New caster - lead question

[Md2hunt]

I've been loading for a long time and thought I'd try casting to save $$. I recently bought some lead from a yard sale deal. Ingots marked RCBS. I ran a couple and cast my 1st lead today. Some came out real nice - shiny. Some are dull. Curious about the type of lead I melted and why the difference.
I smoked my new mold and pre-heated before I started. Also I'm not sure what setting the pot should be set to. It's a Lee and I had it on Number 8.

Any help is appreciated.
Thanks

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Md2hunt,
Welcome to the forum.

I moved your post to a area where you are more likely to get some good answers.

[454PB]

The shiny ones are from too little heat (mould and/or alloy), the dull looking ones are from too much heat. Each Lee pot is different, but of the three I own, the setting that works best is between 6 and 7. Hang in there and do some more experimenting, you'll find the right combinations.

[BNE]

Welcome to the madness. There is no turning back now.

Good looking bullets even with the differences. I use a Lee pot also. What you are seeing is the temp. difference. Shiny typically means too cold, Frosty means too hot. (Both will shoot, but what you are really looking for is consistency. If you add a Thermometer you will see that the temp of the pot will change as you are casting. Its all a balance. Mold temp, pot temp, cadence of casting, how often you add new lead to the pot, the size of that lead..... It can be overwhelming, but start sing the search function up above and you will find out almost everything you need to know.

Also, the "RCBS" ingots are just the stamp on the RCBS ingot mold. It will tell you nothing about the alloy mix.

BNE

[Mal Paso]

Lee pots are like an electric range giving more or less heat as you turn the knob but not a specific temperature. A thermometer either electronic or mechanical will give you a handle on it. If you are handy you could assemble a PID and use the thermometer part for now.

[Grmps]

Welcome to CB Md2hunt. If you decided to cast to save money, forget it. You won't, you'll just shoot more.

Your boolits look great, especially for the first go round.

Cast boolit accuracy is determined by fit - boolit should be .0005 to .003 over slugged bore diameter

Alloy - bullet needs to be soft enough to obturate (fill the grooves) and hard enough to hold together and not lead the barrel

Velocity - again push the4 boolit hard enough to obturate and spin fast enough to be accurate but not so hard as to strip lead of going down the barrel.

You'll find a lot of good information here http://www.lasc.us/

these will help you get started:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?356846-Predicted-Physical-Characteristics-of-Bullets-Cast-in-Various-Alloys
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=105952
You need to be able to determine the hardness of the lead- cheap & effective
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing

[44Blam]

Welcome to CB Md2hunt. If you decided to cast to save money, forget it. You won't, you'll just shoot more.

This is the truth. :)

[Rcmaveric]

Welcome aboard. Others hit the nail on the head. You will do well to get a lead thermometer. That way if you have mold fill out problems or something you will have a known that you can control and adjust. The dull grey ones are from the mold temp too high, use a damp sponge or a second mold in rotation. It takes a while to learn a rhythm that matches the molds. Even when you learned it takes a few cast to set into it. The dull grey ones don't look pretty but the will still shoot just fine.

[copdills]

welcome to the silver stream , Thermometer is your friend

[mdi]

Temperature control can be tough, as mentioned above, Lee pots' control numbers are just for reference, don't mean much. I cast for many years without a thermometer, and even though I have one now, I rarely use it. I preheat the mold on a hot pate and make sure the pot has had enough time to thoroughly heat the alloy (don't get in a hurry). There isn't anything really wrong with either frosty or shiny bullets but shiny ones indicate cool alloy and fillout may be a problem.

I've been told "the only way to learn to cast bullets, is to cast bullets". Practice, practice, practice. One really nice thing about casting bullets is you can just drop the bad ones back into the pot any you are the only one to know how many culls you've had...:bigsmyl2:

[William Yanda]

Simplest test for what kind of lead is thumbnail test, is it scratched by yours? RCBS defines the mold used. Search out pencil test for using artist's pencils to determine hardness. Other devices are available. Lots of data here to investigate.

