Alloy hardness change

[karlrudin]

Since I started casting a couple of years ago, I have been using WW's as my primary alloy. I would melt the alloy, pour into mold and then water drop. My current CHEAP source has dried up and I have been forced to start buying Lyman #2 from a retailer.

My question is this, since it has been implied to me that its the arsenic in WW that causes the hardness of the alloy when water dropped or heat treated in an oven, and Lyman #2 does not contain arsenic, is there any reason I should continue water dropping my bullets.

Thanks in advance.

[rdwarrior]

Since I started casting a couple of years ago, I have been using WW's as my primary alloy. I would melt the alloy, pour into mold and then water drop. My current CHEAP source has dried up and I have been forced to start buying Lyman #2 from a retailer.

My question is this, since it has been implied to me that its the arsenic in WW that causes the hardness of the alloy when water dropped or heat treated in an oven, and Lyman #2 does not contain arsenic, is there any reason I should continue water dropping my bullets.

Thanks in advance.

The arsenic may do some hardening - but I believe it is the antimony that really makes the difference in the hardness. Antimony is what lets the water quenching work so well. Unless I am wrong - I dont water quench - water quenching will harden Lyman #2.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

While this article is primarily about "Heat treating" after casting...the principles apply to water dropping.
I think you will find some good info in it.
http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

[Aodmelter]

I am also a newbie on here but I am running tests right now on hardness changes of how hardness is gained on lead. I was melting bullets , water quenching and got a hardness of 12.5 then I tested it again after 4 days and now have 14.3 so I suspect that whatever hardness you are getting after water quenching it possible to get even more as they age like I said I’m a newbie also my plan is to water quench every thing except muzzleloader As far as I know I don’t have any arsenic in my lead mine is a mixture of pure lead and foundry

[karlrudin]

So if I'm reading this right, http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm, the arsenic is only there to speed up the hardening process but doesn't have to be there for the bullets to "age" harden? The antimony does the hardening and the arsenic just speeds it up.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

It's not necessarily an increase in "speed" of age hardening.
It's an improvement in strength...FYI, strength and hardness are two different things.

Also, the amount of resulting hardness a boolit achieves is effected by the Temp of the boolit right before it's quenched and the temperature of the water/coolant. Different temps of either, will yield different hardness. Arsenic makes that happen easier...so a alloy with a bit of arsenic in it will typically be harder after the same Heat treatment given to a alloy without a little arsenic. BUT, I suspect if you heat treat boolit A (one that has a bit of Arsenic) at the Max Hot temp (before slump) and with water/coolant at Max cold temp, I imagine the end result hardness will be about the same as one that doesn't have that bit of Arsenic.

Here is another good read
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m

Lastly, if you are curious about how fast a boolit hardens when you follow the typical instructions for Heat treatment, I documented my findings in this thread 4 years ago, it was my first attempt at Heat Treating.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?248671-Heat-treat&highlight=

[karlrudin]

Well I thank y'all for your help. I was trying to do my homework before working with Lyman #2. I've been using WW +2% Tin and water quenching with great results on paper. I'm hoping this new to me alloy will do the same. Strength/hardness is not really a necessity to me except for bullet performance because I'm shooting paper. But I would like to have the same or better performance.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Strength and hardness can become important when you start "pushing" the boolits faster than published data, Slump, skidding, stripping of the boolit can happen, which can effect stability.

But in regards to water dropped COWW+tin or water dropped Lyman #2, those should be interchangeable in most cast boolit applications of published data.

[Rcmaveric]

Arsenic is not the only grain boundary refiner.

http://www.lasc.us/WiljenArsenic.htm

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[karlrudin]

I've been accused of "under" pushing my bullets by fellow shooters lol. I went to a couple of organized cast shoots and they were wondering what I was doing, etc., to have my groups. After the casual Q&A, I ended up telling them my velocity of only 1400fps in a 7-08 Rem. Their jaws hit the floor. But that was the velocity my rifle liked and who am I to argue with little groups lol

[Rcmaveric]

Its all about the groups size. Velocity doesnt mean much if you cant hit what your aiming at. I bet you can find another accuracy node though a little higher up in velocity. I think pressure is more of limiting factor than velocity.

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[karlrudin]

Its all about the groups size. Velocity doesnt mean much if you cant hit what your aiming at. I bet you can find another accuracy node though a little higher up in velocity. I think pressure is more of limiting factor than velocity.

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If its winter time, I can find another sweet spot about 2 grains of powder up from my summer load. But I started at the bottom of the load data and went just shy of max and NOTHING in there worked over several powders. In my guns defense lol when I order the barrel, I had planned on shooting heavy long jackets and it has a tighter than factory twist. Little did I know I would be shooting cast and replacing a perfectly good Shilen barrel is not in my payroll lol

[Rcmaveric]

I had the same problems when I was seating bullets into the lands. Tried every powder listed in the manuals and then some and couldnt get over 1600 fps in .270 Win. I liked the accuracy, but i didnt like the bullet drop at 200 yards. I wanted around 1800 fps. Every article i read said to seat into the lands for max accurracy. Parruzing the articles of Google and else where online I found a gem of an article that advised against it due to major pressure spikes. From reading Mr. Lee's i know pressures are important for cast bullets. So I remeasured my seating depths, and took .002 off of that and redid my test. Just enough to give the bullet a bit of a jump. Now my current loading now has groups that are tighter and velocities in 2000fps range. Played around with a friends quickload and it was an eye opener when it comes to pressures and seating depths.

Dont waste a good barrel. Where this is a will there is a way.

[karlrudin]

I had the same problems when I was seating bullets into the lands. Tried every powder listed in the manuals and then some and couldnt get over 1600 fps in .270 Win. I liked the accuracy, but i didnt like the bullet drop at 200 yards. I wanted around 1800 fps. Every article i read said to seat into the lands for max accurracy. Parruzing the articles of Google and else where online I found a gem of an article that advised against it due to major pressure spikes. From reading Mr. Lee's i know pressures are important for cast bullets. So I remeasured my seating depths, and took .002 off of that and redid my test. Just enough to give the bullet a bit of a jump. Now my current loading now has groups that are tighter and velocities in 2000fps range. Played around with a friends quickload and it was an eye opener when it comes to pressures and seating depths.

Dont waste a good barrel. Where this is a will there is a way.

I'm quite happy with my accuracy and my velocity. I know somewhere in here I said I only shoot paper nowadays. So speed or impact energy is not important. I'm just hoping that changing from WW to Lyman #2 gives me as good of accuracy. I was trying to trim a 1/4" off my groups as of last shooting season, and found a way to do it and closed up the gap. The last match I went to I scored a 49 and a 47-x. I'm not complaining at that. Those groups give me an average of 3/4" at 100 yards consistently if I do my part.

[Rcmaveric]

Thats all that matters.

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[earlmck]

You'll know after a trip to the range whether the Lyman #2 works for you (I would bet it will) . But if it doesn't, I have bought wonderful wheelweight based ingots from several different folks who advertise on here when they have a new batch to sell. So you could buy good old ww material and go back to the stuff that worked for you before if you so desire.