54cal Lee REAL kicks like a mule!

[dsayer]

Hi all,

New guy here and very new to casting. I shoot a Cabela's/Investarms in 54cal with a 1:48 twist. My go-to load for deer has always been a 535 round ball, mink oiled patch, and 85gr of FFG Triple 7. For elk I used the Hornady Great Plains conical with the same powder charge with pretty good success.

I just got a 380gr Lee REAL mold and took my first batch to my indoor range last night to see how they flew. I used my same powder charge and the recoil nearly knocked me out of my chair!! I don't consider myself to be recoil sensitive but this was substantial and my shoulder is pretty beat up today. I also noticed that I seemed to have more slight hang fires than usual, which have always been exceedingly rare in my gun.

What do you all think? What sort of powder charges are folks using to push these REALs? I'm thinking the REAL maybe is engaging the rifling better and therefore sealing better and creating higher pressure than the Great Plains. REALs seem to load quite a bit easier than the Great Plains. Not sure what to make of the hang fires...

Appreciate any thoughts/advice on this.

[docone31]

The hang fires makes it sound like air space. Might be some crud preventing the casting to go all the way down.
For my .54s I use a patch crumpled up and placed under the casting. I also use 60gns rather than 80gns.

[stubshaft]

The Great Plains weigh 425 grs. I don't understand how the REAL could be recoiling harder.

[ShooterAZ]

I don't understand it either. Before I bought the Accurate 55-430M mold for my 54, my go to was the 425gr Hornady GP conical with 85 gr of Goex 2F. The GP shot very well, but the Accurate conical shoots even better with the same 85 gr charge. I have never used T7 in it, and likely never will. If you are going to stick with Pyrodex I'd go with Select instead of T7. That's just my $02. Don't wanna bust your stock.

[rudyc]

Back when I was shooting a T/C Hawken I tried some bullets. Buffalo and Lee, they both kicked WAY more than a round ball. The round ball has killed enough deer and bear for me to never even think of using bullets again. I think it has something to do with the shape / height of the comb on the stock?

[dsayer]

I don't understand it either. Before I bought the Accurate 55-430M mold for my 54, my go to was the 425gr Hornady GP conical with 85 gr of Goex 2F. The GP shot very well, but the Accurate conical shoots even better with the same 85 gr charge. I have never used T7 in it, and likely never will. If you are going to stick with Pyrodex I'd go with Select instead of T7. That's just my $02. Don't wanna bust your stock.

What's the reason for never using to T7? I've used it ever since I bought this smoke pole ~15 years ago and have had excellent results with it.

I was also extremely confused by the extra felt recoil vs. the Hornady GP. Still am I suppose...

[dsayer]

The hang fires makes it sound like air space. Might be some crud preventing the casting to go all the way down.
For my .54s I use a patch crumpled up and placed under the casting. I also use 60gns rather than 80gns.

Just crumpling a patch huh? Never heard of that I guess. Similar to a wad? The tech at Lee said I should load the REAL directly onto the powder.

[dsayer]

Back when I was shooting a T/C Hawken I tried some bullets. Buffalo and Lee, they both kicked WAY more than a round ball. The round ball has killed enough deer and bear for me to never even think of using bullets again. I think it has something to do with the shape / height of the comb on the stock?

For sure. I love love love shooting round balls and still use them exclusively for deer. I only use the GP when elk hunting and that is what I plan to use the REALs for this fall.

[ShooterAZ]

What's the reason for never using to T7? I've used it ever since I bought this smoke pole ~15 years ago and have had excellent results with it.

I was also extremely confused by the extra felt recoil vs. the Hornady GP. Still am I suppose...

I have never even tried T7. I guess the main reason I don't care to try it is that it has a reputation for leaving a nasty "crud ring'. Not saying it is doing that with your rifle, but it might be. I've had such good success with Goex 2F, that for me, there is no need to stop using it. I'm no purist mind you, but the real BP has outperformed any subs I have tried with one exception... Blackhorn 209. That is what I use in my T/C Inline and it is stellar for that usage (for me).

[dsayer]

I have never even tried T7. I guess the main reason I don't care to try it is that it has a reputation for leaving a nasty "crud ring'. Not saying it is doing that with your rifle, but it might be. I've had such good success with Goex 2F, that for me, there is no need to stop using it. I'm no purist mind you, but the real BP has outperformed any subs I have tried with one exception... Blackhorn 209. That is what I use in my T/C Inline and it is stellar for that usage (for me).

Interesting. Thanks. I'd never heard about T7 and a crud ring. I would also like to give Goex a try but haven't taken the leap. I was ready to try it a couple months ago because I knew my local Bass Pro had some in stock previously. When I went to buy some he said they were out of stock and didn't think they'd get it back. He told me they went out of business, which doesn't seem to be true...

[rfd]

there's a large weight difference 'tween a .535" lead ball @ 235 grains and a lead REAL @ 380 grains = more recoil. using T7 ain't helping, either ... try real bp 2f instead.

[winelover]

If you think the recoil is bad with a 380 grain REAL......don't even try the heavier (425 grain +) Maxi-ball.