[marek313]

Thats not bad at all for first cast but yes your question revolves around temperature. Top row is frosty from running little hot and bottom row was with alloy little bit too cold.
You want to be somewhere in between those two temperatures. Shiny is fine but your bottom row especially boolits 1 and 3 from the left have rounded bands. You'd want nice square bands to seal that boolit correctly and not allow any gas cutting.
You dont need thermometer or PID controllers to achieve that neither. I understand you have more control and better consistancy in the long run but I build PID and I found that I'm not using it at all. I dont hunt with my cast ammo so I dont need supreme accuracy with these bullets.
Here is what I do when I cast. I also use Lee 4/20 pot and I start at 9 until my alloy and mold are up to temp. Then I continue to cast adding sprues back in until I see frosting then I start turning it down about half a number. Once your boolits lose the frost or get shiny stop turning it down and continue to cast. This is where you want to be between frosty and shiny happy right in the middle. As you empty the pot temp will rise again so continue to cast until you find frosty ones again or pot runs out. Rinse and repeat.

For some reason I love casting as I find it very relaxing and I'm sure you'll get hooked too. Its the easiest thing to master as your not wasting any materials other then some electricity but thats not much so cast , cast and cast some more. You'll get it just practice.

[Yodogsandman]

Welcome to the site, Md2hunt! Lot's of good advise is given above. I'll try to add some more nuggets.

Crank up that pot to the highest setting. Fill and dump that mold as fast as you can and don't look at your boolits until you notice that they are fully covered in frost. Leave a big sprue puddle while doing it. Once you notice the frosting on your boolits, you can slow your cadence and start looking at the boolits. If the edges are rounded and whitish on your lube grooves and still frosted, turn the heat down a little. Heat is your friend. Boolits frosting over means you are right at the right temperature. Both the alloy and your mold need to be at the right temperature.

The Lee #20 pot has an adjustment for the amount of alloy coming out of the spout. Adjust it so that the stream is almost causing a rooster tail back out of the fill hole when you fill the cavity. The faster the cavity is filled, within safety and reason, the better.

Be sure to pour a big sprue puddle on top of your sprue plate. This will heat up your sprue plate and prevent rounded bases. It also provides the cavity a sort of molten reservoir to draw on for when the alloy cools and shrinks. The sprue plate needs to be adjusted so that it just slides off by itself when tilted all the way to the side. Too tight of a sprue plate will also cause rounded bases from not allowing the mold to vent.

Your sprue puddle should frost over in 5 or 6 seconds. Then, after a few seconds more, the sprue plate should be moved over to cut the sprue base. Some use a gloved hand and some use a whacking stick (mold mallet). The timing will depend on whether the sprue cuts clean, will rip out a part or show a raised cut. Learn the amount of waiting time (in seconds) to cut the sprue off to get nice, clean cut offs.

A PID temperature controller, a hot plate or a thermometer are all really nice to have and will help your casting a lot but, aren't really needed just to get started making great boolits.

[lightman]

Welcome Aboard! Those are pretty good for a first effort. The shiney ones are from the mold or alloy not being hot enough and they are not completely filled out. The dull ones are frosted from being a little too hot but are well filled out. I personally would cull the shiney ones and load the frosted ones. Your lead could be about any alloy. The RCBS just means that it was cast in an RCBS ingot mold. There are several ways to check hardness. Trying to score it with your thumb nail can give you an idea.

[Walter Laich]

a thermometer or PID will go along way to help you.

is there someone in your area that can mentor you? A few hours with them are worth more than 10,000 emails and forum replies. You don't give you location. We might be able to steer you towards someone in your area

[RogerDat]

Since temp will vary as lead is cast from the pot I won't disagree that this could explain the basic difference which does appear to be a hot or cold cast as already described. I would also look to your casting pace. And where you were in the casting process. Mold might have been cooler to start, then bullets changed as mold heated up. Or as you got more comfortable you started going a bit faster which leads to a hotter mold. Or were stopped examining bullets once you saw good ones coming out and that leads to faster casting yielding a hotter mold.

Been my own experience that I'm more likely to be a variable than the pot of lead once it hits the operating temperature. My opinion frost (hot) is better is better than shiny (cold) because the colder mold tends to not drop as sharp edged and crisply defined bullets. The stock advice I got was cast till they get frosty then back off temp just a small amount, semi-frosty being the intended outcome.

I find a thermometer useful. This one will generally be less expensive than "reloading branded" ones. Same range of temperature coverage. https://www.amazon.com/Tel-Tru-LT225R-replacement-thermometer-degrees/dp/B0055777EU

Location can be entered it your profile. Most use a sort of general area or compass direction from nearest large town. Northern Michigan, or Lansing area rather than a specific town but it does help you connect up with people in your area via private messages.

[Md2hunt]

Thank you so much for the info. I can't tell if the lead I have is a mix of alloy/lead. I'll dial it down a bit and try again.

