Introducing: The .22 ladybug

[NoZombies]

I've been messing with small capacity and small caliber wildcats for a while, and the most recent endeavor is the .22 ladybug. It's intended to answer the question of "Is there a direct CF reloadable replacement for the .22 LR?". While the ladybug requires a different chamber than the .22 LR (experiments for a cartridge that didn't require rechamber didn't go well) it is a very good analog for the .22 LR cartridge, performance will be discussed below.

It ends up being pretty similar to the cartridge Chas. Askins developed in the 30's (the .221 askins) though it's derived differently and has some dimensional and application differences.

Beside the LR cartridge:
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/1.JPG

I was explaining to my wife that many small caliber wildcats are named after bugs, like the hornet, bee, wasp etc. She said this one is more like a ladybug "It's cute, and it kills garden pests quietly". So the name stuck.

Here's the ladybug next to a few behemoth cartridges, the .32 S&W long and .32-20.
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/compare.JPG

So far I have 2 rifles in the caliber, a 16.25" Contender (easiest conversion ever!) and a 24" H&A falling block. All accuracy and velocity testing has been through the contender.

Case capacity is fairly low at avg 3.91 grains water capacity. As a result, powder charges are low. I'm currently experimenting with titegroup powder, as it's very conducive to the small capacity and bore of the cartridge. 1.1 grains of TG is pushing a 40 grain cast bullet (BHN 12-13) tumble lubed with 45-45-10 to velocities of 940 FPS avg. (keeping it subsonic for suppressor use).

The first 10 shot (offhand) group at 25 yards with that load:
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/target1.JPG

I've pushed the same bullet as high as 1600 FPS, but at those velocities, the accuracy was terrible and it loosened the primer pockets in the brass and stuck brass in the chamber. Loads up to about 1250 FPS remain accurate and show no pressure signs. This is intended as a .22lr replacement anyways, so keeping things below about 1250 doesn't give up anything on the desired goals of the cartridge.

I've also tested a light bullet through the gun... you know, for the recoil sensitive... at 20 grains, the same 1.1 grain TG load pushes it close to 1300 FPS, but maintains accuracy.

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/mos.jpg
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/WC.JPG
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/target2.JPG

I started out making brass from .22 hornet brass through a fairly complex process and a number of operations on the lathe. I later realized that I could accomplish the same thing by using cheaper brass, I just couldn't have the length any longer than the original RF case. After several iterations, I arrived at the current version.

Now I form the ladybug from .25ACP brass. I deprime the brass first, then using a special base punch designed to support the primer pocket, I swage the body down in 2 steps from .278 to .247. I swage all the way to the rim, but the brass springs back more around the web of the case, so I still have to do a quick trim in the lathe just above the rim, although I'm only removing about .003 from each side, and not touching the original rim.

The brass ends at .247 diameter straight, with a rim diameter of around .300-.305 and thckness of .042. My chamber is .251 straight with a rim recess .309 in diameter.. trim length is .625" and long bullets can theoretically be loaded and fired due to the long throat that results from the rechamber from the .22LR chamber, but I haven't checked anything over 45 grains for stability.

The first 10 cases I made are still going strong without even an anneal, and they've all been loaded and fired at least 50 times. I just dump them in the ultrasonic for a bit between loadings to remove the powder residue.

I've made up a bunch more brass, and I'm working on a way to make the brass without a trip to the lathe, but I'm not 100% happy with that solution yet.

Here's a box of ammo ready to go shooting:
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/50rds.JPG

[nagantguy]

Hats off to you sir;taking your day dreams and ideas into proof of concept and then to to working models . This is a good idea, my never replace .22lr but sure could ease the next rimfire drout , I'm very impressed by your work and write up! Like to see pics of your two rifles. Very cool!

[Jack Stanley]

And then there's that guy up north that offered to powder coat bullets for you ....... red with black specks ;-)

Jack

[Randy Bohannon]

I love it I would buy one get the brass forming to easy endeavor as you said. I would go back to a TC for one of these.Good luck in getting figured all out, sounds like you're on your way.

[Nines&Twos]

And then there's that guy up north that offered to powder coat bullets for you ....... red with black specks ;-)

Jack

You might have’ta drive “UP” from his house to get there but “NORTH?” !!!
Thems fightin’ words to a redneck ess ohh bee like that guy.
Then again, the guy is a hypocrite for associating with all them ‘Liars’.


The LadyBug is a beauty. Perfect companion to the Badger.

[Outer Rondacker]

I like it.

[NoZombies]

I need to get a photo of the H&A, but here's the contender... not that it looks any different than any other contender... but yeah...

I just replaced the scope I was using with the vintage Leupold that I've got on there now. I'm not sure if the scope was having any problem, but I think it might have been, but I know the leupy is good, so when I finally get the chance to really put it on a rest and try it out next week, I'll know the scope isn't an issue.

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/contender.JPG

[Nines&Twos]

Ohh and it’s even set up for very discreet ‘Cat-secutions’
Strays beware. Nice work NZ.

[jmort]

Color me impressed
I like it too

[Jedman]

That is just plain COOL ! May I ask what type of press you use to size the solid head on the 25 ACP brass ? Also do you have to recut or ream the primer pocket after sizing.
I have several wildcats in larger calibers but was planning something like what you have there.

Very Nice ! Jedman

[Michael J. Spangler]

I need a lathe!
Awesome job!!!

[Camba]

I am wondering if you can use the 5.7x28 FN case to make your cases. It seems to be about the same dimensions as the 25 acp brass.
Keep up the good work!
Camba


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KLR]

Can you neck it down to .17?

Just kidding. Awesome work!

[markX]

Wow. Awesome work.

[dverna]

Nice job!!

A lot of thought and work went into this and a fine result

[badgeredd]

Excellent thread. Great idea too. It sounds like you have arrived at a cool wildkitty logically. I also once tried making a direct replacement for the 22LR and found it way too hard to get something viable. Your approach makes more sense. GOOD JOB!

Edd

[NoZombies]

Thanks guys! I appreciate the compliments, and I'm really enjoying the little bugger. It's not practical for many things, and wouldn't be practical for many people, but it works for me, and does something I've always wanted to do.

To answer some questions:

I have considered the 5.7 brass as a parent case, but I didn't have any to mess with, and the 25 ACP ended up working about perfectly for what I was trying to accomplish. If I find some 5.7 brass, I will experiment with it, I promise :)

I did the initial run of cases on an RCBS RCII, Now I'm making brass using a Corbin CSP1 on the swaging setting. The RC would do the work, but the swage press just makes life easier.

The first few cases I made, I didn't support the primer pocket sufficiently (I left the old primers in, but it wasn't nearly enough) and so I had to ream the primer pockets. The punch that I'm using now fully supports the primer pockets, and I don't have to touch them as part of the case forming process.

The cases are pushed all the way into the forming dies until the rim is touching, as a result, they have to be driven out of the dies with a punch. I've made several versions of the forming dies, and have settled on .263 (intermediate) and .246 as my forming die diameters The case springs back a little bit through the body, but much more at the head, so into the lathe it goes to make the head match the body diameter.

I'm working on a set of dies that would actually utilize the swaging press better, and eject the formed case using the ejector pin, rather than hammering the brass out of the dies with a punch. When I have the time, I'll get those done, but it might be a bit...

I've tried making shear dies to prevent the necessity of the lathe work, but so far I've only had limited success with that. I've got a few more tricks I may try with that, but at the end of the day, a few seconds on the lathe isn't that bad, and if I didn't have a lathe, a drill press and a file would honestly get it done, we're only talking a few thousandths.

I have necked the case to .17 actually, and I've got a rifle that should be done for testing that in a few weeks...

A few other notes for the interested:

The Lee hand primer doesn't do well with the case, because the shell holder they make for it is too loose, and tends to want to bend the rims, as they're only supported by a few thousandths by the shell holder. The standard Lee shellholder for 25 ACP works fine for reoading or ram-priming however. I haven't had issues with any other shell holders for the .25 ACP.

[richhodg66]

This is awesome!

[Jack Stanley]

Sooooo................ the new rifle in seventeen caliber is the what? ....... rabid skeeter?

Jack

[kens]

That is a really good job there.
What if (I thinking out loud here) you took 25acp and necked it down to .17.?
Do you remember the movie "Honey, I shrunk the kids" ?
Would the end result look like a .308 shrunk down to .17?

[2wheelDuke]

That's pretty cool. What boolit is that, an older Lyman design? I should have a small amount of 5.7 brass around somewhere. I'll try to remember you if I find it anytime soon.

[DuaneH]

Could the lathe turning step be eliminated by making the final sizing dia. .241, and letting the case spring back to the desired .247? Then just neck expand before seating the bullet for the first firing.

[NoZombies]

Sooooo................ the new rifle in seventeen caliber is the what? ....... rabid skeeter?

Jack
I was just gonna call it the .17 ladybug, but I sometimes lack creativity...


That is a really good job there.
What if (I thinking out loud here) you took 25acp and necked it down to .17.?
Do you remember the movie "Honey, I shrunk the kids" ?
Would the end result look like a .308 shrunk down to .17?

Probably would look more like a miniature (!) .218 bee. The .17 has been necked down directly before, basically every diameter as small as .10! Bill Eichelberger called his versions 'darts' and they are pretty neat!


That's pretty cool. What boolit is that, an older Lyman design? I should have a small amount of 5.7 brass around somewhere. I'll try to remember you if I find it anytime soon.

Thanks Duke! It's a 225107 that I've been messing with. I've also got a NOE version that I need to pull out and cast more with as well. It's close enough to identical that the bullets fit in each others cavities. The even smaller one is a Mos made mold. 20 grains in a single cavity sue drains the pot a lot slower than the 500 grain 4 cavity I've got... :shock:

[NoZombies]

Could the lathe turning step be eliminated by making the final sizing dia. .241, and letting the case spring back to the desired .247? Then just neck expand before seating the bullet for the first firing.

Thank's for the thought, It's one I've had as well, and that's one of the next experiments I'm working towards. I don't have a boring bar small enough to cut a hole under .250, so I've been relying on chucking reamers to make my dies. I should have an answer to that question next week sometime, when my next batch of reamers arrives... I'm planning to try .240,.241, .242 and .243 to see if I can get something where I want it.

[maxreloader]

Great work! I have a couple questions... what kind of die set are you using to resize the brass after firing? Is the chamber reamer going to be available (haha)? Have you tried converting any 22lr long guns to this cartridge? My hat is off to you sir, very well done indeed!

[Rcmaveric]

Awesome. Now i am curious of the process to convert the gun and brass. I have been curious for a cartridge that can cover 22LR versatility for small game hunting.

[NoZombies]

Great work! I have a couple questions... what kind of die set are you using to resize the brass after firing? Is the chamber reamer going to be available (haha)? Have you tried converting any 22lr long guns to this cartridge? My hat is off to you sir, very well done indeed!

Thanks!
I've mostly been using a sizing die that I made in the process, but the brass is strong enough and pressures low enough that it barely touches the brass (unless I'm pushing harder than I normally do) and mostly just punches the primer out.

I don't have a chamber reamer yet, I've cut all the chambers so far with a combination of chucking reamers and have a total of about $25 invested in them... I will probably have a reamer made up once I have everything else figured out, but until I've got a latheless way to size brass, it's not a viable wildcat for most people to mess with. To answer the inevitable questions about the chucking reamers, I used a .251 reamer with a stop to keep depth at .635 (to give .010 for fouling build up etc) to cut the chamber into an existing .22 LR chamber, and a .309 reamer with a .250 pilot (eh... even with the added .001 it was fine) to cut the rim recess to .042 deep, again, using a stop. I've checked the chambers I've cut, and they're all within .001 of concentric, so I don't feel I'm loosing anything with this method.

So far only the contender and H&A have had the work done. I'm working on a couple of other guns, but I don't want to let the cat out of the bag until they're proven. The round works through about 50% of older .22lr magazines I've tried, (and all .22 magnum magazines I've tried) but I don't want to lose any brass until I have a better supply, so for now, I'm mostly working with single shots.

[NoZombies]

Awesome. Now i am curious of the process to convert the gun and brass. I have been curious for a cartridge that can cover 22LR versatility for small game hunting.

Come over some weekend, I'll buy you a beer and answer whatever questions... and let you shoot one ;)

[rking22]

Nice project! I've often thought it would be nice to have a 221 Askins to play with, now I'm really interested. Would be really nice in a low wall..... Too bad Tennessee won't let me squirrel hunt with a cf.

[Jedman]

Nice project! I've often thought it would be nice to have a 221 Askins to play with, now I'm really interested. Would be really nice in a low wall..... Too bad Tennessee won't let me squirrel hunt with a cf.
State laws are funny, Here in Ohio there has never been any limits to legal weapons for squirrels we can use a 458 Win Mag if we want but for deer it took forever for us to now be able to use a straight walled cartridge rifle. I guess if deer could climb trees we would have been OK with rifles before.:shock: Jedman

[dverna]

Like I said in my earlier post....nice job. You have a lot of talent!

But with rimfire ammunition available again at less than $.05/round what is the point?

I do not believe this round can be produced on a progressive press and that would be a benefit for plinking ammunition. Just a lot of work and expense to duplicate what a rimfire does.

[rking22]

My interest lies in the accuracy potential and the available bullet shapes. The ability to Taylor a load with a nice fp bullet is intriguing. I have a near lifetime supply of plinking long rifles, but limited target grade hunting loads.
Think of the easy build of a Ruger NO1. No need to move the firing pin :)

[725]

This is incredible. So much talent, ingenuity, & creativity. Way to go, Sir. More pictures and further up-dates on everything. I put my Tom Clancy & Nero Wolfe aside when stuff like this is available.

[Hickory]

I wonder if Starline would make brass?
Seems like the answer for the lack of 22 rimfire ammo that was during the Zero years.

[NoZombies]

Like I said in my earlier post....nice job. You have a lot of talent!

But with rimfire ammunition available again at less than $.05/round what is the point?

I do not believe this round can be produced on a progressive press and that would be a benefit for plinking ammunition. Just a lot of work and expense to duplicate what a rimfire does.

I agree completely, there is almost nothing this does that can't be either closely replicated or possibly bettered by tailoring your rimfire ammo.

These days, most wildcats are about filling a very small niche, and that's what this one does as well, it provides .22LR performance in a round that I can reload, experiment with different bullets, powders etc.

As I said in the first post, this is to answer the question of what a reloadable CF .22LR would look like. It's also fun!

[Nines&Twos]

ALMOST nothing you say.
But there are some who despise the .22lr for the simple fact you are at the mercy of the ammo companies. Even though the rimfire CAN be reloaded it’s sucky proposition.
I prefer tailored quality over mass volume.
Can’t wait to see it turn a tree rat inside out with an RCBS 55g flat point.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Sooooo................ the new rifle in seventeen caliber is the what? ....... rabid skeeter?

Jack.17 Gnat

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I would love to see this cartridge made, and chambered, in some good single shots!

[17nut]

Thinking out loud:
What about collet sizing the base?
Displaces brass in a more controlled manner.

BTW: The want factor is high with this one!!! ;-)

[NoZombies]

Thinking out loud:
What about collet sizing the base?
Displaces brass in a more controlled manner.

BTW: The want factor is high with this one!!! ;-)

It's a thought, but I'm not sure I could apply enough leverage to a collet to size the solid head. Sizing the head down on the Corbin swage press is easy, but it was about all the RCII could do. What kind of collet did you have in mind?

I've been very happy with the brass life I've been getting so far. I imagine a couple hundred cases will last me just about forever.

[17nut]

Since you made all your forming gear from scratch, a ring with a slightly conical hole and a bushing with 4 slits should be easy.
Given that the near cam point of the RCII should be enough in a step or two. Personally i would use a 4ton hydraulic press.
But if what you have works fine then let this be a thought experiment.

What im thinking of is something like this:
216179
http://www.larrywillis.com/

[Hawks Feather]

This is a really neat looking little ladybug and can see where it could come in handy for several different uses.

[Bloodman14]

Send me some of your boolits, and I will powdercoat them HF red with black spots for you! Just for fun!

[pertnear]

Very neat project & congratulations on your craftsmanship!

Have you tried the 20gr bullet with primer only? That should be a super quiet pest load.

[buckwheatpaul]

I would love to see this cartridge standardized....I would jump on the bandwagon for one of those....great job and good luck.....Paul

[NoZombies]

Very neat project & congratulations on your craftsmanship!

Have you tried the 20gr bullet with primer only? That should be a super quiet pest load.

I've got some loaded to try, but haven't fired them yet.

Because of how fast TG is, there's very little muzzle pressure at uncorking, and it's pretty quiet as is, even the supersonic stuff isn't obnoxious without the can on it. I'm estimating less than 400 PSI at uncorking with the subsonic 40 grain load. That's a fair bit less than CCI SV from the same barrel length.

[woodbutcher]

[smilie=s: Very nice Sir.Please post updates as you are able.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[beechbum444]

I keep following this thread and I want one. How hard would it be to ream an a 22 lr barrel for this and set it in a break action shot gun barrel and put a scallop indention by the rim to eject.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Could you cut down 22 CCM cases?
There is a thread on here about them being available right now. I think BACO has them.

[NoZombies]

I keep following this thread and I want one. How hard would it be to ream an a 22 lr barrel for this and set it in a break action shot gun barrel and put a scallop indention by the rim to eject.

That should be really easy actually. I used chucking reamers for the barrels I've chambered so far, with good results.


Could you cut down 22 CCM cases?
There is a thread on here about them being available right now. I think BACO has them.

Yes, the CCM brass requires a little rim work along with the trim, but works fine otherwise. I can't personally justify the expense of buying it, but it would be the easy way to get there .

[Chev. William]

Nozombies,
Very good write-up of your .22 Ladybug and its Development.
RE: the 'spring-back' of the Base diameter. Have you thought of a 'Three stage forming sequence' with the Last stage done with about .005" reduction in diameter?

Re: RCBS "RCII" press use thought. I use a purchased Used RCBS "RC" press that I changed the handle from a 'Straight Grip original' to a 'Ball Grip' longer one from an RCBS "Ammomaster II" that is about 4" longer overall from press mount point to Grip point.

This made my Forming of .22 Hornet cases down to .276" in a Lee .25ACP carbide Ring Sizing die in one step MUCH easier. I now use Multiple Step Swaging down on 5.7x28mm cases via "opened" .25ACP Lee Carbide Ring in the same press with a LOT less Effort in each stage.

My Lee carbide ring sizing die came from Lee as a tapered entry, after the Mouth radius, to a sizing diameter that yielded .276" body with about a .280" base diameter tapering over about .300" from the Base of the Case with the case pushed in so the rim touched the radius.

I just received two new Lee "Oversize" Dies that are supposed to size to .278" which is the SAAMI Maximum .25ACP Case Diameter. Using a dial caliper the two measure about .277" and ~.2775" Sizing diameter.

Also have you considered using a Carbide Drill Bushing mounted in a die body for your final Swaging/Forming die?
They are Normally made with a Straight Bore and a radius on each end of the bore so would not have The taper of the Lee ring Dies.

And Finally: Please Submit the Cartridge design to "Ammoguide Interactive" for inclusion in their Master Cartridge Data base. Mike Haas is very appreciative of such Wildcat Cartridge submissions with whatever data you have on Performance.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

"Ammoguide Interactive" has a listing for the ".22 Epperson Cricket/.22 Pokey" which is a Bottle Neck conversion of the .25ACP Case. the Web address for the cartridge listing is: "http://ammoguide.com/?catid=160".
Eichelberger has listings for the .10 and .14 Dart Wildcats made from .25ACP case.
I found no listing so far for a .17 made from a .25ACP case though.

