School Me on Picking A No. 4

[Bigslug]

I may get an opportunity to purchase a No. 4 SMLE after getting to cherry pick my way through a batch of about a dozen my LGS is hoping will be available. Hoping for some guidance on the finer points of selection and rejection. Other than bore condition and matching of numbers, they've never hugely been my thing.

I was able to quickly identify at least one MKII among the MKI's. Any reason for preference there?

There's also a fairly clean Eddystone P14 among the batch. Missing the volley sight, but otherwise OK at quick inspection. Pretty sure I wouldn't have to sweat the stretching of headspace on that beast. . .

[higgins]

See if the seller will let you at least run a bronze brush through the bore and then examine it from the breech when dry. Most Enfields were fired by their American owners with corrosive surplus ammo, and they were rarely properly cleaned unless the owner was a surplus rifle fan who knew how to clean up chlorate-primed ammo. I know this comes under bore condition, of which you're already aware, but some sizeable pits can hide under either a coat of oil or loose fouling.

The Mk2 may have a bit of a better trigger pull because the trigger is hung from the action instead of the triggerguard plate. One marked FTR has been through Factory Thorough Repair (arsenal rebuild), so any worn parts including the barrel would have been replaced. Some purists aren't excited about FTR rifles because they've got mixed parts but for a shooter think of it as a rifle that could have less wear that a non-FTR.

[Bigslug]

I'm pretty tight with the shop owner; the plan is actually for me to hang out and get all the bores punched out, make sure any numbered magazines are moved around to match the receivers if that's possible, and generally get them ready to sell if indeed that comes to pass. Probably make him a few more bucks and get me the cream of the lot.

Good intel on the FTR stamp, and good intel on the MKII trigger. This will be a cast bullet projector, so that which makes for a better shooter is worth taking note of.

I may have the facts jumbled, but am I correct in that a MKII* (aka MKII "star") is a rifle that started life as a MKI and got converted?

[303Guy]

For cast you probably should be looking at a five-groove.

[Bloodman14]

I think the conversions were numbered differently; Number 4 Mk1/2, Mk2/3, etc. I can't find my Small Arms guide by Skennerton right now.

[leebuilder]

No4mk1 was the original production version, all plants
No4mk1* was the savage and long branch production.
No4mk2 was the improved version
No4mk1/2 was the British up grade mk1 to Mk2
No4mk1/3 was the savage and long branch upgrade to Mk2, ie breech mounted trigger.
I like ftrs for shooting but for collecting you want original all matching numbers.
I look for bore condition, crown and chamber, bullet test crown and chamber no pits and should look clean and smooth.
Headspace, should be tight and not exceed 0.067, I know it can go out farther but if you want a shot er this is the benchmark headspace.
Drilled and tapped, chipped rail, sights, bedding and a good look under the handguards.
The wood should match the rifle ie British wood on a British made or British ftr'ed rifle. Wood should match in colour. The trigger should be 2 stage and not springy. Bolt should match and void of scratches and the bolt head not clock more than 15 degrees past.
Bolt track not chipped.
If the charger guide is welded or not, not probably original, welded it was ftr'ed.
Theses are a few points I look for when someone want top dollar for a 303.
Be well

[Bigslug]

Leebuilder - many thanks!

"Bolt head should not clock more than 15 degrees past. . ." Am I correct in assuming you mean it should bottom out on its threads less than 15 degrees past its orientation in the action-closed position?

Headspace. . .probably going to be a roll of the dice, me being gaugeless and all.

Going to try to go back this afternoon - certainly by the weekend - to ply this new knowledge on them. They give off an FTR sort of vibe - wood looking like it might have gotten a sanding or a new coat of varnish, but maybe more with a factory, mass-produce attitude than that of restoring a classic car. To be continued. . .

[higgins]

Avoid a rifle marked DP on the metal or wood, but particularly on the metal. That's "Drill Purpose", a rifle unsuitable for some reason for firing ball ammo. The one's I've seen (mostly photographs) are prominently marked. Of course it's possible that DP-marked furniture was placed on a non-DP barreled action.