If you use the BP substitutes, go with the finer granules, that will actually make it down to the nipple for more reliable ignition. I use Pyroxex "P" (pistol version) in all my BP firearms.......rifles and pistols. Just reduce the charge (volume) by 10 percent.

In my 54 caliber Renegade, I use 90 grains of Pyrodex "P" with either, round ball or Maxi. The Maxi will kick like a lightweight 12 gauge that is loaded with a rifled slug and hit like one, too.

Winelover

[rfd]

there's the bullet weight, and then there's the type of powder and it's charge weight, and then the reason for the load used. with a hefty payload weight, perhaps a lighter charge weight will both get the job done and be kinder in the matter of recoil. it will help to use real black powder instead of a smokeless substitute.

[Edward]

Just crumpling a patch huh? Never heard of that I guess. Similar to a wad? The tech at Lee said I should load the REAL directly onto the powder.

Would have to say you got bad advice ,want proof shoot same load and use a poly/card/or veg wad under the REAL and then same boolit without wad ! I also shoot Great Plains in 45-50 cal with wad 100 percent of the time . Just sayin like (Home Depot clerks) Techs are often wrong !

[richhodg66]

I used a short .54 barrel on my Hawken one year and killed a little buck with it. Used a TC Maxi Hunter mold and yes, it did indeed kick hard. I was young and dumb and probably used way more Pyrodex than was necessary, especially given the ranges of most shots during our early season here.

You shoot muzzle loaders on an indoor range? I hate indoor ranges with anything, but I'd think with a muzzle loader, you wouldn't be able to see after a couple of shots.

[dsayer]

rfd and winelover
Thanks for the replies and I may try some of your suggestions RE: powder types and loads, but I wasn't comparing the recoil of the REAL to my round balls but rather to the Hornady GPs, which are heavier than the REAL. That's the source of my confusion. I've been shooting the Hornady GPs for years and shot the T/C Maxi Balls prior to that before they stopped making them in the factory (I still have a couple boxes actually). I've used nothing but an 85gr load of T7 for at least a decade.

Possible reasons I can come up with were:
1) Better engagement of the rifling in REALs vs. GPs causing greater pressure.
2) The slight hang fire causing me let up a bit after pulling the trigger and getting a harder slap.

Thanks again for all the replies everyone!

[dsayer]

I used a short .54 barrel on my Hawken one year and killed a little buck with it. Used a TC Maxi Hunter mold and yes, it did indeed kick hard. I was young and dumb and probably used way more Pyrodex than was necessary, especially given the ranges of most shots during our early season here.

You shoot muzzle loaders on an indoor range? I hate indoor ranges with anything, but I'd think with a muzzle loader, you wouldn't be able to see after a couple of shots.

The indoor range has a great ventilation system. My smoke is completely cleared in just a couple seconds.

[Mr Peabody]

I've used the same rifle as you for a few hunts back in the 80's with the T/C Maxi, it kicks! The stock finally split in the wrist right behind the tang and I sold it. A round Ball in that rifle is going to kill any animal you hit properly; be happy with it. imho

[dsayer]

Would have to say you got bad advice ,want proof shoot same load and use a poly/card/or veg wad under the REAL and then same boolit without wad ! I also shoot Great Plains in 45-50 cal with wad 100 percent of the time . Just sayin like (Home Depot clerks) Techs are often wrong !

Cool. I'll order some wads today from Track and give them a try.
Thanks!

[mooman76]

The slight hang fire causing me let up a bit after pulling the trigger and getting a harder slap.



This is what I was thinking. You are shooting a good stout load though. 85g or 777 is the approximate equivalent to 100g of regular powder. Also maybe you were holding your rifle slightly different. You might want to try BlackMZ. I haven't tried it yet but hear good things about it.

[dsayer]

This is what I was thinking. You are shooting a good stout load though. 85g or 777 is the approximate equivalent to 100g of regular powder. Also maybe you were holding your rifle slightly different. You might want to try BlackMZ. I haven't tried it yet but hear good things about it.

So, solve the hang fire problem first, which is the bigger issue anyway obviously. This was really frustrating for me because hang fires have always been very very rare in this rifle with round balls, GPs, and Maxi Balls. I'll do some experimenting either tomorrow or next week. I may also check out the Black MZ. Thanks!

[kaiser]

dsayer - I use Triple 7 FFFg in an Encore and have also encountered the "crude ring", as well as hard to seat conicals after the 3rd shot. The Encore is easier to clean from the "breech end" than most "traditionals". I had a .54 Renegade that I used black powder, then Pyrodex RS and it kicked like a "mule", but hit like a "freight train". I had an occasional "hang fire" and tried a "hot shot" nipple - didn't cure it. The maker of Pyrodex, late Dan Pawlak, once stated that "if the bullet or ball was not seated firmly on the powder a hang fire could result". (I don't know if that was during development or manufacture of the final product.) I am convinced of this result after experiencing hang fires in muzzle loading shotguns, as well as several rifle calibers, especially with RS and FFg Pyrodex. I've found Pyrodex FFFg ignites somewhat better, but still use RS in the shotguns and seat charges "firmly". (Black powder is a bit hard to get in my area at this time, so I use it mostly in pistols.) As to the increase recoil, others have better suggestions than I can offer, but I've found reduced loads don't lessen the effect on live game. I've gone back to round balls on my "traditional" rifles and am enjoying shooting them more! Good luck.

