Does a full length guide rod improve accuracy in a Colt NM 1911?

[40-82 hiker]

I've got a Colt NM 1911 in .45ACP that I am going to resurrect if my back will allow me (picking up brass - ARGH). It is certainly more accurate than I am offhand, but I bounced this issue around some time ago and would just like to see some answers from those who can give definitive analysis to my question about improved accuracy or not. I have done some reading about this in the past, but I would like to hear from someone who has actually replaced the standard spring guide rod with a full length one.

Target load is all I shoot: 200 gr. SWC, 3.5gr. Bullseye, light Colt spring (two came with the pistol, this is the light one, but I do not know its pound rating).

I've got to give up my revolver for a while, as it is too heavy for my spine for now, and I'll trade the weight for having to grovel in the dirt on all fours to get the brass. I love shooting it, however. :bigsmyl2:

Thanks,
Bob

[GhostHawk]

I doubt my answer is definative.

I have a Springfield Armory 1911, made mid 90's. No full length guide rod.

Gun will shoot better than I can hold. Period.

Lock it into a vice or a real good rest, fire 5 at whatever distance you like.
Then take it out and fire 5 with any hold you like. I suspect your group size will more than double.

Chances are the gun will already shoot better than you can hold.

So why chase the gun? Put the energy into teaching the shooter.

[gray wolf]

That question may be a little hard to give a complete blanket statement.
All guns could very well react a tad differently.

Full length G/R will add some weight to the pistol,some people think this helps accuracy.

Also there is some thought that the F/L guide rod prevents spring bind.

I have shot some Dan Wesson 1911's that were very accurate with the G/I
style G/R

As with all gun tweaks---how good does a person shoot ?
If your a great shot some small improvements can be seen.
I doubt a F/L rod is going to show you much.

If your looking to control recoil a little then the heavier G/R can help
some.

People need to still work with other things, it's a whole package.

Just sayin---

Edit-- I agree with GHOSTHAWK

[40-82 hiker]

Thanks. I was just wondering what people thought about such. Sandy Garret did the trigger job for me in the later 80s, and it is a very accurate pistol as is. Just a passing curiosity...

[lefty o]

generally no ,they do not add accuracy.

[Two Barrels]

I have not been able to discern any appreciable difference in accuracy by just a change in guide rod style.

I tired of picking up brass too and bought a brass catcher. Getting it positioned correctly was trial and error. I like it alot now. Saves me time at the range by not having to search for spent brass.

[Bigslug]

My SOP is to rip the full-length guide rods OUT of any 1911 that follows me home and replace it with the original GI profile parts, largely down to me having a real peeve about needing things like Allen wrenches to field-strip a pistol that could originally be detail-stripped with nothing for tools but its own parts.

But accuracy in the system stems from ability of the gun to consistently lock the barrel into relationship with the sights/slide every time. This is going to be a factor of the barrel bushing's fit to barrel and slide and of barrel and link to slide, and all of that gets hammered home by the recoil spring regardless of how that spring is contained. You might get some improvement if the tolerances in the gun suck, but otherwise probably not.

I figure the "definitive" answer on the subject probably comes from Les Baer, makers of probably the most accurate 1911's out there. If FLGR's helped in the accuracy department, they would use them. They don't.

[Bazoo]

From what I gather, the main advantage is that they add weight to the front of the gun. I personally dont like them as It prohibits a press check.

[40-82 hiker]

So why chase the gun? Put the energy into teaching the shooter.

Thanks GhostHawk... This is what I consider shooting all about (the shooter). I've shot this pistol considerably over the years, but my crushed body is giving up the ability to hold the gun up for very long. Still, I work at my technique every session. Just thought I would show what this pistol is capable of, and myself when I can catch a good day for my spine. Did this one day last week, 50 feet, offhand (two-hand hold - can't hold the gun up with one hand), 5 shots (most I can shoot accurately in a slow-fire string). Called the one at 4 o'clock, the others were good calls. I know people on CB can do this all day long, every day, but I really have to work at it to stay consistent. Too many bad days... Still, some good days. :bigsmyl2: Didn't think I could still shoot 4 tens in a row, the 5th being at 4. Wish I could not see those holes at 50 feet while shooting!

