Ladder Method Experts Needed

[BigBlack]

For those who use the ladder methods tell me you thoughts on this attempt

Setup:
I loaded 10 cartridges increasing powder by .3 grains for each round. Setup a 300yd target and shot the round in order and numbered them as I went. I also chrono’d each shot. I was shooting from a solid bench rest. No pressure signs AT ALL! No hard bolt, not even snug bolt lifts, No flatten primers, and still a very noticeable radius on edge of primer. Chrono set up 9 feet from muzzle. No noticeable wind, a little but not enough to move the ribbon on the 300yd target, maybe wiggle it a little.

Rifle:
.243 Remington 700 ADL 22” Barrel, floated barrel but no other work.

Ammo:
Winchester Brass
CCI BR-2 Primer
H4350 Powder
100gr Sierra Game Kings
Seated .020 off lands

Chrono Numbers
1. 2699.1
2. 2708.8
3. 2744.6
4. 2736.5
5. 2827.9
6. Chrono missed this one
7. 2843.4
8. 2877.9
9. 2896.0
10. 2945.4

Attached is target with most of this info written on it.
8667

[Doc Highwall]

First off you did not state if you had weighed the cases. For this to work I was told by Creighton Audette and in volume III High Power Shooting pg 92, he has a article on this. He used 20 shots with cases checked for wall thickness, head squareness, weight and number of firings. This test is the difference between using a chronograph for using low extreme spreads to determine the best load which does not take barrel vibrations into consideration, and the ladder system that takes barrel vibrations into consideration but not low extreme spreads. You have to marry the two tests together. With the ladder test it will narrow down the velocity range with the components used that the gun likes, and the chronograph is used to keep the extreme spreads as low as possible in that velocity range. Example, the ladder test shows that between 2600 fps to 2675 fps the gun groups the best, now use the chronograph to vary the load in this range to get the best from this lot of components. Also the amount of bullet jump can make a huge impact on accuracy.

[garandsrus]

BigBlack,

The wind where you are shooting from will affect the bullet much more than the wind at 300 yds. You could set up a wind flag 50 yds from the bench and use it to identify a consistent condition.

Your test would suggest that load 7,8, and 9 are in a sweet spot. Try shooting a group with the load for #8 and see what happens.

John

[BigBlack]

From my responses on this and other forums I guess I understood the ladder thing all wrong. I understood it to be this:

1. Load up 10-20 cartridges incrementing the charge up by .3-.4 to your max charge.
2. Shoot at target 200-300 yards away and shoot the charges from low to high watching for signs.
3. Hits should have "walk" up as the charge increase
4. Somewhere there should be a grouping
5. Take the charges for the groupings and work with them using 3-5 round groups at 100.

I thought the ladder would save me some time getting close to the sweet spot, but I guess I am way off. Newbie mistake I guess but was still a learning experiment. Guess I am back to the bench to load up more and back to the range for fun.

[garandsrus]

BigBlack,

Increasing the powder charge does not always raise the point of impact. The reason is that the different velocities are causing the bullets to leave the barrel at various points in it's vibration cycle. When you get near a "node" the muzzle will be somewhat stationary, which is the ideal condition. Many people refer to that as the "sweet spot".

John

[scrapcan]

so from the above discussion the sweet spot from his target is at 8 and 9? I have tried to learn how this method is used and just never got the whole jist as I thouhgt it was a two step process also. 1) find a"sweet spot" 2)find a "sweeter spot" using the chrono.

anyway just curious so I asked the stupid questions so someone else will not have to.

[Doc Highwall]

Looking back on his target I see that shots 6,7,8,9,10 are on a vertical rise. The shots 1,2,3,4 show less vertical, but more horizontal which could be caused by the wind or from the front rest. I would re-shoot 1,2,3,4. The way I learned is get a lot of cases that weigh with in 1-1.5grs spread, Then start with what will be my max charge say 50 grs. reduce this by 10% = 5.0 grs. move the decimal point one place to the left and you get .5 grs or 1%. Now I start at 45 grs. and load 10 rounds with 45.0 grs. 5 rounds with 45.5 grs., 5 rounds more with 46.0 grs. working up in 1% increments to the max charge checking for pressure signs as I go. When I am shooting these I only shoot 5 shots at each target with the load data noted for each one. When I am done I plot each target for both vertical and horizontal spread, and make a chart for powder charge vs. velocity. Some where on the charge vs velocity chart you will see a flat spot where adding 1% of powder the velocity gain is almost nothing, this is where the powder burns the most uniform. I chose a powder charge that is between these and load 80 cases with this charge weight. I always start with the bullet touching the lands and now 20 are touching the lands, 20 are .005 jump, 20 are .010 jump and 20 are .015 jump. This gives me enough rounds to shoot two 10 shot groups with each bullet jump, this is my only variable now the jump to the lands. This has worked for me on many rifles.

