Where Did All Of The .58s And .54s Go?

[Landy88]

The .50 has always been the sales leader, but it's big sisters were always in the market. Now, it seems it's almost, to paraphrase Henry Ford, "...available in any caliber you want as long as it is .50."

[waksupi]

.54 is the most popular in this area. .50 is fairly rare. I just finished a .53 Poor Boy a couple days ago.

[nicholst55]

IMHO the inlines pretty much killed anything other than .50, at least for the mass market. When you go to most places that carry 'muzzleloader' stuff, it's strictly for .50 inlines. You ask about flints and round balls, and they get that deer in the headlights look.

[Tracy]

IMHO the inlines pretty much killed anything other than .50, at least for the mass market. When you go to most places that carry 'muzzleloader' stuff, it's strictly for .50 inlines. You ask about flints and round balls, and they get that deer in the headlights look.

Yep. And if you ask for black powder they say, "What kind do you want? 777, Pyrodex Pellets, White Hots...?"

[Good Cheer]

Manufacturers have gone middle of the road as the marketplace generally has a mania, a fixation on deer.

[rfd]

this is all about offshore production trad ml's, as onshore builders will render whatever ya want. investarms (lyman, dgw, cabela. etc) does offer a .54 but for whatever reason they're hard to find. dunno about traditions and other euro manufacturers, but i think pedersoli does a .54 and a .58 (with much higher price tags than the others). i couldn't find a .54 GPR last year, so i bought a .50 and sent the barrel off to bobby hoyt for a .54 ream. this allowed me to better tailor what i really wanted - .012 radius groove rifling in 1:56 twist. replacing the lock with an L&R RPL05 was another mod for the better.

216863

216864

[dsayer]

Have to admit I've never looked much at 58s, but I shoot 54s exclusively. I have three Investarms rifles; a Cabela's Sporterized that my dad gave me on my 12th birthday, another Cabela's rifle I bought when I was in undergrad ~15y ago, and Lyman Plains Pistol. My next one will be a flintlock.
They are harder to find than their 50cal cousins but Track of the Wolf and other online retailers usually have some available.

[trapper9260]

I see that there is more inline then side locks and some of the new side lock have the twist of sabots then for able to use round ball to do the job you like.But I did found a side lock to shoot round ball.The other 2 side locks I have have the twist I found out that is for sabots.All are 50 cals. I do have a civil war 58cal that shoots good just need to shot it more to get the hang of it.

[Nobade]

this is all about offshore production trad ml's, as onshore builders will render whatever ya want. investarms (lyman, dgw, cabela. etc) does offer a .54 but for whatever reason they're hard to find. dunno about traditions and other euro manufacturers, but i think pedersoli does a .54 and a .58 (with much higher price tags than the others). i couldn't find a .54 GPR last year, so i bought a .50 and sent the barrel off to bobby hoyt for a .54 ream. this allowed me to better tailor what i really wanted - .012 radius groove rifling in 1:56 twist. replacing the lock with an L&R RPL05 was another mod for the better.

216863

216864Nice! That's certainly an improvement. Same thing I did with a TC.

[Landy88]

Good to be reminded that there are some options if one wants (or is forced) to move up a level or two to a custom or semi-custom ML.

I'm not there, yet; but I do want a dedicated elk ML. I think that a little bore diameter would for that be a good idea, and the general market has very limited options.

[mooman76]

They are out there, you just have to look. Less common but they are there. I have a Cabelas Hawken 58 and a T/C Scout in 54.

[mooman76]

They are out there, you just have to look. Cabelas has them, Dixie Gun Works has them, Cains Outdoors....... And they are ready made or kits, not customs.

[Tackleberry41]

Its one of those self fulfilling things. A store carries tons of 50 but little else, so thats what people buy. Since the 45 or 54 cal stuff does not move, they stock less of it. Which means there is less to buy and soon they say, 'nobody wants the other stuff'. And all the inlines guns I see are 50s, and all places carry anymore. Shop near me wont touch a side lock, just cant sell them. Its a much smaller niche market. Took me a year to sell a really nice Lyman 54cal. Still have the great plains mold I bought for it, just in case I ever got another one.

[Texas by God]

Earlier this year I got a T/C
" hawkengade" in .54 to go with my Lyman PP .54. I'd looked for a few years......

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Landy88]

Thanks for the encouragement.