Have a nice evening.

216715

[40-82 hiker]

Thanks guys. I'm not going to get a full length rod. As I stated earlier, I was just curious. The extra weight would actually work against me, but it would help settle the gun down some. I've just taken it out twice recently, after a hiatus with it of around 2 years. The first time a couple of weeks ago the front sight popped up! Yep, I had to tap it back in with blue loctite (did not have the heart to use red). The above target was the second time out, first after fixing the front sight. Thank goodness for Youtube! I did not stake it, but will if it comes back up. Since I only shoot such low-power loads, I'm guessing it will be okay. Second time, I'll stake it.

[Bazoo]

Thats mighty respectable at 50 feet I think. Bout what I can do.

[40-82 hiker]

Bazoo,

I have never fired a pistol like my 1911 NM before. To me it is more like shooting a rifle than a pistol, at least in its potential for accuracy. I have to admit that I had never even fired a 1911 before purchasing this one way back when, and only fired one other since. Guess I need to get out more. I guess what I am saying about it being more like a rifle, is that my calls are more spot on like that of a rifle than a pistol. Maybe it's just me, but that's the way I see it.

[35remington]

Better not to see the holes when you are shooting as you will psych yourself out, but with 45 caliber holes you don’t have much chance of not seeing them unless the target is pretty far away.

Oh well. I just try to concentrate my brains out on sight picture and trigger management and let the chips fall where they may so to speak.

[JimB..]

That’s good shooting. Sorry for your physical challenges. While you like the full size 1911 have you considered shooting a lightweight commander or even, gasp, trying a revolver in .38 spcl?

[40-82 hiker]

That’s good shooting. Sorry for your physical challenges. While you like the full size 1911 have you considered shooting a lightweight commander or even, gasp, trying a revolver in .38 spcl?

No gasp involved at all: I would absolutely love to have .38 Spcl. Hands down, really. I have been shooting a Colt Trooper MkIII for some time, using HG #50, .38 Spcl wadcutter brass, 2.7 grs. Bullseye, and .357 mag brass with 2.9 grs. Bullseye, and same HG #50. Love those loads! However, the pistol is heavy for its intended use by me, and there is only so much a Wolf Spring Kit can do for it (the sintered steel action parts, with surface hardening, preclude honing, so the revolver will never be a true target pistol, though I sure use it as such!). Just getting too heavy at around 45-46 ounces with the 6 inch barrel. I'll be working on getting the .38 soon, I hope. Been looking for now going on too long!

As to the small .45s, really have not considered them, but cannot say why. I'll have $$ for only one, so it will be the .38. Edit: Don't have to chase the .38 brass.

Thanks

[Silverboolit]

Can't offer much advice about .45 shooting as we all have our priorities. However, the brass retrieval is a lot better with a Brass Wizard. It looks like an old time bingo ball age and is made to pick up brass without getting on all fours. I really like mine, and my shooting partner uses it like a lawnmower to pick up all of the range brass on the ground.

[bob208]

don't know about the guide rod. I don't like them.
but I can hel you get shooting again. go to a tool or hardware store. they have a tool about 18 inches long. push on the handle end and 4 fingers come out the other works great for fishing out dropped wrenches nuts and bolts. also does a wonderful job picking up brass.

[KVO]

Bigslug is correct with parts fitting and lockup for accuracy. When I worked with one of the well-known competition shops the national-match bullseye pistols were built with a standard GI recoil spring and guide rod setup. Absolutely no difference in accuracy at 50 yd from a mechanical rest between standard versus full length guide rods. The better guns would hold 1.75" for ten shots with selected ammo, some better and a few worse.

