure bystanders, I've never really approved of this method because of the potential dangers. Also, you must get all jacketed fouling out of the barrel before shooting cast again, or leading will most likey result.

[Willbird]

I must point out that gas checks on pistol boolits are an area of much controversy,I myself do not belive in using them for pistol boolits, maybe because I'm cheap, but who knows, I would rather go to a heavy enough boolit that the operating velocity is within what a plain based bullet will stand.

I do not have a 454c BUT I do know from reading that it's operating pressure requires a very strong boolit, Dick Lee's newest reloading manual would explian to you some of the info you will benefit from.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you generally are not going to be happy with commercial cast boolits with the hard crayon lube, I have yet to find any that were worth paying the shipping on let alone the purchase price........

I'm sure however that there are guys here making exellant plain based and gas checked boolits for the 454c and they ,ight share enough with you that you might want to look into making your own, that is the best way because you have a finger on quality....and if you go with the more economical lead pots and boolit moulds I think you can get into making them for less than you think....of course like any other hobby it takes on a life of it's own and economy typically goes out the window hehe, but you can have fun doing it. I guess you wouldnt be shooting 454c in the firstplace if you didnt like guns.

and on those Glack guys......most of them are kind of weird, they probably wouldnt touch a revolver even let alone shoot one, and they belive a gun that blows up if you use reloads or cast boolits is a great thing and they want even more of them :-)

I may have a G20 someday....but that is more because I like the caliber and would buy most any gun chambered in it (no 10mm yet) I have shot one with a supressor on it and it seemed a decent pistol.

Bill

[lar45]

I have a RB 454 and have been loading WC820 for most of my loads. I'm shooting plain based and gaschecked boolits in the 350gn range. My best accuarcy comes in around 1350. I don't have any leading in the barrel, but there is some residue buildup in the ports. I just scrub with some Ed's Red and a 22 bristle brush.

Do you have a problem with the cylinder comeing unlocked with heavy loads? Mine does. I think I need to send it back.

[beagle]

Speaking from my experiences with a "muzzle tamer" on a TC Contender Super 16 in .45/70, GCs will do nothing to cut down buildup.

With the "bull" I'd grab a RCBS 45-325-FN (about 335 grains ready to launch)and downsize to .452/.453, whatever you're shooting your bullets at, and be happy with a PB design.

I've cast hundreds for my Casull friends and they seem happy with that design and no GCs.

With the velocities you're shooting, you just don't need a GC design./beagle

[spongeman66]

The problem with the Bull is that the last 7/8" of the barrel is actually an expansion chamber that has been cut into the barrel. The barrel itself (with rifling) is about 7.5 inches. Past that, for about 5/8", it opens up to about .7" in diameter. Then for the last 1/4 inch or so, it narrows back down to about .5" or so. There are 4 round 'ports' along each side of the front sight. Lead sprays out these ports, and coats both sides of the front sight. ALSO, inside the expansion chamber area, there is significant build up...

It seems the consensus is a gas check will NOT prevent the lead build up in the chamber area, WHY??? Is there some hot lead spinning off of the bullet as it exits the barrel??? I always thought that cloud of smoke was the lube...

Willbird, Yes, the latest Modern Reloading has a nice section about BHN and the magic 1422 psi/BHN. To realize the full potential of the 454 with those numbers, I need a BHN of about 45!!! What is that? Heat treated linotype??? Seems like it would crumble on impact...
I am really just grasping for a way to afford shooting more and cleaning less...BTW, that is a G20 in my avatar...I wouldn't bother with a revolver unless it was more powerful than my G20! I Considered a Desert Eagle 50AE for a long time, but the Raging Bull at 1/2 the price and 1 1/2 the Kinetic Energy got my attention.

lar45, I also like the pulldown WC820 from GIBRASS.com. 29 grains behind the 300XTP/MAG was max in my gun and produced about 1600FPS.
Do you seem to get less leading if you shoot GC-only? Are those 350s stuff that you cast yourself? PM me with the price of 100 or so if you would be willing to ship some of your GC bullets to TX...

I don't have the problem you mention, but my Bull is headed back to Taurus today. AFTER I spent hours cleaning the ports and getting the 45LC buildup cleaned out of the chambers, I decided to dry fire it a little. It had been acting up some at the range having stiff rotation of the cylinder occasionally. The gun locked up on me! No cylinder rotation, unable to move the trigger or the hammer. I took it to a local gunsmith, and he pulled the grip off. The tranfer bar fell out in 2 pieces!

Maybe I should just trade the bull for a Ruger SRH and forget about the porting... But IMO what an UGLY gun...

Thanks for all of your help!
Sponge

[Buckshot]

..........I only have 2 firearms with porting. One is a Swedish Ag42B and an Egyptian Hakim, in 6.5x55 and 8x57 respectively. Neither have had cast shot from them in any great amount. I'm pretty sure the leading you're seeing is a wash deposited by the hot high pressure/velocity gasses passing the slug as it enters and passes through the relieved area under the ports.

To be sure there is vaporized lead happening with cast boolits. This is one of the reasons indoor ranges must have airflow entrance at the shooting positions and exhaust downrange. Also the reason for the TMJ (totally metal jacketed or electroplated) slugs seen as recommended for indoor shooting.

...............Buckshot

[bobthenailer]

hi i have 2 fa 454 s 0ne with 4 port magnaport & the other with a ssk muzzel break , neither lead up with gc bullets i use a lbt mold a 300 grgc lfn i have shot at least 4000 of these bullets at nothing under 1100 fps and most at 1450 fps up to 1650 fps with no port leading at all however there is some lead build up on the magnaported pistol on the sides of the front sight base as with all magnaported guns when someting is right above the ports , i do get some cloging of my magnaported 22 barrel after shooting the winter indoor pistol league without cleaning which would be around 2000 rounds.