I'll keep looking.

[Beagle333]

Cabelas has Hawkens in .54 in stock.
https://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=1608685&type=product&WT.z_btnclk=YMAL-1608685&WT.z_pg_ref=prd727320

[GoexBlackhorn]

Where Did All Of The .58s And .54s Go?

...... and where have all the 50-cal 1/66 twist, half-stock roundball rifles gone?

Since inlines are so market-hot these days, I would even purchase an Inline 1/66 twist...... if someone made one.

I would love to shoot roundballs and patch, out of a gun with a half-stock with removable breechplug and fiber-optic sights.

[rfd]

...... and where have all the 50-cal 1/66 twist, half-stock roundball rifles gone?

they got reamed out to .54 [smilie=p:

[mooman76]

...... and where have all the 50-cal 1/66 twist, half-stock roundball rifles gone?

Since inlines are so market-hot these days, I would even purchase an Inline 1/66 twist...... if someone made one.

I would love to shoot roundballs and patch, out of a gun with a half-stock with removable breechplug and fiber-optic sights.

Why removable breech plug? I'm not saying they aren't out there but I don't think they were ever made. I'm talking about the ones like inlines that were made to be removed when cleaning. Take care of it and clean it properly and you should never have to remove it, with few exceptions of coarse.

[Landy88]

I think that I even drooled a bit, then I saw the "LH."

A nice LH .54 and 12ga TC New Englander is on GB, if anyone shoots from that shoulder.

[OverMax]

For those looking for a 54. Quite often through-out the year this business comes into possession of near new T/C Hawken & Renegade model and post their pictures on-site for re-sale. I seldom see this business place re-sell used Lymans as they are a authorized dealer for Lyman firearms and I highly doubt there's a need too. i.e. >Pretty popular gun Lyman's are in this State.

Traditions & Cabela's models {not being rude} never.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Index.aspx

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

cabelas models are the same as lyman. Both are made by investarms.

[starmac]

OverMax, do you know of any differences between a rifle stamped lyman and one stamped cabellas. I do not know of any, but there may be.

I have a left hand cabellas I bought back in the 90's, basically it was what I could find in LH at the time is the reason I went with it. I have been pleased with it and as far as I am concerned it's quality is on par with any of the mass produced guns.

[mooman76]

Lyman and Cabelas made by some companies. Might be some minor differences but basically the same. I also have a Cabelas 50/58 Hawken rifle. I don't know how old it is but I bought it 25 years ago, new when I was in AK so I could hunt moose with it. Never given me a minutes trouble and shoots very well.

[OverMax]

[QUOTE OverMax, do you know of any differences between a rifle stamped lyman and one stamped cabellas.QUOTE] Sorry I surely don't.
All those I've bought-en in the past were T/C traditional models. But~
Just guessing?: I've always thought Cabela's and Traditions are one in the same where as Lymans were CVA products. But FrontierMuzzleloadin says differently. So I'm likely wrong in my guessing.

[BPJONES]

I've always thought Cabela's and Traditions are one in the same where as Lymans were CVA products. But FrontierMuzzleloadin says differently. So I'm likely wrong in my guessing.[/QUOTE]

You are wrong--like I'm sure we all have been more than once!

[RogerDat]

Zouave .58 isn't a flinter but has the bore, handles Minnie ball and round ball. Generally good accuracy without a huge price tag. Between $200 and $300 is common for a used decent reproduction.

[mooman76]

[QUOTE OverMax, do you know of any differences between a rifle stamped lyman and one stamped cabellas.QUOTE] Sorry I surely don't.
All those I've bought-en in the past were T/C traditional models. But~
Just guessing?: I've always thought Cabela's and Traditions are one in the same where as Lymans were CVA products. But FrontierMuzzleloadin says differently. So I'm likely wrong in my guessing.

The Cabelas and Lymans are made by the same company. Their stamp is a "[I]" inside a box. I believe if I remember right, Investarms. Traditions and CVA as well as many other companies were made by the same company by CVA dropped it's line of sidelocks as well as the other companies so now it's just Traditions, all made in Spain.

[pietro]

.

Bottom line: the almighty dollar rules (and drives everything).

Big Box stores (WalMart, Cabela's, Dick's, Costco, etc, etc, etc) will always stock their inventory with whatever sells the most/fastest (stale inventory is an abomination to their bean-counters) - and younger shooters for the most part seem to gravitate toward, plastic stocks (in everything) and inline frontstuffers, so those buyers are catered to.