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

Nozombies,
Very good write-up of your .22 Ladybug and its Development.
RE: the 'spring-back' of the Base diameter. Have you thought of a 'Three stage forming sequence' with the Las stage done with about .005" reduction in diameter?

Re: RCBS "RCII" press use thought. I use a purchased Used RCBS "RC" press that I changed the handle form a 'Straight Grip original' to a 'Ball Grip' longer one from an RCBS 'Ammomaster II" that is about 4" longer overall from press mount point to Grip point.
This made my Forming of .22 Hornet cases down to .276" in a Lee .25ACP carbide Ring Sizing die in one step MUCH easier. I now use Multiple Step Swaging down on 5.7x28mm cases via "opened" .25ACP Lee Carbide Ring in the same press with a LOT less Effort in each stage.
My Lee carbide ring sizing die came from Lee as a tapered entry, after the Mouth radius, to a sizing diameter that yielded .276" body with about a .280" base diameter tapering over about .300" from the Base of the Case with the case pushed in so the rim touched the radius.
I just received two new Lee "Oversize" Dies that are supposed to size to .278" which is the SAAMI Maximum .25ACP Case Diameter. Using a dial caliper the two measure about .277" and ~.2775" Sizing diameter.

Also have you considered using a Carbide Drill Bushing mounted in a die body for your final Swaging/Forming die?
They are Normally made with a Straight Bore and a radius on each end of the bore so would not have The taper of the Lee ring Dies.

And Finally: Please Submit the Cartridge design to "Ammoguide Interactive" for inclusion in their Master Cartridge Data base. Mike Haas is very appreciative of such Wildcat Cartridge submissions with whatever data you have on Performance.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

I appreciate the thoughts and suggestions, some stuff to mull over for sure.

I hadn't thought about the press handle change, if I find myself needing more leverage on the RC, I'll keep that in mind next time.

I've considered the carbide drill bushings, but until I figure out all of the diameters I need, I haven't spent the money on them. Though I have made a few die bodies to take them in the past for other projects.


"Ammoguide Interactive" has a listing for the ".22 Epperson Cricket/.22 Pokey" which is a Bottle Neck conversion of the .25ACP Case. the Web address for the cartridge listing is: "http://ammoguide.com/?catid=160".
Eichelberger has listings for the .10 and .14 Dart Wildcats made from .25ACP case.
I found no listing so far for a .17 made from a .25ACP case though.

Chev. William

Interesting. I know epperson made a .17 version of his cartridge, and I'm almost positive that Eichleberger did as well... I'm guessing they just didn't make the registry.

[trapper9260]

Back when zero was in office.i had wish someone would come up with what you are working on.Since I use the 22lr for my trap line. I could use this for it and reuse the brass and reload them on the off season.It would work for me. I did look into about 22lr to reload and after what I read it is not worth it for me. but this would be.I had got the 327 mag BH for if 22lr was to keep going the way it been.i would use 32S&W and 32ACP in it for the trap line. But this would work better.Keep it up. I will watch your work on this.

[Chev. William]

Back when zero was in office.i had wish someone would come up with what you are working on.Since I use the 22lr for my trap line. I could use this for it and reuse the brass and reload them on the off season.It would work for me. I did look into about 22lr to reload and after what I read it is not worth it for me. but this would be.I had got the 327 mag BH for if 22lr was to keep going the way it been.i would use 32S&W and 32ACP in it for the trap line. But this would work better.Keep it up. I will watch your work on this.

The .22 Corbin Flea is a bottle necked base upon the .32ACP case. Somewhat higher Propellant Capacity with additional velocity possible, approaching .22WMR area.
Chev. William

[trapper9260]

The .22 Corbin Flea is a bottle necked base upon the .32ACP case. Somewhat higher Propellant Capacity with additional velocity possible, approaching .22WMR area.
Chev. William

I see that is not a common round.but is something to know about .Thank you.I got the 327 because of all I can do with it for the different rounds i can put in it.If I use it on the trap line it will mainly will to dispatch the animal in the trap.Also to use for hunting other wildlife. A gun with more then one use.I have stock on 22lr some time before all that happened in the past and just thinking ahead what if.

[NoZombies]

Very neat project & congratulations on your craftsmanship!

Have you tried the 20gr bullet with primer only? That should be a super quiet pest load.

Well, I tried the primer only loads, and they were disappointing, I tried 3 in the contender, and each one got stuck in the bore. Easy enough to push out, but still no fun. I haven't tried magnum primers, but I think that experiment is done for now. I'll try a half a grain next time.

[corbinace]

Not to hijack this interesting thread...does anyone recognize these 32LC reformed cases?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?356983-Any-ideas-on-these-bottle-necked-32-Long-Colt-cases

[Chev. William]

Not to hijack this interesting thread...does anyone recognize these 32LC reformed cases?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?356983-Any-ideas-on-these-bottle-necked-32-Long-Colt-cases

See reply on the referenced Thread. Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Well, I tried the primer only loads, and they were disappointing, I tried 3 in the contender, and each one got stuck in the bore. Easy enough to push out, but still no fun. I haven't tried magnum primers, but I think that experiment is done for now. I'll try a half a grain next time.

I read somewhere on another forum that Magnum Primers typically raise pressures about 3500psi, with all other variables being held equal, over regular primer.

How far from the Muzzle were the bullets stopping, and how long is the test barrel over all, with the regular primers only?

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

I read somewhere on another forum that Magnum Primers typically raise pressures about 3500psi, with all other variables being held equal, over regular primer.

How far from the Muzzle were the bullets stopping, an dhow long is the test barrel over all, with the regular primers only?

Chev. William

That's a good thought, I'll see if I have some SP mag primers to try out.

The bullets stopped at various places in the bore, and pushed out with little force. I was testing in a 16.25" barrel. In a 7" barrel they work fine, but aren't moving very fast.

[KenH]

NoZombies - Let's just say I'm IMPRESSED!!! Something I always wanted was a centerfire .22LR. Yes, I know I can buy .22LR for around same price as reloading these days, I just enjoy the reloading and casting my own bullets. I'm VERY impressed with your work. Each time I think I've got all the guns I need - you've just added one more that I really "need" [smilie=s:

I see you're in N. Fla - I'm just across the line in Baldwin county.

Ken H>

[NoZombies]

NoZombies - Let's just say I'm IMPRESSED!!! Something I always wanted was a centerfire .22LR. Yes, I know I can buy .22LR for around same price as reloading these days, I just enjoy the reloading and casting my own bullets. I'm VERY impressed with your work. Each time I think I've got all the guns I need - you've just added one more that I really "need" [smilie=s:

I see you're in N. Fla - I'm just across the line in Baldwin county.

Ken H>

Come on down sometime, you can inspect the ladybug in person and try shooting it.. :)

[David2011]

Awesome development! Great read, too. Could you use small rifle standard or magnum primers? It doesn't seem like pressures would be an issue. Specs for outside dimensions are the same as pistol primers.

[fast ronnie]

An interesting idea.
It's got me to thinking about a .25 acp necked down to .17 while leaving the rest of the case intact. In other words, a bottle-neck case. I figure it's already been done, but would be kind of cute to experiment with.

[NoZombies]

Awesome development! Great read, too. Could you use small rifle standard or magnum primers? It doesn't seem like pressures would be an issue. Specs for outside dimensions are the same as pistol primers.

I'm sure you could use any of the small primers. I'm using up an old stock of CCI SP primers and they've been working well enough that I haven't experimented with anything else. I have no idea on pressures, but in the tiny case they're more likely to spike, so care would be required when changing anything like that.


An interesting idea.
It's got me to thinking about a .25 acp necked down to .17 while leaving the rest of the case intact. In other words, a bottle-neck case. I figure it's already been done, but would be kind of cute to experiment with.

Yup, it was discussed a little bit earlier in the thread, at least 2 wildcatters have necked the .25 down to .17. Though I know nothing of performance.

[Chev. William]

That's a good thought, I'll see if I have some SP mag primers to try out.

The bullets stopped at various places in the bore, and pushed out with little force. I was testing in a 16.25" barrel. In a 7" barrel they work fine, but aren't moving very fast.

it seems Standard Small Pistol Primers will push your bullets more than 7" but less than 16.25"; so i would Hope Magnum Small Pistol, or Magnum Small Rifle, Primers would provide performance approaching .22BB RF or .22CB RF cartridges in your 16.25" barrel.

Chev. William

[303Guy]

That's awesome, NoZombies!

I have the odd 22 barrel and a few barrel off-cuts from shortening that I have been wanting to use for something like that. A high velocity 22 air rifle pellet firing rifle for example, for where lethal range needs to be limited. Or just paper punching. I once loaded a 22 pellet in my hornet that had more impact effect than a 22 lr. The Ladybug should be just the ticket - and I do have a lathe.

[NoZombies]

it seems Standard Small Pistol Primers will push your bullets more than 7" but less than 16.25"; so i would Hope Magnum Small Pistol, or Magnum Small Rifle, Primers would provide performance approaching .22BB RF or .22CB RF cartridges in your 16.25" barrel.

Chev. William

I think you're probably right, though to be fair the 7" barrel was an off-cut from a .22 WMR and has a looser bore compared to the contender barrel. I just haven't had time to experiment with other primers... hopefully in the next few weeks.


That's awesome, NoZombies!

I have the odd 22 barrel and a few barrel off-cuts from shortening that I have been wanting to use for something like that. A high velocity 22 air rifle pellet firing rifle for example, for where lethal range needs to be limited. Or just paper punching. I once loaded a 22 pellet in my hornet that had more impact effect than a 22 lr. The Ladybug should be just the ticket - and I do have a lathe.

If you're interested in building one, let me know and I'll be happy to with info as I have the time. One other experiment you may like:

A piece of off-cut .22 barrel with a short throat cut in for seating a bullet, and the 'chamber' reamed to accept a 209 shotgun primer does a pretty decent job of recreating the .22 CB cap, and will absolutely rocket a .22 pellet out of the barrel... turn one of those down to fit in a shotgun chamber, and have some fun!

[Outer Rondacker]

NoZombies, why do you not live next door to me. I wish you lived next door. Oh the fun we would have.

[303Guy]

If you're interested in building one, let me know and I'll be happy to with info as I have the time. One other experiment you may like:

A piece of off-cut .22 barrel with a short throat cut in for seating a bullet, and the 'chamber' reamed to accept a 209 shotgun primer does a pretty decent job of recreating the .22 CB cap, and will absolutely rocket a .22 pellet out of the barrel... turn one of those down to fit in a shotgun chamber, and have some fun!
I was thinking of a 410 shotgun insert. Now if I could make a 410 pellet .... [smilie=1:

My thinking with the barrel offcut is to mate the barrel onto a chamber so no throating of the bore would be required. It would also mean that any booboo's would be easily reversible.

[303Guy]

NoZombies, why do you not live next door to me. I wish you lived next door. Oh the fun we would have.

Yeah, me too. Both of you.

[303Guy]

If you're interested in building one, let me know and I'll be happy to with info as I have the time.


Thanks for the offer. At the moment I am still thinking along the lines of a cast boolit hornet, shooting heavies. I have a 14 twist 22 barrel (Toz) that I want to use.
For the 22 pellet rifle I would use my Cooey barrel as this one is tight enough for the pellet head to ride the bore. I have a Checado barrel too that needs a purpose. If I could master casting such small pills I would like to do something like your 20gr ladybug with one of my offcuts, using the the barrel to chamber mating idea. We don't have too many 25 ACP's around in my parts. I should check the availability of cases. Failing a supply of cases, I see no reason not to neck down shortened hornet cases. Plenty of those around here.

[NoZombies]

NoZombies, why do you not live next door to me. I wish you lived next door. Oh the fun we would have.

The place next door is for sale... It even has a decent view. I haven't walked through it though, so no idea on workshop space...


Thanks for the offer. At the moment I am still thinking along the lines of a cast boolit hornet, shooting heavies. I have a 14 twist 22 barrel (Toz) that I want to use.
For the 22 pellet rifle I would use my Cooey barrel as this one is tight enough for the pellet head to ride the bore. I have a Checado barrel too that needs a purpose. If I could master casting such small pills I would like to do something like your 20gr ladybug with one of my offcuts, using the the barrel to chamber mating idea. We don't have too many 25 ACP's around in my parts. I should check the availability of cases. Failing a supply of cases, I see no reason not to neck down shortened hornet cases. Plenty of those around here.

Makes sense. I think either a 12 or 14 twist barrel would be ideal, as it would expand the usable bullet weights.

Barring the availability of .25 acp brass, Hornet can be used, and it's actually what I made the first several cases from... So far all of my chambers have been cut with chucking reamers. In barrel stubs, I've used a .224 chucking reamer with the front edge softened to 'throat' the barrel to accept the bullets. So far, I haven't seen any accuracy issues that I think are from the way I'm cutting chambers.

I've also been working on an improvement to the cartridge that I'll unveil after I do a bit more work on it. I'm willing to bet you guys will like it. :razz:

[Chev. William]

I believe Midway Supply is carrying Jagemann Stamping made .25ACP empty cases and they DO On-Line orders.

ADDED 20180404: Midway Supply currently is selling Hornady .25ACP emties in 200 count bags inside "Hornady Cartridge Cases" Red card stock packages. The sample I checked is .277" Dia. by .615" Long.

"PPU" .25ACP Empty cases are also available by Mail via the Internet.

Magtech, or CBC, .25ACP occasionally is available; but I have not seen it for the last year.

If you have a CF Converted .25 Stevens Rifle, Outdoors Limited usually has PPU Loaded .25ACP for reasonable cost as a 1000 round order, or a slight premium for a 50 round box (shipping is cheaper per round at the 1000 piece order level).
Sadly, California has Legislated to 'Close the Mail-Order Ammunition Market' here.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Considering getting into forming my 'under size' .25ACP empties into "Ladybug" cases.
It looks like a series of 7 hardened Steel Drill bushings of 1/2" OD and Length would be about $73.35 including sales tax and shipping, and blank die bodies about another $160 (PT&G @ $20 each for 8 plus shipping). then the time to machine the Blank dies to take the Bushings and threading the inside tops for Accessories/tool adapters would add only time.

Starting with the .25ACP at .278" dia. then reducing it via Standard Bushing sizes to ~.250" dia. and final Custom Bushing to ~.244"-.246" final diameter. making a ".22 long rifle" length but ".22 WRF diameter" CF case for inside lube bullets.

Sigh, Retired on fixed income makes this a "Long Term" kind of Project.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

After checking my Funds this month I ordered several Steel (Rc61) Hardened Drill bushings from Mcmaster-Carr on line. these are a series of Standard Sizes down to .250" ID so I will eventually order a custom one for the last swaging size.
Here is the list of sizes i ordered:
"Line; Product Number; Ordered; Delivers; Price; Total.
1; 8491A272; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.25" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 6.45 each; $6.45.
2; 8491A344; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.25" ID, 1/2" OD, 1-3/8" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 12.07 each; $12.07.
3; 8491A273; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.257" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 9.12 each; $9.12.
4; 8491A275; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.2656" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 8.68 each; $8.68.
5; 8491A651; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.272" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 8.45 each; $8.45.
6; 8491A145; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.277" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 10.68 each; $10.68.
7; 8491A188; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.316" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 6.36 each; $6.36". "

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

The Drill Bushings arrived Today!
I Like McMaster-Carr as a supplier.
The UPS shipping was about the same as the California Sales Tax!
Using a .0001" resolution micrometer, they measure .5015" to.5016" outside diameter so a .500" reamed hole should be a interference Press fit.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

My thinking is to use the 1-3/8" long bushing of .250" ID to make a Seating Die. I can make a seating stem working tip from .250" drill Rod piece or a drill blank (better choice would be something that cuts easier). The adjuster for it would be threaded and have a socket in its end to hold the tip. I am guessing I would use a 20 pitch thread for the adjuster, probably 7/16 (actual choice is 1/2-20UNF3 thread) inch Diameter. the tap drill is a "W" of .3860" (actual used tap drill is 15/32 or~.468") diameter, just slightly larger than the 3/8" bore I was planning on, to leave support for the 1/2" OD drill bushings.

Perhaps buying die blanks with a .30 Cal. Pilot hole would be a good idea as I could leave a larger end force support for the bushings and drill out above it for the Threading, leaving the support shoulder thickness at .30" ID.

The Forming dies perhaps should be shortened to make their storage more compact; after all this is a Pistol Cartridge and the PT&G bodies are Rifle Cartridge Length.

Chev. William

[Bigslug]

Found this thread late. . .my brain is spinning with the possibilities of this as a standardized round.

1. We all tend to horde .22LR for the simple fact that we CAN'T reload it. This would make having a more reasonable pile of brass a practicality.

2. The sport of BR-50 was discontinued largely because even the really good .22LR wasn't living up to Benchrest demands. Not having one side of the cartridge getting crushed on ignition has GOT to be good for accuracy potential. Taking things to the Benchrest or Olympic Smallbore level would require a lot of match-prep steps to brass, bullets, primer, lube, and powder selection, but I think there's HUGE potential here.

3. The ability to dispense with heeled bullets raises interesting possibilities with jacketed, heavier weights, faster twists, custom throats, etc..., not all of which would work in a magazine, but since .22 singles shots have always been very much "a thing". . . Remember the Aguila .22 SSS (Sniper Sub Sonic) that was basically a .22 Short case with a 60 grain bullet extending the length out to LR dimensions? This could certainly go there.

4. The ability to make it out of Hornet cases would indicate that a .22 WMR version is possible. A .22WRF version would, with a little ingenuity to create a CF conversion, get some old platforms economically shooting again.

Intrigued. . .very intrigued. . .

[Chev. William]

Found this thread late. . .my brain is spinning with the possibilities of this as a standardized round.

1. We all tend to horde .22LR for the simple fact that we CAN'T reload it. This would make having a more reasonable pile of brass a practicality.

2. The sport of BR-50 was discontinued largely because even the really good .22LR wasn't living up to Benchrest demands. Not having one side of the cartridge getting crushed on ignition has GOT to be good for accuracy potential. Taking things to the Benchrest or Olympic Smallbore level would require a lot of match-prep steps to brass, bullets, primer, lube, and powder selection, but I think there's HUGE potential here.

3. The ability to dispense with heeled bullets raises interesting possibilities with jacketed, heavier weights, faster twists, custom throats, etc..., not all of which would work in a magazine, but since .22 singles shots have always been very much "a thing". . . Remember the Aguila .22 SSS (Sniper Sub Sonic) that was basically a .22 Short case with a 60 grain bullet extending the length out to LR dimensions? This could certainly go there.

4. The ability to make it out of Hornet cases would indicate that a .22 WMR version is possible. A .22WRF version would, with a little ingenuity to create a CF conversion, get some old platforms economically shooting again.

Intrigued. . .very intrigued. . .

Welcome to this Party Bigslug!
As to your #4 comment, the .22CCM has recently been made available by two or three Commercial suppliers so the ".22WMR CF version" is available nowadays. Not Cheap; but Available.

