Suppressors and the .223

[buckwheatpaul]

Good afternoon. I just got back from a gun show and discussed putting a suppressor on my .223 for hog control....seems like the critters are not going to the traps anymore....so a suppressor should allow me more shots and hopefully less hogs....I know the requirements and the price but does anyone have any experience with a suppressor and a .223?

Is there any commercial subsonic loads for .223?

Is there any suggestions for loads for a subsonic .223?

If there are no subsonic loads available how loud is the .223 with standard load?

Would also like your thoughts about bullets.

Cast boolits are an option but even those loads are above 1050 fps hence the sonic boom.

Feel free to jump in and put your 2 cents worth in....even if not .223.

Thanks. Paul

[Mica_Hiebert]

I suggest you buy a 30 cal suppressor and a thread adapter, you will not notice a difference in noise and will leave you with more caliber options. You can load with trail boss powder to get the desired sub sonic velocity.

[Mica_Hiebert]

Shooting hyper sonic ammo through a suppressor I like to compare to shooting 22 magnum with out a suppressor.

[Petrol & Powder]

Depends a lot on how quiet you want to be. Hypersonic .223 rounds fired through a suppressor will still result in the "crack" of the projectile breaking the sound barrier but it will reduce the bulk of muzzle blast which is where the real noise comes from. So it will be far from "quiet" but far better than no suppressor at all. LE units are equipping M4's with suppressors because of that extreme blast & noise level (particularly if the weapon needs to be fired indoors). It will still be loud but not the extreme loud of a short barreled M4 in a confined space.

Now, if you really want to be quiet, you need a sub-sonic projectile and that's not going to be a .223 (or at least not an effective .223)
If you're giving up velocity of the projectile you should at least get some increased mass in the projectile as part of the deal.

Personally I would look for something slow and heavy, like a 44 Special fired from a bolt action with a suppressor. Like say a Ruger 77/44 and a 250-260 grain bullet travelling just under 1070 fps ? Yes, that is considerably more money than just putting a can on a AR-15 platform but it would ultimately be a quiet tool that was also very effective.

[Petrol & Powder]

And by the way, that figure of 1070 fps isn't set in stone. The speed of sound in air is dependent on the temperature and pressure of the air. The colder the air is, the lower the velocity threshold will be when the projectile will break the sound barrier.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-speed-sound-d_603.html

[robg]

Suppressors /moderater take the harsh edge off a 223 full power load ,most hunters use them over here without subsonic loads .

[Petrol & Powder]

In the U.S.A. a suppressor requires a $200 (about 143 Pounds) tax stamp, plus a lot of paperwork, plus the cost of the suppressor itself.
What are the requirements in the UK?

[Larry Gibson]

A subsonic .223 is essentially a .22LR......are you hunting/shooting hogs with that?

Also a subsonic load in .223 will not function a standard gas gun such as an AR.

[Moonie]

As others have said, you will still have the sonic crack of the projectile being over the speed of sound. On the up side it is very hard to determine the direction of the shot because that is much louder than any noise from the firearm itself. The quarry may hear the bullet, they will not hear the shot, if that makes sense.

[jcren]

Check out this old thread.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?323456-Poor-man-s-Blackout-100gn-subsonic-223-Rem

[Ford SD]

Have you thought about 300 AAC Blackout

you can pick up a Ar upper
you can shoot sub sonic 200- 247g at 1000 fps

energy will be way above what a sup sonic 223 will be

if you look at it this way

223 = 60g x 1000fps = 60,000

Jacketed 223 = 55g x 3000fps = 165,000 with


30cal 200g x 1000fps = 200,000

more than 3 times the energy of a sub sonic 223

30cal 247g x 1000fps = 247,000

more than 4 times the energy of a sub sonic 223

IF you go on line and search you can find videos of 300 blackout supressed and not-supressed to see them in action

[DrewSeeg]

I also agree with a 30 cal suppressor and 300 blkout subs for hogs but there is a 100 gr mold from NOE that would also work for 223 subs. From my tests 223 subs (62gr with hp38) are much quieter than my 300 blkout subs (230 lee with 1680/ cfeblk).

[Smoke4320]

Last i checked no one had been able to get the NOE 100 gr cast to shoot accurately.
Alao you would be well served with a 200-247 gr projectile out of a 300 blackout over a 65-75 gr 223 projectile both subsonic for hogs

[DrewSeeg]

Smoke ... Good to know ... I'll skip on that mold.

[JimB..]

I want to put a suppressor on a handi-rifle in 500 S&W magnum.