Minority buyers, like .54/.58 (to say nothing of the larger .62's, smaller .32/.36/.40/etc) gun shooters, can be kicked to the curb, in terms of high & fast profits.

In a way, I like it, as the sidelock guns I prefer can usually found for less $$$ than a comparable plastic/fantastic inline, and a muzzleloader shooter isn't limited to off-the-shelf round balls.



.

[Wayne Smith]

cabelas models are the same as lyman. Both are made by investarms.

Hate to rain on your parade, but the link to Cabala's is for a Pedersoli, not investarms.

[mooman76]

I think they may have recently switched to Pedersoli but for allot of years they were Investarms.

[sharps4590]

Goodness...after reading this thread I'm glad all my 45's and 54's are safely ensconced in my gun safe! Haven't been in the market for a good ML for a while so I'm pretty ignorant of what's out there. Semi-custom and custom are always available but boy, they can get pricey.

Oh..what about Matt Avance and TVA? They're semi-custom but last I looked were reasonably affordable. Not so anymore?

[rfd]

tradition guns are made in spain, investarms (lyman, DGW, cabela, etc) are made in italy.

there are special models made for DGW, i've had a few. might be the same for cabelas. this is also true of pedersoli bpcr rollers and sharps, where DGW has offered special models not found on the pedersoli website.

all of the above are offshore production guns and it's rare to get a custom from them. however, all the onshore manufacturers and gunsmith builders will build to your spex.

[GoexBlackhorn]

Why removable breech plug? I'm not saying they aren't out there but I don't think they were ever made. I'm talking about the ones like inlines that were made to be removed when cleaning. Take care of it and clean it properly and you should never have to remove it, with few exceptions of coarse.

I was talking inline ML..... which all have removable plugs.

[mooman76]

I'm not saying they didn't make one but never heard of an inline with a RB slow twist. Most are 1-28. Some were a little slower but few of those were made.

[Squeeze]

the big bores I think are more of a roundball thing. For me, I just drifted away from roundball, and migrated to fast twists and big conicals. I may have a .54 or two left of my big bores, but I like something in a .40-.45 fast twist now.

[rodwha]

the big bores I think are more of a roundball thing. For me, I just drifted away from roundball, and migrated to fast twists and big conicals. I may have a .54 or two left of my big bores, but I like something in a .40-.45 fast twist now.

I’d like to know a little more about your fast twist <.45 cal rifles, loads, and results as I’ve often contemplated something like a .375-.40 for field hunting medium game hoping to achieve a projectile that can keep a point blank trajectory close to 4” out to 200 yds from a sidelock. This seems achievable with a .45 cal and a saboted Hornady 200 grn SST in .40 cal. The idea of a full bore lead bullet holds my fancy more though.

[Cheeto303]

Last year I picked up a Johnathan Browning Mountain rifle and a T/C White Mountain Carbine both .54's both in excellent condition. I payed $225 for the Browning and $100.00 for the T/C. I love .54's and got a doe each last season.T/C,Cva,Jukar,Dikar and Tradition's percussion rifles are a dime a dozen here in Tn. CVA's & Traditions can be had for $75-$100,Jukars/Dikars $50.00 or less,and T/C's $100-$150.What I really need is a T/C Big Boar .58. About 5 yrs ago I scored a .32 CVA Squirrel rifle for $75, . I also picked up a pair of never fired Traditions flinters, a .36 & .50 for $250.00.My Coup de grace was an unfired CVA SXS 12 ga for a Franklin now if I could only find a set of .50 or better yet .54 barrels I'd be set. .My wife bought me an 1842 French Tabatiere .69 converted to a shotgun in Dover,Tn for $75.00. I don't care much for in-lines as I consider them cheatin.

[mooman76]

You are fortunate to have such a variety and abundance of inexpensive M/Ls. Can't find any here and on the odd chance that I do it's allot for a cheap one. Gun shows want $200+ for an old beater CVA.

[mooman76]

I was talking inline ML..... which all have removable plugs.

You could probably shoot RBs out of a fast twist inline. Just keep your loads light and use a really tight patch. I shot them out of my 54 with a 1/20 twist.

[waarp8nt]

Where Did All Of The .58s And .54s Go?