The .22WRF case length of .960" can be made from one of three ways now:
A. trim of a .22CCM;
B. make from .22 Hornet and trim to length; or
C. make from either 5.7x28mm or 4.6x30mm used cases.
Each has both good and bad points consider; such as the Tooling required to form .246"-.248" diameter cases from the larger diameter 'parent' case without excessive losses in intermediate steps versus the cost of a 'formed from .22 Hornet case .22CCM parent' that can be trimmed down in length but then may need inside reaming to thin the Mouth down to practical use thickness.

My own experiences with Forming both Hornet and 5.7x28mm cases down to .276"-.278" diameters Leads me to think the Hornet, having thinner base web and sidewalls, might yield a larger internal Powder Chamber Volume in the swaged down case than a 5.7x28mm case would.
For my experiments in making .25ACP lengthened wildcats the 5.7x28mm parent allows higher working pressures to be tried out as the Swaging process also work hardens the base further to make primer pockets more robust and last longer.
ADDED 20180428: The 5.7x28mm also has a Polymer coating that simplifies my Swaging process by Negating the need to "lube the Case" before swaging as long as I use multiple steps in my swaging. -- Chev. William

I think the use of .25ACP Brass to make this '.22 Ladybug' is a very good use as it yields a slightly more work hardened but higher net Internal Powder Chamber Volume case than could be made from Just swaging down and trimming a .22 Hornet case.
NoZombies combination of Swaging and Turning the case would probably yield an intermediate net Powder Chamber Volume between that of the .25ACP swaged down
and the .22 Hornet swaged down intermediaries.

Note: as to your final question; WWJMBD, I figure since he developed the .25ACP in the first place, he would 'roll his own' versions of the CF .22WRF and .22WMR and enjoy the shooting.
Chuckling,
Chev. William

[NoZombies]

So, a few updates are in order:

I've continued working slowly on this as I've had time (not much lately, but a little more than I've been updating)

Some things that may be of interest to folks:

1. I've made some minor adjustments and created a version of this that feeds better through magazines. It still requires some lathe work, but opens up some potential platforms for the cartridge that would otherwise be less than ideal. I've just been calling it the ladybug repeater. I'll upload some photos in the next day or two. It works in all of the previously cut ladybug chambers, but original ladybug brass won't fit into repeater chambers (it's the rim diameter that makes the difference). It works in 100% of tube magazines (lifters etc might need work, but it feeds through the magazines) and at least half of the box magazines I've tested it in, with that number expanding considerably with a little bit of work to the magazines.

2. I've been talking with a brass guy who says he might be willing to make ladybug brass for folks who are interested. The cost would be around $0.60 a piece (either version) for quantities of 100.

3. I'm planning to have dies made up for reloading the ladybug. The dies would work for either version, but would come with the shell holder for the repeater version (to load the original, you would just add a .25ACP shell holder) Cost for the dies would be around $85, and they would have a carbide sizing die. They would not be forming dies, though if you have a small lathe, they would probably get you there with a few small tools. I'm designing the dies to work for reloading the ladybug, and any other length version straight wall at .247 diameter up to the .22 CCM (though you would need a different shell holder for the CCM)

4. Chamber reamers should be available to buy or rent (not from me) around the same time the dies and brass are available. (mid to late summer most likely)

This will NOT be a commercial venture for me, but I've enjoyed the cartridge enough that I want to make it accessible to like minded folks. I'll make a few bucks (call it diaper money I guess) on the dies, but not anything else.

With all of that, you should be able to convert a .22 contender barrel (about the easiest conversion) by renting a reamer, buy dies, and 100 pieces of brass, and still have enough left over from $200 to buy a cup of coffee. Other conversions will depend on numerous factors including whether the cartridge will feed through a magazine, and the difficulty of CF conversion.

I'm sure Chev Williams will have some more fun with it in the mean-time as well, but I figured if I can make it an actually viable caliber for those without the resourcefulness and ingenuity at that level, it would just be that much better. Besides, who doesn't want carbide dies for their wildcat?

I'm looking for a few more actions to convert, and a few are in progress, so as I'm able to work on this, I'll continue to update. But Ive got another kid due any day, so I'll be a little busy with that for the next little bit, so progress may be slow.

[respiegel]

This is a very interesting project, what semi actions have you converted so far?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[NoZombies]

The .22 LB repeater in the middle flanked by .22 LR and original LB for comparison:

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/LB2.JPG

And the same cartridge in a Remington .22 bolt gun being tested for feed through the magazine. It looks like the Rem will only need a CF conversion and a chamber ream to become a LB repeater!

One of the nice things about the LB repeater version is that it allows the conversion of a number of .22's without any work on extractors, bolt face diameter or ejection. Essentially just a chamber ream and CF conversion with a lot of different guns.

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/LBF.JPG

I'm still finalizing the extractor groove depth and angle on the repeater version, and the photos above are early in the development. I was worried that the groove right at the primer in an already very small area would be problematic, but I've got a dozen or more reloads on the original repeater brass at over 45K PSI (calculated) and the primer pockets are still holding, so I'm calling it a win, as I'll be declaring 25KPSI max for the cartridge (should allow just a slight edge on .22LR ballistics without straining even the weakest converted action unduly)

As I mentioned, I'm looking for a few actions to convert. I'm looking for a winchester 67A with a bad bore (I have a spare barrel/receiver, just not the rest of the gun) I think it would be a great single shot boys rifle in .22 ladybug, and should be an easy conversion. I'm also looking for a tired or toasted I-frame smith (.32 or .38) that I can build into a ladybug. If anyone has either of those that they'd be willing to sell cheaply, I'd be eternally grateful!

[NoZombies]

This is a very interesting project, what semi actions have you converted so far?


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Actually, I haven't converted a semi auto yet, but I have one in the works and I hope to test it in the next month or so.

[respiegel]

Actually, I haven't converted a semi auto yet, but I have one in the works and I hope to test it in the next month or so.

Ah ok, red you were testing magazines and got excited. Please keep us posted!


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[broken arrow]

NoZombies,
I'll be watching this for your entire trip.
I have a number of single shots that would be fun to shoot with this little round.
(would be interested in having someone else do the brass, too)
Thanks for all your efforts,
Dave

[Chev. William]

NoZombies,
Your arranging for a supply of ready made Brass is very considerate of you, thank you!
I will be looking forward to the Reloading dies and Commercially listed Chambering reamers. as that is a pair of markers of a 'successful' Wildcat Cartridge.

As to the Extractor cut dimensions, may I suggest the Depth and width of the cylinder portion be such that the rim of one cartridge will 'nest' in the cut so the bodies are parallel and touching. John browning did this with the .25ACP and it Works well; he also found that the Taper going toward the Mouth of the Case needed to allow easy 'ramping' of the nested rim up ward to clear the Body of the Lower Cartridge during the feed from a 'stacking' magazine. From a tube magazine , these conditions do not apply.
To recap:
Subtract the body diameter from the MAXIMUM rim diameter; then divide that result in half to get the Depth of the Lathe cut (half diameter).
Example: 5.7x28mm rim diameter is 7.8mm (.30708+") per CIP standard.
.30708 - .24700=.06008+ rounding off to four places gives .0601" which divided by 2 yields .03005" truncated is .0300" cut depth. Check: .247-.060=.187" With a Small Pistol Primer diameter of .175", that leaves a (.187-.175=.012/2=).006" wall between extractor clearance cut and primer pocket wall. Minimal but still usable if the wall is at least 1/2 Hard Brass Alloy.
Of course since the .25ACP Rim is slightly smaller in diameter; using that dimension might make things more robust.

J.M. Browning used a Half Angle of 20 degrees for the Taper on his .25ACP/6,35 Browning Semi-Rimed design cartridge per CIP Standard.
FN used a Half Angle of 25 degrees for the Taper on their 5.7x28mm cartridge even Though the design is RIMLESS.

I used CIP dimensions as they are a Legal Standard Enforced in Europe an most of the Rest of The World; while SAAMI dimensions are only Recommended Practices published for use in the USA.

As to the Pressure choice: I would recommend a variation allowing two or more Pmax levels for the Cartridges. Your 25,000psi Pmax MAP for Conversions on old 22 RF rifles. A higher "+P", and even "+P+" Pmax for use in 'more robust firearms designs'
up to your commented 45,000psi or so.
Unless there are some exceptions, I believe the extractors of all .22 RF cartridges are designed and manufactured to have a small Clearance over both rim Diameter and rim Thickness; so Unless made with an unusually Long flat tip to lay alongside the Case body when engaged with the rim, most should easily extract your Ladybug and Ladybug Repeater cases.
I note that the Ruger "Single Six' is capable of handling .327 Fed. Mag. pressures in its frame (45,000psi Pmax MAP) so a Six shot conversion using the Ladybug design and a Quality Six shot, or Seven Shot cylinder, should be capable of such cartridge pressures.

My experiments with eight shot cylinders and .25ACP diameter Wildcats limit my Chamber to Chamber and chamber to Locking cut wall thicknesses; so I limit my Conversions to about 30,000psi or less Pmax MAP for a margin of safety.

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

NoZombies,
Your arranging for a supply of ready made Brass is very considerate of you, thank you!
I will be looking forward to the Reloading dies and Commercially listed Chambering reamers. as that is a pair of markers of a 'successful' Wildcat Cartridge.

As to the Extractor cut dimensions, may I suggest the Depth and width of the cylinder portion be such that the rim of one cartridge will 'nest' in the cut so the bodies are parallel and touching. John browning did this with the .25ACP and it Works well; he also found that the Taper going toward the Mouth of the Case needed to allow easy 'ramping' of the nested rim up ward to clear the Body of the Lower Cartridge during the feed from a 'stacking' magazine. From a tube magazine , these conditions do not apply.
To recap:
Subtract the body diameter from the MAXIMUM rim diameter; then divide that result in half to get the Depth of the Lathe cut (half diameter).
Example: 5.7x28mm rim diameter is 7.8mm (.30708+") per CIP standard.
.30708 - .24700=.06008+ rounding off to four places gives .0601" which divided by 2 yields .03005" truncated is .0300" cut depth. Check: .247-.060=.187" With a Small Pistol Primer diameter of .175", that leaves a (.187-.175=.012/2=).006" wall between extractor clearance cut and primer pocket wall. Minimal but still usable if the wall is at least 1/2 Hard Brass Alloy.
Of course since the .25ACP Rim is slightly smaller in diameter; using that dimension might make things more robust.

J.M. Browning used a Half Angle of 20 degrees for the Taper on his .25ACP/6,35 Browning Semi-Rimed design cartridge per CIP Standard.
FN used a Half Angle of 25 degrees for the Taper on their 5.7x28mm cartridge even Though the design is RIMLESS.

I used CIP dimensions as they are a Legal Standard Enforced in Europe an most of the Rest of The World; while SAAMI dimensions are only Recommended Practices published for use in the USA.

As to the Pressure choice: I would recommend a variation allowing two or more Pmax levels for the Cartridges. Your 25,000psi Pmax MAP for Conversions on old 22 RF rifles. A higher "+P", and even "+P+" Pmax for use in 'more robust firearms designs'
up to your commented 45,000psi or so.
Unless there are some exceptions, I believe the extractors of all .22 RF cartridges are designed and manufactured to have a small Clearance over both rim Diameter and rim Thickness; so Unless made with an unusually Long flat tip to lay alongside the Case body when engaged with the rim, most should easily extract your Ladybug and Ladybug Repeater cases.
I note that the Ruger "Single Six' is capable of handling .327 Fed. Mag. pressures in its frame (45,000psi Pmax MAP) so a Six shot conversion using the Ladybug design and a Quality Six shot, or Seven Shot cylinder, should be capable of such cartridge pressures.

My experiments with eight shot cylinders and .25ACP diameter Wildcats limit my Chamber to Chamber and chamber to Locking cut wall thicknesses; so I limit my Conversions to about 30,000psi or less Pmax MAP for a margin of safety.

Chev. William

I appreciate you breaking all of that down. The numbers that I've come up with for the extractor relief are within .0005 of the formula you quoted, although my starting numbers are a little different. The repeater version only has a rim diameter of .278 max (to match the .22LR extractors and bolt faces) which is what allows it to function through the tube and box magazines.

This leaves the extractor relief cut at .228 meaning there's about .020 on either side around the primer, which helps with strength, and allows for the fact that primer pockets aren't always 100% centered. I say I'm not done yet, as I've still got to cut a form tool to make all of them uniform. I'm continuing to test the sample cases, and once I'm 100% pleased I'll make the form cutter. Let me rephrase that... at some point afterwards I'll grind the form cutter (life is in the way more than I'd like)

As for pressures, The final decisions will be up to the individual wildcatter, but I'll offer starting place loads for the lower pressure ranges, and some ideas about how to get more out of it with higher pressures.

[Chev. William]

I was "Brainstorming" while Driving around doing errands today (Oh yes, "Brainstorming" can be dangerous if it goes too far).
NoZombies has apparantly combined the .22WRF/WMR, the .22Win.Auto, the .22 Rem.Auto, and the .22Long/Long Rifle RF case dimensions to arrive at his .22 Ladybug/Ladybug Repeater.
"The brass ends at .247 diameter straight, with a rim diameter of around .300-.305 and thckness of .042. My chamber is .251 straight with a rim recess .309 in diameter." --Nozombies.
For reference:
.22 Long Rifle Drawing from Ammoguide Interactive (AI):
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/ctgs/diag/sae/126.gif
which uses A Heeled and Outside Lubed bullet.
.22 Rem.Auto Drawing from AI:
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/ctgs/diag/sae/912.gif
Which used an Inside Lubed Bullet.
.22 Win.Auto Drawing from AI:
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/ctgs/diag/sae/805.gif
Which also used an Inside Lubed Bullet.
.22WRF Drawing from AI: (the .22WMR is similar but longer in case length and overall Length).
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/ctgs/diag/sae/752.gif
in which both use either Inside Lubed or Jacketed Bullets.

given the Maximum case length that can reasonably be derived from swaging down .25ACP seems, from NoZombies experiments, to be about .625" it seems any of the Possible other cartridge Designs would only be useful as 'Single Shot Short Use' in either the Winchester 1903 Auto or the Remington Model 16 Autoloader; However, the third version, the .22WRF/.22WMR 'short' version would be useful in a properly converted Rifle designed for such cartridges.
One at lest comes to mind immeadiatly: the 1890/1906/62 Winchester Pump Rifle.
If fitted With a CF Firing Pin tip, and a cartridge lifter fitted with the multiple length cartridge 'toggle part', this rifle should be able to chamber and fire a suitable version of the .22 Ladybug.

I would guess that the use of a .251" nominal Chamber Diameter would also mean the '.22WRF' version of the Winchester 1890 series will chamber the Ladybug or Ladybug Repeater in existing chambers.

I know that the Winchester 1890 design is strong enough to handle .22WMR as I have one that was reworked to handle .22WRF and .22WMR interchangeably. Due to the chamber being just Lengthened, rather than the barrel being set back and reamed 'from new'; the .22WMR sometimes extract stiffly as the roughly 100 years of shooting eroded the Chamber slightly at the Mouth of the .22WRF cases.

Its 24" barrel is relatively Quiet with .22WRF; but noticeably louder with .22WMR.
Accuracy is 'good' with both cartridges. It has basically the original Iron sights still on it; but I am thinking of fitting a used Tang Peep Sight on it to try out.

I am guessing those who own original Winchester 1903 or Remington model 16 would be the ones to decide if converting to CF is worth the loss in collector value to be able to shoot them again.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I tried making a Die body to hold one of the Drill Bushings I have purchased with not so good results: my 'seat' for the Drill Bushing is a 'push fit', but not a 'Hard Press' or 'Shrink' Fit.

It holds The bushing for Inserting the case to be formed, but the bushing stays with the case when Extracting.

I can finish the extraction of the sized case over a suitable sized Hole with a Punch and hammer. This is frustrating additional actions that should not be necessary.

I am thinking I need to find a .499" diameter reamer to size The .500" nominal OD Bushing's seats.

Chev. William

[BABore]

Drill bushings can be purchased from Carr-Lane in 0.001" increments.

[Chev. William]

Initially Carr-Lane says shipping via UPS only and Ground Ups at over $20 for a $8 Drill bushing! Yikes!!!

[sb327]

Could you use some blue locktite on the bushing Chev? Then heat it if you needed it out.

Dave

[Chev. William]

Could you use some blue locktite on the bushing Chev? Then heat it if you needed it out.

Dave

Possibly; but I have not had good success using Blue Locktite on item subject to Axial force after set up in the past.

[Chev. William]

Tried Another experiment with the Drill Bushing positioned so the "Exit" was the "mouth" of the modified sizing die. My result is a Swage formed case with a nearly constant Diameter from neck to Rim.

This is Encouraging and will be pursued Further. A small Fine, Thin, ring of sheared material was easily removed by sliding off the Neck with my fingers.

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

Tried Another experiment with the Drill Bushing positioned so the "Exit" was the "mouth" of the modified sizing die. My result is a Swage formed case with a nearly constant Diameter from neck to Rim.

This is Encouraging and will be pursued Further. A small Fine, Thin, ring of sheared material was easily remove dby sliding off the Neck with my fingers.

Chev. William

Excellent progress.

I've been making dies, and have had some luck, but life is busy right now, so I'm not moving forward at much pace.

I did experiment a little bit, and discovered that the ladybug can be successfully loaded using an old Lee loader in .25 ACP. Obviously the body won't size the case, but everything else works as it should, the little hand primer thingy primes the cases well, and the expander/uniformer thingy actually works fine on the .22 caliber shells. the bullet seater can be set to the right length, and the bullets can be seated with hand pressure. The only part of the kit that doesn't work at all (oddly) is the primer punch. the pin is too large for the flash-hole, though the rod fits inside the case fine... using a modern primer punch solves the problem though.

I don't know why I have 2 sets of Lee loaders for .25 ACP, (actually Mequon) but I do... and they both work for loading the ladybug.

[Chev. William]

RE: the Drill bushing Die Idea:
I had some time this evening in my friends Special Effects shop and used his Lathe to re-machine the die body that was 'too loose' to retain the Bushing against case removal forces.
I deepened the Die socket end cut with a 15/32" drill bit and then reamed it with a .5000" diameter Chucking Reamer. I then forced the bushing into the socket and turned a lip on The bottom of the die body; which i hammered over the edge of the Bushing (the bushing was set in with the radius end inside and the 'sharp/flat' end facing the "Mouth' of the die body).

I also machined a second Blank die body to tightly accept a 1-3/8" long .250" ID bushing for making a ".22 Ladybug" seating die later.

Both die bodies were Drilled 5/16" diameter through, with the Tops drilled 7/16" (Too small for easy tapping, I now use 15/32" tap drill)(as tap hole for 1/2-20 Threading) to at least 1-1/4" deep; with the top end drilled out to 1/2" diameter for 1/8" deep as a lead in guide.

I will try the revised die tomorrow, if Weather and Time allows.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I got the chance to try the revised .277" diameter Drill bushing die This Morning on ten cases preformed by swaging but not turned.

The revised Die Worked Perfectly! It 'shears' a Thin, fine, ring of Polymer and Brass from the lowest roughly .070" of the Body above the Extractor Clearance Cut and they came out of the die without problems.

The Sheared off ring does have to be removed by manipulation with my fingers though.

Final diameter at the Sheared area measured about .2768" with a .0001" resolution 0-1" range Micrometer.

Overall, this seems to be a time saving modification to my Process for making .25 Parent cases for my 'Wildcats'.
I will eventually turn my Long Pin Punch Body to slide further into the tops of these, PT&G, die bodies as they are longer overall than my other, Lee, forming die bodies.