On the other hand, the 3-gun/action side of the house always used full length guide rods, not for accuracy enhancement but because the shooters subjectively felt the guns ran smoother and were able to recover for followup shots faster. How much difference it made in reality is questionable, but if it gave them more confidence in their equipment it was worth it.

[Plate plinker]

No it doesn’t not. I also know 1911 affciamdo gunsmiths that dislike those things.

[40-82 hiker]

However, the brass retrieval is a lot better with a Brass Wizard.

Just ordered one. Thanks! Others offered advice about picking up brass as well, so who am I to stand in the way of progress. Happy days are here again, the skies are blue...

Still going to get the .38, but going to keep the 1911 out for good now. I shoot over dirt at the range, but it looks like the Brass Wizard works best on harder surfaces, so I'll have to put out a drop cloth or such to land the brass on. I tried a brass catcher once, and HATED it. Maybe I did not give it enough time.

[JimB..]

Good luck with the search, finding a nice k38 (now model 14 I think) used to be pretty easy and relatively inexpensive, but I haven’t any idea where the market currently is.

[JBinMN]

Just ordered one. Thanks! Others offered advice about picking up brass as well, so who am I to stand in the way of progress. Happy days are here again, the skies are blue...

Still going to get the .38, but going to keep the 1911 out for good now. I shoot over dirt at the range, but it looks like the Brass Wizard works best on harder surfaces, so I'll have to put out a drop cloth or such to land the brass on. I tried a brass catcher once, and HATED it. Maybe I did not give it enough time.

I use a 9x12 ft. painters drop cloth( canvas tarp) placed on an angle behind me & to my right, middle edge at my feet. ( Although I have used those cheap plastic ones as well, I like the cloth better)
Sometimes right on the ground if it is dry out, but when it is damp out/wet ground, I just hang it up between 2 trees, or from my vehicle to a post/tree/etc. & leave 2/3rd in the air - 1/3 on the ground to catch them. Then when I am done, I just pick up the tarp so it gathers all the brass at one end & either gather & drop into a 5 gallon bucket or just grab them up & put them in some other container if I don't have the bucket.

I do not shoot at a "range" per se, but usually on state land, or private land where I have permission. I also use a few different bullet/boolit traps as well, so everything gets captured for reuse. ( 99.9% anyway).

Works for me, might for you too...

G'luck! with your shooting & purchase of the wheel gun!
:)

( Pretty nice off hand shooting on that target ya posted too!)
;)

[bgw45]

If I could buy anything it would be "trigger control".

[9.3X62AL]

Policing brass is a challenge for me as well. I use the drop cloth method for most of my shooting, which usually takes place "Al Fresco" in the deserts east of Indio or Barstow.

I have pistols that use recoil spring guide rods as part of their OEM equipage--pistols that use the barrel as a recoil guide rod--and some pistols that have 1911-ish rodless recoil springs. They all seem to work for me. I haven't changed out the OEM systems in any of my pistols, other than in my Walther PP x 32 ACP that was given 380 ACP springing to enable enhanced ballistics.

[Bazoo]

Slightly off subject. But a full size 1911, with an aluminum frame, sure feels nice in hand. I've never fired one however so I cant attest to recoil. I did however, have a Ciener 22 conversion kit for my 1911 a while, and I loved it. You might consider one of them, if they suit you.

[9.3X62AL]

Taking up where Bazoo left off.......I have 2 SIG-Sauer pistols that feature a full-size aluminum frame and Commander-length slide/barrel (both 4.4"). I used both for several years as on-duty and off-duty CCW arms, and their weight was reasonable. Once you remove the slide/barrel "upper half" of a SIG pistol, there isn't much weight to the receiver assembly at all. FWIW.

[charlie b]

The wife loves her light Colt Commander. I do too, but, the stock pistol is not a tack driver.

My full size 1911 was gone over by a good smith many years ago. It shoots much better than I can. It does have a full length guide rod. I like it just because it seems to make operating the slide smoother.