Lots of options in 30, 35 and 44, all better that .22.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup. I have a yankee hills suppressor for my ARs and they sound about like a 22 mag without a suppressor. As to sub sonic it depends. I had a group buy 105 grain mold and yes you could get it subsonic but I tried about everything to find a load that was subsonic and would still run the action. Many came close but none did it. then add to it that those long 100 gain 223 bullets just wouldn't stabilize even in a 1 in 7 twist at those low speeds so you would about end up with a 25 yard gun if you did get it to work and if that is the range your shooting at keep in mind that a 100 grain bullet at a 1000fps is not much of a big game load anyway. Its about the equivalent of a 32 mag out of a single six with a very small metplat. Another thing with a centerfire rifle compared to a 22lr or even a handgun suppressor is the center fire suppressors have to be made to take the pressures of a full power rifle load. that means they usually use heavier baffles and less of them so when I put my 223 suppressor on my 22lr and use sub sonic ammo its still a bit louder then my dedicated 22lr suppressor. Buying a bigger suppressor with adapters is make it even louder because theres bigger holes down through the middle for the larger caliber and gas under pressure is going to escape. I tried that using my 9mm can or 22lrs. It was even louder then my 223 can. So if you want quiet pig hunting in a AR get yourself a 300 blackout and a suppressor and you not only get quite but can about shoot cast at full power without the suppressor too and the major cost of reloading rifle ammo is like we all know the bullet. Another option would be a pistol caliber carbine with a suppressor. For the most part at least in my opinion cans on 223s are great if you have a defensive gun that might have to be shot indoors or without hearing protection or you live a couple miles from your neighbor and don't want to bother them or let them know your shooting. to be honest I wish I wouldn't have wasted the money on that suppressor.
Shooting hyper sonic ammo through a suppressor I like to compare to shooting 22 magnum with out a suppressor.

[mpkunz]

Suppressed load for a .223 ? You mean standard velocity 22LR ? :o)

[buckwheatpaul]

Guys, thanks for the suggestions...I was originally talking to the dealer about a 308 or a 300 BlackOut but the suppressor vendor suggested .223. He also suggested a 30 caliber 8" can as I could use it up to 300 Win. Mag. When I originally posted I also failed to mention that I hate the AR platform...I am going to use a bolt gun. Keep the suggestions coming.....I believe that 300BO would be a good choice as two of my friends use the MICRO 300 BO with suppressors and night scopes and are extremely happy with the results. Thanks for your comments...now it is on to a new gun as well.....

[Smoke4320]

For a reasonable priced excellent shooting bolt 300 blackout look at the Ruger American ranch
Full receiver scope rail. Pillar bedded, barrel already threaded for 5/8 x 24. newest model uses AR mags older model uses a ruger plastic mag

[Tackleberry41]

I have never seen a subsonic 223 load sold. And really was not that easy to come up with. I tried the various recipes on the internet, bullseye, tightgroup, or trailboss. All gave terrible results, its was the wide variations in velocity. One shot might be fine at 1050fps, the next barely makes it out of the barrel. Forget it with jacketed.

I finally resorted to drilling the flash holes, made a world of difference. Used solo1000, something i have a pile of and a cast 80gr bullet. Very consistent velocity, and pretty accurate. But never cycle a weapon, single shot only.

[farmerjim]

Hogs have very good hearing. All the hog hunters I know around here have quit using sub sonic loads. Most have gone to max 308 loads.

[UKShootist]

In the UK a suppressor for a firearm is treated as a firearm for licensing purposes. Once you have a firearms licence you have to show good reason to own a particular firearm. While it used to be difficult it is now more or less accepted that Health and Safety is a good reason for hearing protection. I have sound moderators for two .308 rifles, a .223 rifle, and a few .22 rimfire, and a .17HMR.

The benefits are that they muffle the cartridge bang, but obviously there is still a considerable crack from the bullet being supersonic. The benefit in the field is that the quarry will hear the crack, but will be unable to determine where it can from. When I shoot a rabbit with a suppressed .22lr the noise from the shot, or the impact of the bullet will scatter any that are nearby. OTOH, I have shot five rabbits one after the other with a .17HMR because none of them bolted when I was shooting. I can only assume this was because they couldn't determine the direction of the threat. I don't see why this shouldn't apply to hogs just the same.

[Kestrel4k]

...I am going to use a bolt gun...
What bbl length are you going to use ?

[HollowPoint]

I use a 30 caliber suppressor with an adapter on my 223 and it works real well but, I just thought I'd ask; have you ever considered buying and using one of the latest offerings of PCP air rifles? Some of them come integrally suppressed already which makes them just as quiet -if not more so- than suppressing a 223. With some of the .22 calibers you can still cast your own ammo and ditto with the .25 calibers. Including an inexpensive hand pump the whole setup cost about the same as a good suppressor.