The Long .2500" diameter Drill bushing is mounted in the second die body machined last night and accepts the sample .22CCM perfectly all the way to their rim tops.

I will need to make some seating pin 'punches' to fit, along with the 1/2-20 Threaded adjusting top piece. From experience, I find that Seating pin working face must fit the Bullet contour o rthe bullet will be distorted as it is seated.

More Machining Work for another time.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I found Another source Drill bushings: "Granger" supply; and theirs so far are very reasonable in Price with Shipping 'Free' and it seems the ones I need are in through Hardened Alloy 52100 Steel, the same Alloy Timken uses for their Tapered Roller Bearings.

Granger Also has A Listing for 8" long Pin Punches which will Make a better 'removal Punch' for the Long, Rifle cartridge length, PT&G Blank die bodies.

I ordered a 3/16" and a 5/16" diameter Punch and a couple of .2500"ID Drill Bushing from them and they came two days later!

The 3/16" punch I modified by tapering the end slightly and rounding the edge slightly to fit the inside fo th e.25ACP case when it is swaged down.

The 5/16" punch worked to drive a Broken Carbide ring out of a Lee .25ACP Die body to prepare to 're-purpose' it into a Swaging die for the .22 Ladybug Wildcat Cartridge case forming set.

Yesterday, I had a chance to use my friends Special Effects shop Lathe again and machined the 're-purposed' Lee Die body to take one of the .2500" ID bushings and threaded the top 1/2-20UNF to take future accessories, I also turned off the Lee markings as it no longer is a 'Lee Precision Product' nor a '.25ACP' sizing die.

I also threaded the tops of the other 're-purposed' dies 1/2-20UNF for future accessories.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

No Zombies,
I believe that to date you have said the following are the dimensions of your Wildcat .22Ladybug (.22LB):
Body Diameter = .247"
Rim Diameter = .300"-.307" (Proposed range .290" [now .278"]-,307")
Rim Thickness = .043" (Proposed range .032"-.045")
Water Capacity = ~3.91 grains H2O
Bullet Diameter = .223" or .224"
Primer size (diameter) = .175" (small Pistol, or Rifle, size)

Chamber Dimensions:
Diameter (straight cylinder) = .251"
Length from base datum = .635"
Rim Rebate Diameter = .309"
Rim Rebate Depth (from Base Datum) = .042"

.22 LB Repeater Dimensions:
(differences from .22LB)
Rim Diameter = .278"
Extractor Clearance Cut Diameter = .228"

You have swaged .25ACP cases down using swaging dies of .263" and .246" diameters.

Is my summary correct?
Chev. William
Added 20180501: Proposed rim dimension ranges added.
Chev. William

[NoZombies]

No Zombies,
I believe that to date you have said the following are the dimensions of your Wildcat .22Ladybug (.22LB):
Body Diameter = .247"
Rim Diameter = .300"-.307"
Rim Thickness = .043"
Water Capacity = ~3.91 grains H2O
Bullet Diameter = .223" or .224"
Primer size (diameter) = .175" (small Pistol, or Rifle, size)

Chamber Dimensions:
Diameter (straight cylinder) = .251"
Length from base datum = .635"
Rim Rebate Diameter = .309"
Rim Rebate Depth (from Base Datum) = .042"

.22 LB Repeater Dimensions:
(differences from .22LB)
Rim Diameter = .278"
Extractor Clearance Cut Diameter = .228"

You have swaged .25ACP cases down using swaging dies of .263" and .246" diameters.

Is my summary correct?
Chev. William

Chev. Those numbers look basically correct to me. I've experimented with some other intermediary sizing steps. At some point when I've got some more time, I'll get photos of the various tools that I've made or modified for the project.

I'm also essentially moving all efforts towards the LB repeater, as it does everything the original LB does, but some things that it doesn't do (like feed through magazines). The only thing the original LB had going for it was the common shell holder, but since I've found a few sources for .22LR shell holders for reasonable prices, It's not enough of a benefit to make a difference.

[Chev. William]

The SAAMI published maximum cartridge dimensions for the .25ACP indicate that the rim diameter is .302"(+0.0/-0.012") which indicates The Minimum SAAMI rim diameter is .290"; the rim thickness maximum is .043 with a (+0.0/-0.011") tolerance, or .032" minimum: the Extractor Clearance Cut diameter is shown as .252" (+0.0/-0.011"), or .241" minimum and cylinder length of .030" (+0.010/-0.0"), or .040 Maximum length; with a 20 Degree Half Angle taper up to case body diameter.
I believe the 5.7x28mm case rim is a maximum of .307" according to CIP Drawings; with the thickness at .04488" rounded to .045".

Accordingly, may I suggest the Rim diameter range for the ".22 Ladybug" be .307" maximum to .290" minimum and the thickness be .045" maximum to .032" minimum?

This would make the task of forming by others for Single Shot use a little easier as the rims would all be as manufactured; rather than selected or turned to size.
Further, the SAAMI minimum Extractor Clearance Cut diameter is slightly smaller than the Formed ".22 Ladybug" body diameter and would allow a final 'shearing/swaging' to final Base diameter. Much easier to implement than the Turning operation for many without a Lathe.

The additional changes you find necessary for use in Repeaters would be "To Be Determined" at this time.

As the ".22 Ladybug" or ".22 Long Rifle Center Fire" is stabilized in its dimensions, would you consider submitting it/them to "Ammoguide Interactive" with the Proposed dimensions and limits above?

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

For this Months "Discretionary Funds", i purchased three 1/2-20 Taps, a Threading die, a thread chaser, plus 8 PT&G Blank Die Bodies pilot drilled for .311" cartridges.

I plan to drill them 5/16" Through, with the top end drilled 7/16" and tapped 1/2-20UNF Thread.
The bottom end wil be drilled and reamed to take the 1/2x1/2" drill bushings tightly; so as to retain them against swaged case extraction forces.

Granger also Sells Hardened Steel Alloy Drill bushings and even listed ones in ."D" drill (.246") diameter. The ones I ordered from Granger came with Free Shipping from the Manufacturer as a "drop shipment"! That saved a lot of time by not having to go to Granger first before being reshipped to me.
I now have on hand Hardened Alloy Steel Drill bushings in the Sizes needed to swage .25ACP cases down to .246"-.248" diameters and am waiting for the PT&G die bodies to arrive.
Perhaps this weekend i wil get a chance to machine one or more die bodies to take the drill bushings, my Friends' shop work load permitting.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Spent about 6 hours in my friends Special Effects shop Saturday drilling and reaming my 8 Blank dies
To ready them for Tapping and for taking the 1/2"x 1/2" drill bushings.

Next is to Tap them 1/2-20UNF; then Install the drill bushings.

Tomorrow I will be helping my friend install an air conditioner and a refrigerator.
Fair trade I think.
Chev. William

Added 20180507:
Sunday morning was a successful trip to install the Refrigerator and Air Conditioner with my friend; we went to downtown Los Angeles, to the Studio lot where his special effects truck was parked and removed the failed ones and put in place the new ones. My friend will Plug them in and start running them Monday as they Need a time for the refrigerant compressor oil to settle back into proper locations before Running them.

Drat! Sunday afternoon I tried out one of the Drill Bushing swaging dies, the "I" (.272") diameter one, and found out a simple press fit is not enough to retain the Drill Bushing when removing the swaged case from the Bushing!

Since I machined all of the bodies to the same depth, I will need to go back and cut the bushing seats deeper; then machine a narrow 'lip' around the bushing seat that I can fold over the end of the bushing to lock it in place.

This will need to await another 'availability' of my friends' shop Lathe.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I had two Die bodies that were cut slightly deep for the Drill bushings so the bushing was recessed slightly. These two were candidates for an experiment that turned out well. I used a center punch to 'stake' the Edge fo the Die body inward over the end of the bushing; then used a pin punch to further move die body over the edge of the bushing. This seems to work as a 'test Swage case' was driven out without bringing the bushing with it.
I am thinking about a 1/32 inch deeper bushing seat and a machined 1/32 inch high by 1/32 Wide lip be machined into the die body bottom end.
This lip would be peened over the bushing end and worked down flat with the remainder of the die body face to lock the Bushing in place for swaging operations and removal of swaged case bodies.

A side note: May 8th I received an emergency and short warning work assignment call from my Union Dispatcher to operate a portable (Tow Plant) Generator on Location in Marina Del Rey at about 1300 for a Start of work at 1630. I told the dispatcher I would be late arriving but would answer the call; so got into work clothes, packed a Lunch cooler, put my dogs outside, and started out, with a stop to fill my work truck gas tank. Traffic went 'well' until about Olympic and the I-405 ramps where it slowed to a first gear crawl and remained at that speed until I exited onto the 90 freeway heading for the Beach and Marina Harbor. I finally Arrived At the Production company Base Camp near 'Fisherman's Village' at about 1700 and checked in with the transportation coordinator.
It turned out the Generator was loaded on a Surplus LCT (Landing Craft Tank) harbor work boat/tug along with a 70' reach Boom type 'condor' man-lift rigged with two 18,000 watt Movie High frequency Arc lights.

I spent the Night tending the generator in the middle of the Harbor.

We returned to the Boat launch ramp and unloaded the equipment after Sunrise, and returned to the base camp at 0700 May 9th. So that was 'A Day's Work for a Day's Pay'; 14 hours on duty, mostly standing, for a 75 year old Union 'Retired' Member.

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

Chev,

I'll have to grab photos sometime later, but I've made dies in the past for using drill bushings, and what I did was bore the die for a snug slip fit, then drill for a set screw, and grind an angled flat on the drill bushing. The angled flat is ground so that as any pressure is put on the bushing to force it out, it tightens more against the set screw. It makes things a lot easier, and allows a single die body to be used with multiple drill bushings.

Glad you're getting some time to work on this, I've been up to my eyeballs in other stuff, and haven't had a spare minute in a while. Hopefully that'll all settle down next week and I'll be able to spend a little time on a couple of things I've been wanting to do for the project.

[Chev. William]

NoZombies,
Thank you for the Idea about a set screw and Ground 'flat' to lock Bushing into die body; I will see if I can do that with the 'shop tools' available to me in my friends Special Effects Shop.

Re the Work 'day': Standing on the slightly rocking 'well deck' most of the night gave me sore leg muscles for the next two days afterward, I have not needed to Stand for Long periods like that since I retired from the military at Age 60. That 'well deck' also had welded in place ~3/4x3/4 inch 'traction bars' about every 8 inches running across the boat, beam to beam, inside the sloping side walls, minus a short distance on each side (to allow water drainage to the low point of the deck). Made any Movement about the 'well deck' more difficult.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Grumble, Grumble, Grumble. I forgot to Lube the cases before Swaging the .25ACP cases in a Hardened Steel Alloy Drill bushing die and my 45th case Stuck hard Enough to Have the Base of the Brass case 'punch out' when I went to drive the case out of the die.
Memo to Self: Lube Brass cases Before Swaging/Sizing them.
Now I have a "I" size (.272" Diameter) Die to get the now scrap stuck case out of and I did not have an "I "Drill bit on hand at home.
I will need to Order a Drill Bit (probably Two; so I will have a 'spare'): another 'Granger' order i think is in the works for me.
I will also try my Friend with the Special Effects Shop this weekend to see i fhe happens to have an "I" Drill bit on hand.

Future Item is to find and order some "Imperial Sizing Wax/Case Lube" before trying to swage/size any more of these Plain Brass .25ACP cases down. I guess I have Been 'Spoiled by the FNB 5.7x28mm Polymer coated cases ease of swaging/sizing in my Carbide Ring Forming dies.
Too bad Lee does not make a suitable Carbide Ring sizing die to have "opened' for use in making the 'Ladybug' cases.

As to alternative To the Drill Bushing retention system trial; I have not yet either tried To hold a Hardened Alloy Steel Drill Bushing to Grind a Tapered Flat on it s side nor Drilled and Tapped a die body for a Set Screw to hold one in place.
Doing the Lathe work so far seems to indicate the PT&G die bodies are possibly Heat treated as received to some level above Annealed/Normalized; as the Machining tools and die bodies get 'cutting lube smoking hot' in drilling or reaming so far. Filing on them also indicates something more than annealed/normalized hardness.

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

Just a short update:

Ive been too busy to get much done, but in between the middle of the night bottles and such, I've managed to spend a few minutes working on it.

First, I've been experimenting with shorter and longer versions of the ladybug. I didn't think to get photos of the longer cases, (made from hornet brass) but the shorter cases have been interesting:

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/lb-family.JPG

From L-R Ladybug repeater at .625", the same at .500" and then .400".

With 0.4 grains of TG the .400 cases is pretty funny, the bullets are moving at about 600 FPS, and you can watch them on the way to the target through the scope.

And someone earlier had asked about the H&A that I mentioned. This is it:

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/HALADYBUG.JPG

[Chev. William]

intriguing short case lengths you are investigating.
for .400" +/-.030":
Cartridge Name; Bullet Diameter; Shoulder Width; Body Width; Rim Width; Case Length; Case Capacity.
2.7mm Kolibri; .105; .140; .140; .140; .370; 1.0 .
.32 Extra Short RF; .312; .318; .318; .377; .398; 5.7 .
4.25mm Liliput; .167; .198; .198; .198; .410; 2.3 .
.22 CB Cap; .222; .224; .225; .276; .420; 3.0 .
.22 Short; .223; .226; .226; .278; .421; 3.1 .

for .500' +/-.030":
None found

for .600" +/-.030":
.32 Short RF; .312; .318; .318; .377; .575; 8.2 .
.22 Long; .223; .224; .225; .276; .590; 4.2 .
.22 CB Long; .223 ; .224; .225; .276; .597; 4.3 .
.25 Stevens Short; .251; .276; .276; .333; .600; 6.5 .
.32 Smith & Wesson; .312; .339; .339; .378; .605; 9.9 .
.22 Long Rifle; .223; .226; .226; .278; .613; 4.4 .
.10 Eichelberger Long Rifle;.103; .224; .225; .276; .615; 3.6 .
.22 Epperson Cricket/.22 Pokey;.222;.278; .278; .302; .615; 6.5 .
.25 Automatic; .250; .278; .278; .302; .615; 6.7 .
.17 Aguila; .172; .226; .226; .278; .618; 4.2 .

The .400" cae length has a few calibers using that case length.
It seems .500" case length is skipped for cartridges listed in the "Ammoguide Interactive" data base so far.
the .600" case length is somewhat popular with several calibers using that length.

For your stated use; the .400" case length with 0.4 grains of Tightwad giving about 600fps should be a Very Quiet cartridge. Was that with the 20 grain or the 40 grain bullet?

I have about 8ea ".32 Extra Short CF" cases made from .32 S&W Short swaged down in diameter and trimmed to length. Not easy to reload as the bullet seating is not easy to get accurate for Overall Length. I used 90 grain Accurate Mold Heeled bullets, the same onesI bought for my .32 Colt Long case loading.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Monday Morning Post after a 'successful' Sunday in my Friend's Special Effects Shop.
An "I" drill bit was available, and solved the 'Stuck Case' in my Drill Bushing Swaging die Successfully.
I got All of my 'Blank Die' bodies in this experiment (9 PT&G and 1 Lee) drilled and Tapped to 1/2-20UNF in the tops and the Bottoms reamed out for 1/2"ODx1/2"L Drill Bushing seats.

I also Turned the Shanks of two "AN8-12A" and one "AN8-10A" Aircraft Bolts down to clear The Threads in my dies Bodies; these are to make Adjustable Seating Punch holders later.

My friend and I also enjoyed an 'Inexpensive' Lunch out of the shop at a Local 'fast food' Place ("Queen's"). I had a 'Treat' in the form of a Hot Pastrami sandwich and small order of 'French Fries; i saved half of the sandwich for later and ate it as my dinner Sunday Evening.

More Salt than normal for my diet; but Oh So Tasty!

Chev. William

[woodbutcher]

;) Hi Chev.William.Don`t it just seem like that everything a person really enjoys any more
is either Illeagle,immoral or fattening?
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Chev. William]

;) Hi Chev.William.Don`t it just seem like that everything a person really enjoys any more
is either Illeagle,immoral or fattening?
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

It does seem that way Nowadays, truly does.
Even Driving 'just for the fun of it' strains my budget now.
Chev. William

[Catpop]

Congrats that is so inovative! I always wanted to do something special like that, but never found the time. Hats off to you!

[NoZombies]

Congrats that is so inovative! I always wanted to do something special like that, but never found the time. Hats off to you!

Thanks!

It's been fun, and when I have more time, I expect it to become even more fun!

[Chev. William]

"Middle of the Night Bottles" sounds like a New Born addition to your Family.
If so, I guess your "Free" time will be 'scarce' for a couple of years yet.

Chuckling,
Chev. William

[NoZombies]

"Middle of the Night Bottles" sounds like a New Born addition to your Family.
If so, I guess your "Free" time will be 'scarce' for a couple of years yet.

Chuckling,
Chev. William

Yeah, we have 2 in diapers in the house. I'm sure that someone is getting some sleep in the house, I'm just not sure who it is... or when.

[rking22]

We did the "serial twins" thing, they are 16 months apart. Only one slept in our house was the cat!
You get a chamber cut in that 67 yet?

[Chev. William]

Wednesday Evening I got 60 more .25ACP cases through The first Swage Stage without any problems by wiping each case with an oily cleaning patch.
So my Stuck Case was my fault, for not lubing the cases before Swaging them.
I got spoiled i guess by the FN polymer coating on their 5.7x28mm cases and Carbide Ring swaging dies.

The Last few days here have been Cloudy and Cool (below Average for late May) and it looks like the trend will continue through the memorial Day weekend.
Cool enough so my two dogs do Not want to go outside until about Noon.

Chev. William

[NorthCoastBigBore]

This is a great concept I've thought about before, but never took it farther - great work. Nooowww I just have to find some time. All my kids are long since out of diapers - but they still keep me up at night.

I'll try and start in on one of these conversions before the Fall, now that it has my attention.

[NoZombies]

We did the "serial twins" thing, they are 16 months apart. Only one slept in our house was the cat!
You get a chamber cut in that 67 yet?

Ours are a little further apart, so sometime this summer the older one should be out of diapers, or at least I'm hoping so...

I managed to assemble the 67, but I haven't made any further progress on it. I'm hoping this long weekend it might happen, since the in-laws are coming over to 'spend time' with the baby... We'll see how that goes.


This is a great concept I've thought about before, but never took it farther - great work. Nooowww I just have to find some time. All my kids are long since out of diapers - but they still keep me up at night.

I'll try and start in on one of these conversions before the Fall, now that it has my attention.

Welcome aboard. I'm not moving this forward as fast as I'd like, but even the little bit I have done has been fun!

The nice thing is that with a can, it's quiet enough I can shoot out of an open window into the back yard while the girls are napping (on the rare occasion that they nap at the same time) Otherwise I'd make no progress at all!

[Chev. William]

Friday Afternoon the Mails brought me some more Drill bushings so I now have a 'full set' of swaging dies to Take .25ACP, of .278" diameter, down to .22 Ladybug CF of .247" diameter!

I swaged my first case all the way to .247" diameter in steps using, in order, drill bushings of .277", .272", .2656", .257", .250", and .246".
I am going to add a .261" step to the sequence as it seems the .2656"-.257" step is slightly too much as it took more effort than the other steps.

