Kel-Tec Sub2000 problem

[fatelk]

On a whim I bought a new gun yesterday. I was done buying any guns for the indefinite future, but I saw this one and it looked like a fun little rifle, and as I'd worked enough OT recently to buy several of them I figured it wasn't a bad thing to spend a little.

It's a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 in .40 S&W, uses Glock magazines. I just took it to the range and I am very much unimpressed. I should have listened to the little voice in my head that was telling me it looked like a plastic piece of junk. I'm hoping it's not that bad and the issues I'm having can be fixed.

It went through 50 rounds just fine, no malfunctions (with Glock factory mags). The first issue was sighting in. I sure don't like the sight adjustment, and I had to put the front post almost completely to one side to get it shooting straight. This is not acceptable. It really messes with the sight picture. It looks like the front sight base is removable so maybe it's just canted.

Accuracy was so-so at 25 yards, 2-3" but maybe part of that is caused by the next problem: the gouge it makes into each round as it chambers them. Several times when adjusting the sight I extracted a live round from the chamber. Each one had a big gouge in the brass about 1/8" below the mouth, deep enough that it clearly dented the bullet. The chamber edge is clean, but maybe could use a slightly more rounded radius. Perhaps a tight/rough extractor could be a contributing factor. The trigger is terrible too. It's more like a rusty lever on a piece of farm equipment than a trigger.

Anyone experience any of these issues with one of these? On the plus side it had no malfunctions, and my wife was able to easily shoot clay targets against the berm at 25 yards. She's NOT a good shot, doesn't particularly like to shoot at all.

If I can get these two major issues figured out I think we'll be happy with it, for what it is: a fun little plinker carbine that fold up into a very compact package.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Fatelk: just send the gun back to Kel-Tec and include some damaged rounds so they can see what is wrong. Also ask them to sight the gun in correctly. They will do all of it for free, and you don't need an FFL to ship it or get it sent back to you directly. Regular UPS is fine.

Sometimes these guns don't get as much attention as they should at the factory. The Factory is small and has a tremendous workload so things do slip thru. But overall the gun you got is a winner for what it is intended to do, and that is as a back up to your Glock Pistol. It is a 100 yard gun. There are up to 31 round mags available. As a truck gun they are great as they do fold up into a small package.

Also go over to the KTOG. that is the Kel-Tec Owners Group Forum and there is everything there is to know about all KT products there. https://www.thektog.org/

Just be patient it will all work out.

Randy

[Tackleberry41]

The trigger, will require money. Just not much can be done with a factory one. I put some springs in mine, helped a little. Theres an aftermarket aluminum one supposed to make a big difference.

There is an edge on the chamber in those rifles. A nice smooth radius on the bottom edge, would be another step, and another employee. Back to Kel Tech wont fix it. But its an easy fix in your garage. I had a 40 cal one, and got mine to work with 9mm mags, mine was a non glock type. But ran fine with a 30 rd 9mm Beretta mag. Just take off the edge, no more damaged brass.

Sights, they can be canted, mine did the same, required it shifted all the way to one side to shoot straight. Theres no set screw like a hi point. Looks like it threads on, then a jam nut to hold it in place. They have changed the design, mine had one big nut, the next had a jam nut and thread protector. Would probably require a set screw be drilled or a rather thin shim.

I sold my 40 cal one, just didn't need it. Still have my 9mm. Worked up a cast load that would stay subsonic in 40 cal. Its a neat little rifle, but needs alot more bolt weight being blowback. Keep meaning to lathe one out of brass or maybe add some tungsten. Still has alot of bolt pop.

[fatelk]

Thanks guys. I'll give them a call and see what they say. It looks like both major issues shouldn't be that much of a problem to fix myself if I go that route, but I'll contact them first since it is a brand new gun.

Here's what it does to the brass:

216302

I bought an "SGM Tactical" 30 round magazine, but I'm unimpressed with it too. I have my favorite load that I've used in the Glock for quite a while and they work flawlessly in Glock magazines, but the internal dimensions of this aftermarket mag are slightly different and they don't fit at all, complete fail. It looks like if I shorten the OAL a bit they should work but I haven't tried it yet. It just irks me to change something that's worked so well.