The Kral Puncher-Breaker bull pup comes to mind. I believe it's sold in 22 and 25 calibers. Both are super accurate and carry plenty of hog killing power out to fifty or sixty yards if the shooter does their part. If you have a little more expendable income there's a small bore dinosaur killer called the Huben Mk II. Both can be had with suppressors in place.

Some will argue that then you'll have to buy peripheral equipment like air tanks, gauges and hoses and such. All I use is a $35.00 hand pump I bought on ebay. I don't shoot enough to justify laying out that kind of cash for all that other stuff. The PCPs with regulated tanks can give upwards to sixty shots before they need to be topped off again.

I just thought I'd ask.

HollowPoint

[JimB..]

If sticking with a bolt gun, and assuming that you’re good with loading your own, then forget 300blk and get a 308 that you like and load for the application. Try suppressed subs, if they don’t work try suppressed supers. Maybe mix it up every week to keep them guessing.

Don’t get me wrong, I like the 300blk, but it doesn’t do anything that you can’t do with 308.

[popper]

BWPaul, don't know where you're at but friend (Abilene) went out last weekend, got one trapped but saw 70 or so @ 400 around the feeder - said a couple were over 300#. He didn't say if 223 or 7mag. You try one shot and they scatter after the first hit - from the sound of the hit or squeal. Even in the NV vids, they scatter - might mill around for a while. Good reason for an autoloader. Lots of people using the BO with 125gr tssx or black tip at full tilt. I use a 145gr cast that easily goes 2k fps so decent range. Interesting, guy at range had the ATN NV he was trying to sight for his 6.5 - couldn't see the target right in daylight.

[buckwheatpaul]

What bbl length are you going to use ?

I am looking at the Ranch by Ruger...bbl is 16" and has a magazine if I remember right.....this setup would be dedicated to hog control

I have used a 308 or 223 with a 2.5 x 10 Leupold scope and a green stick light and shot hogs at night to 125yds but the sound only allows one hog per hunting trip......

The seminars that I have gone to use suppressors and tell you to start with the last hog in the line, if they are moving and work forward....if there is no squeal then you can work toward the front of the sounder.......one squeal = hog stampede!

[dk17hmr]

Have you thought about 300 AAC Blackout

you can pick up a Ar upper
you can shoot sub sonic 200- 247g at 1000 fps

energy will be way above what a sup sonic 223 will be

if you look at it this way

223 = 60g x 1000fps = 60,000

Jacketed 223 = 55g x 3000fps = 165,000 with


30cal 200g x 1000fps = 200,000

more than 3 times the energy of a sub sonic 223

30cal 247g x 1000fps = 247,000

more than 4 times the energy of a sub sonic 223

IF you go on line and search you can find videos of 300 blackout supressed and not-supressed to see them in action

That's not how energy works.

Grains x speed x speed / 450400 = energy

Buy at least a 30 caliber can unless you want to start collecting them. Liberty Mystic X looks like a great multi use can. I have a liberty cosmic in jail right now, a 30 caliber thunder beast, and an AAC rimfire can. 30 caliber is very useable on smaller calibers.

[rockrat]

dk17hmr is correct for the energy calculations (mass x velocity squared divided by 450400) and the mass x velocity equation is for momentum

[WJP]

He was probably trying to sell you a 223 because he needs to move them. Most people nowadays don't run 223 cans. I would go 30 cal and run it on both. I believe extreme shock made some 100 gr subs a while back. I run a 223 only because it is better than nothing. However 300 and 308 is pleasant and enjoyable to shoot. If I didn't go 30 cal I would run a 9mm upper suppressed. You would be better served running a 22 suppressed than a 223 fmj sub. Good luck with your purchase.

[buckwheatpaul]

Guys, you cant believe how much I appreciate your input....in fact I was able to find suppressed 308 ammo and will have my 308 threaded......my wife cant believe that I will pass on another rifle....but the truth is I like the old calibers and dont want to reload for another caliber....the trick will be to see how much I will have to adjust my scope when I go from 150 gr to the suppressed load....Paul

[WJP]

It will be quite a bit. Also before you thread your barrel I would check the twist. You may still end up with a new rifle. I'll need to double check but if you are talking the 175 gr boat tail subs in a 1:12 they work but are on the low end of stability. Don't want to see you with a baffle strike.

[dk17hmr]

Suppressed 308 ammo?

I shoot full power 178gr @ 2775fps from my 308 with the can, the super sonic crank doesn't seem to bother the animals I hunt it's more of the bullet impact.

[JimB..]