[dsayer]

I've used the same rifle as you for a few hunts back in the 80's with the T/C Maxi, it kicks! The stock finally split in the wrist right behind the tang and I sold it. A round Ball in that rifle is going to kill any animal you hit properly; be happy with it. imho

You wouldn't have any qualms about throwing a round ball at an elk? Seems the opinions out there are mixed but seem skewed towards round balls not being a good idea for animals that large. I'm pretty gosh darn confident shooting out to 100 yards but would think that would result in questionable energy for an elk at that distance.
Shooting round balls is definitely my preference and my rifle is a tack driver with them.

[dsayer]

dsayer - I use Triple 7 FFFg in an Encore and have also encountered the "crude ring", as well as hard to seat conicals after the 3rd shot. The Encore is easier to clean from the "breech end" than most "traditionals". I had a .54 Renegade that I used black powder, then Pyrodex RS and it kicked like a "mule", but hit like a "freight train". I had an occasional "hang fire" and tried a "hot shot" nipple - didn't cure it. The maker of Pyrodex, late Dan Pawlak, once stated that "if the bullet or ball was not seated firmly on the powder a hang fire could result". (I don't know if that was during development or manufacture of the final product.) I am convinced of this result after experiencing hang fires in muzzle loading shotguns, as well as several rifle calibers, especially with RS and FFg Pyrodex. I've found Pyrodex FFFg ignites somewhat better, but still use RS in the shotguns and seat charges "firmly". (Black powder is a bit hard to get in my area at this time, so I use it mostly in pistols.) As to the increase recoil, others have better suggestions than I can offer, but I've found reduced loads don't lessen the effect on live game. I've gone back to round balls on my "traditional" rifles and am enjoying shooting them more! Good luck.

I had never heard of the (apparently) infamous crud ring with T7 until joining this site. Interesting...
I have some FFFG T7 that I use in my 54cal Plains Pistol and an old Sporterized Cabela's rifle. Would think I'd need to reduce the load pretty substantially if I were to try that. Probably like 65-70gr (volume from powder measure)?

[725]

I'm a pretty big fan of Triple Seven powder. Use it in all sorts of rifles. Sometimes, however, it's not the best stuff to use. Had a friend's T/C Omega that had some bore pitting. Polished it out to a mirror finish and went about seeking a good load for him. Spent hours shooting and cleaning with various boolits and load charges. Got good results, but just not quite good enough. Just for the sake of complete testing, I went for some Pyrodex (even though it's not my favorite) and actually, literally, I started shooting one hole groups. You just might have to expand your experimentation some to find that "best recipe". Good luck.

[mooman76]

A 54 RB will retain it's energy better out to 100y and should be plenty good for elk, but what you are comfortable with is really more important. Some people even hunt elk with a 50 but it would not be my first choice. I have heard of the crud ring quite abit but have never used 777 yet even though I bought some to try. Your hang fire may have been just a one time deal. If you are getting the ring, you should be able to feel it when you clean your gun. Hopefully next time out you will not have any issues.

[dsayer]

A 54 RB will retain it's energy better out to 100y and should be plenty good for elk, but what you are comfortable with is really more important. Some people even hunt elk with a 50 but it would not be my first choice. I have heard of the crud ring quite abit but have never used 777 yet even though I bought some to try. Your hang fire may have been just a one time deal. If you are getting the ring, you should be able to feel it when you clean your gun. Hopefully next time out you will not have any issues.

Would you cast the round ball with pure lead or harden it some? I've just used pure lead in my round balls.
Also hoping the hang fire issue the other night was just a fluke.

[ShooterAZ]

Your round balls should be cast from pure, or pure with just a touch of tin for fill-out if needed.

[dsayer]

Your round balls should be cast from pure, or pure with just a touch of tin for fill-out if needed.

Thanks! That's what I was thinking as well but was reading through an old thread about using hard cast balls. Was thinking maybe better penetration for elk.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?99688-Hard-Cast-Balls-For-Muzzleloading

[Edward]

Cool. I'll order some wads today from Track and give them a try.
Thanks!Give me ,(PM) an address and I will send you some of all 3 so you can see the difference .You can then instead of wads buy yourself a wad punch and they sell (T.O.W.) polywad/card /veg in .030- .060 thick sheets and make your own . Much better :bigsmyl2:

[dsayer]

Give me ,(PM) an address and I will send you some of all 3 so you can see the difference .You can then instead of wads buy yourself a wad punch and they sell (T.O.W.) polywad/card /veg in .030- .060 thick sheets and make your own . Much better :bigsmyl2:

Seriously?! This place is incredible. Thanks to everyone for the helpful info.
PM on the way.

[mooman76]

Some people like a little harder RB for more penetration. To each his own. I'd probably stick to soft or maybe just a touch of hardness.

[Fastleo]

I have a renegade that loves the 380gr real with 110gr of 2f. It does kick a bit. If you can’t handle that gun send it over to me.

[dsayer]

I have a renegade that loves the 380gr real with 110gr of 2f. It does kick a bit. If you can’t handle that gun send it over to me.

Uh, no...