[therealhitman]

I have had mine in 9mm for a little while now, it's in my get home bag with two 33 rounders every day. I put 50 or so rounds through it at 8" plates 25 yards and in a couple of times a month to stay familiar (if not mildly proficient) in case of SHTF scenarios, unlikely as they may be. It has yet to give me a single function issue with any ammo it has eaten. And, thinking about it now, I haven't cleaned it since maybe Thanksgiving. Can't beat that.
The trigger is not good, but is more than functional for the format and purpose IMO. But Lord the sights are horrible. I think if Kel-Tec developed a decent and somehow retrofit-able sight set for a Gen 3 version they would sell one to every single owner of a Gen 1 or Gen 2 and make millions. Unfortunately that rear peep is integral so we'd be stuck buying a Gen 3.

[therealhitman]

Here's what it does to the brass:

216302


That is crazy bad. Gotta be a defect. You may be getting a new front half on that gun!

[Tackleberry41]

I bought one of the SGM tactical mags, will be only one I buy. Even after messing with it where it works, its range use only.

My 40 cal did the same sort of thing, gouged up the cases. Jewelers file and a dremmel fixed it in a couple minutes. I sent mine back for another reason, and they replaced the barrel....with one that gouges up brass again. I think 40 might be a bit much for a mostly plastic gun. Mine after not to many rounds got loose. When it was locked and ready to fire, there was still play where the gun acted like it would fold. Sent it back, they replaced the barrel. Traded it off on another gun purchase.

I had the bolt out of mine, potentially could add some tungsten to it. But seems the easiest way to get more weight to the bolt is a new charging handle. See about making one on the lathe.

[thegatman]

Had an older one. Put an ak-47 sight on front. Mine ran 9mm with 59 series mags.

[fatelk]

I’m kicking myself a bit for not buying the 9mm instead of the .40 S&W. After doing some research online it does look like the .40 is on the edge for the design, and I see several complaints of them wearing out prematurely. I only did it because I have a Glock .40 and not a Glock 9mm.

I wanted something that I could shoot a fair amount at the range with my sons, but if this thing is going to be a sloppy loose worn out gun in a couple thousand rounds then it’s not the tool for the job. I still like the compact design but may be better served with a more sturdy rifle at the range.

[Tackleberry41]

There are piles of the 40 versions for sale vs 9mm. It really is pushing the design with 40, odd as everyone calls it slow and weak. I bought the 40 cal as its what they had, later they had a 9mm. Sent the 40 back to Kel Tech, cant say I even fired it after it was returned. I remember seeing some sort of chart at one time, showing the bolt weights required for various calibers of subgun. 40 required more, more bullet weight, so more recoil. But Kel Tech uses same weight parts in both guns, you can buy a heavier bolt, that they should just include in the 40s.

I get way better results out of a mechtech in 40, with a nice heavy bolt to soak things up. Weight is critical. Been messing with a 9mm AR build. It will function with a standard buffer, but only way to stop bolt pop is with more weight. Cant make it longer or wider, has to fit in the buffer tube. Only way is choice of materials. I made a brass buffer, not heavy enough. Drilled it out, filled it with lead, almost there. So have a bar of tungsten on the way. Yea they sell such buffers, but whats the point of owning a lathe if your not going to make stuff on it?

[fatelk]

If I get it working to my satisfaction, I think I'll work up a special load for it. Maybe I'll get another .40 mold around 150 gr. or just a light load that we could shoot plenty of without beating it up.

[W.R.Buchanan]

FE mine has 5000+ rounds thru it. The gun is just fine, it just needs some TLC.

Please don't listen to the naysayers. They'll only bring you down.

Send the gun back with your damaged rounds and they will fix it.

Randy

[Hamish]

FE mine has 5000+ rounds thru it. The gun is just fine, it just needs some TLC.

Please don't listen to the naysayers. They'll only bring you down.


Send the gun back with your damaged rounds and they will fix it.

Randy

Exactly.

[Digger]

If I get it working to my satisfaction, I think I'll work up a special load for it. Maybe I'll get another .40 mold around 150 gr. or just a light load that we could shoot plenty of without beating it up.

There you go ...right train of thought .
Been using a Mihec mould for quite a while now , cast 150 solid , 135 HP. or "penta" ..
Seems that mould and the my Keltec go together very nice , accurate ,dependable .
Lately using about 3 or 3 1/2 gr. of Clays , very nice shooting.

[fatelk]

My first thought was Darn it, I want to shoot my standard Glock load in it, should have got the 9mm version instead. Then I realized that if we did end up shooting it at the range a bunch, it was no problem to just work up a nice downloaded .40S&W that shoots more like a 9mm, is easier on the shoulder and easier on the gun. I could always shoot the 180gr Glock load as needed too.