[missionary5155]

I have yet to do this system... I still am inclined to load 3 rounds each.. I enjoy the shooting anyway and go with an increase of .5 or 1 grain depending on the cartridge. Then fish about with the best looking area. May have to give this a go one day ::

[4570guy]

I've tried both the ladder system and the optimal charge weight (OCW) approach. I like the OCW much better. I've found I can zero in on good loads more quickly. Both have their merits.

[mike in co]

i think i would try 200 yds. i would get a batch of brass that matched......buy a couple hundred and sort in to tenths, then group in 20 or 50s. try starting with the bullet in the lands. move the chrono out to 12 feet. ( why did the shot get missed ?? kinda ruins the process). shoot three shots at 100,,,noting each shot, from a clean cold bbl. note what the shots do as the bbl warms. this will let you know how many foulers you need to start each session with.

was the bullet/powder combination a reccomended load. i'm unimpressed with the ten shots. 8/9 are good, but as you stated you should be looking for 3/5 series groupings. shots 3/4/5 have strange velocity increases..or lack there of.......i see no reason to expect much at these loads, but would reshoot with matched brass.


sierra reccomends IMR 4350, not H4350 for accuracy. there is a noticable difference in those two powders. accuracy in thier rifle came at 2800.......mid part of your loads and nothing on the paper to talk about.

the ladder process is a tool for precision loading( ammo crafting vs reloading).

it works only when the other parts are in the mix.

mike in co

[mooman76]

Big Black
Yes this is a shortcut system. It would of coarse take longer to shoot a few rounds and go back and load more and shoot more. Before I get farther I might add I have never done this system either but it is logical. I personally would do this at 100 yards. The more veriables you remove the better results you would get. 300 unless you ahve no wind will affect the bullet. One question I did have was did you fire a couple fouling shots first? Your first few shots will change your point of impact because because of your barrel heating up and the fouling will change the pressure. It doesn't matter what you shot so long as you shoot a couple shots first!
After you have deturmined your best load(s) you can move it back to 2 or 300 whatever to see how it does.

[mike in co]

actually 200 yds is the reccommended distance. it puts some spread in the shots. some guns shoot so well , that at 100 its hard to seperate the shots/holes.( but i will admit to doing ladder loads for milsurplus at 100 with 4x scopes....not the same as a modern rifle).

the step in powder charge is case volume dependent...as in aprox 1% ...30 gr case .3, 40 grain .4, 50 gr .5. i find that wiht a gun of known accuraccy shooting a smaller increment will work as in shooting .3 in 40-50 gr cases.


mike in co

[Jim]

I went through the posts thinking "I'm missing something" until I got to Missionary's. I agree the ladder test has it's merits, but if you have no group, the test is for naught.

[shotman]

i was wondering about the powder too if you did useH 4350 that will change things oter thing is use some different powders I see you are shooting a 22in barrel 4350 is a little slow for a 22in you are getting a very large muzzle flash that will start bullet off bad

[1Shirt]

Agree with Jim. If I were going to try this, I would load 3 rds. for each charge weight, so that I could have a comparison of at least 3 shot groups.
1Shirt!

[calkar]

please correct me if Im wrong, but wasnt the ladder method designed by a silhouette shooter who wanted to find an area where a load was least sensitive to slight charge deviations so that he could bulk load with a progressive loader, and have decent consistancy for offhand shooting, to save load time. I do not believe it is a method that was designed to or will ever find benchrest accuracy. The ladder test seems more comprehensible at 200m. than 300m.

[calkar]

I believe weighing brass is impractical compared to the many greater areas of error. It may mattter in a shooting machine that had several thousand dollars worth of fine tuning and a machine rest , but the average persons heart beat and trigger control will blow away any advantage of case weighing.

[Doc Highwall]

The case weighting is to eliminate another variable in the load development. Cases that are heavier will have a smaller internal case capacity with is the equivalent of adding powder and causing variable which is greater with small capacity cases like 223 and smaller vs. larger cases like a 300 rem ultra mag.