If the furniture has indeed been sanded and varnished that detracts greatly from value as a collector piece. If you can't read the tiny marks in the wood, or if they're gone altogether, you'll know it's been sanded. If you're wanting a shooter and not overly concerned with having a "proper" Enfield, it's still a good legitimate reason to reduce the price. Deciphering the markings on British and other European rifles is very interesting, and a study in itself. If you read the surplus rifle sites you will find much debate over some markings.

[leebuilder]

You are correct on the bolt head cocking.
Yes avoid DP marked ones, unless you know what to look for, seen a few sevrvicable rifles marked DP. Some parts were marked DP don't mean the rifles is DPED. There are some many desirable markings to look for but I look at the barrel first.
If the bolt don't match assume you need to check headspace. A full lenght sized casing with a known rim thickness can be geared up with tape or plastigauge to give you and idea of headspace.
Good luck

[Texas by God]

I'd be looking at the P14 first, then the no.4's. But that's just me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Hardcast416taylor]

I also would look more favorably at the P 14 than the Lee`s. The P 14 is a much stronger action of the Mauser heritage. It also lends itself for possible future making into a rifle of a different cartridge family. In years passed I looked for both P 14 & 17 rifles that some well meaning `BUBBA` had cut up for his sporter. I was basically after the action anyways. The Lee`s are what they are and only a lot of work can make them otherwise.Robert

[Bigslug]

Went back today and started digging deeper. Most of what's there seemed to be marked No. 4 MKI (F) or No. 4 MKII (F). Any idea what the parentheses F is all about?

I was able to come up with three that are decent bores, matching bolts, and 1-marked bolt heads. Two of those I was able to match the magazine up on. Nothing to generate serious mouth-foam over, but we'll see what they price at.

And yep, priority is on the P14. Mismatched bolt, but I'd be willing to roll the dice on that.

[samari46]

Think the F stands for the place where the rifle was made Fazakerly not sure about the spelling. Get the P14 first as it is a strong action and better suited for both cast and j word bullets. I do have a 1949 Faz plus a Parker Hale sporter on a Long Branch action. And a cut down model of 1917 Winchester in 30-06. Have fun as that is what it is all about. Frank

[Bloodman14]

Yes, the (F) means Fazakerly made, an arsenal around Liverpool, I believe. Still can't find that book.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The easy way to check the headspace is to take a fired cartridge measure the overall length of the case, and then push the primer part way out.

Then you close the bolt on the case which pushes the primer back in and takes all the slop out. The primer will be sticking out a little so you measure how much by measuring the OAL again, note the difference, and add it to the thickness of the rim and you've got the headspace number.

This is a simple and accurate method of checking headspace. Since the cartridge headspaces on the rim you can cut a cartridge case off in front of the case web so you don't have to contend with varying chamber profiles, and make an inexpensive Headspace gage..

Randy

[Texas by God]

That's a great idea and one I will borrow, Mr. WRB. Beats cutting shim stock!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[samari46]

Hey, for once I got the spelling right on Fazakerly that doesn't happen that often. Kinda gave up on finding a mint condition Long branch later model which is why I got a good deal on the Parker Hale #4MKI* two groove barrel. Still can't find my Skennerton book on the Lee Enfield. Need to reorganize my library. Frank

[gwpercle]

Look for one made at the BSA arsenal , Birmingham Small Arms , these are exceptionally well made.
Mine is marked on the wrist socket: O (that's capital letter O, not the number zero)
1942
No. 490
The bore measures .303 , each groove is .004 deep for a total of .311 . A .312 boolit shots like a dream as does factory ammo. I later found out the BSA's were known for being well made. I thought the capital O was a zero , but later found out it's a designation for BSA , these rifles were not made in huge numbers and desirable for being well machined and having close tolerances.
Look for one in good shape. Mine appeared unissued or at least very well taken care of.
Gary

[EO1]

The MK2s were made in the late 40s until 55 and are usually the better made since they were not of wartime production. Coin type headspace gauges are cheap.

[Greg B.]

I have a No. 4 Mk 1 made by Long Branch in 1943. Paid $25.00 back in 68 and this was about $10.00 too much. There is a lot of good information on this tread and I can add a few minor points based on experience. If you get one of these rifles clean the grease out of it. The first winter hunt I went on I decided to take a shot after we were through for the day. Pulled the trigger and nothing happened. Worked fine in the summer but the grease had gummed up the bolt in the winter.