It appears I will need to turn the displaced Metal ring off the .247" diameter body as it was Smaller than the Extractor Clearance Cut (nominal .250" diameter) and is still strongly Adherent to the Case.

Progress IS Still Being Made!

This weekend I am taking time to attend the "Los Angeles Live Steam Railroad Museum Memorial Weekend Meet" in Griffith Park herein Los Angeles,CA. Many Live Steam model Locomotives from 3/4" to the foot through 3-3/4" to the foot Scale are being run this weekend.

It started Friday Afternoon with a Spaghetti dinner and the Smell of burning COAL in the fireboxes of warming up locomotives. Night running commenced at Dark after Sunset and the Evening "Gloaming". It is an experience to ride behind one of them around the 6,000 ft long 7.50" gauge main line at night with the Working light Signals changing aspect as we pass them. The Glow of the Headlight off teh trees and brush along side the Right of way with the Sound of the Locomotive exhaust changing as we climb and descend grades. The Vibration of wheels on Rail joints and turnout frogs bring back memories of Full Size Train Rides I enjoyed in the past.
Saturday, was more of The same; but with an evening of BBQ Dinner and a Swing Band for evening entertainment for those not either running nor riding the Trains. Ice Cream made using a Model Steam Tractor to power a 6qt Freezer (Salt,Ice, and brine for the freezing bath) called "Steam cream" by the makers.
Sunday Still More of the same with Vehicle Parking full and Vehicles parked along both sides of Zoo Drive for about a quarter Mile in Both directions.

Chev. William
ADDED 20180528: Sunday evening I was able to get use of my Friend's Special Effects Shop Lathe and tried to turn the ring of displace brass of my First swaged .22 Ladybug Case with a Failure as a result. The case 'popped out' of the Six Jaw Chuck about half way through my turning operation resulting in dented and bent body to the case. "OH Fudge!" -- Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Late last week I "Stuck" another case in one of my Drill bushing swaging dies; this time it was the .261" ("G") size one. Sunday I was able to remove the "Stuck" case by drilling it out using my friends Lathe.

Waiting for some items to arrive that were purchased off of Ebay. A 5C chucking adapter holder, and some 5C work stops. Frustrating that I could NOT find equivalents in 3C size, even at Commercial Tool Supply houses.
The Commercial Tool Supply houses prices for The 5C items were Much Higher than those I paid by searching Ebay.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

A Little Progress on my Experiment in forming .22 Ladybug cases from .25ACP cases; I have 49 of a starting lot of 60 cases swaged down to .257" diameter.

My 'Losses' are attributed to 'learning Errors' on my part in learning to use these Drill Bushing derived swaging dies effectively.
- Three were from failure to 'catch' the extracted swaged case as it exited the die, they were "lost" when they bounce into some dark and unexposed corner of my 'Shop' (outside Patio reloading 'Shop').
- Eight were from my failures to insure the case was accurately Aligned with the Drill Bushing mouth and resulted in either a crushed case or a case with a deep edge crimp .
- Three were 'Stuck' Cases from my Case 'lube' process failures; I did not use enough 'lube'.
- The remainder were from ' over swaging' errors of adjustment of the Dies resulting in 'coining the rims thin and over diameter.

I do not yet have adjustment locking ring nuts for the die bodies as none came with the Blank Die bodies from PT&G Aviation 'Shear Nuts' are a possibility; but are much thicker than what I would like.
Ordering some as 'replacements' from a Commercial die maker such as Lee, RCBS, Hornady, Reading, ect. is still a future option.

I am holding off on the next swaging step, to .250" case body diameter, until I can make the tools/jigs to machine the Extractor Clearance cuts down in diameter to at least .244" so ther is a 'shear point' on the body for the displaced brass 'ring' that is occurring from the small radius at the mouth of the Drill bushings. Past swaging experience has shown me that a slight taper 'lead' in the mouth of the 'swaging die' greatly reduces this 'ring' as it give a gentler and smoother forming of the Brass down to the new diameter. Using many closely spaced swaging steps also reduces the size of the 'ring' as the difference between the starting and ending diameter at each step is smaller; so the radius at he mouth is less steeply forming the case brass.

One consideration in my making tools in my friends lathe is that it is NOT fitted with travel readouts; so the 'long axis' is by guess and by feel as to face cut depths. The cross axis is fitted with a marked dial so it is much more repeatable in it setting for diameter cuts.

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

A Little Progress on my Experiment in forming .22 Ladybug cases from .25ACP cases; I have 49 of a starting lot of 60 cases swaged down to .257" diameter.

My 'Losses' are attributed to 'learning Errors' on my part in learning to use these Drill Bushing derived swaging dies effectively.
- Three were from failure to 'catch' the extracted swaged case as it exited the die, they were "lost" when they bounce into some dark and unexposed corner of my 'Shop' (outside Patio reloading 'Shop').
- Eight were from my failures to insure the case was accurately Aligned with the Drill Bushing mouth and resulted in either a crushed case or a case with a deep edge crimp .
- Three were 'Stuck' Cases from my Case 'lube' process failures; I did not use enough 'lube'.
- The remainder were from ' over swaging' errors of adjustment of the Dies resulting in 'coining the rims thin and over diameter.

I do not yet have adjustment locking ring nuts for the die bodies as none came with the Blank Die bodies from PT&G Aviation 'Shear Nuts' are a possibility; but are much thicker than what I would like.
Ordering some as 'replacements' from a Commercial die maker such as Lee, RCBS, Hornady, Reading, ect. is still a future option.

I am holding off on the next swaging step, to .250" case body diameter, until I can make the tools/jigs to machine the Extractor Clearance cuts down in diameter to at least .244" so ther is a 'shear point' on the body for the displaced brass 'ring' that is occurring from the small radius at the mouth of the Drill bushings. Past swaging experience has shown me that a slight taper 'lead' in the mouth of the 'swaging die' greatly reduces this 'ring' as it give a gentler and smoother forming of the Brass down to the new diameter. Using many closely spaced swaging steps also reduces the size of the 'ring' as the difference between the starting and ending diameter at each step is smaller; so the radius at he mouth is less steeply forming the case brass.

One consideration in my making tools in my friends lathe is that it is NOT fitted with travel readouts; so the 'long axis' is by guess and by feel as to face cut depths. The cross axis is fitted with a marked dial so it is much more repeatable in it setting for diameter cuts.

Chev. William

Chev,

I've been experimenting with another die design that's showing promise. I'm using a a die with a very short "ring" section and a rounded leade. It's so effective that I'm able to size down in a single step from .278(ish) to .245. It ejects more easily as well due to the reduced friction. I'm still doing the lathe work for the rims and extractor cut, and as a result, taking the last bit off of the web that doesn't fit into the die due to the lead isn't an issue.

The reduced friction also reduces the sizing effort required, and I checked the setup on my RCII and it was a little more effort than FL resizing some rifle rounds, but less than some.

When I have a chance, I'll cut a die for the swaging press that will take advantage of the 'small ring' concept and see how that works out. In the mean time, I'm back to knocking the sized cases out of the die with a mallet and a punch.

Interestingly, by swaging in a single step, it also increases the length of the resulting brass. I'm having to trim more off to get to the OAL of .625, and if I needed to, it looks like I could trim most of them at .635 without issue.

[NoZombies]

And because everybody likes pictures:

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/LBR.JPG

[Chev. William]

Chev,

I've been experimenting with another die design that's showing promise. I'm using a a die with a very short "ring" section and a rounded leade. It's so effective that I'm able to size down in a single step from .278(ish) to .245. It ejects more easily as well due to the reduced friction. I'm still doing the lathe work for the rims and extractor cut, and as a result, taking the last bit off of the web that doesn't fit into the die due to the lead isn't an issue.

The reduced friction also reduces the sizing effort required, and I checked the setup on my RCII and it was a little more effort than FL resizing some rifle rounds, but less than some.

When I have a chance, I'll cut a die for the swaging press that will take advantage of the 'small ring' concept and see how that works out. In the mean time, I'm back to knocking the sized cases out of the die with a mallet and a punch.

Interestingly, by swaging in a single step, it also increases the length of the resulting brass. I'm having to trim more off to get to the OAL of .625, and if I needed to, it looks like I could trim most of them at .635 without issue.

NoZombies,

That sounds like a very good Idea for the Future Carbide Ring Die(s) you were planning.

Most Carbide Ring type of dies I have used previously use a Radius on the entry Edge feeding into a Short Shallow Tapered portion before the actual Lapped Sizing Bore. This seems to both minimize the amount of 'Displaced' Brass carried along by The Mouth to the end of the Stroke and Maximize the Amount of the 'Length Growth' of resized / swaged Cases.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[deltaenterprizes]

I have been working on a similar project for a while. I posted it under the title 221 Askins.
He had the idea first a long time ago and if it wasn’t for a bunch of cry babies to the NRA and the NRA giving into them the cartridge may have a production item today!
I made 10 cases the hard way with a 1/2 ton arbor press and a home made die.the sharp edge of the mouth cut a ring of brass from the web area.
My objective was to produce a reloadable centerfire equal to a 22 LR and also a reloadable version of the Aquila 22 Colibre!
I hade a bolt action 410 so I took a short piece of a Ruger 10/22 Barrel and turned it to the dimensions of a 410 shell and put a 22 pellet in a primed case.
I also have a Hopkins and Allen single shot rifle I plan to use to make a complete rifle but moved a little over a year ago and I am still trying to get organized and find things.
My shop is an oven in the summer and a freezer in the winter so my shop time is limited.
Congrats on beating me to working firearms and sharing your progress with us!
I hope to be able to get to work on that project again but I just bought a 22 Hornet to down load and need to make a “M” die and a set of 22 cal swaging dies for my Herters 9 ton press to make some light bullets!

[deltaenterprizes]

Well, I tried the primer only loads, and they were disappointing, I tried 3 in the contender, and each one got stuck in the bore. Easy enough to push out, but still no fun. I haven't tried magnum primers, but I think that experiment is done for now. I'll try a half a grain next time.

Try 22 cal pellets!

[Chev. William]

Deltaenterprises,
I read your ".221 Askins" Thread, all of it, and enjoyed the information presented.
Perhaps you will convert the information into suitable submission to "Ammoguide Interactive" to add the 221 Askins to their Cartridge Master Data Base.
Get the cartridge recorde with a case diagram and the Background history of it and your modern work in making a duplicate with what i available now.
Chev. William

[deltaenterprizes]

Deltaenterprises,
I read your ".221 Askins" Thread, all of it, and enjoyed the information presented.
Perhaps you will convert the information into suitable submission to "Ammoguide Interactive" to add the 221 Askins to their Cartridge Master Data Base.
Get the cartridge recorde with a case diagram and the Background history of it and your modern work in making a duplicate with what i available now.
Chev. William

I would not want to deprive No Zombies of any credit for actually finishing his project, but Col Askins did conceive the cartridge before any of us were a twinkle in our fathers eye!
I really like the second version that will work in magazines and possibly semi automatics!
Your Info about the rim of one case fitting into the extractor groove of the one below it was very helpful to me. I was planning a single shot rifle and maybe a revolver but with a reduced rim and deeper extractor groove possibilities are unlimited!lever actions, bolt actions and pump actions will be possible conversions also!
The initial cost of factory ammunition will be high but as it becomes more popular the cost will drop.

[Chev. William]

I would not want to deprive No Zombies of any credit for actually finishing his project, but Col Askins did conceive the cartridge before any of us were a twinkle in our fathers eye!
I really like the second version that will work in magazines and possibly semi automatics!
Your Info about the rim of one case fitting into the extractor groove of the one below it was very helpful to me. I was planning a single shot rifle and maybe a revolver but with a reduced rim and deeper extractor groove possibilities are unlimited!lever actions, bolt actions and pump actions will be possible conversions also!
The initial cost of factory ammunition will be high but as it becomes more popular the cost will drop.

In my Opinion, the ".221 Askins", the ".22 Ladybug", and the ".22 Ladybug Repeater" are three different (although very similar) cartridge Designs and executions.

From the information provided; it seems the ".221 Askins" was sized, and made, to use lead Heeled bullets 'Exactly' like the .22LR Rimfire but using a Centerfire primer.

Again from the Information provided; it seems the ".22 Ladybug" is designed, sized, and made to use inside lube .22 Lead bullets (no Heel) in a slightly larger, than .22LR rim and body, case. In my opinion, the ".22 Ladybug" is a Very Good, relatively easy to make, Cartridge design that will feed and fire in SOME repeaters And MOST single shot or manual single feed Actions.
Chambering is mostly done to date with 'chucking reamers' not dedicated Chambering reamers.

And further, it seems the ".22 Ladybug-Repeater" is designed with a .22LR rim Diameter and thickness, longer Extractor Clearance Cut (ECC) , and close to .22WRF Body diameter with an Inside lube bullet. The Rim and ECC make the cartridge compatible with multiple different magazine and semi-Automatic actions that may be easily converted To use of it.

There are a couple of 'hybrids' that may be considered later:
- A Case adapted to fit the Remington Mode 16 .22 Semi-Automatic rifle which used a .245" diameter Body .663" long with a 45 grain bullet. Drawing from Ammoguide.com http://ammoguide.com/gfx/ctgs/diag/sae/912.gif

- A Case adapted to the Winchester 1903 Semi-Automatic rifle which used a .250" diameter Body .665" long with a 45 grain bullet. Drawin gfrom Ammoguide.comhttp://ammoguide.com/gfx/ctgs/diag/sae/805.gif

Both of these variants can be made from the 'Ladybug' design with minor process changes.
They would require a modification to the particular rifles to CF from RF ignition; but I currently believe that could be done in a 'reversible manor' to retain collector value while allowing actual shooting with modern custom hand loads.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[deltaenterprizes]

I did not know that the 221 Askins used a heeled bullet, thanks for the info.
I was planning to use inside lubricated bullets also!
I just wanted to give credit to Askins for thinking of the concept first!

[Chev. William]

the Quotation of Col. Askins description of the development said he 'pulled .22LR bullets to use in his (wildcat)' Cartridges.
The .22LR uses a Heeled and Outside Lubed 40 grain Lead Bullet.

Both the Remington and Winchester Cartridges, I believe, used an Inside Lubed Bullet of .222" or .223" diameter.
Much 'cleaner' for cycling through the Semi-Automatic actions.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

.221 askins and 5.5 Velo Dog case Drawings.

I found what I believe to be sufficient information to make a Reconstruction drawing of both the 1935 '5.5 Velo Dog' and '.221 Askins' cartridge cases in my Auto CAD 2000 software.

222267 This is a drawing of both the 'parent' 5.5 Velo Dog and the .221 Askins derived from it and are based upon both Col. Askins comments as Quotedby others and upon information contained in "Textbook of Firearms Investigation, Identification and Evidence" by Major Julian S. Hatcher and Published by Small Arms Technical Publishing Company, copyrighted 1935.

I believe both cartridges used 'Small Pistol' Boxer Primers.

The 5.5 Velo Dog used a Jacketed 45 Grain bullet of .48" long, overall Cartridge length of 1.35" and Muzzle Velocity from 2" barrel of 760fps with Muzzle energy of 56 ft. lbs. Contemporary size information for bullet diameter indicates it was about .224".

The .221 Askins used either a 'pulled .22LR heeled bullet' or a Cast Lead 40 grain bullet (depending on which report by others you read), overall cartridge length of .995", case length of .613" (same as contemporary .22LR Rimfire) and loaded to best Target use velocities that cycled the Colt 'Woodsman' semi-automatic Target pistol that was modified to utilize the Cartridge. Again, contemporary size information for bullet diameter indicates it was of about .224" diameter.

The drawing was made using AutoCAD 2000 software and converted from .dwg format into a PDF file via CutePDF software.

I believe NoZombies has pretty much copied the .221 Askins, although slightly longer than the original, with his .22 Ladybug design IF it is left at the .250" diameter body stage. This is based upon the J.S.Hatcher information as to measured 5.5 Velo Dog case and cartridge dimensions.

The Possibility exists that Col. Askins used dies that resized the cases slightly smaller than this so perhaps .246" diameter is not improbable for .221 Askins as loaded by the Col.

Chev. William

[deltaenterprizes]

Thanks for the info!

[NoZombies]

I would not want to deprive No Zombies of any credit for actually finishing his project, but Col Askins did conceive the cartridge before any of us were a twinkle in our fathers eye!
I really like the second version that will work in magazines and possibly semi automatics!
Your Info about the rim of one case fitting into the extractor groove of the one below it was very helpful to me. I was planning a single shot rifle and maybe a revolver but with a reduced rim and deeper extractor groove possibilities are unlimited!lever actions, bolt actions and pump actions will be possible conversions also!
The initial cost of factory ammunition will be high but as it becomes more popular the cost will drop.

No worries, Charles Askins created something original that my project ends up being fairly similar to. I have long been aware of his efforts, and always thought it was a neat concept. In looking for information on it however, I couldn't find much useful other than a few anecdotes here and there, and a photo of the woodsman so converted.

In execution, the .221 Askins was made by cutting down Velo Dog brass in length, and making the rims to work, meaning that his final product most likely looked a lot like the ladybug repeater. I had started out with a larger rim diameter for use in single shot rifles, but after experimentation, ended up realizing that the .272-.278 rim diameter was just as functional in the single shots (no serious extraction problems with .22 single shots that I'm aware of) but opened up the possibility of magazine fed guns much more realistically.

I arrived at a similar answer to a different question than did Askins, and make it from different brass (since velo dog isn't readily available) but I suspect the end product is likely very similar.

[Chev. William]

Here are photos of my case forming dies.
The following views are of my dies for reducing .25ACP and similar body diameters down to .22 Ladybug body diameters:
222496
Top and side view of dies (tops tapped 1/2-20UNF)

222497
Bottom view of the homemade dies with the Left ones fitted with Drill Bushings and the rightmost one a machined blank body.

Also shown are a machined Blank die body ready for a Drill Bushing insertion and the 8" long 3/16" diameter Pin Punch I use to remove swaged cases form the dies. The punch working end had been modified with a slight taper and radius on the edge.

The following views are of my dies for forming 5.7x28mm and .22 Hornet down to .25ACP body diameters:
222499
222500
These dies are, from the Left, Lee opened Carbide Ring .25ACP Sizing Dies of .300", .288", .284", and .2785"; with the rightmost die a Hollywood Engineering Steel .25ACP sizing die.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Today "Ammoguide Interactive" added both the .221 Askins and the 5,5 Velodog cartridge to their Cartridge Master Database complete with case diagrams.

YEA!

Chev. William

[deltaenterprizes]

Nice work!
I made a post in the Gunsmithing section of the Home Shop Machinist and Practical Machinist sites to give No Zombies credit for all his hard work and ingunity and to get more people interested in the concept!

[Chev. William]

Redding does make Hardened Alloy Steel Bushings also TiN (Yellow) coated Bushings, in the size range I believe we can use, with .001" increments of ID measurements.
The OD is about .500" and the Length is About .375" with prices of $17, $26, and somewhat higher; depending on the ID it seems.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Some incentive to further develop toward a smaller diameter ".221 Askins Cf" to fit without reaming the chamber of a CF converted Ruger Standard Auto Pistol.

Chev. William

[Tripplebeards]

Love the cartridge and the concept! Hate the name. Sounds like it's directed towards women and little girls. If I owned one I would have to to call it something else. It would be like loving to ride a moped till I got caught on it.lol

Its a great job on the center fire set up!