[Md2hunt]

What an overwhelming number of responses and all I can say is that I have read every one of your comments and really appreciate the help. Thank you so much for the advice.

I will start watching temp, how quickly I am filling the mold and my timing in between bullets.

I picked up the pot at a yard sale on a deal a few weeks ago and wanted to see if I can do this. I have been collecting lead ingots for the last couple of years and have about 150lbs. The pot I bought has a scoop rather than a dump. I've seen the Lee pot with the bottom fill - would that be a better pot? My old man who is a blacksmith guy says that dross forms on the top of molten lead like an impurity clinker in steel. Do you ever scoop and toss this or do you not worry about it.

So many questions but I will check out the links you all provided and do some reading up.

Again, thank you all for the advice.

[Grmps]

With a bottom pour pot, you don't have to worry about the dross on top since the lead comes out the bottom.

There are members here that swear by the dipper method, in dipping you need to keep the top clean.

Both work, I find bottom pour more efficient.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

also, make sure your sprue plate swings freely, this gives the air in the mold a way to escape, and will help with the rounded edges, I just had that problem with a new noe, it was mainly with the rear cavity. some molds you can get away with having the sprue plate a bit tighter, which helps to keep it in place. each one is different. I aslo like my boolits to be a bit frosty, but not as frosty as yours! but you did a great job for your first time! makes sure you pre heat your mold well, I dip the front of mine in the lead until the lead doesn't stick when you pull it out. also I usually just ill the mold and dump it right back in the first 2-3 times to heat it up more evenly, then I start casting. these guys are right, the heat dial numbers don't mean much. I run it full on til its melted, then back it down to a bit below half, and as it empties, you will need to back it off more, since there is less lead to heat. you might also add a little bit of tin, 2-4 ounces per pot or maybe 1-2% in weight will also help to fill out and make those edges nice and square. don't worry! you will be a old pro in no time! ps- a dial thermometer helps, I like to cast at 750, I just check every once in a while.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I like to look at the base of the boolits and make sure I have a nice square edge. A little frost is ok if that's where you get the best fill out. Some guys use a small manicurists fan to cool the sprue faster and keep the mold from getting too hot. The longer the boolits are in the mold the more it heats up. Pausing for 10 or 15 seconds after you drop your boolits before closing your mold up can help keep your mold from getting too hot.

[Md2hunt]

Thanks. Good advice here. Will cast more this weekend and try some different methods and see what kind of consistency I achieve.

And Grmps, I actually started so I can shoot more, lol!

[Md2hunt]

Lubing before loading. Any preferences for brand or type of lube?

Also the sprue plate screw on my new mold won’t budge. Feels like I’ll strip the screw head if I try to force it. I could put in a vice but didn’t want to mar or hurt the aluminum.

[ChuckO]

If it is a relatively new Lee mold the screw might be left handed. Other molds sometimes have a locking screw to keep the sprue plate pivot tight.

[Bullwolf]

Newer Lee moulds, with a Left Hand threaded sprue plate screw are marked LH on the mould.

Like this Dual Cavity Lee (LH) 358-125-RF mould, in the attached image below.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=122187&d=1416370345

Which definitely has a Left Hand threaded sprue plate screw.


- Bullwolf

[Echo]

I guess I differ some with some others - I try to keep a fairly full pot when I cast, and return the sprues as soon as they are knocked off. I believe that minimizes temperature fluctuations, and also keeps a fairly constant head-pressure. Cast the mold (2-, 3-,4-,6-) full, let the sprue harden, give it a couple more seconds, knock it off, inspect the bases, dump the boolits on the old towel, snap the sprue plate back where it belongs, cast full again, pick up old sprue & return to pot, push fresh boolits into pile, repeat. When alloy level goes down some, place new ingot, that has been warming on lip of furnace, into melt, place fresh ingot on lip, and press on.

[blue32]

I can run frosted bullets all day in a steel mold as the temperature stays within a relatively stable range. When I tried it with an aluminum mold they got too hot and deformed. For the Lee pot with aluminum molds, try between the 7 and the next hash mark, which would be (7.25).

[Md2hunt]

Hey guys, thank you for the info. I’ll definitely try some different combinations this weekend. I’ll also try keeping a full pot and see how that works.

[Rcmaveric]

Lubing before loading. Any preferences for brand or type of lube?.