[Willbird]

Well if you ever read John Ross he HATES comps, has them removed, and he has a point that with many pistol ctg. a comp really doesnt do all that much but make more noise.

I know the 454c predates jacketed boolits intended for it, so I assume it can be made to work with naked boolits. and the modern powder ought to be easier on a boolit than the original triplex loads were.

Bill

[mroliver77]

Spongeman,
I dont know your wifes reason for not letting you cast but if it is lead in your system casting can be done without contaminating your bady. Guys on these forums that have casted for years and cast literally tons of bullets have minute traces of lead in their systems. Less than most city dwellers.
If it is price, you can get past that. I was at Willbirds having a cast fest and we used a 2 lb. coffee can on a $10 wally world electric hot plate for an alloy prewarmer. It melted the alloy fast and would work fine for a while. Bill said he has went to a cheapo aluminum saucepan that works great. There we have you in a pot for $10 if you can get a pan for free witch should not be too hard or at least a buck or two at a yard sale. You can pick up a Lee lead dipper for I think $4 and a Lyman for $10.50 prolly cheaper on Ebay. Go with a Lee tumble lube in 2 cavity for $16.50 new or again Ebay mebbe even cheaper. cople bucks for alox or make your own tumble lube and you are shootin your own cast. Of you want to use standard sized bullets a proper mold and a Lee sizer for another $12. We are talking the price of a Box of cast. I just thought I would put the info there for you and maybe that would help get you into casting.
One other thin. As far a gaschecking plain base bullets. I use "checks" made from foam meat trays or cut from anti freeze or oil jugs if a gun/load needs a little help. I back the powder off just a tad and re work up the load. I don't know how it would work with the muzzle tammer though. Jay

[carpetman]

Sponge--What town in TX?(San Angelo here). Ok,your wife wont let you cast until you are done having kids and you need suggestions. First off promise her you will not cast in the nude. Not only that you will even wear an asbestos loin cloth.

[454PB]

I also have a Taurus RB in .454 that has fired thousands of full house homecast gas checked bullets. I think what you are calling leading in the ports is actually bullet lube. If the ports weren't there, you would be seeing a muzzle "star" of bullet lube. The ported area acts like a tube ahead of the muzzle and traps the lube as the spinning cast bullet exits. It's a pain in the patootee to clean, so I don't do much more than a cursory cleaning.

My Rager is in the hospital too, the cylinder began unlatching in recoil. I guess it's a common problem, but mine didn't start doing it until recently. I really like the gun, so hopefully it'll be returning from Florida soon. I've seen mixed opinions of Taurus warranty work. Cost me $54 to UPS it to them, so they better get it right!

I had a Dan Wesson .357 pistol pack years ago. That gun used the same basic system to lock the cylinder, and it had the same problem. You would think an engineer could see that since a big kicker like the Raging Bull goes up and back in recoil, designing the cylinder release latches to push down and forward won't work. Duh!!!!

[spongeman66]

mroliver77, Cost is not much of an issue. I figure I can get set up pretty decent for somewhere less than $150 with Lee equipment and molds. I just dropped that much on a recent order from Midway...With the price of commercial GC rounds, If I cast about 500 rounds with gas checks, I figure the equipment has pretty much paid for itself.

carpetman, I am in DFW. So, I dwell in the city + exposure to even MORE lead not a great idea...Asbestos...Trade lead poisoning for lung cancer...Can you even get that stuff anymore??? Bad stuff if you breathe it, but politically, it is as dangerous as R-12...;)

454PB, For MY gun, I am sure it is Lead build up on the sides of the front site. I have had to scrape it off twice now... If it were lube, it would probably come off with Hoppes or something equivalent...
Are you saying that with GC, you get LUBE and not Lead in your comp?
BTW, When the lady behind the UPS counter said that will be $50.03, I nearly fell over! I am beginning to HATE UPS... At that point, I considered pulling the cylinder out and shipping it in a separate box. Labeling both as 'Machine Parts'...If I EVER have to do this again, I think I will try it. Priority overnight on a 6lb package because they can't police their own employees Stinks.
I never really had the cylinder unlatch. Sounds like my Norinco clone of the TT-33. I have some hot loads for it that every time I pull the trigger, the safety goes on due to the recoil. I can see the recoil causing the cylinder latch to move on the Bull. Seems like the front latch would prevent the cylinder from opening though, but maybe it is activated by recoil too... What in the WORLD have you been shooting in that thing? 400 grain bullets???

My wife has seen her grandfather cast fishing stuff before and remembers the fumes, etc...It will be a nearly impossible sell, if I want to keep relations with her through the process of making kids...And the slightest possibilty of my casting bullets to save a few bucks CAUSING problems with a child has me agreeing with her. I guess I am pretty lucky that I picked a woman who doesn't mind my gun collection or my cost to feed them! I will put up with this request!
My alternative to cast is swaged, and I just can't justify that kind of money when the raw ingredients of lead wire and jackets will cost me about the same as XTPs...

For now, I will limit my 454 to Hornady XTPs and whatever PB projectiles I can get that decrease the leading of my comp. For practice, I may have to switch to Rainiers or one of the coated bullets if the GC stuff doesn't work out.

I will start collecting Wheel Weights for the eventual end of child-making days. I will stay in touch with you guys from time to time to see if there is anything 'new'. I may even get in on one of the Lee group buys if we can ever get one going for a 300+ grain GC 'Keith' style bullet in .452...(Yeah, I know, Keith and GC just don't go together...)

Thanks for your help Everyone!
Sponge