Father-in-law's old National Match model shoots just as well without a full length guide rod (it has the ball bearing barrel bushing). So I would say the full length rod does not aid accuracy by itself.

I can relate to the idea of shooting it like a rifle, being able to call the shots when the trigger breaks. Fun to do with pistols.

[GhostHawk]

Well I hear you on diminishing ability, age plays a factor, as do health issues.

To be honest I shot my 1911 for the first time in 2 years last weekend.

Had the neighbor boys to the range, Jean being a 14 yr Ranger with multiple tours in the sandbox and Afghanistan was wildly excited when I pulled the Springfield Armory out of the bag.

I put 5 through it, and frankly it was not as bad as I remember.

But I really enjoy every round I put through my little H&R 732 2.5 inch revolver in .32sw long.

Those are just plain fun. And It does not hurt that I am shooting tighter and more centered groups with every cylinder I fire through it.

Last week it was 6 rounds inside a 2" shoot and see stick on bullseye.

3 made one hole, and 3 made another hole just below it. Dead center split evenly between them.

I was beaming from ear to ear. Walking on air and standing proud.

Sometimes it is about what is easier. Less about the other things.

[Reverend Al]

Just my 2 cents worth BUT ... when I built my custom IPSC 1911 Colt Government way back in the early 80's I had access to a Ransom Rest so I took my newly built .45 out to the range and tried shooting several groups at 50 yards with the standard short rod and then with a full length guide rod. Using my 3 favorite "pet loads" in that .45 they all shot HALF the group size at 50 yards in the Ransom Rest (with the human error factor removed) with the full length guide rod. I've used full length guide rods in all of my 1911's ever since. Can I hold as well as a Ransom Rest at even 25 yards rather than 50 yards? No, of course not ... but I do have a great deal of CONFIDENCE in my gun with the knowledge that it shoots FAR better than I can possibly hold it shooting offhand. That works for me. Considering the very small relative cost of a good quality one piece guide rod for a 1911 these days I'd go ahead and buy one and test it for yourself in your gun and see what results you get with and without it. Then make a decision. Just sayin' ...

[Boogieman]

I have used 1911s with and without guide rods. The shorter ones ,less than 4", seem to run better with a FL rod. I think Reverend Al had the answer, CONFIDENCE, if you think the FL guide rod makes your gun shoot better it will , for YOU. In the end that's what really matters.

[7br]

Google brass retriever. They look like a wire cage on a stick. You roll the cage over the brass, the wires allow the brass to enter the cage.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[lefty o]

I have used 1911s with and without guide rods. The shorter ones ,less than 4", seem to run better with a FL rod. I think Reverend Al had the answer, CONFIDENCE, if you think the FL guide rod makes your gun shoot better it will , for YOU. In the end that's what really matters.

there is truth in that. whats between the ears is just as important as what reality really is.

[Char-Gar]

The only things positive a full length guide rod in a 1911 pistol does, is put money in the pockets of those who make them and sell them.

[oldsalt444]

I'm a bullseye pistol shooter since the 1980's, and all my 1911s have guide rods. It's common practice. The accuracy of the 1911 is based on the proper fit of the barrel to the slide, and to a lesser degree, of the slide to the frame. The guide rod doesn't contribute to mechanical accuracy, but the little extra weight up front helps you hold steadier and will help your spring to last much longer. They're worth the money IMHO. Get yourself a brass catcher and save your back. Mine is set on a camera tripod and is easily adjusted for the right height.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Jerry Miculik whose FIL was a famous 1911 gun smith named Clark, I can't remember his first name. Jerry said he was in Clark's shop one day when a customer brought in a 1911 to be worked on. He said the first thing Clark did was take out the long guide rod and throw it in the trash can. When the customer asked, why did you do that, I just bought it and Clark replied, "that's because your stupid".

[Walkingwolf]

Did the Marine shooting team use full length guide rods decades ago? They may now but when I saw them shoot they used a short guide rod.