Concerning head space there a number of different sized bolt heads you can still find that will alter the head space and they are easy to install.

Sites on the No. 4 are typically the two position flip up for 300(?) and 600 yards. The ladder peep site is a much better proposition and is also a bolt on replacement. Some came with this site although I was fortunate to have the LGS give me one. I also replaced the front site with the tallest one I could find. Another bolt on part that cost $2.00 at a gun show years ago.

In order to get this thing to hit a a 10" or 12" bulls eye at 100 yards an appropriate jacketed load had to be used. One of the locals suggested a 150 grain bullet at 2500 fps. Found one in my old Number 9 Speer Manual. Not the most accurate (all right I'me a lousey shot) but it works.

Concerning cast boolits if you get a No. 4 with 5 lands and groves you will have fun slugging the barrel or rather measuring the results as there will be a land on one side and a groove on the other. It can be done using a set of "V" blocks but I don't know how. Myself I am going to use a a cast bullet and load listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and hope for the best.

Good Luck.

[samari46]

The bolt head on a #4 should have the bolt fully screwed in and the bottom of the bolt head should be close or touching the front of the bolt body. The amount the bolt head mentioned is the maximum the bolt head should swing past being fully engaged. Never have the threads take the strain when fired. Armor's when fitting bolt heads at the arsenal or factory had bins of bolt heads. if one didn't match up according to the specs then they would simply try another one until the fit was according to specs. Kinda a trial and error thing. Frank

[Bigslug]

Got a happy price on both the P14 and a No.4 MKI (F). No.4 is all matched and clean. #1 headspace bolt head and not too crazy on the swing-past. Needs a couple of rear sight parts which I've already ordered. . .with sling. . .and spike bayonet. . .and stripper clips. . . Thanks for the assist fellas!
:drinks:

[303Guy]

:drinks:

Good to hear! Now we need photos. [smilie=1:

[Texas by God]

The No.4 is THE bolt action battle rifle. And it won a G&A WW2 shootout. But the P14 will be better in the reloading end of things I suspect. Good snag and where are the pictures?

[Multigunner]

A thing to remember about the No.4 is that the majority of the war time manufacture barrels are very sensitive to bullet types. Some will put flat based bullets into tight groups but scatter boatail bullets hither and yon often key holing every round. Others will handle any bullet of any weight so long as a fast burning propellant is used but fire patterns rather than groups if slow powders are used.

Load development can be tricky with those barrels.

[tbx-4]

With my limited experience with Lee Enfields I’d say the sensitivity to flat based versus boat tail bullets is from the condition of the crown on the muzzle. Re-crowning an old barrel never hurts.

My 1942 Maltby No4 Mk1 with 2 groove barrel shoots very tight groups after re-crowning. Used a 1/4-20 brass stove bolt and valve grinding compound spun in a drill motor to make new crown.

[leebuilder]

Welcome to the 303 enigma. I won't dought anyones experience, but I have found.
Barrels and barrel condition is crucial, but bad barrels can shoot good groups????
Bedding is crucial, but free floating improves short range groups. Front bedded barrels shoot great groups at long range.
Flat base or boat tail. I prefer flat base, so do most other 303 shooters, proof is on the paper. I think it's about how much of the bullet engages the rifling.
Slow versus fast powders, well you will have to try that one for yourself but I don't think I can improve on a 150gr bullet under re22. My hunting round is 174 or 180gr under H335, I call it a meat missle.
The "king" bushing has alot to do with consistency, once it's properly seated and torqued groups will improve!.
The crown must be even and in good shape, this is for all rifles, most 303s have some damage from maintaince. Most sporters or "bombers" have bad crowns but shoot just fine, once fixed they shoot great over a greater range of ammo especially our beloved lead boolits.
Trigger smoothness is crucial at.range and your cocking piece must be tight on the firing pin.
Headspace isn't crucial unless you intend to reload for that rifle.
The throat is problematic you can find rifles that look like they have no throat for three inches and shoot just fine. Some newer barrels still need breaking in.
2 groove, 5 or 6 groove seen many 2 groove out shoot an other barrel.
I am sure you will never own a 303, you are just the custodian of said rifle during your lifetime.
"On the line with a 5 round charger,,,,,,, LOAD!!!"
be well.