[calkar]

This is my ladder test done today with my silhouette hunter class savage 110 in 7mm-08. I started at 100m and that was too close so I backed off to 200m. Im using seirra's 140s, and am looking for a starting point for a ram load. I used seirras load manual, started with the starting load and worked up to max in .5 grain increments. Components are to expensive to waste so this is how I decided to find a starting point. Zone 1 is interesting but kicks my butt at 2850, Zone 2 & 4 are ugly, zone 3 is where I will start 2698, 2711, and 2749 fps.. Zone 5 is nice but a little slow to reach rams out to 500m. So, my new ram load will be between 41 and 42gr. of 4320 (that I bought cheap from a friend) dropped from a lee auto disk, because I like to spend more time shooting than loading.

[jhrosier]

I've tried both the ladder system and the optimal charge weight (OCW) approach. I like the OCW much better. I've found I can zero in on good loads more quickly. Both have their merits.

Where can I get more info on the OCW approach?

Jack

[HollowPoint]

Greetings everyone:

Ever since I started using the OCW method I have cut down on component costs and lessend my time spent at the range trying to dial in my rifles.

http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/

This is the web address of their forum site but, from there you can link to the pages that explain this method in detail.

I just happened to stumble onto that sight one day while looking for load data for my K31. I read the theory behind it, it made sense so I tried it.

On a calm day, I now have a 17 Remington rifle that shoots like a laser. I alway wanted a rifle that would shoot bug-holes.
After I finally got it dialed in I jokingly told my nephew;

"Dude, on a calm day I can shoot the foreskin off a sexually aroused mosquito at two hundred yards with this rifle. If these were incendiary loads, I could cauterize the wound and still leave that mosquito with a fully functional errection."

Of course I'm not that good of a shot but, that little 17 is pretty darn accurate thanks the OCW method.

HollowPoint

[calkar]

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com

[JSH]

I understand the case weighing and it's merits. But I saw no where about any cleaning between #1 and 10. So I would say any case weighing would be moot at this point. Fouling could be bad enough by the tenth shot to cause higher pressure, thus throwing enough variables to cause issues. Or on the other hand it could like to be fouled and start shooting after the tenth shot
On what I call a load ramp I shoot five of each load and shoot for group and over the chrono. I start with a light fouled bore, just cleaned with a bore snake and no solvent. Or if a hunting rig I have it clean. There are a lot of things to play with here. Depends on the use for the load. If it is somthing that I will shoot say 10 rounds at a time and 40 rounds total I take that into consideration as how it performs from the first to the last.
If it is a hunting rig, one shot is prefered, but i take into account at that point a 3-5 shot group from a cold to a hot barrel.
jeff

[7br]

I like the ocw method and think I will need to try it as soon as I can lay my hands some small rifle primers. It looks like Mr. Newberry thought his test out well. I have used the ladder method, but I am not a good enough shot and don't have access to a wind proof range

[Larry Gibson]

please correct me if Im wrong, but wasnt the ladder method designed by a silhouette shooter who wanted to find an area where a load was least sensitive to slight charge deviations so that he could bulk load with a progressive loader, and have decent consistancy for offhand shooting, to save load time. I do not believe it is a method that was designed to or will ever find benchrest accuracy. The ladder test seems more comprehensible at 200m. than 300m.

That is absolutely correct, it was dreamed up by a target shooter who shot at a specified distance. His goal was to see if there was an are of charge spread where the shots from that area of charge spread would all impact in a decent group at one specified distance. It was not ever designed for working up an accurate load unless you only shoot at one distance and throw pretty inconsistent charges varying 1.5 gr or more.

Since I am a "show me" sort of guy I have tried the ladder method (back when it was "the" rage) with several cartridges and rifles at 200 and 300 yards and found it to be of no value to me in finding an accurate load for any of the cartridge rifle combinations. All I managed to accomplish was a waste of componants.

Larry Gibson

[calkar]

I would bet that he was awake when he did it, silhouette shooters shoot at more than a single distance, and anyone would have to be drinking quite a bit at the bench to throw charges that would vary 1.5gr or More. What an exaggeration!, Remember there can be inexperienced people reading this and relying on us for decent information.