They dun and R-U-N-N-O-F-T

Around here its the same...50 cal is definitely the most common front stuffer out there. There are just about as many .45 cal as there are .54 cal, I assume its because .45 cal is the smallest allowed for whitetail deer. We rarely see anything above .54 cal, if we do its a modern remake of an old military item used for reenactments.

I make every attempt to not miss the local ECA show here in Effingham because one of the largest dealers doesn't like muzzleloaders and it is reflected in the prices. I purchased a T/C Grey Hawk for $75 and passed on a CVA Mountain Rifle simply because I wasn't certain what model it was or its country of origin, but let me assure you it was priced right.

We are starting to see some custom and semi-custom stuff around here. I have thought about something like rfd had done, but couldn't decide between Rayl or Hoyt. I did buy a barrel from Green Mountain and would offer that up as an option to you and the fine folks here on the forum, but percussion breech plugs are non existent. I have tried Pecatonica, Track of the Wolf and The Gun Works...they all have them on order, but no expectation right away.

[Earlwb]

Around here the stores only have the common .50 caliber rifles. But online stores still sell the other calibers though. Dixie Gun Works comes to mind right off the bat though. I remember driving through and I stopped at Dixie Gun Works and sort of went hog wild at the time. That was in 1978. I wound up buying several guns from them at the time. I still have them all too. Much later I bought a .62 caliber rifled barrel with breech plugs (maybe two I forget at the moment) and a couple of stocks to make a couple of plains rifles, but I haven't done anything with them yet. I need to dig the things out and start doing something with them. The only .50 caliber rifle I have is a Dixie left hand flintlock Pennsylvania rifle that was made in Japan for DGW.

[Cheeto303]

You are fortunate to have such a variety and abundance of inexpensive M/Ls. Can't find any here and on the odd chance that I do it's allot for a cheap one. Gun shows want $200+ for an old beater CVA.

As soon as deer season ends it's time to hit all the pawn shops around here. It's amazing what one can find.

[Squeeze]

I’d like to know a little more about your fast twist <.45 cal rifles, loads, and results as I’ve often contemplated something like a .375-.40 for field hunting medium game hoping to achieve a projectile that can keep a point blank trajectory close to 4” out to 200 yds from a sidelock. This seems achievable with a .45 cal and a saboted Hornady 200 grn SST in .40 cal. The idea of a full bore lead bullet holds my fancy more though.

Its all old tech, .45 in 18-22 twist (I have several) My Go to is a 460 grn grease groove usually over 70 grns. I've tried the same in a 14 twist .36 with a 270 grn (accurate 36-270L)and it can outshoot me. I built one as a prototype and was so impressed, i'm now in the process of building another. My .40 is a 16 twist built around a rigby english sporting rifle kit (basically a gibbs/creedmoor style knockoff) 4" at 200 is easily doable with any.
The catch is, that I can only hunt deer here with .44+, so the smaller bores are mostly for range fun, with the occasional groundhog or coyote hunt thrown in.

[Good Cheer]

Heh, the only thing wrong with fifties is that they aren't made with one inch barrels.
Limits how big you can get it rebored to!
:razz:

OK, just kidding. One of my all time favorite shootin' irons is a Dixie fifty with a one inch barrel 43" long.
That piece will flat embarrass people sitting next to you trying to work their way through the annual ritual of sighting in the deer rifle.

[BPJONES]

Funny--a nice 54 caliber Thompson Center just showed up for sale for $295.00 in the city I live in. Has a scope mount on it though. I'd of thought about but I already have one.

[taco650]

I'll agree that the most common caliber seen by me is .50. I have one Traditions Kentucky rifle in it and just started assembling parts for a home-made half stock made from scrounged parts and it's barrel is an old T/C .50 half stock barrel. Not sure if its an old Hawken or Renegade barrel because it doesn't say but I don't care.

If $$$ were no object I'd have Waksupi build me a Jim Chambers Christian Springs rifle in .58 or .62 and get rid of my .50's but...

[indian joe]

Goin to a shoot over easter - takin a sharps 45/70, a 45 flinter, but the main match (three position 100 yards) will be shot with a sidelock CVA 54 - 1:66 twist - hornady 530 roundball - ticking patch - 100 grains FFG - its an 87 vintage barrel I paid fifty bucks for years ago.