77/22 Hornet..

[NHlever]

OK, I know the reputation these things have for accuracy, but I guess I'm just a sucker for punishment. There has been a used one calling to me for a while now, and no one would help me out by buying it, so today I did the deed. The bore cleaned up nicely, and the gun doesn't look too bad overall. The headspace on the bolt face is about .065, and the bolt halves are tight against each other when the bolt is closed. So far, so good. I took a hundred cases, and expanded them to 25 caliber with my 25WSSM die. ( Yes, I went there too, but didn't stay long) Then I sized them in my Hornet die until the bolt just closed ala Contender practice. That pushed the shoulder noticably ahead, and I'm hoping that I can use that long taper to help center the bullet in the bore along with headspacing off the shoulder. Now I'm wondering if I can use a cast bullet in the fireforming load to just fill out the case a bit. What say you all? I do have J word bullets if the feeling is that they will work better. The cast bullets that I have sized, and lubed are 50 gr, and cast from wheel weights, air cooled, and sized to .225.

[Johnch]

I have one of the beasts

I have found my best accurcy when I seat the bullet into the rifling
Also I ONLY use fire formed brass

I have never tryed cast in mine so

Check your beding
Mine was a plastic type substance the had shrank or something
When I took out that junk and re beded it
Groups shrang a bunch

I was told ( never confirmed it ) that if you do a total glass bedding job , it will shoot better

Also I put a 77/22 preped sear in it , cleaned up the burrs on all the trigger parts and droped the trigger pull a BUNCH

Mine is no sub 1" at 100 yds rifle
But it will now shoot sub 2 " at 100 yds and about 3" at 200 yds

More than good enough for me
As I use it as my walk around rifle
Mainly 100yd or less shots

John

[windrider919]

I have a Kimber 22 Hornet that I bought when they first produced them. It shot and still shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards. Never had to have anything worked over.

The point is is that it just shows what a poor rifle the 77/ 22 Hornet is. And most of them shoot no better. A real shame when a well known and admired manufacturer gets it wrong.

[Dale53]

windrider919;
I had one of the early Kimber .22 Hornets. It shot all over the place. It appeared to be a bedding problem. That put me in a hard place - if I bed it and it still won't shoot, now I have an altered rifle (less value for sale) that won't shoot. I reluctantly sold it. I was also disappointed in the sorry excuse for an extractor (sometimes it extracted and sometimes it didn't - I NEVER tried to overload it, the extractor just didn't get the job done). I have seen the same extractor problems in the .22 versions.

This is NOT a complaint on the later Kimbers. However, I still have little regard for the original Kimber .22s and .22 Hornets. On the other hand, I bought each of my two sons a Kimber .22 Sporter at the time. Their rifles shoot like a house afire. They still have them.

Just goes to show that one example, sadly, sometimes proves little...

Dale53

[Bret4207]

There was an outfit called Connecticut Precision Chambering a few years back that sort of specialized in the 77/22's. Might Google him and see if he's still around. IIRC the barrel/receiver interface needed work.

[NHlever]

I have a Kimber 22 Hornet that I bought when they first produced them. It shot and still shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards. Never had to have anything worked over.

The point is is that it just shows what a poor rifle the 77/ 22 Hornet is. And most of them shoot no better. A real shame when a well known and admired manufacturer gets it wrong.

You are indeed a lucky person if you own a Hornet rifle that shoots that well! My question was about tailoring ammunition to fit the chamber of my rifle. Can you give me specifics about the chamber, and ammunition dimensions of your super accurate rifle? What is the headspace dimension? What ammo are you using? Is the rim thickness of your ammo very consistant, or are you headspacing on the shoulder of the cartridge?

Thanks in advance for contributing in a positive way to this thread.

[windrider919]

It is correct that the Kimbers got a rep for bad extractors but I have not had any problem IF using cases that were the right dimensions to begin with. I had some problems and tracked it down to undersize rim diameter. All my brass is miked for rim size before I ever shot it.