Firefly, stink beetle, man of war, dragon fly, centipede, June bug, dung beetle, flea??? I'm reaching

Now make me one in a 22 wmr! The hornet is so close to it if loaded down though.

[Chev. William]

Love the cartridge and the concept! Hate the name. Sounds like it's directed towards women and little girls. If I owned one I would have to to call it something else. It would be like loving to ride a moped till I got caught on it.lol

Its a great job on the center fire set up!

Firefly, stink beetle, man of war, dragon fly, centipede, June bug, dung beetle, flea??? I'm reaching

Now make me one in a 22 wmr! The hornet is so close to it if loaded down though.

Well, the Originator of this thread did use his wife's Idea for the name so I guess it is something of a Joint and Coequal effort.
Ed Corbin and Mr. Eichenburg (sp?) already have 'dibs' on Flea, Dart, Nat, Fly, Ect. names as they used them first fo rtheir Sub caliber creations made from .25ACP, .32ACP, .38ACP and the like. in calibers from .10" through .22".
The Cooper Centerfire Magnum is a CF equivalent to the .22WMR and I understand Converted .22 Hornet Brass is again commercially available for the .22CCM cartridge.

As to the other names; have Fun and make a cartridge to use them on.

Chuckling,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

On August 9th I completed A California Firearms Purchase required wait and took Possession of a Used Ruger Standard Automatic MKII modified with Volquartsen Molded Rubber Target Grips.
It is fitted presently with the Standard tapered 4 plus inches Long Barrel and Fixed Sights.

My intent is to convert a Ebay Purchased MKIV Bolt to center fire to use with this pistol to do development of a version of the .22 Ladybug-Reloader cartridge or possibly an equivalent of the .221 Askins. I am already working on gathering parts for fitting it with an adjustable Rear sight and new Front blade sight.
After I am Happy with the Developments, perhaps i will see about Replacing the barrel with a longer .25 ACP one and custom magazines to make it into a functional .25ACP Target Pistol.

I can also switch the Modified MKIV bolt from this pistol to the other Ruger Standard Auto pistol I own to shoot CF .22 Rounds through its 6" Bull barrel this one is fitted with a Target adjustable rear sight already and it has walnut grips for comparison shooting.

The Purchase took most of my State Income Tax Refund this year, so the work will be delayed for a time while my finances recover.

Chev. William

[Hahndorf1874]

Chev,
Try castor oil as a sizing lube works a treat!

Cheers Mal in au.

[Chev. William]

September brought some money so I ordered five more PT&G blank die bodies to machine to fit the Redding sizing bushings I bought to form Cases.

I expect them to arrive in a few days now.
Chev. William
.

[mattw]

I am not sure how many times I have read this thread, at least 3... I really want to own one of these on a contender platform. I have a bunch of new 25 acp brass and once fired FN brass but I do not have a lathe and do not have the skill to make the dies. Do you think this will ever hit the stage that one could actually buy the stuff to run this as a reloader reproducible round?

[Chev. William]

Possible Expensive Way:
Custom order a full set of Forming and reloading dies for the Design.
This means both the Full set of forming dies required to get the case to finished size Plus a full set of Reloading dies for the finished Wildcat cartridge.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

The PT&G Blank die bodies arrived Saturday, but I had a "Problem" occur; I had gone out to "Tam-o-Shanter" Restaurant in Glendale, CA for a Celebratory Brunch of Prime Rib, Creamed Corn, and Mashed potatoes followed by a Strawberry Shortcake in a Glass topped with a candle, to celebrate my upcoming 76th birthday Anniversary.
Upon leaving, I tripped on a parking Stop block and fell forward, injuring myself.
Cut Lip, bent Glasses, 'Raspberry abrasions' on my forearms and Right knee, and a sore Left Chest.
Then I found out my Friend with The Special Effects Shop is going to take his first vacation in decades and go driving North to Vancouver,WA to visit relatives and friends. so I will not be able to start machining until his return in about three weeks.

I also bought of Ebay a Ruger MK1 Bolt assembly in 'broken condition'. the Recoil spring assembly was broken, the firing pin retaining pin was sheared in half with the sheared Ends showing deep wear (reduced diameter).
Interesting that the MK1 did NOT use a firing pin retraction spring.
The MK2, 3, and 4 DO use a retraction spring.
The recoil assembly is easily replaced, and I probably will us a Volquartsen kit for that.
I believe the firing pin retaining pin is also easily replaced via a part order to Ruger.

Now, should I modify this MK1 Bolt assembly for CF use or not?

I did order a pair of 3/4" ID Drill bushings to use as gauges for measuring bolt body firing pin channel depths so they will probably come this week.

Chev. William

[woodbutcher]

:sad:Hi Chev-William.Hope you are doing well after your accident.BTDT a few times over the years.It ain``t fun and games for sure.Post updates as you are able.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Chev. William]

Thanks for the Sentiment, I think I am healing as can be expected at this time of my Life.
My Left chest is still sore enough to like two 'Tynol' (sp?) caplets before Bed to get some sleep.

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

I've been offline for a while taking care of some stuff, and haven't been working much on this project, but I had a birthday a few weeks ago, and took the excuse to have some me time in the shop, and assembled and modified some parts I had ordered to create this:

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/SW-1.JPG
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/SW-2.JPG


It started life as a police traded 15-4, and It's been kicking around in the safe and used for a coupe of experiments over the last several years. The barrel is from a model 48, and the cylinder is from a 617. I cut a relief on the rear of the cylinder to clear the frame lug, modified the ratchet and hand to give proper timing, carry up and lock, and reamed the chambers to accept the ladybug cartridge.

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/SW-3.JPG

It turns out the original rim relief is large enough that the .310 max rim diameter of the original ladybug still works in the gun, so I can actually use either the original or repeater brass with equal effect.

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/SW-4.JPG

I haven't had a chance to test the accuracy yet, but the test firing went well. Hopefully in October I'll make it to the range.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I've been offline for a while taking care of some stuff, and haven't been working much on this project, but I had a birthday a few weeks ago, and took the excuse to have some me time in the shop, and assembled and modified some parts I had ordered to create this:

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/SW-1.JPG
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/SW-2.JPG


It started life as a police traded 15-4, and It's been kicking around in the safe and used for a coupe of experiments over the last several years. The barrel is from a model 48, and the cylinder is from a 617. I cut a relief on the rear of the cylinder to clear the frame lug, modified the ratchet and hand to give proper timing, carry up and lock, and reamed the chambers to accept the ladybug cartridge.

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/SW-3.JPG

It turns out the original rim relief is large enough that the .310 max rim diameter of the original ladybug still works in the gun, so I can actually use either the original or repeater brass with equal effect.

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/SW-4.JPG

I haven't had a chance to test the accuracy yet, but the test firing went well. Hopefully in October I'll make it to the range.


Great work!

Can't wait to see how she shoots.

[Chev. William]

NoZombies,
Lovely Revolver customization.
Now you have a 'nonsuppressed' handgun to work on loads with.
By the way, what is the Barrel Length and the Cylinder Length?
Chev. William

[NoZombies]

NoZombies,
Lovely Revolver customization.
Now you have a 'nonsuppressed' handgun to work on loads with.
By the way, what is the Barrel Length and the Cylinder Length?
Chev. William

It's a 6" barrel, and I believe the standard K-frame Cyl length is 1.67(ish).

So far, it seems about the same noise, or a little less than a K-22 with SV ammo. It's not quite hearing safe, but it's not offensively loud.

[rking22]

Very nice, looming forward to the range day report!

[Chev. William]

Mid October here after a 'light rain' (so far .33 Inches since October 1st) and a update on my "Healing": the abrasion scabs have all fallen off now, my Left chest is still 'uncomfortable' if pressed, but I am not taking anything now to sleep as it does not wake me if I roll onto my Left side anymore.

I did get into my Friends Shop to try machining the two mandrels I think I need to trim the displaced Brass from above the rims of my potential Ladybug wildcat cases; but i find that I have Problems with my Material selection vs my friends tooling available.

I chose to start with two sizes of Drill Blanks, 1/4" and 3/8", and used Carbide replaceable tip tools to 'turn' the 1/4" drill blank end down to about 3/16" for about 1.3" to fit inside the formed case.
This went slowly as the Lathe complained if I took more than ten thousandths off in a single cut.
I polished the machined end with a strip of Crocus Cloth abrasive so it is smooth to the touch.

Then I chucked up one 3/8" drill blank and started in on reducing the end as a future chucking spigot from 3/8" down to 5/16" and found myself wishing for heavier carbide tooling but got the spigot done.
Then came trying to part off The beginning mandrel to reverse it in the chuck to machine the working end. NO GO! my friend only had H.S.S. cutoff Tools and the Drill blank would not cut with them, in fact the drill blank 'machined' the cutoff tool tip instead!

Now I need to find and buy a Replaceable Carbide tip Cutoff tool Holder and tips to use in his lathe.

Chev. William

[woodbutcher]

:smile:Hi Chev William.You might try"Grizzly".
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Chev. William]

My Friend with The Special Effects shop got a Carbide Replaceable Tip Cutoff tool and a pack of ten tips via Amazon yesterday so he 'covered' the tooling problem for me.
Now to wait for Time Available on his lathe again.
Chev. William

[NoZombies]

This morning I had some errands I needed to run, and the time to get them done, so I loaded the car up, and tossed the contender in .22 LB in the trunk as well.

After going to the post office, and bringing some gas to my mother to keep the generator going while she waits for power to be restored after the hurricane last week, I set up on the 50 yard range, but I forgot to bring my rest, so I was elbow resting on the bench.

I only had enough ammo loaded up to shoot 8 groups, but I was pretty pleased that including fliers, I still didn't have a group over 3/4"CTC at 50 yards.

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/8targets.JPG

They're all the same load, which has proven to be pretty good. I'll work on other loads in the not too distant future, but consistency is a big part of what I want from the gun and cartridge, so the largest groups it shoots are as important to me as the smallest.

[Chev. William]

Sunday Afternoon I got some time on my friends Shop Lathe ad Tried out the Carbide tip Cutoff Tool on my Drill Blank material beginning mandrel with very disappointing results; Carbide doesn't seem to cut these 'M2' Drill Blanks well at all. All I got for three inserts was a grove about 1/16" deep on the .375" diameter blank. First Insert did not even 'polish the Blank before shattering. The second insert last e a little better, actually 'polishing the Surface before Shattering. The third insert actually did cut very slowly and survived the attempt without damage; but as I said it only very slowly cut to .062 inch depth before i gave up the attempt as I had to return home.

chev. William

[Traffer]

@Chev William
I don't know the kind of precision you need on your parting , however, I use a Dremel type tool with a little diamond wheel. I cut carbide with them.
229264 229265

[Chev. William]

for the amount of cost in dies, etc. why is it not simply to simply hit the 25acp case with a .223 die or hornet die?

How? The .25ACP starts out .278" diameter by .615" long maximum dimensions.
The .22 Hornet and .223 Are Bottleneck cartridges that are both longer and larger in diameter.

In fact, I have Swaged Down .22 Hornet to .276"-.278" diameter for use as 'parent' to my .25 Cal Mildcats.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

@Chev William
I don't know the kind of precision you need on your parting , however, I use a Dremel type tool with a little diamond wheel. I cut carbide with them.
229264 229265

Good Idea, I will look into obtaining the diamond cut off wheels and arbor.
Chev. William

[NoZombies]

for the amount of cost in dies, etc. why is it not simply to simply hit the 25acp case with a .223 die or hornet die?
I'm not sure what you're asking. I have very little cost in my dies, just mostly time. those dies wouldn't get you anywhere close to the ladybug dimensions without at a minimum serious modifications.


How? The .25ACP starts out .278" diameter by .615" long maximum dimensions.
The .22 Hornet and .223 Are Bottleneck cartridges that are both longer and larger in diameter.

In fact, I have Swaged Down .22 Hornet to .276"-.278" diameter fo ruse as 'parent to my .25 Cal Mildcats.

Chev. William

Indeed...

[Mk42gunner]

I've been away from Cast Boolits for quite a while; no real reason, I think I just got bored. Anyway on with the comment:

I have a Stevens .44 shot that I bought with the express intent to rebarrel it to .32 S&W Long which hasn't happened yet, (boredom is insidious). I like the idea of this Ladybug cartridge for it since one of the reasons for procrastination is the fact that I will have to make a new extractor for whatever cartridge I go with, unless I make it a .38 WCF which is just a bit bigger than I want for a small game/ plinking rifle.

I also have a tiny little Craftsman lathe that I need to learn how to operate.

Robert

[scotth]

has anybody talked to ch4d to see what a case forming die set would cost. i really like what you have done with this cartridge.

[Chev. William]

I've been away from Cast Boolits for quite a while; no real reason, I think I just got bored. Anyway on with the comment:

I have a Stevens .44 shot that I bought with the express intent to rebarrel it to .32 S&W Long which hasn't happened yet, (boredom is insidious). I like the idea of this Ladybug cartridge for it since one of the reasons for procrastination is the fact that I will have to make a new extractor for whatever cartridge I go with, unless I make it a .38 WCF which is just a bit bigger than I want for a small game/ plinking rifle.

I also have a tiny little Craftsman lathe that I need to learn how to operate.

Robert

Robert,
A few Questions:
1. What Model/type is your Stevens .44 Shot Rifle?
2. Is it one which is designed for "take down", or use of Interchangeable Barrels?

If it is a "Take Down" type, the change is much easier.

3. What size/model/material handling dimensions is your "tiny little Craftsman lathe?

The material Handling dimensions of the Lathe will dictate what you can actually turn/machine using it without going to extreme custom tool extension/ modifications.
chev. William

[Chev. William]

has anybody talked to ch4d to see what a case forming die set would cost. i really like what you have done with this cartridge.

As to Myself Alone, I have not yet contacted CH4D, or any other Die Makers for a Full set of forming dies for any of my projects. I am Retired on what is increasingly limited Retirement Annuity payments form Social Security, Military Retirement, and VA Disability sources. My Taxes, Fuel, Food, and Utility charges and Fees keep outpacing any 'cost of living' increases I have received to date. So the 'left over funds' keep shrinking.

Chev. William

[scotth]

i have interest in both the ladybug and yours chev i just dont want too make my own dies sets if ch4d could make them it might bring more interest to these cartridges.

[Traffer]

Robert,
A few Questions:
1. What Model/type is your Stevens .44 Shot Rifle?
2. Is it one which is designed for "take down", or use of Interchangeable Barrels?

If it is a "Take Down" type, the change is much easier.

3. What size/model/material handling dimensions is your "tiny little Craftsman lathe?

The material Handling dimensions of the Lathe will dictate what you can actually turn/machine using it without going to extreme custom tool extension/ modifications.
chev. William

Many small lathes have the capability of turning barrels. The limiting factor is the through hole in the chuck and spindle. I have a Harbor Freight 7x10" lathe with a 5/8 through hole. It is possible to ream this hole to 7/8 on this model, I just haven't done it yet.

[Chev. William]

i have interest in both the ladybug and yours chev i just dont want too make my own dies sets if ch4d could make them it might bring more interest to these cartridges.

CH4D does advertise that they will make custom die sets upon special order; so You could ask for a Price Quote form them for appropriate forming die sets.
I believe Lee Will also; but prefer a Production run size order unless it is only a modification to a normal production die, such as "opening" their .25ACP Carbide Sizing die to a larger Sizing diameter (I believe they also will do that on other calibers).
Lee did make me a Long body, none crimping Seating die for my Long .25 Caliber Wildcats as a single custom order die made from a 'Standard' Seating/crimping die body with the crimp 'step' machined out.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Many small lathes have the capability of turning barrels. The limiting factor is the through hole in the chuck and spindle. I have a Harbor Freight 7x10" lathe with a 5/8 through hole. It is possible to ream this hole to 7/8 on this model, I just haven't done it yet.

I agree.
I have read, and Marveled at, modelers who have made 3/4" and 1" to the foot scale Live steam Locomotives using an EMCO "Unimat" Lathe and A Bunch of Custom home built tooling, jigs and holding fixtures to accomplish it, and one did it in a 'Closet' space in his home in Japan!
Chev. William

[Mk42gunner]

Robert,
A few Questions:
1. What Model/type is your Stevens .44 Shot Rifle? I believe it is the Model 101, not 100% certain its not marked.
2. Is it one which is designed for "take down", or use of Interchangeable Barrels?Yes the barrel is easily (now, I had to fix a dent that kept the barrel from freely sliding out) removable by way of the thumbscrew. As stated unless I want to stay with something based on the .44 WCF rim size, I will need to make a new extractor. Incidentally .444 Marlin cases cut to less than two inches work perfectly for improvised .44 shot cases. Two inch .410 (which is so rare as to be made of unobtainium in the U.S.) may work, but it is an awful tiny gun for "It may work" I'm not going to be the one that tries it.

If it is a "Take Down" type, the change is much easier.

3. What size/model/material handling dimensions is your "tiny little Craftsman lathe? It is a 6x18 I don't remember the exact model, I think it was actually made by Dunlap. It has no hole through the headstock and 18" is a bit shorter than the barrel I envision, the shot barrel is 26" and I would like to get somewhat close.

The material Handling dimensions of the Lathe will dictate what you can actually turn/machine using it without going to extreme custom tool extension/ modifications.
chev. William

I just don't want to spend the money for a real lathe long enough to actually work on rifle barrels, no more than I would use it. I think one of my high school classmates has a lathe in his farm shop, if it comes down to it I will give him a call.

Robert

[Chev. William]

A 6x18 inch lathe is definitely a 'small' lathe size but not 'tiny' as both the 'Unimat' (at 3x12") is small and Watchmaker lathes, at around 1-1/2x6", would be more likely 'tiny'.
Note that if you can remove the tail-stock and mount a Full Steady Rest fitted with three roller tipped material guides, you could hold a Blank barrel in the Head-stock chuck and let the extra length extend past the tail end of your lathe, turning one end first then reversing the blank and turning the other end.
This would leave two 'unturned stub ends' to be removed and the Finish Work to be done using hand tools and a barrel vice setup.
By Finish Work, I am referring to reaming the chamber and crowning the muzzle, among other things.
If you plan it correctly, you could make it an 'Insert Barrel Adapter' longer than your shot barrel and thread the Muzzle end for a clamping sleeve nut to hold it in your shot barrel without damage, perhaps using a cone faced Brass washer between nut and shot barrel muzzle to protect the Barrel Crown and Bore from being damaged in tightening the nut.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

John Taylor of Taylor Machine in WA now has my Ruger MKII pistol Receiver, my roughly 8 inch long LW 25ACP/6,35 Browning Barrel Blank Remanent, my .25ACP WS chamber Reamer (straight cylinder Body of .2795" diameter), an da Sample "Takeoff" MKI tapered Ruger barrel along with my MKII Bolt assembly.
He is going to machine the Blank into a roughly 8" tapered Barrel to fit the Ruger Receiver; and also give me an estimate on converting the Bolt from RF to CF.

So, my MKII Ruger Standard Auto Pistol is going to be a .25ACP Pistol eventually.

I will need to obtain and Cut up some Beretta .25ACP magazines to make into magazines to fit the Ruger Handle and have the correct feed lips geometry to work with the Converted Bolt and receiver.
It looks like Beretta 950 mags have a base cover tha tis too large for the Ruger handle bottom but might work other wise.
There is a Beretta 'Bobcat' .25ACP mag that seems to have a smaller base cover that I may try also.
It will take at least two Beretta 8-round mags to make one long enough to fit the Ruger Auto properly.