[felix]

Actually, a 1.5 grain spread is a good way to test a load for consistency across tempatures, as in doing a simulation of what would happen at a single test temperature. That would be a final random test of exactly x-0.75, x, and x+0.75. I do this quite often to test always being above the optimum break in the pressure curve. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Additional problem with the "ladder method" is it does not consider or take into account cone of fire. If you're testing a 1 moa rifle at 200 yards then it's accuracy is capability is 2". Given that the "ladder" is supposed to climb with succeeding shots until there is a cluster consider the what the not considering the cone of fire can potentially do, example; if one shot with one powder charge is the 6 oclock hit in a group and the next shot with the next powder charge is the 12 o'clock hit then you have a potential spread simply based on group dispersion. Now if the next two shots of the next two powder charges happen to both be the 6 o'clock hits of their group then what might appear as a cluster is nothing more than shot dispersion with in a cone of fire. That could indeed be very misleading considering we could actually have a minimum of an additional 2 moa above the cluster and 2 moa below the cluster (in addition the vertical distance between the shots themselves) where additonal shots from those different powder charged loads could actually go. Thus instead of actuallually developing a 2 moa load the old way we could very well end up with a 4+ moa load using the "ladder" method of load development.

Larry Gibson

[mike in co]

well i'll admit , i am a confirmed ladder shooter. and i'll stir the pot more and tell you ocw is a crock of dung. it is something proposed simply to boost the ego of its owner. i looked at it, i read it, i reread it.....pure bs.... its been a while , but i seen to remember it being the equivilent of shooting a ladder three times , on multiple targets......in a weird rotation.

ladder only narrows a window,,,you still have work to do......you still have to tune a load to a gun, but it gives you a narrow starting point for your tune......it may give you several spots. the ladder is just one step in tunning a load for your rifle.

in a 10 shot string, you should circle shots 1 2; 234; 345;456;567;678;789;8910;910.
look at the velocity changes and shapes of these groups.

you need to know what the wind was doing when you were shooting. head and tail winds cause vertical, crosswinds cause horizontal.

decide what looks good, shoot the good ones over in 5 shot strings, and then do some oal tuning.

on the benchrest central "benchrest" forum....ocw was told to go away and quit wasting thier time and bandwidth.

i only use the ladder with jacketed bullets, with cast boolits i'm looking for "acceptable" accuracy in a velocity range.....just me.

mike in co

[mike in co]

I believe weighing brass is impractical compared to the many greater areas of error. It may mattter in a shooting machine that had several thousand dollars worth of fine tuning and a machine rest , but the average persons heart beat and trigger control will blow away any advantage of case weighing.



believe what you will. since this thread was dead for 10 months ...sounds like someone building thier post count.

you mentioned benchrest accuracy....in br there are suppliers which sell weight sorted brass. there are others that skip it...but they are all shooting lapua brass... 220 russian in 6ppc or 30br on 6br brass. this brass is so consistant that it puts winchester/remington/ppv/sb/mil surplus brass to shame.
and yes you can see the diff in bench shooting ......but only if one has a quality rifle and is an ammo crafter, not a reloader.

mike in co

[Larry Gibson]

The problem is many assume the "ladder" test, OCW someone's "favorite" load are simple shortcuts to the best accuracy. They are not. One and/or three shot groups are not a large enough samples to determine accuracy. We have been through all that before. If those "assuming" individuals would carefully read the fine print of the original explanations for any of these methods they would find there is always more "tweaking" of the laod required. Why not just work up the load to begin with and then confirm it's accuracy with 1 ten shot group or 3 five shot groups at a minimum. Doing that you will know for sure the accuracy capability of that load in your rifle with you shooting it.

I have had many shooters over the years show me a "wallet" group which is usually a cloverleaf 3 shot group of sub moa. They then sit down at a bench and can't shoot a sub 1 1/2 to 2 moa group with the same load and the same rifle. All sorts of excuses about too much coffee ad nauseum. The fact is the "wallet" group was merely a product of "random dispersion.

Random dispersion works like this; take any 5 shot group of 1 1/2 moa and ods are you can circle 3 shots that will be sub moa, maybe two such sub moa groups. With a 10 shot 2 moa group you can circle numerous sub moa 3 shot groups within that 2 moa. If any of those 3 shot groups happen to be the 3 shots you picked and fired and then assumed the accuracy of the load and rifle was sub moa you would be wrong.

As to the use of one shot groups like the "ladder" test; if you shoot a five shot group of 2 moa you have five 1 shot sub moa groups. Who is fooling who?

Larry Gibson

[BruceB]

Larry;

You've just described my rationale for using the ten-shot group in most of my load testing....but you described it far better than I ever could. I have little faith in the three- or five-shot group as an indicator of relative accuracy performance.