[kaiser]

I wouldn't be too concerned about the published energy figures of round ball; for you can drive your 230gr much faster than any "conical" and it causes tremendous internal damage to an animal when hitting the "vitals". (Mountain men used them effectively on all manner of big game for a long time and many, if not most of their rifles, were under .54 caliber.) None of the big caliber "maxi-balls", Buffalo Bore, or REAL bullet have much of a ballistic coefficient to help the "looping" trajectory, so whatever you can use at the fastest velocity has the best chance of hitting where you aim, at least to 100 yards. I've found, at least with the Maxi-ball, that unless I hit bone on an animal the bullet does not seem to expand to any degree. Of course, .54 caliber is over 1/2" so expansion's not quite as important as with the smaller calibers. I also have read that it is not a good idea to use other than (near) pure lead bullets in muzzle loaders, especially in the early traditional models, because the barrel steel was designed for lower pressures. A harder cast bullet could cause extra stress and wear with long term use. I wouldn't worry about a pure lead round ball or conical not penetrating enough; I think that hardening the bullets would only make them into "solids" and having a projectile that expands, or "flattens" can "shorten the blood trail".

[mooman76]

Lee does make a 300gr REAL in 54 if you are needing less recoil.

[rodwha]

I just ran a .490” ball using 80 grns of 2F T7 with a BC of 0.069 and a 320 grn Lee REAL with the same powder charge and a BC of 0.189 and found that the ball had more of a rainbow trajectory both when sighted at 100 yds and 150 yds. The Lee REAL isn’t listed so I used the velocities listed for heavier bullets (1422, 1465, 1487, and 1526) and rounded it up to 1500 fps as it’s roughly 30 grns lighter.

These figures are for 900’ and with a 10 mph crosswind and have 25 yd increments.

Ball at 1842 fps and sighted at 100 yds and 150 yds:
1.1”, 2.0”, 1.8”, 0.0”, and -3.6” and sighted further 2.7”, 5.2”, 6.6”, 6.4”, 4.3”, 0.0”, and -6.8”

The wind drift is:
0.6”, 2.4”, 5.6”, 10.1”, 15.8”, 22.5”, and 30.1”

The REAL traveling at 1500 fps:
1.2”, 2.0”, 1.7”, 0.0” and -3.1” and further 2.5”, 4.7”, 5.6”, 5.3”, 3.5”, 0.0” and -5.2”

The wind drift is:
0.3”, 1.1”, 2.3”, 4.1”, 6.4”, 9.2”, and 12.4”

As we can see the REAL actually has a little less rainbow and certainly would be a better choice on a breezy day. And upping the powder charge for the ball really doesn’t change things much.

[rodwha]

I was thinking about this a little more and realized that my saying that upping the powder charge wouldn’t change things much and this is true of the downrange velocity/energy figures but I hadn’t really concerned myself much with the trajectory and wind drift so I ran the ball using 100 grns which gives a velocity of 1988 fps.

0.8”, 1.7”, 1.5”, 0.0”, and -3.2” and zeroed further it is 2.2”, 4.5”, 5.7”, 5.6”, 3.9”, 0.0”, and -6.2”

And the wind drift is:
0.6”, 2.2”, 5.1”, 9.5”, 15.1”, 21.8”, and 29.5”

So we see that another 20 grns of 2F got the shorter distance figures a little more slimmed as far as bullet rise but the drop was a hair more. And out there further it still has a more pronounced rainbow. And the wind drift didn’t change significantly.

[Mr Peabody]

You wouldn't have any qualms about throwing a round ball at an elk? Seems the opinions out there are mixed but seem skewed towards round balls not being a good idea for animals that large. I'm pretty gosh darn confident shooting out to 100 yards but would think that would result in questionable energy for an elk at that distance.
Shooting round balls is definitely my preference and my rifle is a tack driver with them.
I would use them, I only have 1 rifle that shoots them well enough for me to be confident with them. If you can hit what your aiming at they'll do the job.

[Geezer in NH]

Back off the powder IMHO

[rodwha]

I would use them, I only have 1 rifle that shoots them well enough for me to be confident with them. If you can hit what your aiming at they'll do the job.

Indeed. Many people on a traditional muzzleloader forum use a ball for elk and such out to 100 yds with a .54 and a couple even with a .50 but limit their shots to a bit closer.

[starmac]

I have the 54 investarms and encountered the same thing with hollow base boolits, it actually seemed liked it kicks TWICE. I figured I was leaveing an air spsce between the powder and the actual base of boolit, but didn't mess with it much trying to correct the problem, because it shot the 435 grain great plain boolits so good, there was not much room there for improvement.
I do not blame the gun or caliber, I think the whole problem was on me.

[dsayer]

I was thinking about this a little more and realized that my saying that upping the powder charge wouldn’t change things much and this is true of the downrange velocity/energy figures but I hadn’t really concerned myself much with the trajectory and wind drift so I ran the ball using 100 grns which gives a velocity of 1988 fps.