I just described the Kimber as a fine rifle but it is not perfect. The only flaw that I ever wanted to correct is that the chamber size is large. It causes a noticeable bulge above the rim. Since I neck size only the brass is not over worked but it bothers me like a nat buzzing around your head, does no harm but you want it gone. And it complicates the extractor problem. The case expansion is not always concentric, if the case expands offset away from the extractor it can move out from under and not extract.

I was asked for my loads that gave such accuracy. I have to put in this disclamer that these loads are safe in my rifle but I take no responsibility for use by anyone else. Every rifle is different and you should reduce the load and work up to your max pressure.

Case: Winchester (only accurate one found, RP was unusable) Neck size in RCBS dies that were honed in body area to match rifle chamber. The cartridges chamber firmly but not hard, and I keep the case length trimmed

Primer: CCI 400

Bullet: Speer 50gr spitzer. Note: No lighter wt bullet of any mfg shot accurately. And heaver bullets missed the barn when shot inside it.

Powder: Hogden H110, 9 + gr. Note: 9.0 is the max listed but my rifle takes a few tenths more, is not at max pressure and shoots the best groups here

IMR 4227, 8.5 gr


I had considered going to K-Hornet but decide not to mess with a rifle that shoots 1/2 inch all day, hot or cold, rain or shine with the above load.

[johnly]

OK, I know the reputation these things have for accuracy, but I guess I'm just a sucker for punishment. There has been a used one calling to me for a while now, and no one would help me out by buying it, so today I did the deed. The bore cleaned up nicely, and the gun doesn't look too bad overall. The headspace on the bolt face is about .065, and the bolt halves are tight against each other when the bolt is closed. So far, so good. I took a hundred cases, and expanded them to 25 caliber with my 25WSSM die. ( Yes, I went there too, but didn't stay long) Then I sized them in my Hornet die until the bolt just closed ala Contender practice. That pushed the shoulder noticably ahead, and I'm hoping that I can use that long taper to help center the bullet in the bore along with headspacing off the shoulder. Now I'm wondering if I can use a cast bullet in the fireforming load to just fill out the case a bit. What say you all? I do have J word bullets if the feeling is that they will work better. The cast bullets that I have sized, and lubed are 50 gr, and cast from wheel weights, air cooled, and sized to .225.

I've shot cast in my 77/22 Hornet using the Lee Bator mold and Trail boss if you're looking for low velocity or H4227 if you are needing a little more zip. 2400 produced the worst groups.

John

[DLCTEX]

NHLever: I just recieved a 77/22 in 22 hornet and have not benched it to see what it will do, but I did shoot some prarie dogs in a wind gusting to 15-20 mph yesterday. Out to 175 yds it was doing it's part and I'm pretty sure the misses were the fault of my not doping the wind. If it would help, I could send you a fired case. That said, if I were in your place I would continue the way you have started and neck size or partially neck size the cases to reload and not worry about specs. This method of reloading is known for producing the best accuracy. I would not hesitate to use cast boolits for fire forming, but would use the upper end of loading data to ensure the case is formed fully. DALE

[Dale53]

I had considered going to K-Hornet but decide not to mess with a rifle that shoots 1/2 inch all day, hot or cold, rain or shine with the above load.

AMEN TO THAT!!

My sons Kimbers in .22 Rimfire are absolutely the prettiest little .22 Sporters that anyone could ask for. They shoot well, also. I had a friend who was a Kimber Distributor and he called all over the country for me and had HIS distributor friends open a bunch of rifles and describe the wood. He picked the two best (I was there and privy to the conversations). My sons ended up with GORGEOUS wood on their rifles. Fortunately, their rifles eject well, so life is GOOD:mrgreen:.

Dale53

[Dale53]

I did pick up a few things about loading the .22 Hornet that I might share. I had much better accuracy with small pistol primers (thank you, Ross Seyfried) and I also settled on H110 for a powder.

I also had good results in Hornadys .224 - 40 gr "V-Max" bullets. My favorite cast bullet is the Lyman 224415 GC. This bullet over the years has apparently been made in different weights and lengths. If you have the old Hornet twist it may or may not stabilize depending on the bullet. Using 3.0 grs of Unique, a small pistol primer and this bullet I got excellent groups (1/2" at 50 yards) that will do all I need for squirrels. Due to the flat nose, it is MUCH more effective than the .22 rimfire.