Then there is the Form Block to make for forming the feed lips, and the Weld jig pieces to hold the bodies in alignment while welding them together again.
The Weld jig will need to be made from Copper bar so that the inside weld bead is minimized and won't stick to the Copper bar.

Perhaps a three layer Sandwich to ease removal?

NOTE: the Bolts seem to be interchangeable between MKI, MKII, MKIII, and MKIV if you ignore the added 'features' of the later models. All are 3/4" OD minus clearance; as they slide easily in a 3/4" Drill Bushing.

I think I can use aftermarket recoil spring assemblies with inter changeable springs as part of the Tuning to get proper functioning of the Completed Pistol but if needed I could add Tungsten Weight 'Washers' to the back of the bolt to add Reciprocating Mass to it. This will require drill and tap of the Bolt rear face.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

John Taylor emailed me with a Progress Report:

- My Bolt is completed as A CF conversion.
- He made a new CF Firing Pin from Pre-hardened Spring Steel.
- My .25ACP Barrel is machined.
- he has assembled my .25ACP barrel-Ruger Receiver-CF bolt assembly onto his Grip frame and Test fired them!

This is Very Good News for my Thanksgiving Holiday!

Best Regards to All on this Thanksgiving 2018 Holiday!!!
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I received Back my converted Bolt with Receiver and fitted .25ACP 8-1/8" barrel along with my custom cylindrical .2794" diameter body Finish Chamber Reamer and my two 4-2/4" 'Takeoff' barrels Monday.

Sadly, I learned from my Local Gun Shop and gunsmith that Current California Laws And Regulations define an Assembled Semi-Auto Pistol with a threaded Muzzle as an "Assault Weapon" subject to FELONY charges; so I intend to machine off the muzzle threads BEFORE assembling the pistol.

I hope to get time on my friend's lathe this weekend if our schedules allow. My friend is currently working on a Series show production and has been getting 12 plus hour 'days' so far.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Finally, Photos:
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/Ruger%2025ACP%20Standard%20Auto%20MKII%208%20inch% 20Barrel/1132a89e-68c0-4733-b5f3-1cc6f8507482_zpsfax2euw1.jpg
The Modified Bolt Face. Note the enlarged Rim rebate to fit the .25ACP rim and the Centered round firing pin tip.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/Ruger%2025ACP%20Standard%20Auto%20MKII%208%20inch% 20Barrel/dea93ba0-c689-49c1-94b9-47faab8563de_zpsjmpo81nu.jpg
The top view of the Bolt with recoil assembly removed to show the new firing pin in its channel.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/Ruger%2025ACP%20Standard%20Auto%20MKII%208%20inch% 20Barrel/689ba1d1-360a-40e6-b683-ccdf682b8b0a_zpsysgn9g92.jpg
Left side of Modified MKII pistol with its new ~8" Barrel.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/Ruger%2025ACP%20Standard%20Auto%20MKII%208%20inch% 20Barrel/0d25132f-0c8d-444d-92ee-414db2a33622_zpsn4jgp6ay.jpg
Right side of Modified MKII pistol wiht its ~8" long Barrel.

These Photos were taken by my Friend with a Camera that has a "Macro" Photo Capability.

Chev. William

[Traffer]

@Chev William
Wow is that cool!
Can you make a video of you firing it? Would love to see those .25 cases fly out of that thing.

[Chev. William]

I do not know if my Local Commercial Ranges will allow taking Videos/Photos at their active firing lines.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Thursday, December 27th, my Special Effects Friend and I took a "Range Day" for some Testing an Fun and Relaxation.

I took both my .25ACP conversion Ruger MKII Auto Pistol and my .22LR Pre-mark Ruger auto Pistol along to compare.

Both were fired as 'Single Shot' without magazines inserted.
- The .25ACP and the .22LR seemed to eject to the same area and the bolts appeared to 'recoil' about the same.
- The Muzzle rise was about the same for both pistols.
- Shooting 'Standing Off Hand' both seemed to 'pattern' about the same at 50 yards, they both are more accurate than I am, it seems.
Initially At 7 yards, the .25ACP sights, using a 6 O'clock sight picture, had POI above and left of POA. 3 clicks of Windage adjustment brought POI over to above POA. I found that the Sight had an "Allen" socket head and I did not have a suitable tool with me to adjust elevation. That afternoon i took the Pistol to my gunsmith and he looked through his 'Spare Parts box' and found a slot head screw to exchange.

Next time out to the range, I will adjust elevation to bring POI and POA together.

Overall, I am Very Pleased with this conversion to date.
So far I have about $862 total invested in it, including purchase cost and the Conversion work.
I still need to make .25ACP magazines to feed it.

Chev. William

[GWarden]

Thanks for sharing your photos and info on a very interesting little cartridge. Appreciate the time and effort you put into this project.
bob

[Kuffar]

Can you neck it down to .17?

Just kidding. Awesome work!

Since red ladybugs, have been replaced with those biting, orange *itchbugs, around here, that .17 chambering could be named for the orange ones. The .17 *itchbug.

[Chev. William]

Since red ladybugs, have been replaced with those biting, orange *itchbugs, around here, that .17 chambering could be named for the orange ones. The .17 *itchbug.

Chuckling,
I guess necking the "Ladybug" down to .172", or .177", is theoretically possible; but I wonder why not neck the .25ACP case down to .177" like others have done in the Past, making a bottle necked Cartridge?

Or did you mean to make a Straight wall Center Fire .177 cartridge, which, if I have the correct dimensions, would be about .197 body diameter. This would leave about .011" wall to the Primer pocket, so it would need to remain a Rimmed design.

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

Lest anyone worry, I have a few more tricks up my sleeve with the ladybug. I hope to be posting a few more projects I've been working on for a while.

[rking22]

Any progress on the M67? That should be really cool! The K frame makes me think a M53 shooter grade needs to join my heard:bigsmyl2:

[NoZombies]

Any progress on the M67? That should be really cool! The K frame makes me think a M53 shooter grade needs to join my heard:bigsmyl2:

That's one of the projects I'm trying to finish up.. :)

[Rookandrabbit]

I have read this thread with intense fascination. This is my first post. I am a long time reader of the forum but enjoyed it so much I had to join and thank everybody for such an interesting subject. Special thanks go out to No Zombies and Chev William. Both of you are very technically minded way beyond what I can grasp at times. I know you both referred to Col. Askins and his .22 centrefire and how he won many competitions prior to a rule change using modified .22 velodog cases. I know of a very old British rook cartridge called .220 Rook (.220 long centrefire.) and wondered how similar they were. I know the bigger 29/230 Morris cartridge can be made from .22 hornet but is bottlenecked.

[NoZombies]

I have read this thread with intense fascination. This is my first post. I am a long time reader of the forum but enjoyed it so much I had to join and thank everybody for such an interesting subject. Special thanks go out to No Zombies and Chev William. Both of you are very technically minded way beyond what I can grasp at times. I know you both referred to Col. Askins and his .22 centrefire and how he won many competitions prior to a rule change using modified .22 velodog cases. I know of a very old British rook cartridge called .220 Rook (.220 long centrefire.) and wondered how similar they were. I know the bigger 29/230 Morris cartridge can be made from .22 hornet but is bottlenecked.

Thanks for joining in!

I've seen references to the .220 rook cartridge, but I've never seen one in the flesh.The only entry I can find that gives dimensions would seem to indicate it is pretty close dimensionally to the ladybug. The ladybug case is slightly shorter, and the .220 rook must have had slightly thinner brass. The rim diameter and thickness are the same, and the OAL is about the same as well.

I actually own a rook rifle that was originally chambered for the .220 rook cartridge, but was sadly relined to another caliber before I got it. I've been considering converting it back to a ladybug...

[Rookandrabbit]

I have also never seen an example of the .220 Rook centrefire have only seen them referenced in Bill Flemmings book British sporting cartridges. I think the older rifles are great fun but I have been amazed at what you and Chev William have done. Your idea for the ladybug cartridge is fantastic, and sounds very versatile accurate and most importantly great fun. I look forward to seeing how your projects progress in 2019, a rook rifle converted back to its original caliber with a modern liner....Wow superb!. P.s. if you get a chance more photographs..... also amazed at how a small variance in lube or half a grain could alter point of impact.Thanks again, Rookandrabbit.

[Chev. William]

I have read this thread with intense fascination. This is my first post. I am a long time reader of the forum but enjoyed it so much I had to join and thank everybody for such an interesting subject. Special thanks go out to No Zombies and Chev William. Both of you are very technically minded way beyond what I can grasp at times. I know you both referred to Col. Askins and his .22 centrefire and how he won many competitions prior to a rule change using modified .22 velodog cases. I know of a very old British rook cartridge called .220 Rook (.220 long centrefire.) and wondered how similar they were. I know the bigger 29/230 Morris cartridge can be made from .22 hornet but is bottlenecked.

Welcome to the Forum!
I have not heard nor read anything about a ".220 Rook (.220 long centrefire.)" until you mentioned it in your 'first post'.
It sounds intriguing as a CF early alternative for the RF .22 Long or .22 Long Rifle cartridges.

January and February have been Financially 'tight' for me and it looks like March will be similar.
Plus the Wet, Cold, and Breezy weather Around here has prevented any outdoor Reloading Shop activity here.

NOE has again promised to schedule making my Ordered five cavity TL255-65-RF mold; so I will be holding back money to pay for this order again.

Chev. William

[Rookandrabbit]

Thanks Chev William I look forward to your updates. The .220 centrefire Rook cartridge is a very early British cartridge made in England by Eley. I have only seen them in reference books and they are quite rare but the idea of a modern steel light weight quiet,accurate,single shot rifle in .22 Centrefire is fascinating. I am not as technically gifted as you and No Zombies,are but I have followed this thread and not being an engineer tried to keep up.Thanks again Rookandrabbit.

[Rookandrabbit]

I forgot to add there is an entry showing this cartridge on cartridge collector.net I am sorry but don’t know how to paste a link! Thanks Rookandrabbit.

[Chev. William]

I forgot to add there is an entry showing this cartridge on cartridge collector.net I am sorry but don’t know how to paste a link! Thanks Rookandrabbit.

Is this the website you were referring to ?
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/220-rook-220-long-centrefire

Chev. William

[Rookandrabbit]

Yes that’s the one and it looks to the photograph of the cartridge. I could not work out how to get the link. Thanks Chev William for sorting it. It is a very old and rare centrefire British Rook rifle cartridge

[NoZombies]

It does look a lot like the .22 ladybug.

I'll see if I can pull out my little rook rifle that was originally so chambered and get a photo before long.

[Chev. William]

March is rolling in Here with Rain and Cold Winds; so I was looking on Ebay and found two Marlin .22RF Microgroove barrels for sale cheap. Impulse Buys got them both!
One has arrived already! It appears to have conventional rifling instead of Microgroove rifling, with six wide grooves between Narrow Lands. It is 24" long with both sights installed still, shiny Bore with clean rifling, rough to feel but reasonable visually exterior. The Blue finish is worn and may have been sopt rusted at one time. It is marked ".22 Long Rifle only Smokeless Greased" on the left side beside the rear sight. I think this one will be trimmed and threaded to fit a 'Spud" for one of my Stevens 'Favorite' actions and the chamber reamed to fit either, or both, .22 Ladybug or .221 Askins CF cartridges (Both made from .25ACP cases).
It supposedly is from a Marlin A1 rifle. It Cost me $30.00!

the other one was $32+ due to shipping charges. the second one is due for delivery this afternoon.

Chev. William

[Traffer]

March is rolling in Here with Rain and Cold Winds; so I was looking on Ebay and found two Marlin .22RF Microgroove barrels for sale cheap. Impulse Buys got them both!
One has arrived already! It appears to have conventional rifling instead of Microgroove rifling, with six wide grooves between Narrow Lands. It is 24" long with both sights installed still, shiny Bore with clean rifling, rough to feel but reasonable visually exterior. The Blue finish is worn and may have been sopt rusted at one time. It is marked ".22 Long Rifle only Smokeless Greased" on the left side beside the rear sight. I think this one will be trimmed and threaded to fit a 'Spud" for one of my Stevens 'Favorite' actions and the chamber reamed to fit either, or both, .22 Ladybug or .221 Askins CF cartridges (Both made from .25ACP cases).
It supposedly is from a Marlin A1 rifle. It Cost me $30.00!

the other one was $32+ due to shipping charges. the second one is due for delivery this afternoon.

Chev. William

Yup I bought 3 Marlin 22lr barrels on eBay. The first one had pitting and I messaged the guy about it. So he sent me another one free... looks new . I couldn't do that to him so I sent him another $20 But I got two barrels for $40. Both the old Marlin 66 longer barrel version. I already rechamered the pitted one to 22WMR and polished out the pits. I figured it couldn't hurt to have the bore a bit bigger for 22WMR. I thought about drilling one out for a 38 S&W and trying my hand at rifling but that's a lot of work. Probably never get around to it. I with they could sell receivers on eBay. That would be fun.

[Chev. William]

Ebay has a "rule" that is sometimes Breached by sellers; and buyers take advantage of the 'Breech'!
Ebay also has a 'Rule " that denies selling any Magazine with a capacity over ten rounds, which is also mostly Ignored by Sellers and Ebay.

Nowadays they are 'trying' a captive Purchase system that does NOT include PayPal at all. Only one way to pay, enter Your credit card Information!

I have made two purchases under this system, using a Credit Card with a very low balance just in case it is a Scam.
so far neither Purchase has Arrived and one of them was due today.

Chev. William

[Traffer]

Ebay has a "rule" that is sometimes Breached by sellers; and buyers take advantage of the 'Breech'!
Ebay also has a 'Rule " that denies selling any Magazine with a capacity over ten rounds, which is also mostly Ignored by Sellers and Ebay.

Nowadays they are 'trying' a captive Purchase system that does NOT include PayPal at all. Only one way to pay, enter Your credit card Information!

I have made two purchases under this system, using a Credit Card with a very low balance just in case it is a Scam.
so far neither Purchase has Arrived and one of them was due today.

Chev. William

It is normal to be nervous about a new system. I wouldn't worry about getting items you purchase but rather what is the system all about, how does it work and where are the hidden caveats. I had not heard about this new thing. When Paypal started being the ruling bank on eBay I was outraged. I am still against a monopoly on the interest yadayada. But no other banks stepped up so ...their loss. I proposed a possible system for Bank of America to be able to be a player there to one of their higher officers and they were not interested so...
I am actually pretty happy with the governance of eBay so far. They seem to be fairly down to earth about the whole process. It could be much better but it is very good right now. I buy everything I can on eBay and regularly find incredible deals. Just recently I found a sale for a lot of 10 hand reamers at .2242" for under $16.50. These reamers would sell for $40 per if purchased somewhere else. So $400 worth of tools for $16.50? As I said I get most of my stuff on eBay. Linens for our bed to tooling for machining to reading glasses. If the item is not cheaper than somewhere else I don't buy it. I recently also bought a .2242" drill block for around $5. You know what those go for. The only problem is supply and demand. I started using eBay while being a Personal Computer technician. Buying all my computer parts there. I found that if something had great appeal the auctions might go higher than what you could buy it for at your local store. It seems that this is now beginning to happen with reloading tools. It used to be you could get reloading stuff for pennies on the dollar. Now that everyone has caught on the stuff is going for higher prices than you can get it through a distributor.
Oh well I ramble.
Bottom line...eBay is pretty good about protecting customers, your delayed items are probably just being held up in shipping.

[Chev. William]

Well, the Current one I am watching was reported Scheduled for Delivery on March 11th but as the Tracking history shows it ARRIVED in Los Angeles, CA on the 11th, NOT at my local Post Office!
"March 11, 2019, 12:04 pm
Arrived at USPS Regional Destination Facility
LOS ANGELES CA NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER
Your item arrived at our LOS ANGELES CA NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER destination facility on March 11, 2019 at 12:04 pm. The item is currently in transit to the destination.
March 9, 2019
In Transit to Next Facility
March 5, 2019, 6:45 pm
Arrived at USPS Regional Origin Facility
DES MOINES IA NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER
March 4, 2019, 3:50 pm
Departed Post Office
ADRIAN, MO 64720
March 4, 2019, 10:33 am
USPS in possession of item
ADRIAN, MO 64720
March 1, 2019, 9:27 pm
Shipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting Item
ADRIAN, MO 64720 "
Ebay is still displaying:
"It's on the way.
Shipped Done Mon, Mar 4 Done In transit Done Out for delivery Estimated delivery Mon, Mar 11".
So i wonder if it wil be deivered to my regional distribution Center (Santa Clarity) or my Local Post office (Burbank/Sun Valley) today or tomorrow?
Or perhaps sent to the East Coast for another run through the system?

I have had that Happen three times, one in each of the last three years.

We will see what happens later today.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Well, the Current one I am watching was reported Scheduled for Delivery on March 11th but as the Tracking history shows it ARRIVED in Los Angeles, CA on the 11th, NOT at my local Post Office!
"March 11, 2019, 12:04 pm
Arrived at USPS Regional Destination Facility
LOS ANGELES CA NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER
Your item arrived at our LOS ANGELES CA NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER destination facility on March 11, 2019 at 12:04 pm. The item is currently in transit to the destination.
March 9, 2019
In Transit to Next Facility
March 5, 2019, 6:45 pm
Arrived at USPS Regional Origin Facility
DES MOINES IA NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER
March 4, 2019, 3:50 pm
Departed Post Office
ADRIAN, MO 64720
March 4, 2019, 10:33 am
USPS in possession of item
ADRIAN, MO 64720
March 1, 2019, 9:27 pm
Shipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting Item
ADRIAN, MO 64720 "
Ebay is still displaying:
"It's on the way.
Shipped Done Mon, Mar 4 Done In transit Done Out for delivery Estimated delivery Mon, Mar 11".
So i wonder if it wil be deivered to my regional distribution Center (Santa Clarity) or my Local Post office (Burbank/Sun Valley) today or tomorrow?
Or perhaps sent to the East Coast for another run through the system?

I have had that Happen three times, one in each of the last three years.

We will see what happens later today.
Chev. William

The Second Marlin .22LR Barrel was delivered late March 13th evening, two days late according to USPS estimate of delivery.
It Did arrive in "Los Angeles" on the 11th. from there to Santa Clarita, to Burbank, To Sun Valley, then to my home took an added Two days.

It is a model 60 used barrel complete with the pin that attached it to the receiver. The Bore is dark and may be filled with "Crud". The Exterior is rusty for about half the length, but it is roll stamped with "Microgroove" so I assume under the "crud' is some fine lands and grooves closely spaced.

It looks like the First project is cleaning the Bore out.
And the second project is using some 0000 Steel Wool on the Exterior to see how it cleans up.

Chev. William

[Traffer]

The Second Marlin .22LR Barrel was delivered late March 13th evening, two days late according to USPS estimate of delivery.
It Did arrive in "Los Angeles" on the 11th. frm there to Santa Clarita, to Burbank, To Sun Valley, then to my home took an added Two days.

It is a model 60 used barrel complete with the pin that attached it to the receiver. The Bore ris dark and may be filled with "Crud". The Exterior is rusty for about half the length, but it is roll stamped with "Microgroove" so iI assume under the "crud' is some fine lands and grooves closely spaced.

It looks like the First project is cleaning the Bore out.
And the second project is using some 0000 Steel Wool on the Exterior to see how it cleans up.