[303Guy]

I have a two-groove No4 that shoots Privi Partisan 180gr boat tails very accurately. They are .310 for a bore of .304 IIRC. Those privi's have the ogive further forward than larger diameter Hornady's or Speer's. I did recrown that rifle - by cutting off half an inch and chucking it in a lathe.


The "king" bushing has a lot to do with consistency, once it's properly seated and torqued groups will improve!.
Excuse my ignorance but would you elaborate on the "king" bushing?

I have a No4 barreled MLE that shot 1.25 MOA groups with Hornady 150 gr spire points all day long. Ten shot groups. Speer 180 gr RN's too. The powder was MR200 (Musgrave Rifle made by Somchem). I did get better groups with Sierra 150's, 1 MOA.

[Bigslug]

Pics - We have 10-day California Purgatory to contend with. Gonna be a little longer cuz I'm piggybacking a handgun transfer to save fees and won't start it for a few more days. Might get some pics up then - certainly after they come home.

"The bolt-action battle rifle" - Not to horn-toot, but I'm pretty fast with a bolt action, courtesy of a few years spent getting my Expert card in NRA Highpower with a Match Rifle (this was in the early stages of the AR taking over that game, and I was one of the bolt gun / stripper clip holdouts). Now I will have probably the fastest turnbolt made - I think I'm going to see how close I can get to the Mad Minute record.

Bullet selection / Barrel date - It's a post-war gun. . .1949 as I recall. As to the bullet, this is almost one of those amusing bought the rifle because I had a mold stories. I've got a 311331 218 gr clone that casts too fat - especially in the bore ride section - to be happy in the .30-06's I bought it for. Should be happy in these two; if not, I've got an excuse to buy one of NOE's diameter upscaled 311299's.

[303Guy]

Fat and heavy cast boolits seem to align in the bore very well. Even my rifle that puts a bullet skew will align a heavy (240gr) well.

I'm super fast with a Remington 22lr sportmaster. Not so much with my Lee Enfields - I catch each case as they eject. :-)
I had a semi-auto (mini-14). I never fired a rapid second shot. I would pick up each case before taking the next shot.

I have a magazine without spring or follower - I use that on the range as the spent cases fall straight down into it.

Did you know you can use stripper clips in the earlier MLE? Yup, place the clip over the mag and push em in.

[leebuilder]

The king bushing is the bushing between the receiver and trigger guard. To loose (to long) well you don't have to be an engineer to figure out what happens. To tight (to short) it bears on the wood and causes inconsistent groups and will ruin your stock with repeated firing.

The barrel date can be found around the 9 to 11 o'clock position on the barrel shank holding the rifle in normal firing position. Two digit number an 1/8 of an inch in height.
Not all refurbished had a barrel change. 1949 is when they adopted the Mk2 version and modified select mk1 and mk1☆ rifles.
I think with time and trial and terror you can make any boolit fly in the 303, just has to have that crucial rifling engagement and velocity. I recently got a Noe 314125 hp and with 5.5 grs of titegroup its hard to beat. Even used some PCed culls that I had to file the nose to get rid of globbs of PC, still shot 2" groups at 66m with more than ten rounds. In a worn 2 groove and new criterion barrel.

185 Lee and the 314299 are hard to beat they just have to have that minimum diameter.

[303Guy]

Aah yes. The king bush. Thanks.

[Bigslug]

Pics as promised:

219915

Home safe and sound. Went straight from the shop to my Dad's place where the No.4 got it's new 1300Y rear sight (old had no elevation detent clicks) and sight plunger spring (old was a quarter inch too short to tension anything), and the P14 got a stacking swivel and screw (which in retrospect were probably pulled during the same service that removed the volley sights). Both got slings and to the range we raced with two boxes of 180 grain soft point Prvi to generate some dimensioned brass.

219916

100 yard off rest with the P14 with two sight settings - thought I had the flip-peep all the way down at first, but it had a little skosh lower to go.

219918

And the same for the No. 4, which I'm REALLY happy with. This is two corrections on the front sight for windage with the flip-peep one click up from bottomed out.

Brought Dad home where we cleaned and chamber-slugged. Looks like .31375"/.302+ for groove/bore on the No.4 and a bit bigger on the P14. Numbers and brass to be cogitated on more deeply. Hopefully the final determinations will be that same mold/same load is a possibility - got the Redding 3-die set, so plan to neck-size only if feasible.