Hornet brass has always been a problem. I have it on good authority that Sako makes the best...

Dale53

[NHlever]

I'm getting some really good input here, and I am gathering that despite the problems associated with the Hornet, people that have them like them. I had a partial box of Sierra 50 gr. Blitz bullets so I loaded them with a grain under max load of AA-1680 for sighting in with the new scope, and case forming. I also loaded a few more in increments up to listed max in the Hornady manual. I loaded some in cases that had been full length sized, and some that had cases tailored to my rifle. The bore on mine is .224, and the twist is 1" in 14" so life should be good with 50 grain bullets. I also loaded some cast (Lyman 22596) sized at .225 over three charges of Unique starting with the three grain load recommended above. I know that load shoots well in my brother in laws Contender 22 Hornet.
I have another chemo treatment for the cancer I'm fighting the day after tomorrow, so it may be a while before I can bench these loads. I'll keep you all posted, and thanks again for the input.

[Dale53]

NHlever;
Good luck on the chemo - you'll be in our prayers.

Dale53

[NHlever]

Dale 53, thanks for the support, and prayers. I have a good life, and good sons, and I am pretty optimistic about things.
Well, I got to a range today, and shot the Hornet. I guess I was too excited to finally find a place to shoot after a year without a local range that I introduced too many variables to come to any firm conclusions, but I sure had fun! ( the 45-70 sure is a switch from the Hornet going back, and forth!) I shot J word bullets alternately with the cast boolits, and I know that isn't a good plan. I also used cases with different primers in the cases that had been fully sized, so there was another variable. At any rate, both the fully sized cases, and the ones tailored to the 77/22 chamber shot pretty well. The 100 yard target butt really needs some serious repair, so I shot most loads at 50 yards. My best group with the 50 grain J-word bullets was about .7 with six out of seven rounds in that group going in .400. I found the 77/22 takes a very light touch on the bags, and I could induce a flier by muscling the gun instead of letting the bags work. Most groups ran around .750 -.9 or so at 50 yards. Some were 1"to 1.2, but I fired a big variety of loads, and a lot of rounds, (about 70 out of the Hornet) The cast bullet I was shooting was Lyman 22596, and weighs 49 grains out of my alloy. They were gas checked, and sized .225. Loads were 3.0,3.7, and 4.6 grains of Unique, 7.O of 2400. I was loading the Sierra 50 grain blitz with AA-1680. Loads in cases sized both ways were 11.5 grains, and samples of 11.8, and 12.1 grains were shot in the cases sized to fit the 77/22's chamber. I sure had a great time shooting all the groups! I had my Ruger 77MKII RL .308 there too, and was shooting cast boolits in front of both 2400, and Red Dot out of that. It didn't seem too fussy, but most groups were going over 1" at 50 yds out of that. I used both the Lee 150FN, and the RCBS 180 FN (heat treated WW for the 180) I had shot the 150's earlier with Unique, and that produced slightly smaller groups than the Red Dot, but smoked the cases more.
More tinkering on both is in order!

[clodhopper]

Have been shooting a CZ 527 full stock .22 hornet. H4227 Winchester small rifle primer. Lyman 244438 bullet cast of WW +5% lead free solder. The dies are for K hornet but the chamber is unaltered, so necksized only.
I can get about 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. The groups are generaly 1 inch wide and 1 1/2 inches tall. Have to try the small pistol primers mentioned in a previous post.
On ground squirrels that bullet is tough and often just punched a small hole. Untill the forester hollow point tool came out. With the pistol size bit the nose is converted from RN to concave. Still very little expansion but very good hydralic effect!
The rifle shoots better with jacketed bullets.. but what fun is that?
And a question for hornet fans, Has anybody got good accuracy from Lil Gun powder. The claimed velocity is worthless with the accuracy my rifle gave me with this powder.
I will be thinking of you NHlever. I never had chemo but my wife did ten years ago and I still have her.