One exception I can recall in my personal loading happened in 2005, when I was doing initial loading with the Barnes 225-grain TSX in my Savage .338. Due mostly to the cost, about 75 cents per bullet, I loaded three rounds with each of 71.0, 72.0, and 73.0 grains of Re-19. Each of the three groups went under .75", and two of the three were under 1/2" from 100 yards. When I superimposed the groups, I found all nine bullets had formed a group of 0.70". That was good enough for me, and I quit load development right there.

Cast bullets are far less-expensive than the TSX, of course, and I find the added certainty of the 10-round group over any smaller number of rounds to be very valuable indeed. I note that I did fire a few five-rounders in my long-running M1A thread, but there I was mostly looking at functioning issues. Most of the M1A shooting involved ten-round groups.

[Larry Gibson]

BruceB

Yes it's hard to argue with a 10 shot group as indicator of accuracy from a rifle. I'm pleased you agree, too bad many more do not. Many argue that with light weight sporters, single shot rifles or rifles with limited magazine capacity that 3 shot groups are "adequate". I disagree simple because I have seen the reality of actual accuracy embarass many a 3 shot group. I fail to see any difference that magazine capacity or a rifle being a single shot has to do with accuracy capability. With any rifle, particularly light weight sporters or single shots, if you let the barrel cool sufficiently between shots then a 10 shot group is a far better indicator of actual accuracy of the rifle/load/shooter than a 3 shot group is.

For hunting purposes though a series of five 3 shot groups starting with a cold barrel for each of the five groups and allowing only enough time to reload and fire between shots during each group is a good measure of what I call "practical hunting accuracy". Of course I use the largest group as the measure of probable hunting accuracy not the "average" of the five groups. One never knows when the shots of that largest group are in the chamber and Murphy most often has it as when that trophy buck is out there at some distance. Best to really know what the true "worst case" capabilities of your rifle and load are, not the best case when that happens. You can make a much better ethical decision to shoot or not to shoot that way.

BTW; I often refer M1A shooters to your thread as it demonstrated what can be done. It was a well done test.

[waksupi]

If you ain't shooting ten shot groups, you're not testing anything. Just hoping to get lucky.

[calkar]

why in the world would I care about post count? I have become interested in the high power silhouette game and am trying to get a start on load developement without breakin the bank. I must have missed the post competition thing, How do I enter?

[ChuckS1]

Didn't you know the higher the post count, the wiser the person is?

[Larry Gibson]

Perhaps the higher post count simply means he's been around a while and is willing to share his knowledge and experience with others. Actually, a high or low post count really doesn't mean much of anything. It is the content of the post that contains any meaning.

Larry Gibson

[calkar]

Well, once again I missed something, seems I should have been posting instead of at the range shooting. I wonder if I could teach myself to mold bullets and type with my toes at the same time, hmmm!

[mike in co]

larry and bruce,
( its too complicated for chucks1 and calkar)

the intent of a 10 shot ladder is only to close in on the powder load, it is not the end of the search. we all know bbls vibrate and with full power loads "most" powders/cartridges shoot well close to a full case in a pressure band where the powder burns efficiently.( not talking cast, but bullets).

its looking for a trend. where does this powder/this bullet, in this rifle like to be ?

benchrest shooters say there are three some times four "nodes" where a gun will shoot well,
typically the hottest is the best, but not stable. some guys shoot at lower nodes and accept it is not as good as the hot load, but also more stable.
in my milsurplus rifles i'm quite happy with a lower node that shoots moa,instead of pounding my self with a hot load that shoots 3/4 moa.
a ladder will help find this quickly...stuff not shown in reloading manuals.

the ladder is just a tool......it wont make anyone a better shooter.

mike in co

[scrapcan]

nice continuation of the discussion going on in this thread. Keep it up it will help me to learn more and to makeup my own mind. That is why many come here, the differring methodology is presented and I get to do due diligence in my decision making.

Carry on.

[calkar]

go weigh yourself Mikey!!