It looks like the aforementioned mold is not going to work for either, so on to contemplate new molds. Isn't this a fun disease we have?[smilie=1:

[303Calgary]

Hi, am new to this group but agree with your preference for the P14. I have a couple Enfields too but just love my Winchester P14!

[Bigslug]

Yes, well, unfortunately rolling the dice on the mismatched bolt on this P14 came up snake eyes. Nothing too heinous to be found with the factory Prvi, but on soft cast loads, we've got primers backing out. I fabbed up a field/reject headspace gauge by shimming the back of an A-Zoom snap cap up to 0.070". It halts bolt closure nicely on the No.4, but gets swallowed by the P14. I still need to add additional shims to that to see just how much I'm missing by, then start to contemplate what's needed in a replacement bolt body. Alternatively, I can study how happy it will be by neck-sizing the once-shot brass.

Meanwhile, the No.4 got a few shims inserted into the stock to bring it back to proper barrel up-pressure, and it looks like it will easily be a sub-2-MOA rifle by the time all is done.

Somewhat stuck on both while NOE gets around to the next run of 314299 and 316299. My somewhat mis-proportioned 311331 actually shows some promise in the No.4, but it's not REALLY what either gun wants.

[303Guy]

Don't get too hung up on the headspace issue with the P14. Lube the loaded cases with something like STP smoke stopper and give them some pressure. The STP will allow the case head to settle back onto the bolt face and set the shoulder forward for proper headspacing on said shoulder. Reload without neck sizing and you will be set. If your boolits are loose in the neck then seat them with paper towel to take up the clearance. I have loaded with just firm lube to hold the boolit in the neck. My lube required melting actually. I cut the paper towel into strips and set them crossways to form a 'paper cup' in the neck.

[nekshot]

Don't get too hung up on the headspace issue with the P14. Lube the loaded cases with something like STP smoke stopper and give them some pressure. The STP will allow the case head to settle back onto the bolt face and set the shoulder forward for proper headspacing on said shoulder. Reload without neck sizing and you will be set. If your boolits are loose in the eck then seat them with paper towel to take up the clearance. I have loaded with just firm lube to hold the boolit in the neck. My lube required melting actually. I cut the paper towel into strips and set them crossways to form a 'paper cup' in the neck.


I totally agree with this for the p14. I would rather shoot and reprime, powder, and then insert boolit by hand and crimp. I have lost count of the loadings I get by doing it this way and same brass. Also that p14 is possibly a total piece of junk and I would gladly deliver you of it. Hey, I'll even pay the postage!

[one-eyed fat man]

Standard .303 Mk VII ball consisted of a 174 grain flat based spitzer with a velocity of 2440 fps, an excellent rifle cartridge. To extend the range of the Vickers machine gun for indirect fire, Mk VIIIz ball was developed. Upping the velocity to 2550 and changing the bullet from a flat base to a long boatail design. As a result the max range of the Vickers went from 3700 yards with Mk VII to 4500 yards with Mk VII.

Of special note is British wartime experience with the barrel erosion characteristics of Mk VII ball and Mk VIII ball. They found that barrels should be used with either one or the other but not with both. This was due to the different wear patterns of the two different cartridges. This gave rise to things, Mk VIIIz was "designated" machine gun only, so of course, rifle were eager to get their hands on it thinking it was "more powerful.' Vickers barrels that had been used with Mk VII ball were to be stamped with a number 7 on the trunnion and not to be used for overhead fire. (I’d hate to know who found that out!)

Where that is of concern today is that none of the bullet makers produce a flat base FMJ bullet. Currently available commercial ammo likewise uses boattail bullets. Any rifle that has shot appreciable amounts of old cordite loaded, flat base bullet Mk VII ball will very often fail to stabilize boattail bullets.