[NHlever]

Clodhopper, thanks for the good wishes! I'm pretty positive about the whole thing.
What velocities do you think you are getting with your cast loads? I'm going to try easing past 22 WMR velocities, and see what happens. So far my groups have been mostly rounded is shape, and I feel that is a good sign. It sounds like your groups are pretty consistant in shape, and that is good. I'm using Winchester small rifle primers too, and a friend did say that he thought they were a little "hotter" than some of the others. I've found that sometimes cast boolits don't provide enough resistance in the bore to promote good burning of some powders, and that may be the problem you were having with Lil Gun. I remember an experiment with a 35 Remington once where I just couldn't burn the powder with the soft bullet I was trying to use. I tried tighter necks, more crimp, and everything else I could think of. If I heat treated the boolits, velocities were good, and powder burning was consistant. Paco, and others have seemed to settle on more traditional powers for cast boolit use. He uses a lot of 2400 in his Hornet, and I have always had better luck with milder primers, and that powder. I'll have to try some 4227 too. I looked the other day, but I seem to be out of it.
Great country where you live Clodhopper!

[PatMarlin]

My buddy bought a nice old 77 in 22 Hornet for $200 scoped! I wanted to choke him.. :mrgreen:

Helped him sight it in with 4227 and copper and it was scary accurate.

[clodhopper]

NH,
I was useing jacketed bullets with the Lil gun. I have no chronograph but guess my hornet cast load are very near .22 mag velocities 1800 or so. My reloading data is out in the reloading room but the charge of 4227 is less than a starting load for jacketed bullets. Up near the max load I can't hit beans.

[mainiac]

Ive been shooting this little cuss alot lately. Ive settled on 9grs of h-4227,with a cci500 primer,in win cases, with the 225438 boollit,lubed with felix. This is my most accurate load by far. I worked with lil-gun awhile back, got a 225415 up to 2800 f.p.s., but accuacy was lacking. I keep shooting the hornet because it is so much fun,even though i have MUCH more accurate rifles to play with! The above 225438 load will shoot 10 shot groups at 50 yards under a inch consistent (.800-1.00), and does about 2200 f.p.s.

[Parson]

First let me give you a little background. Among many other things I am a retired custom ammunition manufacturer. A part of my business was working up loads for others who could not get their guns to shoot. I was also a gunsmith so could work on that end of it as well. When the 77/22 hornet came out, believe me I had a lot of business. Ruger should of had a class action suit against them. Now having said that let me say this, I never failed to get one to shoot tolerably, some near perfect. The single most consistant load and method was as follows. Winchester brass fire formed and neck sized to 2/3 the length of the neck. I fire form with no bullet, for the Hornet about 5 grs. Bullseye with muzzel elevated and fire (you can use a small piece of tissue if needed to travel without spilling but is not needed to size only). Small pistol primer non magnum, Nosler 40 gr Ballistic Tip seated to fit magazine, 13 gr Lilgun. While individual guns can be tweeked from here, I could keep this load on the shelf as it worked satisfactorily in everything I ever shot it in. Almost every Ruger benefits from bedding and a trigger job

[9.3X62AL]

Some of the replies here make me think I threw in the towel a little too soon on my now-departed 77/22H. Annoying little critter.......

Best of luck on the chemotherapy, NH!

[Boomer Mikey]

I own 2 22 Hornets, a Ruger 77MKII Target model and a TC Contender 10", both shoot great... 1/2" or less 100yd groups with 50 grain Sierra blitz, Speer 52 grain HP and several other bullets. Neck sized cases, several powders, and small pistol CCI or Federal primers.

I don't run them hard, about 35K - 38K pressure; much more fun than a 22 Magnum.

Boomer :Fire:

[smokemjoe]

I put a shim under the trigger or made a new spring for it and made a better trigger pull, Then I put a shim between the bolt halfs to tighten it up. Its been a few years ago now and got rid of it. It would shoot under 5/8 with cast at 100 yds. but then threw one out to 1.500, Bad looking barrel, I sent back to Ruger , new barrel and was still the same. I got a Savage Model 40 now 3 years ago , tried it a few times and looks good but put it back on the rack and going to try it when I get in the mood. 22415 was the best in both. Joe

[NHlever]

Hi Everyone,
My chemo went very well yesterday, and I'm feeling good today, so I'll be back shooting soon. Good news is that the tumors are still shrinking, and my immune system is still bouncing back well. I'm getting some really good input here, and it looks like I've got a lot more fun things to try! Gotta run up to the local gun shop in a bit since he got in a bunch of .44 gas checks he's selling for $5/thousand! Always good to poke around there anyway. Keep the input coming, since I'm reading even when I don't feel like shooting!