That could start a debate. I make my own. For pistols about anything will work. Bens red works great for riffles. Even tumble lubing works good with BLL or 45/45/10. Check the lube stickies. Cant go wrong with any of the manufactured ones either. I cant recommed a ready made lube because i dont use them. Who doent like playing chemist. The taste of success is very rewarding.

[Md2hunt]

That could start a debate. I make my own. For pistols about anything will work. Bens red works great for riffles. Even tumble lubing works good with BLL or 45/45/10. Check the lube stickies. Cant go wrong with any of the manufactured ones either. I cant recommed a ready made lube because i dont use them. Who doent like playing chemist. The taste of success is very rewarding.

thanks

[gregtu]

For the Lee pot with aluminum molds, try between the 7 and the next hash mark, which would be (7.25).

These pots must be all over the place. If I put mine at 7, it is way too hot. Mine will hold at about 750F at 4+. I've almost completed my PID unit, so I'm looking forward to not having to keep adjusting. (Maybe I'm assuming too much though.)

[Md2hunt]

a thermometer or PID will go along way to help you.

is there someone in your area that can mentor you? A few hours with them are worth more than 10,000 emails and forum replies. You don't give you location. We might be able to steer you towards someone in your area

I'm in Mesa, AZ if you know someone in the area here. I'd definitely go for a little mentoring.
Thanks

[Md2hunt]

Is a resizer an absolute must use or am I safe to load without? I’ve checked several and they measurement differs. I cast .452 - 200gr and the measure from .452 to .453.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Is a resizer an absolute must use or am I safe to load without? I’ve checked several and they measurement differs. I cast .452 - 200gr and the measure from .452 to .453.
Safe? yes, if the loaded rounds chamber reliably.

Uniformity is something to strive for with any reloaded ammo. Unsized boolits aren't usually uniform...while you can measure a handfull that vary .001 there is no doubt there will be a few outliers in there that could cause a problem.

With that said, from my 50+ molds, I do load 2 different ones TL'd and no sizing for plinkers in 45 colt and 44 spl. But I will pay close attention when seating them, if one is more difficult to seat than others, I will reject it.

[Md2hunt]

[QUOTE=JonB_in_Glencoe;4334824]Safe? yes, if the loaded rounds chamber reliably.

Uniformity is something to strive for with any reloaded ammo. Unsized boolits aren't usually uniform...while you can measure a handfull that vary .001 there is no doubt there will be a few outliers in there that could cause a problem.

With that said, from my 50+ molds, I do load 2 different ones TL'd and no sizing for plinkers in 45 colt and 44 spl. But I will pay close attention when seating them, if one is more difficult to seat than others, I will reject it

I appreciate the response and want to do it right so I ordered a Lee resizer. Fairly inexpensive considering the cost of casting.
Thanks!

[Bazoo]

Welcome to the forum. Not bad for the first go round. Its not the temperature of your lead so much, as the temperature of the mould that makes the bullets dull, and then frosty. The lead temperature effects mould temperature less than the speed at which you refill the mould. I like my bullets dull but not frosty. I shoot the frosty ones too, but it means im working too fast and getting my mould too hot. Note how the shiney bullets in your pic show that the mould was not up to temperature because the bullets are rounded at the driving bands, and the frosty bullets show a crisp casting.

I always knock the sprues off into a little pan I use, and every other or third cast or so I return them by dumping the pan back into the pot, along with any bullets that are obviously bad.

Here is a PDF of the lyman cast bullet handbook 3rd edition.

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Bullet%20Casting/Lyman%20Cast%20Bullet%20Handbook%20-%203rd%20Edition%20-%201980%20-%20Reduce.pdf

And here is some info that is very useful.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[Md2hunt]

Welcome to the forum. Not bad for the first go round. Its not the temperature of your lead so much, as the temperature of the mould that makes the bullets dull, and then frosty. The lead temperature effects mould temperature less than the speed at which you refill the mould. I like my bullets dull but not frosty. I shoot the frosty ones too, but it means im working too fast and getting my mould too hot. Note how the shiney bullets in your pic show that the mould was not up to temperature because the bullets are rounded at the driving bands, and the frosty bullets show a crisp casting.

I always knock the sprues off into a little pan I use, and every other or third cast or so I return them by dumping the pan back into the pot, along with any bullets that are obviously bad.

Here is a PDF of the lyman cast bullet handbook 3rd edition.

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Bullet%20Casting/Lyman%20Cast%20Bullet%20Handbook%20-%203rd%20Edition%20-%201980%20-%20Reduce.pdf

And here is some info that is very useful.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Thank you for the comments!