0.8”, 1.7”, 1.5”, 0.0”, and -3.2” and zeroed further it is 2.2”, 4.5”, 5.7”, 5.6”, 3.9”, 0.0”, and -6.2”

And the wind drift is:
0.6”, 2.2”, 5.1”, 9.5”, 15.1”, 21.8”, and 29.5”

So we see that another 20 grns of 2F got the shorter distance figures a little more slimmed as far as bullet rise but the drop was a hair more. And out there further it still has a more pronounced rainbow. And the wind drift didn’t change significantly.

Thanks for putting this together. Extremely helpful information. I'm heading to the range Wednesday night and will report back with results.

[dsayer]

Indeed. Many people on a traditional muzzleloader forum use a ball for elk and such out to 100 yds with a .54 and a couple even with a .50 but limit their shots to a bit closer.

I honestly can't remember the last time I shot at an animal that was more than 100 yards away. Probably at least 10 years...

[dsayer]

I have the 54 investarms and encountered the same thing with hollow base boolits, it actually seemed liked it kicks TWICE. I figured I was leaveing an air spsce between the powder and the actual base of boolit, but didn't mess with it much trying to correct the problem, because it shot the 435 grain great plain boolits so good, there was not much room there for improvement.
I do not blame the gun or caliber, I think the whole problem was on me.

I'm becoming more and more certain that I was flinching or letting up a little with the slight hang fires I was getting, which caused the butt to come off my shoulder a little. Didn't affect my accuracy much though. The REALs shot pretty well and I think I'll like them with a little more range time and tinkering with the load.

[Edward]

Seriously?! This place is incredible. Thanks to everyone for the helpful info.
PM on the way. In todays mail have fun /Ed

[dsayer]

In todays mail have fun /Ed

Thanks Ed! Will report back...

[KCSO]

Lets see you are shooting a load that approximates a 50-95 Winchester in a 7 1/2 pound rifle and it KICKS. No LIE! In a 9 pound musket 65 grains of FFG and 500 grain Minnie was a normal load and soldiers complained that that kicked. That is the penalty for doubling the projectile weight in a gun with a poorly designed stock. The solution is either to add weight and reshape the cheekpiece or drop the powder charge. The T/C while a well made rifle was not meant to compete with a Sharps in power. I have a buddy we all call B and B, for black and blue, he insists that his load of 100 grains of FFG and a maxi ball in his 50 is the load for a real man. Not for me anyway.

[dsayer]

Lets see you are shooting a load that approximates a 50-95 Winchester in a 7 1/2 pound rifle and it KICKS. No LIE! In a 9 pound musket 65 grains of FFG and 500 grain Minnie was a normal load and soldiers complained that that kicked. That is the penalty for doubling the projectile weight in a gun with a poorly designed stock. The solution is either to add weight and reshape the cheekpiece or drop the powder charge. The T/C while a well made rifle was not meant to compete with a Sharps in power. I have a buddy we all call B and B, for black and blue, he insists that his load of 100 grains of FFG and a maxi ball in his 50 is the load for a real man. Not for me anyway.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my OP because a number of folks have made comments like this. I've owned this gun for 15+ years and have shot T/C Maxi Balls (430gr), Hornady GCs (425gr), and round balls with the same 85gr powder charge of T7 and not experienced recoil like I did the other night with the 380gr REALs. That's why I posted about the recoil; why is my felt recoil higher compared to larger bullets with the same powder charge?

I also noted that I was having ignition issues and getting slight hang fires on most shots. After some good conversations on here and with the guys at Track, I think the recoil problem is simply that I was letting up a bit after pulling the trigger and getting a bigger slap when the full charge ignited. To address my ignition issue, I'm going to experiment with wads (thanks Ed!!) and with real black powder (recommendation from Track).

[taco650]

I have to agree that the recoil from real black is different than the subs. Seems to be more of a shove than a kick. If I could get real BP in my area at the store I would use it exclusively but I recently bought a can of Pyrodex RS because my old can of 3f Goex is getting low. Good luck in figuring out your situation!

[dsayer]

Update from the range this evening. These are only 25 yard groups (indoor range) from an informal rest. Edward graciously provided me with a handful of wads to test and the felt wads that I saturated with mink oil completely solved the hang fire issue. Recoil was obviously stiff but more like I had expected and experienced with other conicals in the past. I haven't ordered any BP yet so still shooting the FFG T7. Started with 75gr and the 3 shot group is so tight it looks like 2. I bumped up to 80gr, which raised my group a little but it wasn't quite as tight. Might have been me as I didn't feel great about the 3rd shot (left of bullseye) and think I yanked the trigger a bit.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the result and feel like I have a good starting point for longer ranges outside. Thanks again to everyone and especially Edward for shipping the wads. Guess I need to buy a punch and few yards of felt now!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180330/7f63b0ec43b16f3d088b5f4422ec34dd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180330/a78c7c4f8f5813e5800d2e5a48f1fa3e.jpg

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[FrontierMuzzleloading]

It will be interesting to see an actual group at 50- 75 and 100 yards.

[dsayer]

It will be interesting to see an actual group at 50- 75 and 100 yards.Well sure, obviously that will be the real test. However, I'm pretty stoked that I'm not getting a hang fire on half to two-thirds of my shots now with the felt wad and at least have a starting point.