On close inspection of the chamber I could feel a sharp edge. There's a real small bevel at the chamber entrance and a sharp edge between that and the chamber, sharp enough to shave brass. I carefully polished it down a little to where it's smooth and slightly rounded. I removed very little metal, didn't want to go overboard. I'll get to the range again sometime this weekend and see how it does. When I get time I'll see what I can do about the front sight. I like the idea of a thin shim or something.

I thought about sending it back for repair, but if these are simple things that I can fix myself it's really no big deal. It kind of stinks to have to fix a brand new gun but it seems that that's pretty common nowadays.

[OBXPilgrim]

Because some of the threads about these, I looked at one at the last guns show. No way I could even look through the sights without canting my head over to one side so far it felt ridiculous. Having low cheek bones must be a requirement to see through the sights on these.

[lead chucker]

I have a gen II in 9mm and absolutely love it. It was a learning curve with cast boolits. I had some guys here help me with that. I noticed the action is pretty violent and softer boolets would get beat up. I started casting harder boolits and my feeding problems went away instantly. All I shoot in it are cast 125 gr sized .358 over 4 gr W231. I can keep 15 shots in a 2 inch group at 30 yards. I really like mine, it gets to go to the range every time.

[lead chucker]

In all fairness my 2 in group at 30 yards is with a rest and a red dot sight. Im not that good of a shot off hand.

[lightload]

When I had several Kel-Tec handguns and had to keep sending them back to the factory, I had better luck by asking a tech guy if I could send the pistol to him. They paid the freight.

[fatelk]

I finally got around to tinkering with it again. The front sight jam nut was TIGHT. I had to make some covers for my vice jaws to hold it tight enough without marring. Once I got it loose the sight spun easily on the threads.

It took a while tinkering with it at the range to get it straight like it should be, but I finally got it there. It looks good, the sight post is right where it should be, and the groups are centered on the target. Accuracy seems decent for what it is. My informal plinking produced groups around an inch to an inch and a half in general, at 25 yards. That works fine for me, for what it is.

It still mars the round a bit going into the chamber, but not near as badly now.

[Digger]

I finally got around to tinkering with it again. The front sight jam nut was TIGHT. I had to make some covers for my vice jaws to hold it tight enough without marring. Once I got it loose the sight spun easily on the threads.

It took a while tinkering with it at the range to get it straight like it should be, but I finally got it there. It looks good, the sight post is right where it should be, and the groups are centered on the target. Accuracy seems decent for what it is. My informal plinking produced groups around an inch to an inch and a half in general, at 25 yards. That works fine for me, for what it is.

It still mars the round a bit going into the chamber, but not near as badly now.

You are definitely working the bugs out , shows you are "inclined" to deal with things yourself.
you will be proud of the results.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Fatelk: You will like the gun, there is something about a little gun that can spit out pistol rounds faster than you can load them.

They were originally designed to be a police back up using the same ammo and mags as the service pistol.

They make into a very good and compact 100 yard gun, and with a little practice and with the long Glock Mags (33 round) if you had to go into Walmart to extract your wife with bullets flying, you'd be well armed.

Mine is a Gen I in .40 S&W and I have slightly modified it to what you see in the pics. It has a Bushnell TRS 25 Red Dot sight on it which makes target acquisition much faster than the irons.

Randy

[OBXPilgrim]

I'm a bit interested in the method of mounting your TRS25. Are you shooting it left handed? Left-eyed? Or is it mounted to rotate the gun to shoot with the grip horizontal to the ground? Or is it some kind of swing mount? I don't think I've seen one like it.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think what hes doing is using a quick release base and just sticking on one of the rails when folded and putting it back on top when shooting.
I'm a bit interested in the method of mounting your TRS25. Are you shooting it left handed? Left-eyed? Or is it mounted to rotate the gun to shoot with the grip horizontal to the ground? Or is it some kind of swing mount? I don't think I've seen one like it.

[fatelk]

What kind of accuracy do you guys get out of your Sub-2000? It seems that about the best I can do consistently is most rounds in about 3" groups at 50 yards (from sandbags using my very best marksmanship abilities despite the terrible sights and trigger pull) with some flyers further out.

It's good enough for busting clay targets out on the berm 75 yards away, and I still like it. I'm just wondering if there's any point in trying to find a better load for it.