[RogerDat]

With a bottom pour pot, you don't have to worry about the dross on top since the lead comes out the bottom.

There are members here that swear by the dipper method, in dipping you need to keep the top clean.

Both work, I find bottom pour more efficient.

Wax will help drive the dross back into the melt. Bees wax works best but old garage sale candles or paraffin will also work. I use a bent thrift store soup spoon to scoop dross from pot. Handle is bent and spoon has sort of a spout bent in the end. Paint stir stick can also be used to stir up impurities and to crush lead out of dross against the side of the casting pot. The wood will scorch and become charcoal but that is ok.

With the occasional bead of wax the dross should be mostly ash so just scape it to one side with paint stir stick, crush against side then skim off with the soup or table spoon.

Bottom pour is faster fill, especially useful if you have 6 cavity mold or two molds you are casting with. And the dross as pointed out floats on molten lead so less chance of it getting into your molds. Ladle allows you to tip the mold up onto the spout of the ladle then turn the two together to pour, provides "pressure casting" since the lead is fed into the mold under a bit of pressure. Or pouring at an angle to "swirl" into the mold, which is not commonly needed but these slightly different pours can be just the trick for some molds. Lyman Little Dipper is an especially good casting ladle.

[D Crockett]

[QUOTE=JonB_in_Glencoe;4334824]Safe? yes, if the loaded rounds chamber reliably.

Uniformity is something to strive for with any reloaded ammo. Unsized boolits aren't usually uniform...while you can measure a handfull that vary .001 there is no doubt there will be a few outliers in there that could cause a problem.

With that said, from my 50+ molds, I do load 2 different ones TL'd and no sizing for plinkers in 45 colt and 44 spl. But I will pay close attention when seating them, if one is more difficult to seat than others, I will reject it

I appreciate the response and want to do it right so I ordered a Lee resizer. Fairly inexpensive considering the cost of casting.
Thanks!I do not want to scare you off but if you think you will save money by casting you won't in 10 years from now if you stay at it you will have all kinds of neat stuff when I started I had a pot and a black powder mold made and shot lots of those bullets now I have more equipment than I know what to do with some of it I will never use again some of it I use all the time but I would not change a thing it has kept me in a lot of bullets and out of the bars the wife calls me a casting junkie my drug of choice is lead and the use of it so keep at it and good luck with your new hobby and happy casting D Crockett

[Bazoo]

Glad It was appreciated.

Fluxing is to remove contaminates in the lead and to remix the dross back into the lead. That dross is basically where the lead alloy oxides on the surface. Notice in your picture, top row 4th bullet, that little hole in the tip of the bullet. Thats an inclusion. Its a fancy word that means basically you got dirt in your bullet. Either a spec of rust, or some oxide or something else contaminating the lead. To remove the contaminates you flux and scrape the sides and bottom of your pot with an old spoon. Also, when your fluxing, run your lead ladle into the lead while it has flux in it, and it'll clean all the contaminates off that too. Got to make sure your ladle is up to temperature though or everything will stick to it.

Once you got the lead cleaned of contaminates, you can ignore the dross a while while you're casting until it gets bad enough that it causes a problem or gets too annoying, you'll know when. I've fluxed with sawdust, and with both beeswax or candle wax. I dont see much difference between the 2 waxes, except the beeswax dont burst into flames as often. No biggie either way. If you dont use enough flux, the dross will form back almost immediately. Sawdust, for me at least, doesnt do as good except for removing contaminates.

A pea sized dab of wax aint enough for flux. Try a marble sized or large marble size and you'll have better results. I do at least.

You can go ahead and shoot the frosted bullets. The ones with imperfect driving bands and inclusions will work fine for plinking, but wont give good accuracy.

[Schreck5]

Simplest test for what kind of lead is thumbnail test, is it scratched by yours? RCBS defines the mold used. Search out pencil test for using artist's pencils to determine hardness. Other devices are available. Lots of data here to investigate.

+1 on the pencil test. With practice, it is surprising how accurate artist's pencils can be.

[RogerDat]

+1 on the pencil test. With practice, it is surprising how accurate artist's pencils can be. And if you use the art pencils on known lead you have benchmarks for future use. Same pencil as COWW lead cuts it then it is same hardness as COWW lead. Even if you don't know the exact alloy in the second sample you do know how hard it is. Good for a fast check of scrap lead.