The closest public outdoor range is about an hour drive, costs $20, and has the unfortunate limitation of only allowing shooting during daytime. Oh, and it's a complete madhouse... On the other hand, I'm a member of the indoor range 5 minutes from my door, I can help my wife get our 2.5 year old son to bed before I leave, and I only have to leave her with our 2 month daughter for an hour or so.

Plus, this was only my 3rd time shooting something I cast myself (2nd time with the REALs), so I just wanted to post a couple pics.

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[FrontierMuzzleloading]

trust me, the felt wad does not fix hang fires. Your nipple and how well it flows, does, affect hang fires.

i currently use pyrodex p and goex 2fg with the 250gr real and a lubed veg wad.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/18/40/56/85/100_0815.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/18/40/56/85/100_0818.jpg

[dsayer]

trust me, the felt wad does not fix hang fires. Your nipple and how well it flows, does, affect hang fires.

i currently use pyrodex p and goex 2fg with the 250gr real and a lubed veg wad.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/18/40/56/85/100_0815.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/18/40/56/85/100_0818.jpgOk...

Whether I "trust" a total stranger on a message board site or not, I'm just reporting my observations. Same gun, same batch of REALs, same nipple, same powder, same batch of CCI caps, and same range I had no hang fires last night on 10-12 shots whereas I was having them on every other shot or more last time.

You can continue to try to rain on my parade, but I'm not losing any sleep over it. In fact, I'm quite pleased with the result and will start shooting with a felt wad on top of my powder charge from now on.

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[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Juat giving you some advice bud. You dont want to run around saying that a wad fixed all your hang fires because then, you really might pick up a jack wagon along the way that wants to bust your chops lol. Dont be the autozone parts guy that sells you a k&n filter and tells you that you just gained 30 horse power.

[dsayer]

Juat giving you some advice bud. You dont want to run around saying that a wad fixed all your hang fires because then, you really might pick up a jack wagon along the way that wants to bust your chops lol. Dont be the autozone parts guy that sells you a k&n filter and tells you that you just gained 30 horse power.Well this thread has come off the rails... Thanks for your advice.

Could it be that some, unaccounted for variable is responsible for the change in my rifle's performance? Sure it could...

Here's what I know:
Last time out, REALs with no wad - hang fires
PRBs - no hang fires
REALs with no wad - hang fires

Last night, addition of a wad without changing anything else eliminated the hang fires.

I've given up on trying to explain why a muzzleloader does or does not behave a certain way. For the cost of a hollow punch set and some felt, I'll happily use a wad from now on when shooting REALs because it worked.

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[Edward]

Well this thread has come off the rails... Thanks for your advice.

Could it be that some, unaccounted for variable is responsible for the change in my rifle's performance? Sure it could...

Here's what I know:
Last time out, REALs with no wad - hang fires
PRBs - no hang fires
REALs with no wad - hang fires

Last night, addition of a wad without changing anything else eliminated the hang fires.

I've given up on trying to explain why a muzzleloader does or does not behave a certain way. For the cost of a hollow punch set and some felt, I'll happily use a wad from now on when shooting REALs because it worked.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk Not to worry he"s not picking on you (per say) he does this to everyone ,oh and do not dare mention TC verses Traditions /or CVA or Investarms/Lyman you will get the 100 yr flood :bigsmyl2:

[dsayer]

Not to worry he"s not picking on you (per say) he does this to everyone ,oh and do not dare mention TC verses Traditions /or CVA or Investarms/Lyman you will get the 100 yr flood :bigsmyl2:Haha! Noted. :)

Thanks again for the wads that didn't fix my problem but were strongly associated with an improvement in said problem.

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[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Uhhh this has nothing to do with brand. Just stating that a wad does not help hang fires and anyone with muzzleloader knowledge, knows that lol. WOW!

I use the wad simply because it helps seal the gasses a lot better and keeps the bullet flying tight.

Also I wasnt giving you a hard time from the beginning. But now that you've turned your nose into the air. I just might have to educate you.

[triggerhappy243]

Jon, you just started shooting the reals................ and you are coming off as an expert??????????????????????????????????? You really are poking for another fight. You need to sit on a chest of ice.

[triggerhappy243]

you can brag when you can do this at 100 yards.................. OK?

[dsayer]

you can brag when you can do this at 100 yards.................. OK?Nice group!
Can I ask what you're shooting?

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[waksupi]

Well this thread has come off the rails... Thanks for your advice.

Could it be that some, unaccounted for variable is responsible for the change in my rifle's performance? Sure it could...

Here's what I know:
Last time out, REALs with no wad - hang fires
PRBs - no hang fires
REALs with no wad - hang fires

Last night, addition of a wad without changing anything else eliminated the hang fires.

I've given up on trying to explain why a muzzleloader does or does not behave a certain way. For the cost of a hollow punch set and some felt, I'll happily use a wad from now on when shooting REALs because it worked.

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Hang fire is generally caused by breech fouling. Adding a wad would do nothing to cure this.

[dsayer]

Hang fire is generally caused by breech fouling. Adding a wad would do nothing to cure this.I'm aware of what would generally cause a hang fire, but none of those variables seem to explain the outcome. If it were breech fouling, that could explain the difference in performance between nights possibly due to a lazy cleaning job. However, that doesn't explain why I wouldn't have hang fires with the round balls and a return of hang fires with the REALs that same evening because I didn't do anything other than a quick swab between groups. I also haven't changed the nipple.