[Outpost75]

Coming late to the party here, but my 2-groove No.4 Mk2 Long Branch likes NOE clone of #314299 cast 13 BHN and sized .316 with 30 grains of either 4064, RL15 or Varget.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You are correct on the bolt head cocking.
Yes avoid DP marked ones, unless you know what to look for, seen a few sevrvicable rifles marked DP. Some parts were marked DP don't mean the rifles is DPED. There are some many desirable markings to look for but I look at the barrel first.
If the bolt don't match assume you need to check headspace. A full lenght sized casing with a known rim thickness can be geared up with tape or plastigauge to give you and idea of headspace.
Good luck

I'd rather say look very carefully at DP marked rifles, but avoid them on principle only if you are looking for high collector value. Some Lee-Enfields were indeed relegated to drill purpose because they were in an advanced but sometimes not easily detectable state of decrepitude. But what do you do with millions of rifles, some of them superseded models, when nobody is going to be stupid enough to start another major war? I have seen the DP stamp on as sound and usable a Long Lee-Enfield as you could wish to find.

The type of "headspace" that matters most on a Lee-Enfield isn't the genuine article at all, but something very like the headspace (and shoulder diameter) of a rimless rifle. That area of the chamber is often very oversize, and the width mean that neck-sizing only, with standard reloading dies, isn't a complete answer.

It is often said that this was because not being easily jammed by dirt was found to be worth some loss of accuracy on the last big use of the No1 Lee-Enfield. That was probably part of it but I think it was partly the same reason as oversize bores cut with a broach. Reamers and broaches alike may have started out oversize, to stand the maximum number of resharpenings.

I'm fairly sure that the oversize groove diameters, at least, reverse the natural order of things in war emergency production, by being more common in early rifles.

There is, however, a late wartime barrel which is made of drawn tubing shrink-fitted and pinned into a threaded stub. These very occasionally loosen, although I have never heard of an accident resulting.

Yes, it is a pity about flat-based bullets not being available. There used to be a rifle kept, at Enfield I believe, for testing single-base powder, and it nonetheless became eroded to an extent few of us would think worth shooting. I disremember the gauge figures, ut they were remarkable. It nonetheless gave quite presentable groups as long as flat based, thin jacketed bullets were used. I think you could go a bit the same way with barrels that were just a little bit worn.

The battle rifle, I think, ought to be the No1 SMLE. Or if you want the only war in history when the rifle truly was the dominant weapon, the Long Lee-Enfield.

[leebuilder]

I know I am right BOS, I helped DP several cno7 many were new straight out of the transit chest, and yes I still have the taste of vomit in my mouth. None were DP marked, that was left to the end user to do. I have a LEC with stamped out of service and DP markings, it's still serviceable. Also have a few DP stamped no4, still sevrvicable. Many new no1 parts like nose caps and rear sight protectors stamped DP, still can be found and recycled onto restorations. My time at W6 I saw many no4, any out of spec head space was due to mismatched bolts and bolt heads, many to most failed and we're DPed because of elongated chambers and barrels worn out. These were also void of DP stamps. I can assume that the specs for DPing a rifle changed, now rods are smashed into the barrels and welded from both ends, the chamber filled so a bolt wont close on it and the bolt discarded.
That's why I check barrel condition first, mismatched bolts may be a fix, it may be a way to get rid of a rifle with no bolt. So beware.
I like p14s I have a few and always on the look out for resonably priced ones with good bores, they can be fixed up or barrels recycled for other 303's. The last 20 or so I looked at had trumpet muzzles or were just plain baked. Lots of p14s were badly bubba'ed, and are now coming out.
FTRed rifles are worth a closer look, some were fixed and then sold off, I know up here there are piles of FTR 1953 stamped no1s all I have seen have new barrels and worth a second look.
Be well

[Bigslug]

Well, I'm getting the P14 bolt dealt with. Weighed the cons of dealing with excessive headspace through various loading tricks and decided I'd rather have the gun be right. To be continued. . .

[leebuilder]

I would remove the barrel, cut one thread off and reset the headspace. There is no extractor cut on p14s, there is clearence provided on the later models but i dont think its nessesary unless you are swiming in the mud.
Be well

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The cracks found in the receiver rings of some American Enfields seems at least some of the time to be associated with the extreme force required to unscrew the barrel. But the tightness is between the barrel shoulder and the front face of the action, not the threads themselves, and there is no Mauser-style internal stop ring against which the rear of the barrel makes contact. So you can relieve the tension and unscrew it easily by making a shallow saw-cut around the barrel, as close to the receiver as you can get. Keep the far side of the saw-cut less than a tenth of an inch from the receiver, and it will vanish when you lathe-turn the new barrel shoulder.