Chev. William

A tip about buying on eBay: If the item is not in the condition as advertised, contact the seller. Even if it was inexpensive...I have often had people give me a partial refund for stuff that was not represented correctly OR sometimes when they offered and I declined with adding that because of the little I paid them ...has created good will. Good will goes a long way on eBay. I have been a customer there since 2001 and have sold a few things. My purchase number is around 2,000. I have never had a negative feedback posted. I have rarely posted a negative feedback. Communicating with the seller after the purchase is key. Almost always resolved.

[Chev. William]

Caught two 1890 type 3 'Front Bolt Housings' on Ebay and bought them via PayPal Credit for Future Projects.
Waiting Now for them to be delivered via mails.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

This was Posted on this Forum as the beginning of another Thread Yesterday:
"
.22 Long Rifle Center Fire

https://www.rccbrass.com/22-long-rif...GeQvhM3g28KXMw
22 Long Rifle Center Fire
We were recently contacted by Dan Hilliard to manufacture a centerfire .22 Long Rifle. With the specs he sent us we now have reloadable .22 Long Rifle cartridges. This idea has been with Dan for quite a while and had tried it using rimfire brass he modified. After several firings the case head would weaken and no longer hold a primer.
So, Dan sent us his specification and we manufactured him his .22 Long Rifle Center Fire cartridges with a small primer pocket and flash hole. He has developed loads capable of propelling a .22” dia. 40 gr. bullet at 1,080 fps with 105 ft.-lbs. of energy at the muzzle.
Roberson Cartridge Company is a custom manufacture of Vintage, Obsolete, Hard to Find and Wildcat calibers."

Also, I received the two '1890 Winchester Front Housings' and they are very nice for their age, with a nice Blued finish.
one fits a Type 3 Bolt nicely but the other does not, it seems to be slightly 'squeezed' at the top left front edge just where the cut is for the slide rod Cover and the lug cut outs are. I believe this is correctable so they will both be useful.
The one that fits properly has a '2659xx' serial with a "B" centered below the number stamping.
The other one has a '2829xx' serial with a much deeper stamped "B" centered below the number.

Chev. William

[scotth]

i could not get the link to work for me see if this one works https://www.rccbrass.com/product/22-long-rifle-center-fire/ am i reading this right $3.25 each for brass

[M-Tecs]

This one should work https://www.rccbrass.com/22-long-rifle-center-fire/?fbclid=IwAR0WNhziIU4ZHkKTstf1FjFJxtcuVVfNITvXshwJ ijtKMGeQvhM3g28KXMw and yes they are $3.25 each. Other than cost the other downside to me is it requires heeled bullets so it works in a standard 22 chamber. I originally posted the link for the folks that load them with Blackpowder. I don't know if the RCC centerfire will have enough volume for the BP folks

[Chev. William]

This one should work https://www.rccbrass.com/22-long-rifle-center-fire/?fbclid=IwAR0WNhziIU4ZHkKTstf1FjFJxtcuVVfNITvXshwJ ijtKMGeQvhM3g28KXMw and yes they are $3.25 each. Other than cost the other downside to me is it requires heeled bullets so it works in a standard 22 chamber. I originally posted the link for the folks that load them with Blackpowder. I don't know if the RCC centerfire will have enough volume for the BP folks

I called RCC and left a Message that they returned today.
Yes the Case Body outside diameter is ~.226", the Same as typical .22LR body Diameter, and they do have a Small Pistol/Rifle Primer Pocket of .175" nominal diameter. From The Discussion I had with the Caller, I gather that the Web and Primer pocket does 'encroach' upon the Internal Powder volume to an extent, reducing the Water volume of the Powder Chamber compared to a typical .22LR RF case. They do believe there is adequate remaining volume to allow loading to at least Transonic muzzle Velocity in typical Rifle barrel lengths of around 20"-22".
I guess Shorter Barrels on Pistols and Revolvers will show slightly Less Velocity.
No idea was given nor asked about BP capacity nor BP Performance, however I personally think a charge of either 4f, or possibly 3f, Swiss or similar BP should give creditable performance with 40 grain Heeled bullets. I do know that a .25ACP case will hold about 5.31 grains weight of 4f Swiss BP under a 50 Grain FMJ bullet.

I would guess the new turned .22LR CF case would hold about 3.5 grains weight of Swiss 4f BP based upon the relative proportions of the two cases.
This is an ESTIMATE ONLY, NOT A TESTED VALUE!!!!!

Also, note the Minimum order quantity from RCC is 50 cases of this .22LR CF case, according to their Web site.
Chev. William

[Shortstack]

What is the bullet mold?

[Chev. William]

Re: Bullet Mold. I have no idea and did not ask RCC about that.
I suspect there are one or two makers that list one or can make one as a custom order.
Old West Molds
NOE molds
come to mind.
Accurate molds does NOT make any with a Cavity Diameter below .260" due to his tooling limits.

Chev. William

[M-Tecs]

These are heeled and the claim is they work in 22 LR also https://northamericanarms.com/shop/parts/cbb3/

[9mmskng]

**** IT, why can’t the mfgs think of stuff this practical & clever! I reload, this cartridge is a no brainer!

[Traffer]

This is how I make swaged, powder coated 22lr bullets. These are to finer specs than commercial bullets. I have found since making this video that the hollow base actually DOES obturate the bullet to conform to the rifling. Much of what I discuss here is actually conjecture believe it to you own peril.
https://youtu.be/eHHK-lLKmMI

[Chev. William]

I got to use my friend's Special Effects Shop machine tools to start work on three swaging die bodies to use Hornady neck sizing bushings as their working ends.
Got the three die bodies bored preparatory to reaming and cutting internal Threads before I ran out of time.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Two, and a Part of the third, die Blank are machined prior to pressing in the Hornady Neck Sizing Bushings.
The die body tops are tapped 1/2-20UNF for possible future accessories.
The die body bottoms are reamed to .4999 inch diameter for the nominal .5000 inch diameter sizing bushings.
The third body is not yet tapped as I 'Slipped' in the process of tapping the second body and bent the adjustable tap handle, putting it out of usable condition.
As I do not have spare funds this late in the Month, I will need to wait until next month to buy a replacement adjustable tap handle to finish the Body tapping.
Also, i cannot find the Hornady sizing bushings I bought earlier, so I may need to purchase more of them.
After pressing in the sizing bushing, I will then machine the Bottom of th edie body to leave a thin tubular section to be hammered and presssed over to lock the bushing in place against case removal forces (I use a punch and hammer to remove the full length swaged down case).

Chev. William

[Traffer]

Two, and a Part of the third, die Blank are machined prior to pressing in the Hornady Neck Sizing Bushings.
The die body tops are tapped 1/2-20UNF for possible future accessories.
The die body bottoms are reamed to .4999 inch diameter for the nominal .5000 inch diameter sizing bushings.
The third body is not yet tapped as I 'Slipped' in the process of tapping the second body and bent the adjustable tap handle, putting it out of usable condition.
As I do not have spare funds this late in the Month, I will need to wait until next month to buy a replacement adjustable tap handle to finish the Body tapping.
Also, i cannot find the Hornady sizing bushings I bought earlier, so I may need to purchase more of them.
After pressing in the sizing bushing, I will then machine the Bottom of th edie body to leave a thin tubular section to be hammered and presssed over to lock the bushing in place against case removal forces (I use a punch and hammer to remove the full length swaged down case).

Chev. William

Sounds like you have developed a very good process there. I like it very much. I may copy some of the ideas you have spoken of. I like the idea of making "holder dies" for pressed in very hard precision forming tools. This would solve some of the difficulties that I encounter making dies from hard bolts. Thanks and keep us posted. Pictures are always nice also.

[Eddie Southgate]

I like it !

[Chev. William]

Nozombies,
It has been a while since you gave us an update on yur development projects, how about one?

As for my own projects, they have gone unattended for the summer as I have been getting back into 7-1/2 inch Gauge/ 2.5 inch to the foot scale model railroading again while my Special Effects Shop owner friend has been very busy in the movie Industry. It seems he is in great demand now that he is one of a very few Holding the qualifications he has in the Union and is licensed by both State and Federal bureaucrats to do his work.

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

Nozombies,
It has been a while sionce you gave us an update on yur development projects, how about one?

As for my own projects, they have gone unattended for the summer as I have been getting back into 7-1/2 inch Gauge/ 2.5 inch to the foot scale model railroading again while my Special Effects Shop owner friend has been very busy in the movie Industry. It seems he is in great demand now that he is one of a very few Holding the qualifications he has in the Union and is licensed by both State and Federal bureaucrats to do his work.

Chev. William

Hi Chev,

I wish I had more to share, but I've been pretty busy with other things... I can say that I've been playing with other powders and loads, and I hope to have a more substantial update at the end of November sometime as I get to wring out some test loads and verify a few things.

The ladybug repeater has accounted for a lot of squirrels in the yard over the last year and a half, and has done so admirably.

Thanks for bumping the thread, I haven't forgotten about it, I just haven't had enough 'play' time!

[Chev. William]

First rainfall of this Fall/Winter/Spring season here last night/this early morning left the Ground wet and the Air smelling of wet Rain. My Patio reloading shop is damp with splashed rain so I will be waiting to dry out again. At least my Patio 'tent' is still intact and no direct rain hit my things.
Primers and Propellants were all stored in Ammo cans with good sealing so not subject to dampness. In Process cases were in plastic MTM cartridge boxes but appear to still be dry as no direct rain hit them.

Otherwise the Air is 'Fresh and Clean and Sparkling' again as the residual fire smoke an dash has been washed from it again.
Dawn was sudden and bright as no residual clouds gave any predawn glow today.
"Oh what a Beautiful Morning . . ."!

Chev. william

[Cary Gunn]

The Ladybug is so dang neat and cute, I can't resist adding my words of praise, even though I'm several months late in so doing.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[Huvius]

Would it be possible to swage a primer pocket into a 22WMR case similar in concept to the old balloon head cartridges of the 19thC?
I ask about the WMR just because I would expect the wall and brass thickness in the head and rim to be a bit more than a standard 22RF.

[Chev. William]

Would it be possible to swage a primer pocket into a 22WMR case similar in concept to the old balloon head cartridges of the 19thC?
I ask about the WMR just because I would expect the wall and brass thickness in the head and rim to be a bit more than a standard 22RF.

Theoretically, it may be possible: to reform fired .22WMR cases with suitable form tools to give a Small Primer pocket to the WMR case.
I believe it would take a base punch to form the pocket into a Form Die/punch run in from the Case mouth.

The base punch would be the diameter and height to match a Small Pistol or Rifle Primer e.g: ~0.175 inch diameter and ~0.131 inch high.

The Form Die/punch would be ~ 224 inch diameter with a pocket in the end ~0.205 inch diameter and ~0.146 inch deep to allow for ~0.015 thick case metal, with a length to reach down to the Base of the fired Case (~1.060 inch or slightly greater) with additional length to allow holding it in proper position and alignment against swaging forces..

There will also need to be provided a means to 'strip' the formed case from both tools as here may be forces involved retaining the formed case on the tools.

Keep in mind the 'rim' of the fired case is the same metal wall thickness as the rest o fthe cae and has a 'space' between the two 'walls' of ~0.015 inch that has the residue of the fired primer in it. This 'Rim' is NOT of sufficient mechanical strength to be used for this 'stripping' purpose with out risk if distortion.

The flash hole still will have to be made.

A possible means to 'strip' the formed case would be to introduce pressure air into the spaces involved via fine center holes in the Base punch and Form Die/punch Tools.

Chev. William

[Traffer]

Would it be possible to swage a primer pocket into a 22WMR case similar in concept to the old balloon head cartridges of the 19thC?
I ask about the WMR just because I would expect the wall and brass thickness in the head and rim to be a bit more than a standard 22RF.
I really don't think so. There is a huge difference in the thickness of centerfire based cartridges and a 22 wmr. The brass on a 22wmr is probably thinner than the primer walls.

[NoZombies]

I really don't think so. There is a huge difference in the thickness of centerfire based cartridges and a 22 wmr. The brass on a 22wmr is probably thinner than the primer walls.

I agree completely. The problem of already too thin brass, would be compounded by the need to anneal the head to move the metal without cracking it, and the fact that the extra material to hold the primer would have to come from the already very thin head leaving you with almost nothing holding the primer in place and the pressure from the load.

With that said, it might be possible to clean .22 WMR brass very well and seat a large pistol primer into the base with a deep crimp above the primer to hold it in place, (it would have to be deep enough to capture the primer's anvil, and the crimp would likely cause the case to fail) even then the CF pin would have to strike with enough force to overcome the resistance of both the rimfire brass, and the primer cup to ignite the priming compound. S06uch an arrangement would make the brass single use anyways, negating many of the benefits of the reloadability.

My statements are all theoretical and not based on experimentation, but the physics are such that I don't think I'd bother trying myself. I don't say that to discourage some enterprising soul from doing so, but if you're going to, go into the experiment with the knowledge that there are at least some pretty good reasons to expect limited success.

[Chev. William]

More thoughts on making .22WMR or .22WRF cases into 'Balloon Head' type reloadable cases.

1. The .015" thick base wall of the two RF cases would definitely thinned some more by the Drawing process needed to form the pocket from the 'Flat Disk" of the cartridge base.
2. There is also the possibility of pulling the rim in to provide metal to the drawn pocket.
3. A possible remedy would be to insert a 'drawn cup' of cartridge brass or Copper into the RF case before the pocket is formed, to reinforce the base and Pocket when it is formed.
4. The reinforcement might be preformed with a rim edge that reaches up the sides of the RF case some distance, perhaps .130" to .140" to aid in friction and sealing. Perhaps a suitable Gas Check might serve as the reinforcing cup.
5. Another thought is to add solder to the inside rim area to reinforce it against crushing.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

December 24th Evening, Christmas Eve, and a Wish for all to have a Very Merry Christmas and enjoy a Great New Year!

Chev. William

[Mk42gunner]

I'm back after taking a year off to take care of Mom after she had a stroke and issues with dementia. She finally got so bad I couldn't take care of her at home so now she is in a nursing home and doing quite well, relatively speaking.

Made some progress on my .22 Ladybug project-- I bought a thirty cal ammo can close to half full of once fired .25 ACP brass for $30.00. That should be enough brass to set me up for life.

If nothing else I have wanted a .25 ACP rifle for a long time.

Now to find the 10-22 take off brrel that I know I have hiding around here somewhere.

Robert

[KennyT]

Hey Nozombies,

Any updates to the .22 Ladybug project? Really interested in this wildcat, I have a couple of old bolt action .22s that I think would be easy conversions.

Kenny

[NoZombies]

Hey Nozombies,

Any updates to the .22 Ladybug project? Really interested in this wildcat, I have a couple of old bolt action .22s that I think would be easy conversions.

Kenny

Not as much progress as I'd like... Too many irons in the fire at the moment I'm afraid.

I'm hoping that around the end of March I might have a little more time for such fun projects!

[Alferd Packer]

That's a good thought, I'll see if I have some SP mag primers to try out.

The bullets stopped at various places in the bore, and pushed out with little force. I was testing in a 16.25" barrel. In a 7" barrel they work fine, but aren't moving very fast.

Have you thought of a piece of round lead shot fired with a primer.
The nearest size or the nearest larger size shot run in a sizing die to fit?
The round ball shot has always been lighter than a conical, but has been easier to blow clear of a barrel with just a primer.
Also the round ball is always accurate and strikes with a force all out of proportion to its light weight.

[KennyT]

Nozombies,

I understand to many irons in the fire. I am fixing to remove a couple my self so will have some spare time to fill. Can I correspond via PM with questions about the equipment you used and the process?
Thanks,

KennyT

[NoZombies]

Have you thought of a piece of round lead shot fired with a primer.
The nearest size or the nearest larger size shot run in a sizing die to fit?
The round ball shot has always been lighter than a conical, but has been easier to blow clear of a barrel with just a primer.
Also the round ball is always accurate and strikes with a force all out of proportion to its light weight.

Unfortunately I don't have a .225 RB mold. I've tried a few other things like airgun pellets, but nothing that really gave good results. The skirts tend to blow off the pellets leaving them with erratic flight and poor grouping. The little 25 grain WC's are accurate, and 1/2 grain of powder isn't gonna break the bank.

When I have more time for the project I might spend a little more time playing with other things though.


Nozombies,

I understand to many irons in the fire. I am fixing to remove a couple my self so will have some spare time to fill. Can I correspond via PM with questions about the equipment you used and the process?
Thanks,

KennyT

No problem, drop me a PM.

[303Guy]

More thoughts on making .22WMR or .22WRF cases into 'Balloon Head' type reloadable cases.

1. The .015" thick base wall of the two RF cases would definitely thinned some more by the Drawing process needed to form the pocket from the 'Flat Disk" of the cartridge base.
2. There is also the possibility of pulling the rim in to provide metal to the drawn pocket.
3. A possible remedy would be to insert a 'drawn cut' of cartridge brass or Copper into the RF case before the pocket is formed, to reinforce the base and Pocket when it is formed.
4. The reinforcement might be preformed with a rim edge that reaches up the sides of the RF case some distance, perhaps .130" to .140" to aid in friction and sealing. Perhaps a suitable Gas Check might serve as the reinforcing cup.
5. Another thought is to add solder to the inside rim area to reinforce it against crushing.

Chev. William
Shotgun primers should work. They are pretty much self contained, complete with rim. It should be easy enough to adapt a rimfire case to take them.

[Chev. William]

May 10th and nice weather out is hampered by Covid-19/SARS-CovD-2 'Sheltger in Place' edicts inmy State, County, and City imposed by the various Politicians but ignored by the same Politicians and their families and staffs.

My dogs and i sneak out to see the sun in my back yard but it just is not FREEDOM!

May all enjoy this Mother's Day Weekend,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Now June 7th, noted as a day of continuing protests made possible bu those who Fought their way across the beaches of Normandy back in 1944 and then continued to finally defeat Hitler's Regime and dream of World Conquest.

California is mostly still in 'lock-down' from the Edicts about Covis-19, not enforced against the night riots nor the day protests for some reason, yet being enforced in store that are open for business.

Chev. William

[deltaenterprizes]

Have you thought of a piece of round lead shot fired with a primer.
The nearest size or the nearest larger size shot run in a sizing die to fit?
The round ball shot has always been lighter than a conical, but has been easier to blow clear of a barrel with just a primer.
Also the round ball is always accurate and strikes with a force all out of proportion to its light weight.
I am using 22 cal pellets with a small pistol primer to test fire my Ladybug rifle, about as loud as a pellet rifle, not as quiet as a 22 Colibri that I was hoping for!

[griecke]

Are there chambering reamers available for rent for this cartridge?

I've been thinking about just necking the 25 ACP down to 22 caliber for quite a while but I like this idea better.

[Chev. William]

Are there chambering reamers available for rent for this cartridge?

I've been thinking about just necking the 25 ACP down to 22 caliber for quite a while but I like this idea better.

I believe the Original Poster of this thread stated he used Chucking reamers to cut his chamber and to make his reloading dies.

If I remember correctly, he said he cut his chambers to ,252 inch diameter and his reloading dies to about ,250 inch diameter.

this would allow the cases ,002 inch expansion on firing to release the bullet.

Chev, William

[Loot]

read the entire thread with interest. most is over my head. but I did see an interesting video on youtube that you might find interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-NjybCv9nA