Maybe this is a possible explaination... Is it possible that the REALs (which are obviously more narrow at the base) were insufficiently compressing the powder resulting in a bit of air in the charge and inconsistent ignition? Might this have been exacerbated by the fact that these are from my first ever batch of REALs and maybe they didn't have a perfect fill out? Would the addition of a 14mm wad (slightly overbore) allow better compression of the charge and help with ignition? Maybe, I honestly don't know or care much. I'm just happy that, for whatever reason, I didn't have a hang fire problem the other night.

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[FrontierMuzzleloading]

you can brag when you can do this at 100 yards.................. OK?

been there done that, with patched round ball and open sights.

[triggerhappy243]

.................................................. ....with you r.e.a.l.?????????????????

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Just started with reals again after years buddy. I've been using powerbelts, thors, round balls for the last handful of years. Only going back with the real due to law changes made this year.

[triggerhappy243]

[QUOTE=dsayer;4333953]Nice group!
Can I ask what you're shooting?

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dsayer, i shot this using t/c 435 gr. maxi-balls lubed with t/c bore butter,
from a t/c 54 cal. renegade with open sights at 100 yards. I swab between every shot.

I got this barrel from sam koger several years ago. When you cast your r.e.a.l.'s the ribs need to fill out so they are sharp and not rounded off. The R.E.A.L. does have it's own wants and needs.

P.S. dont let frontier irritate you into a tinkling match, He is still peeved Colo. will not let him hunt ELK with round ball anymore unless he switches to 54 cal.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

a little annoyed yes, but over it.

I'd lube the top of the maxi ball, the top band is what engraves the rifling once you pop it into the muzzle. Lots of lead going to build up over time doing that.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

And by the way, a huge ignition help is the hot shot nipple or better, the knight redhot nipple.

This is the hot shot,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSCs3CAHBK8

Your average factory style nipple. Notice the little strings of sparks and how much the flash bounces around where as with the hot shot, you get one big ball of clean burning frame directly into the patent breech?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5OOvz28Stw

[dsayer]

[QUOTE=dsayer;4333953]Nice group!
Can I ask what you're shooting?

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dsayer, i shot this using t/c 435 gr. maxi-balls lubed with t/c bore butter,
from a t/c 54 cal. renegade with open sights at 100 yards. I swab between every shot.

I got this barrel from sam koger several years ago. When you cast your r.e.a.l.'s the ribs need to fill out so they are sharp and not rounded off. The R.E.A.L. does have it's own wants and needs.

P.S. dont let frontier irritate you into a tinkling match, He is still peeved Colo. will not let him hunt ELK with round ball anymore unless he switches to 54 cal.Cool. Thanks. My Dad and I used to shoot the 54cal Maxi Balls quite a bit before T/C quit making them for the masses. My little Sporterized rifle loves them and so does my Cabela's rifle with 1:48. I still have a couple boxes of Maxi Balls I bought from Cabela's that I'm clining to...

RE: the REALs. Yes, my second batch appeared to have filled out a bit better and the edges are sharper. I shot a few of them the other night also but was only comparing the first batch to limit the changed variables.

I was also going to ask about not lubing the top groove. Just something you figured out with your rifle over time?

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[triggerhappy243]

a little annoyed yes, but over it.

I'd lube the top of the maxi ball, the top band is what engraves the rifling once you pop it into the muzzle. Lots of lead going to build up over time doing that.

A LITTLE ANNOYED? REALLY? I saw all those posts on other forums. If you talked like that here, Admin would perma-ban you in a heart beat. You were throwing a childish temper tantrum. F-bombs included.

[triggerhappy243]

But back to the O.P. issue please.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

who are you? my momma? lol wow dude. And if i were throwing f bombs on any other forum than my own, they would have done a temp ban for language abuse.

I got my conical loads worked out now. A very big annoyance since i am a traditional hunter, but for getting an elk tag every 2- 3 years. Its a minor set back for me.

Im still challenging CPW on their rule change and just sent another off this morning challenging them on conical bullets that measure less than .500" being used for elk/moose.

So triggerhappy, can you explain how a Wad improves ignition? This seems to have been what spanned your temper tantrum as you'd say.

[dsayer]

And by the way, a huge ignition help is the hot shot nipple or better, the knight redhot nipple.

This is the hot shot,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSCs3CAHBK8

Your average factory style nipple. Notice the little strings of sparks and how much the flash bounces around where as with the hot shot, you get one big ball of clean burning frame directly into the patent breech?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5OOvz28StwCool videos. Thanks for posting. I used to use a hot shot nipple but was having trouble finding them to match the threads on my rifle. I've been using the standard ones from Lyman for a few years with no ignition problems save for the other night.

Real BP, a hotter nipple, clean breech, etc are all things I realize would help with ignition problems but they still don't explain why I was having the issue only with the REALs and only that night.

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[FrontierMuzzleloading]

no problem! I still have to shoot some more videos with the redhot nipple. That nipple may actually be your best bet for helping with the hang fires.