[jsizemore]

If I remember correctly, Creighton Audette suggested the ladder method with a high power match rifle chambered in 300 Win Mag. The powder weight increments were .2 grain, I assume this was the accuracy of the powder measure he was going to use to load Match Rifle. There were some other assumptions, such as they were shooting an accurized rifle with a heavy barrel and the guy pulling the trigger was an accomplished shooter with mucho experience doping the conditions. The prevailing thought at the time said that high BC boattail match bullets didn't go "to sleep" until they passed 200 yards and wouldn't group well at less then that range.
The idea was that as you fired your ever increasing powder charges some would go into the same group and that would indicate that the since they went into the same group they must be at the same velocity. At that time nobody knew or talked about barrel vibration nodes. So, by studying accuracy results, their conclusion was that with the right powder as you increased charges in small increaments you could find a few spots in the velocity curve where the velocity leveled out or decreased slightly and you wanted to test groups from those spots. The rifles shot a match course and were of the highest quality. No cleaning between shots. Heavy barrels with a lapped and tapered bore. All brass and bullets from the same lot weight sorted to eliminate the extemes.
The originator of this thread was shooting a 700 ADL with a sporter weight barrel with no mods and admited little bench ability with bigger powder weight increments in a smaller then a 300 Win Mag case. He would have been better served to shoot over a chronograph.
I hope this will help with this thread/pissing contest

[calkar]

Thanks Jmore! Thank you very much for the research info. The ladder test that I did on my savage 110 silouette rifle gave a decent start on load development. Of course it all needs fine tuning, whether it is a ladder test x1 or x3. My first ladder test gave me a 1 moa load that works well with the lee double disk. Now I will play seating depth.

[mike in co]

If I remember correctly, Creighton Audette suggested the ladder method with a high power match rifle chambered in 300 Win Mag. The powder weight increments were .2 grain, I assume this was the accuracy of the powder measure he was going to use to load Match Rifle. There were some other assumptions, such as they were shooting an accurized rifle with a heavy barrel and the guy pulling the trigger was an accomplished shooter with mucho experience doping the conditions. The prevailing thought at the time said that high BC boattail match bullets didn't go "to sleep" until they passed 200 yards and wouldn't group well at less then that range.
The idea was that as you fired your ever increasing powder charges some would go into the same group and that would indicate that the since they went into the same group they must be at the same velocity. At that time nobody knew or talked about barrel vibration nodes. So, by studying accuracy results, their conclusion was that with the right powder as you increased charges in small increaments you could find a few spots in the velocity curve where the velocity leveled out or decreased slightly and you wanted to test groups from those spots. The rifles shot a match course and were of the highest quality. No cleaning between shots. Heavy barrels with a lapped and tapered bore. All brass and bullets from the same lot weight sorted to eliminate the extemes.
The originator of this thread was shooting a 700 ADL with a sporter weight barrel with no mods and admited little bench ability with bigger powder weight increments in a smaller then a 300 Win Mag case. He would have been better served to shoot over a chronograph.
I hope this will help with this thread/pissing contest


well i think( my opinion) you have remembered wrong. a 300 win mag case would have a 90 plus grain case capacity and the std for ladder is 1/100, or in this case 0.9 increments...in real life probably 0.5 ......2 tenths in a large case is next to unnoticable. maybe used when down to the last part of load developemnt, but not in a ladder. remember your just looking for a window, not THE perfect load at this point.
and yes a chronograph is REQUIRED in a ladder.
mike in co

[jsizemore]

Sorry Mike in CO. I did remember correctly. I went looking for the article and it is on page 90-94 of the 'Precision Shooting Reloading Guide'.
The assumption on my part was that Mr. Audette choose .2grs because it was the accuracy of his powder measure. I admit I don't know because I wasn't there and couldn't/didn't ask him. It's the only logical reason I could come up with having loaded with Homer Culver converted Lyman 55 powder measures. The only other measure I remember from the time with a higher (?) degree of accuracy was made by Neal Jones. Most of the BR shooters grabbed those up and the waiting list was long. Those things cost about $250-300 back then and most Highpower shooters didn't have them. Anyway, that part was an assuption on my part and I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. Part of what happens when I open my pie hole about stuff I KNOW nothing about.
I also ASSUME that he came up with the ladder test to cut down on the number of rounds down the tube. It's easy to assume (there's that word again, ******) that a bullet powder combo will work, but I always wonder what if.
I could have stuck with conventional wisdom and used published load data for my 1st generation Sendero 25-06. 24" barrel, Brown Precision stock. But I used the ladder method to find a load with Vhita Vhouri Oy VVN-165 and a Sierra 75gr HP. I killed groundhogs all day from 50-500 yards. Didn't matter if the temp was 60 or 110 or it was shot 1 or shot 20. Slight variations in pressure in such a high intensity case had little effect on accuracy when I was in the middle of the sweet spot that the ladder method showed. Gun still shoots great with that load.

[calkar]

A chrono would be an accessory not a necessity!

[jsizemore]

The chrono sure helps.