[85gl1200@gmail.com]

Guess I'm lucky. My 77 shoots about 1.5"@ 75 yards. Plenty good for the coyotes around here.
Bill Central Texas

[Marine Sgt 2111]

Well boys let's talk about my nasty little ruger 77/22 hornet. I bought it around 2000 as I had just purchased a farm and didn't want my shooting to disturb the neighbors nor their cattle. So with a box of Remington factory ammo I could not get better than 2.500" groups at 100 yds. So off the my work room, glass bedded the action and tuned the trigger for both pull and smoothness. Still got shotgun sprays at 100 yards with factory ammo.

I then took the two piece bolt apart, made a .005" shim to fit between the front half of the bolt and rear to reduce the horrible slop that came from the factory. There was .01" difference bewteen the O.D. on the male extention end of the rear of the bolt that fits into the rear I.D. of the front half end of the bolt.

The only way to fix that would be to put several lines of fine weld on the rear section, running parallel to the bolt then either turn them or grind them to fit the front female I.D. Now gentlemen, that's just getting into way too much re-engineering of a rifle from a current production.

I did made up a new pin, the one that holds the two halves of the bolt together from an ejector pin of a plastic mold origin as it was tougher and fit better than from the factory. After some 10 hours of fitting I got the bolt to close like a bank vault. Factory ammo groups went down to 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yds.

Then came Lil Gun and Hornady 35 and 40 gr V-Max bullets...14.3 grains to be exact. I used pistol primers. 3300 fps chonographed and .3 to .5 inch groups. Now finally the rifle had my attention. You have to seat the bullet way beyond normal specs but that load smoked woodchucks, opposums and coons like a bolt of red lightening.

Pacnor had a barrel, already turned to the right contour, in .17 cal, so I had them chamber it for .17 ackley hornet and now gentlemen, my .17 hornet shoots .500' groups on it's worest days and on good days, .180" for a three shot group at 100 yds.....now I have a shooting rifle....

[TooManyMisses]

I have a .22 Hornet in an Anschutz that will shoot just about any kind of a j bullet under 45gr with excellent accuracy but my best was the 40 gr Nosler Balistic Tip seated to almost touch the lands (single shot mode wouldn't fit in the mag). I also read Seifreid's article about using pistol primers and found with neck sizing and 13 gr of AA 1680 to be the most accurate but didn't have a Chrony at the time so have no fps data. Have since switched to LiL Gun and 35 gr V max and had too move my scope setting, at 100 yd Vmax hit 3"right and 10" lower than 40 gr Noslers or Remington Factory loads. Thinking about going back to AA 1680 but hard to find in this area. Also use LiL Gun for my .45 Blackhawk so it is more versatile and the 35 grain v max fit in the mag.

Larry

[9.3X62AL]

I still have a set of 22 Hornet dies laying around, and if I get feeling really masochistic I might score one of those CZ-527 variants to whip myself with. I think a hair shirt would be more time-efficient, though.

I have seen fine accuracy from a couple Hornets. Buckshot and I have a pal now in Prescott with a Winchester 54 (or 70, not sure) that just drove tacks. The CZs have a rep for shooting well, too--how much gymnastic preparation for same not being specified. If I roll the bones on another Hornet, I think it will be the CZ.

[BerdanIII]

:oops: I went home and checked the Sinclair catalog and found out that he used a shim from a set of Skip's Seater Die Shims $8.95, p. 55. My apologies.

A friend of mine also had trouble with his Ruger and he traced most of the problem to slop between the halves of the bolt. I believe he found that a Wilson neck die bushing reduced the play. I don't own one of these rifles so I don't know how much machine work was involved, but I do know he was very happy with the results. He's a benchrest shooter and pretty picky.