When I first tried T7 with the reals, hang fires were a bad constant problem. I found that the nipples flash hole had a hard crust filling it. So hard, that using my nipple pick was impossible if I failed to pick the nipple clean after each shot. Now that I pick the hole clean after each shot, ignition has improved greatly. Some times you will run across a weak cap that sounds less than a toy cap gun, thats another issue but rare. A clean flowing nipple makes a world of difference. By clean flowing, I mean by design. Some of these nipples have a squarish bottom which causes the cap flash to actually bounce back up into our face. Knight & the Hot Shot, and even the Spitfire, have a great design to them that allows the cap flash to travel smoothly and exit the flash hole cleanly.

Sorry about the earlier mixup, I was just trying to help you out. Been doing this for a long time and its a great passion of mine.

[triggerhappy243]

who are you? my momma? lol wow dude. And if i were throwing f bombs on any other forum than my own, they would have done a temp ban for language abuse.

I got my conical loads worked out now. A very big annoyance since i am a traditional hunter, but for getting an elk tag every 2- 3 years. Its a minor set back for me.

Im still challenging CPW on their rule change and just sent another off this morning challenging them on conical bullets that measure less than .500" being used for elk/moose.

So triggerhappy, can you explain how a Wad improves ignition? This seems to have been what spanned your temper tantrum as you'd say.
************************************************** ***************

Frontier............. I am not the one throwing a temper tantrum. And I never said................. or mentioned using a fiber or felt wad with anything I shoot. Especially with the r.e.a.l. You are the one who has come unglued...... NOT ME!

And in regard to CPW............... YOU ARE STILL P.O'ED get over it. You are not going to change anything. Trust Ma, I know how CPW thinks.

And FYI, in case you failed to recall, there are and were muzzle loaders way back around the civil war that used conicals.................. for battle as well as hunting. If all you want to do is hunt with round ball, great. I am not knocking you for that. I admire that philosophy. But what people here can not stand is your arrogant and demeaning, and condescending attitude.

And for the records, I was really hoping your shot at that elk was at 90 yards instead of a mere 30 yards. I would have a totally different opinion of you.

[dsayer]

no problem! I still have to shoot some more videos with the redhot nipple. That nipple may actually be your best bet for helping with the hang fires.

When I first tried T7 with the reals, hang fires were a bad constant problem. I found that the nipples flash hole had a hard crust filling it. So hard, that using my nipple pick was impossible if I failed to pick the nipple clean after each shot. Now that I pick the hole clean after each shot, ignition has improved greatly. Some times you will run across a weak cap that sounds less than a toy cap gun, thats another issue but rare. A clean flowing nipple makes a world of difference. By clean flowing, I mean by design. Some of these nipples have a squarish bottom which causes the cap flash to actually bounce back up into our face. Knight & the Hot Shot, and even the Spitfire, have a great design to them that allows the cap flash to travel smoothly and exit the flash hole cleanly.

Sorry about the earlier mixup, I was just trying to help you out. Been doing this for a long time and its a great passion of mine.Do they make those nipples with a 6-.75mm thread for Investarms rifles? Not seeing that as an option on my quick Google search. I did see today track has the hot shot nipple in stock for my rifle. I've been looking for an excuse to switch to real BP for a few years now anyway. Guess this is as good a reason as any.

RE: the thick crud you noticed with T7 + REALs. I tried 2 shots with 60gr of FFFG T7 just for kicks. The first shot fired beautifully but the second shot completely misfired. I removed the nipple and saw exactly what you're describing. I pulled the REAL from the barrel and called it a night at that point. I've noticed a little more crud shooting the REALs with FFG T7, but nothing substantial really.

And no worries about the back and forth earlier.

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[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Yes they do make them in the 6-.75 thread. Check out knights website as well. Their shipping prices are terrible the last time i checked, BUT, they may have made adjustments.

if not, theres this,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Knight-Red-Hot-Nipple-11-Cap-Stainless-Steel-6-x-75mm-Thread-BRAND-NEW/231736754446?epid=1402021524&hash=item35f496410e:g:pz8AAOSw5VFWM-ZW

[dsayer]

Yes they do make them in the 6-.75 thread. Check out knights website as well. Their shipping prices are terrible the last time i checked, BUT, they may have made adjustments.

if not, theres this,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Knight-Red-Hot-Nipple-11-Cap-Stainless-Steel-6-x-75mm-Thread-BRAND-NEW/231736754446?epid=1402021524&hash=item35f496410e:g:pz8AAOSw5VFWM-ZWThanks!

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[charlie b]

As long as what you have is working for you don't change it.

I went through some issues with T7 as well. The crud ring and hang fires were a bit much so I went back to my old standard, Pyrodex RS. Yeah, it needs more attention to cleaning, but, it is very consistent and lights well. I use the Ampco nipples with the heavy loads and PP bullets.

Wads. I always use them. If felt helps try a veggie or card wad under the felt. That tightened up my groups even more.

I also like the Great Plains bullets, but, I size them to almost bore dia first and let the powder charge bump them up into the grooves. Yep, veggie and felt wads under them too.

Recoil. Can't tell but are you comparing the REAL with T7 to the other bullets with Pyrodex or black? IIRC, T7 has more 'power' per unit volume. If you are using the same volume of T7 it will push harder. The mfg has load information on it.