What WJP said, I suggest that you look for a 1:10 barrel.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I have shot a lot of foxes using a suppressor - several times two or more in a row. The trick is to start with the one farthest away if there's more than one target, as the sound of impact will often send the others running towards you. Forget subsonic loads - hogs and foxes have excellent hearing and will hear you anyway - they will hear you working the bolt a hundred yards away if you're not careful.

[ATCDoktor]

Here’s a video of me shooting a couple of Jackrabbits with a suppressed 17 Hornet.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RME1NmPmEMo

If you watch the video real close you will see that the “far” rabbit doesn’t flinch at the sound of the rifle shot, he flinches at the sound of the bullet hitting the “near” rabbit.

Distances to the rabbits was 200 and 225 yards respectively.

Ammo was Hornady factory 20 grain “ballistic tip” bullets.

The suppressor was a Gemtech Titanium Trek.

The rifle was a Ruger model 77/17 in 17 Hornet (pictured below)

https://s20.postimg.org/vqdgyfct9/83_A11_FBE-_BBDB-4387-_ACFD-_D10_DE6_DB2_D0_F.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[robg]

I use a 30 mod on my 223 works fine.

[JimB..]

A couple of you guys have mentioned the animals reacting to the impact rather than the shot. Isn’t it true that they would likely hear the impact and shot at about the same time given a supersonic round? The animal you shoot would never hear the shot as the bullet arrives before the sound, the animal standing next to the one you shot may hear the impact before they hear the shot, all just depends on distance.

[buckwheatpaul]

WJP and JimB.. got me to thinking and I called Ruger this morning....furnished the serial number and caliber and found out that my M77 was built in 1979 and has a 1:10" twist....so going forward with a 8" titanium can for my 308.....the dealer stated that the wait time is about 6 month now......looking forward to giving it a spin.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help.....Paul

[WJP]

Glad you found one you like. Be warned not to run it hot. Titanium is light but weakens with heat. So no quick mag dumps, bump fires, full auto, etc. I have a Ti can and love it for my bolt/hunting guns but it doesn't see much over 5-10 rounds in a row. Ti looses strength around 750 degrees I believe.

[Herb in Pa]

Glad you found one you like. Be warned not to run it hot. Titanium is light but weakens with heat. So no quick mag dumps, bump fires, full auto, etc. I have a Ti can and love it for my bolt/hunting guns but it doesn't see much over 5-10 rounds in a row. Ti looses strength around 750 degrees I believe.

I guess that's why the afterburner nozzles on F4's were made out of titanium................

[WJP]

https://www.amt-advanced-materials-technology.com/materials/titanium-high-temperature/

[Herb in Pa]

That little c behind the 600 stands for Centigrade not Fahrenheit......600 degrees Centigrade = 1112 degrees Fahrenheit. 30 years in the Hi Temp Steel industry[smilie=s:

[WJP]

I know what the little c is. I also know how hot they get after running them. One full auto mag dump on a 90 degree got a titanium can to 719 degrees. Most manufacturers rate them at semi, limited full auto for a reason. Glad you made it that long. Remember guys, do your own research there's a lot of experts out there.

[Herb in Pa]

Here's the reason..............

The natural properties of titanium allow for a superior strength to weight ratio compared to steel. It will also cool faster than steel and has a higher melting temperature. However, it's tolerance for heat also causes problems when used in suppressors. While the suppressor itself can operate just fine at very high temperatures, projectiles passing through it will not. Lead and jacketed bullets have the potential to fragment at such temperatures which can increase the possibility of baffle strikes. Therefore, most manufacturers suggest allowing titanium suppressors to cool after automatic fire or very quick semi-automatic fire.

[WJP]

Yes, those are some things to watch for as well as increased erosion due to high temps. Also I personally would not want to run one that hot. You could get close to it's failure rate within another mag or two if you're already over 700.

A good read about suppressors for those that want to read it.

http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=573

[Mica_Hiebert]

You'll be glad you went with titanium once you screw it on the end of your rifle, will take some getting used to as the balance point of your rifle moves very much towards the muzzle. You should never wear out a titanium can on a bolt rifle...

[Lloyd Smale]

also look at what the can your buying is rated for. example is some 223 rifle cans aren't rated for barrels shorter then 11 inch and some 30 cal cans aren't magnum rated. Some cans aren't full auto rated.
Glad you found one you like. Be warned not to run it hot. Titanium is light but weakens with heat. So no quick mag dumps, bump fires, full auto, etc. I have a Ti can and love it for my bolt/hunting guns but it doesn't see much over 5-10 rounds in a row. Ti looses strength around 750 degrees I believe.